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Hello and welcome to Dateline Scotland from the Scottish | :00:31. | :00:32. | |
We're devoting this weekend's programme to the implications | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
of this week's vote on Scottish independence ` the implications | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
for Scotland, for the rest of the United Kingdom, and for | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
Kevin McKenna from the Observer ` Kevin voted YES in the referendum. | :00:41. | :00:49. | |
Catherine MacLeod of the Herald newspaper ` | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
Catherine used to work for Alistair Darling who led the No campaign. | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
Celia Maza de Pablo of Spain's La Razonand Ian Martin | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
Good to see you. Will this result be seen as What David Cameron said was | :01:02. | :01:20. | |
the settled will of the Scottish people? I think he is being | :01:21. | :01:30. | |
optimistic. The 45% vote in favour of Yes, the fact that 1.3 million | :01:31. | :01:41. | |
people voted vot, and we believe that 37% of Labour voter voted Yes. | :01:42. | :01:50. | |
The issue of these devolved powers is already unravelling. The West | :01:51. | :02:03. | |
Lothian Question... What Scottish MPs can vote for in Westminster? All | :02:04. | :02:12. | |
that together says this is anything but the settled will. Some more used | :02:13. | :02:26. | |
to go. `` years to go. The SN will probably be ripped on. If that | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
extends to the leadership, although feeble fume about, together, it | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
could be a mandate for another referendum. Gordon Brown has been | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
saying, we have got to get on with this. He is thinking, we could have | :02:45. | :02:55. | |
a new British Government, it could change politics completely? I think | :02:56. | :03:08. | |
it depends on what they do next. I think what we saw in Scotland was | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
that people feel very disenfranchised from the political | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
process. Many of these 1.6 million people who don't thought Yes were | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
voting for a better government. As the parties respond, throughout the | :03:23. | :03:32. | |
United Kingdom, I think we will possibly see the, otherwise some | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
unrest in Scotland. 55 miles away from Westminster fume just as it | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
were needed as they do in Scotland. It is up to them to listen. | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
Coded using this will go down in the rest of the UK, because David | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
Cameron has signed up to the vowel, the promise to move ahead with | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
things, but he has also said we have got to change things in England. `` | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
how do you think this will go down. He has people breathing down his | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
neck. I think devolution is coming. I think that's certain. I think | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
Kevin is wrong. The Nationalists and Alex Salmond and his friends are | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
very skilled at trying to turn what is a defeat into a victory, to try | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
and push this instantly onto the question of more powers. Alex | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
Salmond has wanted this question about Scottish independence put to | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
the Scottish people the decades. He presumed dead has always said that | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
Scotland would grab its freedom, its liberation. `` for decades. There | :04:40. | :04:47. | |
was a strong, clear vote, 55 against 45. `` as he has always said. People | :04:48. | :04:58. | |
shouldn't now allow the Nationalists to miss make and rewrite history. | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
More powers. What is clear is that they are coming. I'm sceptical that | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
front. I was a sceptic about devolution in the first place. I | :05:09. | :05:10. | |
thought it would lead to a referendum. But David Cameron is | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
very clear, and I expect will be more in the Devo Max camp. The | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
ultimate amount you could possibly give while retaining UK structures. | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
Yes. I think he and George Osborne will be, as well. The Lib Dems are | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
in coalition and will be pushing in that direction. The party is | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
isolated on both sides of the border. It's in real trouble, the | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
Labour Party. We will come to that. Celia Maza, you said your newspaper | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
readers in Spain have had huge appetite for this. How much have you | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
been writing and how much is the paper been carrying? People have | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
been crazy about this. They became interested. There has been talk of | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
holding a referendum in November for Catalonia. They see this as an | :06:02. | :06:10. | |
example. They don't think the Catalonian government will win with | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
what is proposed. These days, you can find hundreds of different media | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
coming from Spain. Every newspaper have around ten pages per day, | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
because it is so interesting. Ten pages a day? That is huge. Yes, ten | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
pages of interviews. What has happened is important. The Scottish | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
referendum will be seen as an example. It is bad news for the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
