Browse content similar to 27/08/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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President Erdogan of Turkey has certainly bounced back | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
This week he appeared to have the United States | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
After a Turkish incursion into Syria denied the group that calls itself | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
Islamic State its only border crossing, the US | :00:36. | :00:36. | |
obligingly instructed Kurds to get out of the way if they wanted | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
to carry on receiving American support. | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
Mr Erdogan is not the only populist politician basking | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
Nigel Farage, one of the prominent voices in the successful | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
campaign to get Britain out of the European Union, appeared | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
at a rally with Donald Trump, telling his supporters | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
Even as in Syria some women were celebrating liberation | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
from Islamic State by taking off their burkhas, those wearing | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
them on the beaches of France were being ordered to take them off. | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
To discuss all that with me this week are Arab affairs | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
writer Abdel Bari Atwan, Eunice Goes, the Portuguese academic | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
and journalist, Alex Deane, a British Conservative commentator, | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
and Michael Goldfarb from Politico Europe. | :01:19. | :01:27. | |
Welcome to all of you. Has a deal being done in Syria? There is a | :01:28. | :01:40. | |
secret deal done by the two superpowers, US and Russia. The | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
meeting in Geneva between Sergei Lavrov the Russian Foreign Minister | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
and his American counterpart John Kerry, it seems they also reach an | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
agreement about a ceasefire now. There are four questions, important | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
ones. The first, what will happen to Isis? They are losing in Syria now. | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
It could also lose Mose all and Raqqa. What will happen to the | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
territory that they used to control? Who will be the sovereign that? Will | :02:14. | :02:21. | |
it go back to the Syrian regime, or other forces? The other question | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
which is also important, what will happen to the Syrian president | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
himself? These are the most important questions here. I believe | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
personally, the major problem is what will happen to the coalition | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
after they managed to defeat Isis? If they manage to defeat Isis? | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
Alligator stay together or will they fight each other? For example the | :02:53. | :03:02. | |
Turks and the Kurds. The hatred towards Isis unifies everyone, but | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
the biggest questions is Syria going to be stable after that? Will it be | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
United Kim are Russian and American is going to continue working | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
together or will they crush? Can you put the genie back into the bottle? | :03:21. | :03:32. | |
I don't think so. It has been very clear in the American goal over the | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
last 24 months has been Isis. They walked away from the red Line | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
concerning Assad, they are focused on Isis. If they can bring Russia | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
along, some chain of command so that the Turkish government to whom it | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
has its own tensions at the moment, will innocence following American | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
and Russian lead in confronting Isis, that is important. Then you | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
have the problem of what you do with Assad, clearly you cannot stay in | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
power. The country has been destroyed. Thrush clearly he cannot. | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
There are so many subplots and when I say that, they are minor subplots | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
but when the -- what the Turks and Kurds ultimately do is important. In | :04:26. | :04:34. | |
Baghdad, they were going crazy, you have invaded a sovereign country. | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
You can't come over. You have to control Erdogan. Can you control the | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
Kurdish leadership? These are all questions to come but at the moment | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
people are focused on eliminated eliminating Isis and that is | :04:52. | :05:03. | |
important. Do you think Erdogan is focused on this? He seems to be set | :05:04. | :05:12. | |
on his own agenda, asserting Turkish power in the region. Wanting to | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
scare away the Kurdish forces in Syria. This latest incursion in | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
Syria, this was not about destroying Isis, or Daesh, it was about making | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
sure the Kurdish forces do not get above themselves. I'm not so sure, | :05:31. | :05:39. | |
it would be good to think of the deal, the future deal of peace in | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
Syria. It has been such a horrendous conflict with terrible impact on | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
civilian life. There are so many players, foreign players, all of | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
them with a different agenda. How will they agree on the future head? | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
It is easier to keep on fighting, unfortunately. When one looks at the | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
US backed Kurdish group in Syria, they were told by Joe Biden, moved | :06:08. | :06:18. | |
back always stop supporting you. But it is hard to see them saying we'll | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
go back to how things were once Isis are defeated. They did not listen to | :06:23. | :06:31. | |
him, they defeated Isis, and said we are here to stay. The Kurds will be | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
the next problem for the region powers after Isis. I don't believe | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
Isis will disappear completely. They will go underground. If they go | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
underground, this is the best thing that can happen. They are not | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
