20/09/2014 Dateline London


20/09/2014

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Hello and welcome to Dateline Scotland from the Scottish

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We're devoting this weekend's programme to the implications

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of this week's vote on Scottish independence ` the implications

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for Scotland, for the rest of the United Kingdom, and for

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Kevin McKenna from the Observer ` Kevin voted YES in the referendum.

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Catherine MacLeod of the Herald newspaper `

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Catherine used to work for Alistair Darling who led the No campaign.

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Celia Maza de Pablo of Spain's La Razonand Ian Martin

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Good to see you. Will this result be seen as What David Cameron said was

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the settled will of the Scottish people? I think he is being

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optimistic. The 45% vote in favour of Yes, the fact that 1.3 million

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people voted vot, and we believe that 37% of Labour voter voted Yes.

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The issue of these devolved powers is already unravelling. The West

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Lothian Question... What Scottish MPs can vote for in Westminster? All

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that together says this is anything but the settled will. Some more used

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to go. `` years to go. The SN will probably be ripped on. If that

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extends to the leadership, although feeble fume about, together, it

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could be a mandate for another referendum. Gordon Brown has been

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saying, we have got to get on with this. He is thinking, we could have

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a new British Government, it could change politics completely? I think

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it depends on what they do next. I think what we saw in Scotland was

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that people feel very disenfranchised from the political

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process. Many of these 1.6 million people who don't thought Yes were

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voting for a better government. As the parties respond, throughout the

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United Kingdom, I think we will possibly see the, otherwise some

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unrest in Scotland. 55 miles away from Westminster fume just as it

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were needed as they do in Scotland. It is up to them to listen.

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Coded using this will go down in the rest of the UK, because David

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Cameron has signed up to the vowel, the promise to move ahead with

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things, but he has also said we have got to change things in England. ``

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how do you think this will go down. He has people breathing down his

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neck. I think devolution is coming. I think that's certain. I think

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Kevin is wrong. The Nationalists and Alex Salmond and his friends are

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very skilled at trying to turn what is a defeat into a victory, to try

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and push this instantly onto the question of more powers. Alex

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Salmond has wanted this question about Scottish independence put to

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the Scottish people the decades. He presumed dead has always said that

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Scotland would grab its freedom, its liberation. `` for decades. There

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was a strong, clear vote, 55 against 45. `` as he has always said. People

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shouldn't now allow the Nationalists to miss make and rewrite history.

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More powers. What is clear is that they are coming. I'm sceptical that

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front. I was a sceptic about devolution in the first place. I

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thought it would lead to a referendum. But David Cameron is

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very clear, and I expect will be more in the Devo Max camp. The

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ultimate amount you could possibly give while retaining UK structures.

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Yes. I think he and George Osborne will be, as well. The Lib Dems are

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in coalition and will be pushing in that direction. The party is

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isolated on both sides of the border. It's in real trouble, the

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Labour Party. We will come to that. Celia Maza, you said your newspaper

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readers in Spain have had huge appetite for this. How much have you

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been writing and how much is the paper been carrying? People have

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been crazy about this. They became interested. There has been talk of

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holding a referendum in November for Catalonia. They see this as an

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example. They don't think the Catalonian government will win with

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what is proposed. These days, you can find hundreds of different media

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coming from Spain. Every newspaper have around ten pages per day,

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because it is so interesting. Ten pages a day? That is huge. Yes, ten

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pages of interviews. What has happened is important. The Scottish

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referendum will be seen as an example. It is bad news for the

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Catalonian government. In terms of the SNP, Alex Salmond has gone, one

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of the biggest figures in politics in Western Europe, everybody would

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generally agree with that. But what is the point of a national party

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when the national question, at least at the ballot box, does appear to be

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settled at the ballot box? I had a quick phone around to my nationalist

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friends in the last 48 hours. It's a good question. But I think the

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question is more pertinent if there had been a yes vote. There are

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people I know who become disenchanted with Labour. They have

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come late to the SNP, well, at least, round to voting yes. They

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feel distinctly uncomfortable voting for a party that included the word

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nationalist in its title in an independent Scotland. I think there

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was also some wisdom within the party, certainly some initial chat

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about even changing the name of the party if it had been a yes vote to

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something like the Scottish Democrats. That itself could have

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led to something. Over the past five years, the history of the SNP has

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been one of civil war, infighting, allsorts of different factions. Left

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and right is one simply the case in. It was part of Alex Salmond's

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achievement that he unified them. There was a glimpse at the chalice,

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the holy grail of independence just coming over the horizon. I suspected

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there might be a bit of turbulence in the waters. What do the rest of

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you make of it? There is turbulence everywhere. Ed Miliband has huge

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challenges. David Cameron has the UK breathing down its `` his neck.