Catalonian government. In terms of the SNP, Alex Salmond has gone, one | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
of the biggest figures in politics in Western Europe, everybody would | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
generally agree with that. But what is the point of a national party | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
when the national question, at least at the ballot box, does appear to be | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
settled at the ballot box? I had a quick phone around to my nationalist | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
friends in the last 48 hours. It's a good question. But I think the | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
question is more pertinent if there had been a yes vote. There are | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
people I know who become disenchanted with Labour. They have | :07:22. | :07:30. | |
come late to the SNP, well, at least, round to voting yes. They | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
feel distinctly uncomfortable voting for a party that included the word | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
nationalist in its title in an independent Scotland. I think there | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
was also some wisdom within the party, certainly some initial chat | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
about even changing the name of the party if it had been a yes vote to | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
something like the Scottish Democrats. That itself could have | :07:56. | :08:04. | |
led to something. Over the past five years, the history of the SNP has | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
been one of civil war, infighting, allsorts of different factions. Left | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
and right is one simply the case in. It was part of Alex Salmond's | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
achievement that he unified them. There was a glimpse at the chalice, | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
the holy grail of independence just coming over the horizon. I suspected | :08:27. | :08:36. | |
there might be a bit of turbulence in the waters. What do the rest of | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
you make of it? There is turbulence everywhere. Ed Miliband has huge | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
challenges. David Cameron has the UK breathing down its `` his neck. | :08:45. | :08:58. | |
If... We have heard a lot from Nicola Sturgeon, presenting this | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
vision of a new Scotland, a socially just Scotland, a Scotland with more | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
people equal, they now have a chance to prove it. Perhaps they can get on | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
with it. Perhaps they can sort out the Labour Party and help them in | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
their quest. They've tried very hard to get the labour support into the | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
party. Nationalism would always transcend and be more important than | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
anything else, and there is a problem. What is the point of the | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
SNP, why don't they get behind the other parties who are actually going | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
to be in power? The dilemma for the Labour Party, in England and | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
Scotland, the Labour Party is the party of devolution, they introduced | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
it in 1970s, trying to kill Scotland nationalism dead. It now a massive | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
problem. It doesn't want to agreed to Devo Max `` agree. It would be a | :09:53. | :10:03. | |
move to stopping this power. And most voters won't like it. One of | :10:04. | :10:12. | |
the leading intellectuals, Phillip blond, has suggested that you get | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
around some of these questions if you devolve power to big English | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
cities. If they have the powers that would be a good thing anyway. It | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
doesn't work for a simple reason. I think it will happen anyway. English | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
cities will get powers similar to what London has got, Manchester, | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, and the rest of it, but some things will be | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
effectively English laws. On divorce, justice, English health and | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
education. On all those areas, it isn't conceivable that England, | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
English voters, will allow the health system and legislation to be | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
subdivided into regions. There will have to be somewhere where it is | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
voted on. So much has changed in the last couple of weeks. English voters | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
will take it as read that some sort of protocol has to be established, | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
and some new way of working in the `` working the UK so everybody gets | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
what they want and they have their say. This is important. Scotland has | :11:14. | :11:22. | |
said no to independence, but this is known for change. But there will be | :11:23. | :11:31. | |
change. `` no for change. This reminds me so much of the Spanish | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
situation. The fact that the government is going to deal with | :11:36. | :11:43. | |
this Devo Max, it is going to be a big scenario to see how the | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
government in Spain can deal with the problems we have in Spain. The | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
Catalan situation is the only problem for the government of Spain. | :11:59. | :12:09. | |
If we see it here in the UK, that Scotland is going to have more | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
devolution powers, maybe in the future, if the Catalans have more | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