responsible for 9 million people to supply them with electricity, | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
education, health. If they get rid of ices, over the ground, they will | :06:57. | :07:06. | |
go underground. -- Isis. The Americans promised to give the Kurds | :07:07. | :07:17. | |
a state, and... A big promise. This will upset Turkey, Syria, Iran, | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
Russia. Syria will be here and hopefully we will be talking about | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
it for another hundred years. Western fighters have been referring | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
to a town as Little London. Many British children, one gathers, I | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
being reared in the ISI tradition in that town. I think you're right, the | :07:46. | :07:53. | |
long-term is unclear. In the short to medium term it is obvious the big | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
winner is Erdogan. He has solidified his position, overcome a coup, | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
becomes stronger, things he gave away with things he was couple with | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
anyway, like the airport, and he promised a time bomb to the Kurds | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
himself having had that ability and it seems to me that the things he | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
has given up in Europe, statements towards migration control, in return | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
he gets these free migration for millions of Turks, brilliantly | :08:24. | :08:32. | |
negotiated. Far better than Brexit negotiations! I think Assad is | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
definitely going to have more time on his hands. I am fascinated to | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
hear that a deal has been done. Where would he go? That is the | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
question, many people in the Middle East, where I met in Beirut when I | :08:50. | :08:58. | |
was there. They believed that there is some sort of understanding, | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Russian and American understanding about the future of Assad. Where | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
would you go? Must go, to run? -- Moscow, Teheran. It could be | :09:11. | :09:19. | |
somebody from the Army, we don't know, yet. Whoever comes in, it is | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
an amazing achievement from Kerry. They managed to get past that | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
situation with Russia saying Assad has to stay. If Kerry managed to | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
turn them around from that point of view, that could be his greatest | :09:34. | :09:34. | |
legacy. Donald Trump received | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
some international aid Nigel Farage, who was instrumental | :09:39. | :09:39. | |
in the campaign to get Britain out of the European Union joined | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
Mr Trump in Mississippi, where he suggested the two were soul | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
mates, battling the establishment. It is a strange one, because Nigel | :09:47. | :09:59. | |
Farage is in a sense, you could argue, contributed to victory in the | :10:00. | :10:08. | |
Brexit campaign but lost his own personal battles. Donald Trump is | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
struggling to sustain his campaign, adapting his message, yet here they | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
were with the antiestablishment message reinforcing each other. The | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
idea is you sit outside the mainstream and in their words clean | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
up Washington, that is the position you want to have to realise a | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
lecture or success. That has a long standing tradition in American | :10:32. | :10:44. | |
politics. Trump goes a couple of stages beyond the Reagan positioning | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
in ostentation sleigh being beyond the outside, saying things to elicit | :10:51. | :10:59. | |
response. He is not a small state, liberal, free marketeer. Many values | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
he has are off the left, I think. The Nigel Farage point is | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
interesting, he took a party way outside the political mainstream in | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
the UK from 14 European elections, all the way to first, if you want to | :11:14. | :11:23. | |
associate yourself with an anti-mainstream populist winner, he | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
is probably the most acceptable force. The funny thing is, they | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
chose to meet in Mississippi and that is a place that tries to leave | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
the union in 1861. -- tried. And it didn't quite work out. In fact, in | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
the insulin war, it was only one city that survive. It is also where | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
the Ku Klux Klan was founded. It is the one state we know Donald Trump | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
will win. In terms of what the practicalities are, I think | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
everybody was kind of bill used. Nigel Farage was... Do people know | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
who ears in the US? No, of course not. -- do people know who he is? | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
What people do respect is in a nameless accent! -- English accent. | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
I've been trying to acquire one for 30 years and it's not working. All | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
my attempts have been mocked mercilessly. It went make a | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
difference to the outcome of the election. It is just an August blip. | :12:34. | :12:43. | |
It also underlines a certain kind of desperation in the Trump campaign | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
and perhaps among his core supporters. Really, why would you | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
listen to Nigel Farage except to say we are against the establishment? | :12:52. | :12:59. | |
But nobody understood. You can say he was one of the leaders in a | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
movement that one a referendum against the tide. He wasn't even | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
invited by your friends in the Conservative Party to sit on the | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
platform with them during the Brexit campaign. Boris Johnson and Michael | :13:12. | :13:20. | |
Gove are the leaders... The Conservative Party didn't campaign. | :13:21. | :13:29. | |
The party had a neutral position. There was an official campaign | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
headed by two members, well, one member of the Cabinet and the Mayor | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
