Browse content similar to 20/08/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Dateline London. | :00:24. | :00:33. | |
The jailing of a British notorious recruiter for Islamic extremism. | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
India - Pakistan - and the constant battle over | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
Plus: Donald Trump shakes up his campaign yet again. | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
My guests today are: Mina al Oraibi a writer on Arab affairs. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Jef McAllister who is an American writer and broadcaster. | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
Ashis Ray of Ray Media and Adam Raphael who is | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Anjem Choudary has for years been one of the most | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
despised people in Britain - a foghorn voice stirring | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
up some young Muslims to fight for Islamic State | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
and outraging many more Muslims and non Muslims with the fact | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
that he got away with it for so long. | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
For two decades he managed to just stay with and the law now he has | :01:17. | :01:29. | |
been jailed. If I can start with you, Mina. Anjem Choudary, totally | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
notorious. What is your reaction. The reaction from many people is | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
finalised. This should have happened many years ago. He has used | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
loopholes in the British legal system knowing when he could say | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
things that would still rile up people but not get them in trouble | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
what the law. He has recently used technology and his Twitter account | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
was even live the day he was convicted. He is part of a wider | :02:04. | :02:14. | |
network of people who are preachers of hate. Rather than on Islamic | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
pictures they are preachers of hate and they are dividing society more | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
and more. -- Islamic preachers of hate. So in some sense this is | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
significant but in another way it is troubling because now he is | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
imprisoned there are some concerns he can buy that allows people would | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
then prison and maintain some networks outside of prison. It is | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
important this does not become a place for him to continue his | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
network in some way or tried to look like a martyr. You how great is that | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
danger? I think it is great and the prison authorities will have to take | :02:56. | :02:56. | |
steps to stop this. One must remember the Charlie Hebdo murderers | :02:57. | :03:10. | |
were radicalised and present by a similar character. I am critical of | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
British Government for allowing him to preach for so long. Yes, it was | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
within the law but the law this directive and the difficulty is a | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
balancing free speech and the ability to control people like that | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
and I believe we have drawn the line in the wrong place. While | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
acknowledging the importance of free speech but judge did not allow | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
someone like him to go on reaching this for more than a decade. With | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
the internet, his words and pictures, some of them are still | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
available online. It is very difficult as if it is not him if it | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
to somebody else. The weekly internet works and the way people | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
can find things -- the way the internet works. And these can | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
reinforce these views. An interesting study showed most people | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
who were arrested for terrorist offences in this country or working | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
in the Prevent programme on the verge of it's still the personal | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
contact on their way to radicalisation. It is not just | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
something you do with the few strokes of the keyboard so it is | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
important for authorities to keep track of the networks and CD | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
interactions but Twitter says it has got many accounts for terrorism this | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
year but these things are still up to date. This is something that | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
requires more resources and attention and is not something we do | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
naturally, it requires a rethink about how we look after the | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
particular hate mongers without alienating other people for whom the | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
idea they are intervened in their own society, you are not allowed to | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
do things that you think are perfectly normal, we have two | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
obviously be careful to enlist the work of these people. It is | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
boundaries of free speech. What can you say? You can look at it that | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
way, I agree. That is the most serious question. I think what is | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
interesting is he has been convicted for not relate what he did or what | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
he preached within Britain but for an external matchers matter, his | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
support for Isis. -- external matter. The question Britain must | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
ask is why it is happening and why are so many people susceptible to | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
his influence? I think there are certain fundamentals that Britain | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
must look at. One of them is the policy of multiculturalism which has | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
led to a policy of appeasement and this has created a vote among | :06:07. | :06:17. | |
political -- fought among the groups that politicians are choosing. That | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
a vote among groups. What is happening is multiculturalism has | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
led to an assertion of religious identity among immigrants in this | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
country and this is something that Britain must be watchful of. We do | :06:33. | :06:40. | |
have the Prevent strategy. Mina, do you think that is working. There has | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
been criticism from some Muslim communities that they feel it is not | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
tackle the problem and there is a danger it alienates. I think Prevent | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
has been quite successful. In preventing people turning to | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
extremism? Preventing actual attacks happening because there is one thing | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