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If... We have heard a lot from Nicola Sturgeon, presenting this

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vision of a new Scotland, a socially just Scotland, a Scotland with more

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people equal, they now have a chance to prove it. Perhaps they can get on

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with it. Perhaps they can sort out the Labour Party and help them in

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their quest. They've tried very hard to get the labour support into the

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party. Nationalism would always transcend and be more important than

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anything else, and there is a problem. What is the point of the

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SNP, why don't they get behind the other parties who are actually going

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to be in power? The dilemma for the Labour Party, in England and

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Scotland, the Labour Party is the party of devolution, they introduced

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it in 1970s, trying to kill Scotland nationalism dead. It now a massive

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problem. It doesn't want to agreed to Devo Max `` agree. It would be a

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move to stopping this power. And most voters won't like it. One of

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the leading intellectuals, Phillip blond, has suggested that you get

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around some of these questions if you devolve power to big English

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cities. If they have the powers that would be a good thing anyway. It

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doesn't work for a simple reason. I think it will happen anyway. English

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cities will get powers similar to what London has got, Manchester,

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Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, and the rest of it, but some things will be

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effectively English laws. On divorce, justice, English health and

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education. On all those areas, it isn't conceivable that England,

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English voters, will allow the health system and legislation to be

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subdivided into regions. There will have to be somewhere where it is

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voted on. So much has changed in the last couple of weeks. English voters

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will take it as read that some sort of protocol has to be established,

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and some new way of working in the `` working the UK so everybody gets

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what they want and they have their say. This is important. Scotland has

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said no to independence, but this is known for change. But there will be

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change. `` no for change. This reminds me so much of the Spanish

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situation. The fact that the government is going to deal with

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this Devo Max, it is going to be a big scenario to see how the

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government in Spain can deal with the problems we have in Spain. The

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Catalan situation is the only problem for the government of Spain.

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If we see it here in the UK, that Scotland is going to have more

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devolution powers, maybe in the future, if the Catalans have more

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devolution, with what is going on in the Basque country, the Pelissier

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and `` Galicians etc. That is interesting. Because we think of our

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UK as unique. But different parts of Spain have been together the many

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years, and that's very important. One thing that has come up

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constantly, and I suspect it is reflected in Spain, in local areas

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like Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, if things go right they say

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they are doing it themselves, if things go wrong they blame it on the

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bad people in Westminster. There is something in that with the

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disenchantment of Westminster. Is that the same feeling in Spain that

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Madrid doesn't understand the problems? Yes. Exactly. The Catalan

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government want independence. If they don't have it in the future, of

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course they are going to ask for more powers. The problem is that now

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the Catalan government is in the spotlight. But what happens if they

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have more powers? The Basque country is going to be the next. And then

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maybe the Galician government. In Pelissier it is the same party as

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the one in government. `` Galicia. But it is not just focused in

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Catalunya. The Conservatives are offering the idea Rob more

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responsibility `` of more. One of the negative aspects of nationalism

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over the years, not just nationalism actually, it might just be a

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Scottish trait, is if things go wrong we blame Westminster. One

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example we've had of that recently has been the mushrooming of food

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banks. Especially in the West of Scotland, but all over. Many of the

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people using these in an affluent country, we ought to be asking

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questions as to why that's happening. But to say that has come

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about because of Westminster big government, everybody saying the

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Tories are wrong, since 1999 Scotland has had sufficient devolve

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powers to do something about the root causes as to why people are

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turning to food banks in these numbers. It isn't Scotland being

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picked on, the food banks in Liverpool, the West Country. But

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this is a societal problem. Which leads me on to something else. There

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is a division in Scotland. It has been shown by the result of the

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referendum. The four counties who voted yes, they display the worst

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instances of social deprivation. Glass go, Dundee, etc. `` Glasgow.

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Whether it is a good narrative, or a `1, that narrative is going to

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underpin Scottish politics over the next few years. `` or a negative

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narrative. Glasgow is the biggest local authority with the most

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schools `` social problems. What there was a smaller turnout. `` but

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there was a smaller turnout. This will be a narrative apart from what

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happens in Westminster. And it's a major problem for the Labour Party.