of London. Let's not be playing too much with words there. I don't think | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
anyone who followed it on the panel really thought anything other that | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
Michael Gove and Boris Johnson were conservatives and Nigel Farage was | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
the outsider. And left the party almost as soon as they want. That is | :13:56. | :14:04. | |
a very odd one. -- one. There is a limit to the appeal of populist | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
leaders like Farah each and Trump. There is a section of people who | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
will always believe them. Followers will continue to listen and love | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
everything they say. The problem for Trump and Nigel Farage, the voters | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
who are undecided, might like some of the things they say but who are | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
disgusted all revolted with the racism. Let's face it. Politically | :14:33. | :14:42. | |
and correct stances they have on things like women, ethnic | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
minorities. -- politically incorrect. There has been a a lot of | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
talk about the rise of the populace. Is that being sustained in other | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
countries? Yes, this is happening a year before the French presidential | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
elections, the burkini band, we are seeing socialist and centre-right | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
politicians latching on the debate because they are faring Marie Le | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
Pen. She is a great friend of Nigel Farage. She wants to repeat what | :15:13. | :15:21. | |
Britain did, voting for an exit. There is clearly a tired and it is a | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
result of the greatest economic recession since the 1930s with 30 | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
years of economic mobilisation that it has a serious impact on the lives | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
of the poorest, least educated and so on. And mainstream politics that | :15:40. | :15:49. | |
has looked very samey. People like Trump and Nigel Farage sit outside | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
it. People have been calling Trump racist, people called Nigel Farage | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
racist and he went on to demonstrate that that accusation needn't hold | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
you back from electoral success. You try to transcend that label, term of | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
abuse, which has normally been the death knell of your career, Nigel | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
Farage is the first person you would look to, unlike Marie Le Pen who are | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
still outside the acceptable mainstream. Nigel Farage one. They | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
make racism acceptable. No, they make being full sleigh accused of | :16:24. | :16:32. | |
racism acceptable. -- falsely. That goes to show why the Remain campaign | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
last. I think it is a recipe for disaster, isolation and dismantle | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
meant in the long run. I believe Nigel Farage has tried to go back to | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
the limelight and he chose America for that. He knows this country, he | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
is not as he was, the star. He goes there and I honestly believe he is | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
gaining more than Trump himself. If you can make it there, you could | :17:00. | :17:00. | |
make it anywhere! It was Churchill who promised | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
to fight them on the beaches - French beaches in the second world | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
war, but he certainly The modern day battle on the beaches | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
- and, yes, there has been one already, a punch-up in Corsica - | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
is over the burkini ban, swimwear that covers | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
almost the entire body. Photographs of a woman | :17:19. | :17:20. | |
being instructed to remove hers by four male police officers | :17:21. | :17:21. | |
was deeply unsettling for some, others insisted Islamic | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
dress was "provocative" - a surprising statement perhaps | :17:25. | :17:26. | |
when the French are unmoved by On Friday, the bans were thrown | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
into doubt when the Council of State, France's highest | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
administrative court suspended the ban at Villeneuve-Loubet pending | :17:37. | :17:38. | |
a detailed judgement This debate is fast turning into one | :17:39. | :17:55. | |
in which there is very little empathy from one side to the other. | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
Had you see this working its way through the system? -- how do you. | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
It is reflecting a hugely divided society which is on the verge of | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
hysteria about Muslims in their midst because this is what it is | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
about. It shows a country that has a huge discomfort with religious | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
people and displays of religious belief. Also it has a problem with | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
the way that it deals with women. I'm sorry to say, it is yet another | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
case of men telling women what to do with their bodies. All these mayors | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
in France who have imposed the burkini bands at men. The | :18:41. | :18:42. | |
politicians who have supported the ban, they also tend to be male. | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
Women do not... It is Barbarians. The woman perhaps would not impose. | :18:51. | :18:59. | |
I stress perhaps, would not think about... Marie le then perhaps. Yes, | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
but she is different. It shows opinions are changing in France | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
because ten years ago when the first bands on displays of religious | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
symbols in France came up, there was a consensus in France about how | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
right it was. Now, not so much. You see editorials in the mainstream | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
newspapers where people are clearly unhappy. They feel terribly | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
distasteful, an infringement of liberty. It is a polarised opinion. | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