about ideology, because we do not want to pull the spots but in terms | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
of how they will act and that is where the criminal line can be | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
drawn. If you are going to do harm on others that is where you can have | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
people jailed and Anjem was Colin people to hurt others. I think | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
multiculturalism is quite good in this country has been a success and | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
people who get involved with Isis are criminals and should be treated | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
with such. I do not think we should seek multiculturalism is the | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
problem. This country has succeeded where other countries haven't by | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
allowing multiple identities. You can be proud of being a British but | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
also be proud of your roots. The Prevent strategy is focusing not | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
allowing cells to come together and carry out attacks and that is the | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
success Britain has had, touch wood, but others not. I would say a policy | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
of integration should have been fundamental in the policy connected | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
with immigration. Rather than allowing too much of assertion of | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
foreign identity. We do move on. India and Pakistan are two nuclear | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
powers who have never entirely been at peace with one another - | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
especially over Each accuses the other of stirring | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
up trouble in a sub-continental Cold War which touches China | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
and Afghanistan too. How likely is the possibility | :08:28. | :08:38. | |
of escalation into something Ashis, is this a continuation of the | :08:39. | :08:54. | |
same conflict or is there a new generation of young Kashmiris | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
getting engaged? It is larger and internal problem and problem of the | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
scent of people against the local administration. -- dissent. It is | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
also the failure of central Government and handling the | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
situation in Kashmir because when you have 45 days of curfews, 16 | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
people killed in clashes between security forces that accept stay. | :09:19. | :09:31. | |
That is unacceptable. -- 16 people. -- 60 people. The main state in a | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
Kashmiri politics has been the National party, who are now in | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
opposition, and they expressed their fury on this matter and so have the | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
left parties so people in India are not exactly happy about what is | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
happening in Kashmir because they are killing their own people and | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
that is something people have found disturbing. It is an internal matter | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
and needs to be tackled carefully and with a consensus among political | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
parties. Add-on, you get the sense of British authorities are content | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
to leave it as an internal matter, despite historic ties. There have | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
been three or four Mac wars between India and Pakistan over the past 50 | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
years and there have been frequent, apart from the wars, frequent | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
disturbances. The idea that this will escalate into something major, | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
I do not think so. More saves have too much to lose for that. The | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
Indian army is ten times the size of the Pakistani army. -- both sides | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
have too much to lose. I was in Kashmir a long time ago when it was | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
very peaceful but even so you could feel the underlying tensions. These | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
keep on coming out. I do not think there is a reasonable solution. I | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
think the rest of the world must be watchful -- easy solution. I | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
downplay it is a major, major conflict. As we heard, these are two | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
nuclear powers that are engaged in this conflict. Well, well become | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
tableaux of its? This is one of those problems -- will become | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
tableaux. It seems there needs to be political process. There are people | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
who are deeply discontented and in the past there has been the idea and | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
discussions involving dissident parties in Kashmir and Pakistan and | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
parties in India. Basically now nothing is happening and the Modi | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
policy appears to be economics on the comedy of money and build up the | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
region without doing anything about the political grievances. -- give | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
them money. As people get radicalised through the internet and | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
the side and soul of Isis, who say they want to expand into Kashmir. | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
The ingredients are there for things getting worse. I do not think | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
Washington -based that much attention, they have other crazies | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
to worry about. This seems to have gone off -- the other crisis. This | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
has gone off the bone and we need to return to it. -- on Fleetwood Mac. | :12:21. | :12:28. | |
You in Kashmir seeing a new generation of rebel leaders using | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
social media. -- they have put it on the burner. It is interesting | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
because there was hope there would be more political stamina to try to | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
come to agreements between Pakistan and India and that seems completely | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
implausible. Partly because there has been a building or politics but | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
also because of international powers that aren't really interested. But | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
it is important to solve this issue, or the Kashmiris themselves. Quite | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
often we get riled up discussion on geopolitics but at the end of the | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
day there are people on the ground and people are losing their lives. | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
The two countries are committed to solve their problems bilaterally and | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
peacefully. On the basis of the similar agreement of 1972 but | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
obvious that that is easier said than done and as long as there is | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