devolution, with what is going on in the Basque country, the Pelissier | :12:21. | :12:36. | |
and `` Galicians etc. That is interesting. Because we think of our | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
UK as unique. But different parts of Spain have been together the many | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
years, and that's very important. One thing that has come up | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
constantly, and I suspect it is reflected in Spain, in local areas | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
like Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, if things go right they say | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
they are doing it themselves, if things go wrong they blame it on the | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
bad people in Westminster. There is something in that with the | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
disenchantment of Westminster. Is that the same feeling in Spain that | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
Madrid doesn't understand the problems? Yes. Exactly. The Catalan | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
government want independence. If they don't have it in the future, of | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
course they are going to ask for more powers. The problem is that now | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
the Catalan government is in the spotlight. But what happens if they | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
have more powers? The Basque country is going to be the next. And then | :13:33. | :13:45. | |
maybe the Galician government. In Pelissier it is the same party as | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
the one in government. `` Galicia. But it is not just focused in | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
Catalunya. The Conservatives are offering the idea Rob more | :14:00. | :14:11. | |
responsibility `` of more. One of the negative aspects of nationalism | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
over the years, not just nationalism actually, it might just be a | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
Scottish trait, is if things go wrong we blame Westminster. One | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
example we've had of that recently has been the mushrooming of food | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
banks. Especially in the West of Scotland, but all over. Many of the | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
people using these in an affluent country, we ought to be asking | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
questions as to why that's happening. But to say that has come | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
about because of Westminster big government, everybody saying the | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
Tories are wrong, since 1999 Scotland has had sufficient devolve | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
powers to do something about the root causes as to why people are | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
turning to food banks in these numbers. It isn't Scotland being | :14:59. | :15:07. | |
picked on, the food banks in Liverpool, the West Country. But | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
this is a societal problem. Which leads me on to something else. There | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
is a division in Scotland. It has been shown by the result of the | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
referendum. The four counties who voted yes, they display the worst | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
instances of social deprivation. Glass go, Dundee, etc. `` Glasgow. | :15:32. | :15:41. | |
Whether it is a good narrative, or a `1, that narrative is going to | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
underpin Scottish politics over the next few years. `` or a negative | :15:45. | :15:54. | |
narrative. Glasgow is the biggest local authority with the most | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
schools `` social problems. What there was a smaller turnout. `` but | :16:01. | :16:09. | |
there was a smaller turnout. This will be a narrative apart from what | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
happens in Westminster. And it's a major problem for the Labour Party. | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
If those figures are correct, 37% of Labour voters voting yes, then that | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
spells a massive problem for Labour in Scotland. And also possibly for | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
the 41 Labour MPs. Ed Miliband is relying on them. And they said they | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
should not vote on the issues. I thought everybody was focused on | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
young voters, and Glasgow voting yes, but look at the enormous | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
numbers in, for want of a better word, Middle Scotland who turned up. | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
Aberdeenshire, Edinburgh, absolutely massive numbers in favour of the | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
union. I was on one of the many campaign trips, and I was getting | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
depressed about the question of divided Scotland. Would Scotland | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
emerge from this? People saying that it would be a really bad thing | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
because it would be a divided country. Somebody told me to | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
remember that Scotland was reunited in the 1850s. After all of the inn | :17:18. | :17:33. | |
clan fighting. `` in`clan fighting. There are some people who are very | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
poor and alienated from society. I think it's the same in England. I | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
don't know what you think there can't be more devolution in England | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
with all of the different cities. If 5 million people cannot look after | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
their own affairs, the English government could default more powers | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
to local areas in England, and that is the only way. We've seen it in | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