One hand, the elites are somehow changing and starting to think about | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
the republican model and what is the problem with militant republicanism | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
and on the other hand you have a polarisation of we have to do | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
something about tackling Muslims in France who have inflicted terrorist | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
attacks on us. I'm not entirely sure this is about the French idea of | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
secularism. There is some long history going back to the Napoleonic | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
era when the minority that was both racial and religious were the Jews | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
of eastern France who were finally granted citizenship and civil | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
rights. Napoleon didn't appreciate the speed they were try to | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
integrate. He can been something -- convened something and out of that | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
came a whole bunch of rules about how you had to stop having Jewish | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
names, you had to have the Christian name, also rules about trades you | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
could do. There is history of the state intervening to force the pace | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
of integration. This is one of total absurdity because this is a swimming | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
costume. This is not about the Koran, this is about people who want | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
to dress modestly I go to the beach. Sometimes we have a good laugh at | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
the French and French officialdom, especially those who favour Brexit. | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
But in this one, the court came through and hopefully this is just | :21:08. | :21:16. | |
an August story. But there are 50 places or municipalities that are | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
challenging this. They said no, we are going to impose it. They said | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
they will carry on until the final judgment. This is the biggest | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
present you are giving to radical Islam. Is annexed a women wouldn't | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
go to the beaches and swim wearing bikinis. -- Islamic State. They | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
don't go to swing at all. This is the problem and they are trying to | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
make a link between Islamic State the burkini. Let me put you what the | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
mayor of the town where the ban has been overturned by the court said, | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
he said we need to decide whether we want a smiley, friendly version of | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
sherry a law on our beaches or if we want the rules of the Republic to be | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
implemented. -- Shari a law. When you go to divide all Morocco or | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
Tunisia and your wife would like to swim with the burkini, do you see | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
Tunisian police coming to you saying your wife should cover up. -- your | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
wife would like to swim with a bikini. France is supposed to be | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
secular, but they don't want to see a woman wearing burkini. Nigella | :22:39. | :22:47. | |
Lawson is not a member of Islamic State she wore a burkini. Why should | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
she not? If she is in France, will the police come to her saying, | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
Nigella Lawson, you're not allowed to wear one. She is a well-known | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
cookery writer, for those who don't know. I don't believe the state | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
should tell people what to wear that unsurprised by the comparison you | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
have just made because you maintaining Western women are | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
required to or made to cover up? And not imply that at all. I say why is | :23:17. | :23:30. | |
it, it is the liberal choice. If there is a Muslim citizen, French | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
muslin citizen are not allowed to do so and the country is supposed to be | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
liberal and secular. -- French Muslim. In terms of carwash and, as | :23:40. | :23:49. | |
a Conservative, what is your take on this? -- in terms of coercion. | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
Should municipalities have the right to say no burkini? Or is it a | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
question for any government to get involved in? My judgment of what | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
people wear is up to me, not up to the state. So you think it is | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
ridiculous. Correct. America has best tradition of separating church | :24:11. | :24:18. | |
and state. Has it had... Has it not struggled in the past with these | :24:19. | :24:26. | |
issues? It is interesting, yes, of course. These so-called culture wars | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
which have been going on most of my adult life have come, the Argent | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
starts with religious component. For example, the very first issue was | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
prayer in school. -- the argument starts. We had to say The Lord's | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
Prayer every morning before school started. An atheist challenged in | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
court and the Supreme Court says you cannot have prayer in school and | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
from that moment to this, the religious communities in America | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
have been for the most part on the right wing, been fighting to have | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
what their view of the... Will have to be very quick. A quick judgment, | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
will the ban be overturned? They will continue until there is a | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
definite ban across the nation. I think it is an August story, we went | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
about it next year. It suits Nicholas Arcos the. -- Sarkozy. I'm | :25:25. | :25:33. | |
happy the ban has been lifted because the timing of this is | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
disastrous. We'll have to leave it there. Thank you for being with us. | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
That's it for Dateline London for this week - | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
we're back next week at the same time. | :25:46. | :25:48. |