the Army in Pakistan calling the shots and there is a nexus between | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
the army and the religious extremists and the hardline Prime | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
Minister in India and things are plans. I agree nobody is likely to | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
be so silly as to take it further than the few exchanges of hot words. | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
We will move on. Donald Trump's campaign chairman | :13:52. | :13:52. | |
Paul Manafort received millions of dollars, | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
we were told this week, from the former Putin backed | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
government of Ukraine. He seems to have adopted a new tone | :14:01. | :14:12. | |
and even expressing regret for some of his comments. Will this help them | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
and how are his allies viewing this race? | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
Does his new tone really mean anything, or the departure of his | :14:21. | :14:30. | |
campaign German? The cute so what he expressed regret he done it from the | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
telephone number and when -- whenever he does that it is a lie. | :14:36. | :14:44. | |
-- read from a teleprompter. What he is good at is saying these things | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
that get them on the news, extraordinary claims, Obama is the | :14:48. | :14:56. | |
founder of Isis, Hillary Clinton is sick. People in favour of guns | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
should shoot Mrs Clinton. The Russians should happen the e-mails. | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
For any other kind of person to see any of these things with this | :15:07. | :15:08. | |
qualified but this is what has worked for him, it got him the | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
nomination and gotten as far as he is. When he tries to be so what | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
policy politician does not work so the figures, what do I have to lose? | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
As all numbers are so low now it is hard to see how he get back -- as | :15:25. | :15:33. | |
his poll numbers. Georgia and Arizona, which voted for Republicans | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
for the past 30 years, our employee. He is below metal from the's numbers | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
in every battle ground state. He has a 70% disapproval rating. -- Mitt | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
Romey numbers. So I think he figures it is good for my brand, set uphill | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
and make money after she was in the campaign, I might go to work and | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
start my own news network and see what happens. -- Sarah Palin made | :16:02. | :16:10. | |
money. Don't run down the teleprompter. I got fired by the BBC | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
because I could not predict! Ronald Reagan was one of the greatest | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
operators of it. -- because I could not read it. What is happening here | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
is an extraordinary race. Everyone forecast this guy was a hopeless | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
character who would not get the nomination. He now has it, everyone | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
forecast he will lose, as I do. What I am interested in is will he bring | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
down the Republican party with him? It is an extraordinary choice for | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
them to have made and he could cost them dearly, both in the Senate and | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
house and I would be interested in your view of how serious their | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
losses will be. Let me bring in Mina here. What concerns are there that | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
these views about building a wall, clamping down on Muslims in the | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
country, OK, his poll ratings seem to be dropping apart without more | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
concern is the lasting damage? It will definitely be here. One, he | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
made it OK to say these things and the idea that if you are not racist | :17:22. | :17:23. | |
you are politically correct and being a liar, so the idea that being | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
politically correct is a bad thing is a lasting. Also, he will not go | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
away. If he loses the presidency, and I do not necessarily believe the | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
polls as many people will not tell the pollsters they overcome. We saw | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
what happened in the UK where we were complacent and people said one | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
thing and the result was that it. So he will not go into the wilderness | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
and the networking is building around him and the idea he is | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
getting close to Roger Ailes, just left at Fox News because of sexual | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
harassment case. Sort your people like that forming around him and | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
that could be forming a new political movement within the USA. | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
Is their concern about how this will play out in terms of the USA's | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
relations with the rest of the world? Indeed. The USA is the most | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
powerful country in the world and therefore the presidential election | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
of the USA is of concern and interest to the entire world. The | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
com and in chief of that country, you wonder how it is but a | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
mainstream political party like the Republican party have got a | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
candidate like this man, Donald Trump, and therefore it is indeed | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
worrying because the whole world is concerned about this selection and | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
hope something untoward does not happen. Keeping their fingers | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
crossed for Hillary Clinton. I suppose there is a vast number of | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
people in the world who was hope and pray Hillary Clinton wins. But there | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
are sections in the world who are very happy with Donald Trump, | :19:11. | :19:20. | |
including, by the way, a section of Modi's soul mates and America. What | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
plant has done is draw attention to a disaffected elements of the | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
population who have valid grievances. -- waterfront has done. | :19:31. | :19:38. | |
It is an important element and in respect of what happens, and I hope | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
he loses, he will have done a service and that extent. You cannot | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
ignore these people. Like many people who voted for Brexit, the | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
have lost out through globalisation, lost out a immigration and the | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
liberal consensus which I am afraid we all represent around here, we | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
have ignored it for too long. The tea party made this point for a long | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