Scotland. 90% of the population in some places going out to vote | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
because it was an issue on which people cared about. There is no | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
difference between the parties, people said, it is now up to the | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
politicians to show that there is a difference but it has got to be more | :18:15. | :18:25. | |
local than it is at the moment. I think that can and will happen. But | :18:26. | :18:34. | |
even once that is done, lows will affect England. England as the | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
country. It cannot be, for the convenience of the Labour Party, | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
dismembered. Just because it poses some different and difficult | :18:46. | :18:54. | |
questions. I think it could be about foreign affairs, defence, that we | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
need a British Government. But other things could be devolved. The | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
overall funding for hill fog, how much we would be prepared to put | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
into it, that is something that does affect every part. They have been | :19:11. | :19:27. | |
able to say that they had local control, but they do not set the | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
overall budget? The Chancellor of the Exchequer can set it. Somebody | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
weathering and Plymouth, Newcastle, they are not going to accept, for | :19:40. | :19:48. | |
one second, the idea that the health service would be fragmented. Some | :19:49. | :19:56. | |
were, but an English MP has to vote on it. My question is that the | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
timing, the taming that we have at the moment, it is so important. The | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
general election any few months. David Cameron may be trying to | :20:11. | :20:25. | |
lessen West to the MPs in England. `` listen less. Obviously, he has to | :20:26. | :20:38. | |
defend the party. We have had this vow from the parties, but now it | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
competitive election? The taming is so important. Sorry to go back to | :20:46. | :20:57. | |
the Spanish situation... But Catalunia is different. The main | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
government in Spain are not allowing them to hold a referendum. I think | :21:05. | :21:13. | |
it is very important to see, the Catalan government would like to | :21:14. | :21:23. | |
hold a referendum, and know in real legal terms. Three main questions. | :21:24. | :21:34. | |
The Catalan government has no absolute majority. The second one, | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
it is so important, the party of the Catalan is divided, equal listen. `` | :21:40. | :21:53. | |
a coalition. And they say that they have the right to hold referendums | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
about Catalan edges. But it is about Spain. I want to talk about some | :21:58. | :22:09. | |
other things. The opinion poll switch changed everything. Do we | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
have opinion polls changing the course of elections? If we do not | :22:14. | :22:21. | |
have the opinion polls, you would not have possibly had David | :22:22. | :22:32. | |
Cameron,". `` Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband coming up? Italy can fight | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
the campaign and days the British establishment the equivalent of a | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
heart attack. People should not run away. I think if you had held it | :22:44. | :22:52. | |
together, the three different parties, I think that the union was | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
going to win. But one of these opinion polls, it gives them the | :22:59. | :23:07. | |
lead, it transformed the last ten days. David Cameron flew. Gordon | :23:08. | :23:17. | |
Brown stepped up. Some people said to me, why did it take David Cameron | :23:18. | :23:25. | |
so long? I am not so sure. I am not sure that made much difference. If | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
you look at the figures of the elderly... More than 70% voted no. I | :23:33. | :23:45. | |
was hearing was due, friends, family, people were very skilled | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
about pensions. `` was hearing last year. Long before the three amigos | :23:51. | :24:02. | |
coming over the border. I am sure it had an electrifying impact. But for | :24:03. | :24:11. | |
every person, they may have thought it was oppresive, it was not what | :24:12. | :24:21. | |
the price of the Daily Record in which it was printed... It may have | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
had a negative impact. They said that nothing changed. The | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
Westminster establishment, and the fact, they have woken up to the | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
fact, but generally, I think Ed Miliband and David Cameron should | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
have been in Scotland much more often. David Cameron as the Prime | :24:46. | :24:54. | |
Minister of the United Kingdom. The consequences for all the parties, | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
that is very important. One Labour, I think Ed Miliband is one of the | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
biggest losers. It is going to be interesting to see the reaction. | :25:05. | :25:13. | |
That is happening. David Cameron is often criticised, but here's the | :25:14. | :25:23. | |
great escape artist. `` he is a. Done it again. I think he emerges in | :25:24. | :25:37. | |
a strong position. Labour weakened. The other person who should not be | :25:38. | :25:46. | |
forgotten as Alex Salmond. One of the giants of his age. If you would | :25:47. | :25:55. | |
add real the Nationalists were, the Labour establishment was prepared to | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
defend evolution. `` look at where the nationalists were. That's it for | :26:02. | :26:09. | |
this special edition of Dateline Scotland from Edinburgh. We'll be | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
back again next week at the same time, and you can comment on the | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
programme on Twitter ` @GavinEsler, using #Dateline. Goodbye. | :26:18. | :26:23. |