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If those figures are correct, 37% of Labour voters voting yes, then that

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spells a massive problem for Labour in Scotland. And also possibly for

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the 41 Labour MPs. Ed Miliband is relying on them. And they said they

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should not vote on the issues. I thought everybody was focused on

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young voters, and Glasgow voting yes, but look at the enormous

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numbers in, for want of a better word, Middle Scotland who turned up.

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Aberdeenshire, Edinburgh, absolutely massive numbers in favour of the

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union. I was on one of the many campaign trips, and I was getting

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depressed about the question of divided Scotland. Would Scotland

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emerge from this? People saying that it would be a really bad thing

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because it would be a divided country. Somebody told me to

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remember that Scotland was reunited in the 1850s. After all of the inn

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clan fighting. `` in`clan fighting. There are some people who are very

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poor and alienated from society. I think it's the same in England. I

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don't know what you think there can't be more devolution in England

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with all of the different cities. If 5 million people cannot look after

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their own affairs, the English government could default more powers

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to local areas in England, and that is the only way. We've seen it in

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Scotland. 90% of the population in some places going out to vote

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because it was an issue on which people cared about. There is no

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difference between the parties, people said, it is now up to the

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politicians to show that there is a difference but it has got to be more

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local than it is at the moment. I think that can and will happen. But

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even once that is done, lows will affect England. England as the

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country. It cannot be, for the convenience of the Labour Party,

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dismembered. Just because it poses some different and difficult

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questions. I think it could be about foreign affairs, defence, that we

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need a British Government. But other things could be devolved. The

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overall funding for hill fog, how much we would be prepared to put

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into it, that is something that does affect every part. They have been

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able to say that they had local control, but they do not set the

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overall budget? The Chancellor of the Exchequer can set it. Somebody

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weathering and Plymouth, Newcastle, they are not going to accept, for

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one second, the idea that the health service would be fragmented. Some

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were, but an English MP has to vote on it. My question is that the

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timing, the taming that we have at the moment, it is so important. The

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general election any few months. David Cameron may be trying to

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lessen West to the MPs in England. `` listen less. Obviously, he has to

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defend the party. We have had this vow from the parties, but now it

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competitive election? The taming is so important. Sorry to go back to

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the Spanish situation... But Catalunia is different. The main

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government in Spain are not allowing them to hold a referendum. I think

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it is very important to see, the Catalan government would like to

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hold a referendum, and know in real legal terms. Three main questions.

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The Catalan government has no absolute majority. The second one,

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it is so important, the party of the Catalan is divided, equal listen. ``

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a coalition. And they say that they have the right to hold referendums

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about Catalan edges. But it is about Spain. I want to talk about some

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other things. The opinion poll switch changed everything. Do we

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have opinion polls changing the course of elections? If we do not

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have the opinion polls, you would not have possibly had David

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Cameron,". `` Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband coming up? Italy can fight

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the campaign and days the British establishment the equivalent of a

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heart attack. People should not run away. I think if you had held it

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together, the three different parties, I think that the union was

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going to win. But one of these opinion polls, it gives them the

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lead, it transformed the last ten days. David Cameron flew. Gordon

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Brown stepped up. Some people said to me, why did it take David Cameron

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so long? I am not so sure. I am not sure that made much difference. If

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you look at the figures of the elderly... More than 70% voted no. I

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was hearing was due, friends, family, people were very skilled

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about pensions. `` was hearing last year. Long before the three amigos

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coming over the border. I am sure it had an electrifying impact. But for

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every person, they may have thought it was oppresive, it was not what

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the price of the Daily Record in which it was printed... It may have

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had a negative impact. They said that nothing changed. The

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Westminster establishment, and the fact, they have woken up to the

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fact, but generally, I think Ed Miliband and David Cameron should

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have been in Scotland much more often. David Cameron as the Prime

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Minister of the United Kingdom. The consequences for all the parties,

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that is very important. One Labour, I think Ed Miliband is one of the

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biggest losers. It is going to be interesting to see the reaction.

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That is happening. David Cameron is often criticised, but here's the

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great escape artist. `` he is a. Done it again. I think he emerges in

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a strong position. Labour weakened. The other person who should not be

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forgotten as Alex Salmond. One of the giants of his age. If you would

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add real the Nationalists were, the Labour establishment was prepared to

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defend evolution. `` look at where the nationalists were. That's it for

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this special edition of Dateline Scotland from Edinburgh. We'll be

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back again next week at the same time, and you can comment on the

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programme on Twitter ` @GavinEsler, using #Dateline. Goodbye.

:26:18.:26:23.

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