time. I agree Donald Trump has drawn special attention to it but in order | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
to wallow in it, does he have a single idea that would solve the | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
problem seized on attention to? And Hillary Clinton is interested in the | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
and trying to fix infrastructure and do the hard things that the | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
Government must do. I take your point but I still think the is | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
revelling and accentuating in the problems and he has gone past so | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
many boundaries of almost decency is a right word, that a complicated | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
country requires to operate successfully. The danger he will | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
come out of the election, as he is already saying, the election is | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
illegitimate, my votes were stolen from me. The whole basis of the | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
society has come up which we will hear a lot more of as we get towards | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
the election. His new director was working with Nigel Fiveash Annie | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
Brexit campaigners -- Nigel Fiveash. We will hear a lot about that and | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
that is not the way to run a complicated country. And how great | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
our concerns about that, he says America withdrawing somewhat from | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
international engagement? If the Senate, five years on, a in | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
desperate dire straits and the Americans clearly very unwilling to | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
be drawn in. -- if you look at Syria. That is the Obama presidency. | :21:35. | :21:42. | |
In some ways his way of engaging was through speeches and saying we want | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
to be your friend. Most people see it as the main superpower, of course | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
we see a resurgence of Russia and everything from Russia's possible | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
role into the S hack and that their role in Syria this week were used in | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
reading airbases Obama said it was hardly anything said by the USA. | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
There is even be that a solution is and not holding this moral | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
responsibility. Clinton would be a totally different by President, for | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
sure. Do we have confidence in the Donald | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Trump as to what his foreign policy would be, what is a rack different | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
type of president, for sure. Do we have confidence in the Donald Trump | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
as to what his foreign policy would be, what is Iraq foreign policy -- | :22:30. | :22:31. | |
what his Iraq policy, Syria policy. We do not what -- we do not know | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
what he stands for. In terms of his economic and foreign policy. We have | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
no idea. She has no idea. The people who write his policy papers are not | :22:44. | :22:51. | |
working for him. The Republican Party have said they will not work | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
for Alan. He has not engaged in these matters seriously. -- will not | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
work for him. He said he will not come to the aid of a Nato ally. How | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
do you come up that idea? No doubt he is damaging to the USA. | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
Even in Russia I suspect they regard him as a lunatic, I suspect. Our | :23:19. | :23:28. | |
lunatic. He is speaking to a problem in America, aerial devices are based | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
and that cannot be ignored, rubber ones the presidency. -- device base. | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
People have voted this way, many of them, where art anti-immigrant in | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
Britain during Brexit, they were not racist -- are not anti-American. | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
They were sped up with the establishment and wanted their voice | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
heard. -- fed up. He was a reality TV star who should not have been | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
your best but he does speak for those people. The idea from is there | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
for people who have not benefited from globalisation because look at | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
what he stands for. He bankrupted himself for times and is still as | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
multimillionaire. It is the false discourse that he represents the | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
underprivileged, because he does not. Problem is how much damage he | :24:23. | :24:31. | |
will do to the Republican Party. The election of senators and | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
Representatives is the issue bought them because his unpopularity could | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
take some of them down. Is that in real danger and that sentiment and | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
sense there is a body of opinion in the USA but actually supports this, | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
is that going to, by the handle of whoever emerges as an ex-president? | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
The appalling as bad. But we have three more months to go. We could | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
have revelations of corruption, we could offer lots of other things so | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
who knows what will happen but right now the money from Republican | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
donors, they are trying to shore up the Senate, it looks like the Senate | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
may go Democrat, although it looks unlikely the house will go | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
democratic but we do not know. What happens after the election? All | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
barking in thinking, I am a consensus candidate, I want to build | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
bridges, I will be nice and people will be nice with me. But | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
immediately the Republicans said we will make him a one term president | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
and delegitimise him. Donald Trump himself was saying he was not born | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
in the USA. It will be hard to draw back from calling her early Clinton | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
a liar, a trip, a murderer. If you get this wonderful prize of being | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
the president and then try to make something of what is left, it will | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
be very complicated. And there we have to leave it. | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
That's it for Dateline London for this week. | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
You can comment on the programme on Twitter #bbcdateline and also | :26:09. | :26:10. | |
We're back next week at the same time. | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
Make a date with Dateline London. | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
After a reasonable week it has been a disappointing start to the | :26:16. | :26:46. | |
weekend. This weather watcher picture from Minehead illustrates | :26:47. | :26:47. |