05/08/2017 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline London I'm Jane Hill.

This week we discuss Ireland's growing fears about the

What should the world do about the crisis in Venezuela,

And is the Duke of Edinburgh setting the tone for us

all, not retiring until the age of 96?

My guests are: David Aaronovitch of the Times,

Brian O'Connell, who's an Irish writer and broadcaster,

Algerian journalist Nabila Ramdani, and Michael Goldfarb,

the founder of the podcast FRDH - welcome to you all.

The Brexit negotiations are on hold for the summer holiday -

but that's not stopped the new Irish Prime Minister

expressing his anxieties about the future.

Leo Varadker made an outspoken speech in Belfast this week,

and called for "unique solutions" to preserve the relationship between

the UK and the European Union after Britain leaves.

Brian, you're just back from Dublin -

A distinct change of tone from Kenny's time. Leo Varadker has

decided to distance himself from the UK. Kenny had, since the referendum,

said to the other EU members we are very close to Britain and we can

help Britain through this. Now, Leo Varadker is saying, in fact, Britain

better get on with it. They have to come up with solutions for the

border. In politics, as everyone around this table knows, words are

important. What does a seamless border mean? If you cannot trade the

way you used to? If, for example, the customs union is not there any

more? Clearly worried about trade? It is crucial. This is not new. The

way which the Irish Governmentmy concerns are expressed is far

harsher. Michael? There is two things. The border. The economic

border. Seems to be gone. And the more abstract, metaphysical border

dividing the island since independence and the source of the

Troubles. It is important again. But there is another border. Irish goods

usually come by ferry into the islands of Britain and go across

into the continent. If that changes, how will Irish goods get to the

continent? A much longer at sea voyage unless they can arrange some

sort of customs thing you land at Holyhead and exit at Dover. The land

bridge, shipping goods to France, go on a ferry to France. But it is a

much longer journey, as you say. The problem they have will be the land

bridge. If Britain is no longer in the customs union, you cannot build

a car park big enough to do the paperwork. Ireland's food industry

is first in the firing line and has been since the referendum, the

devaluation in sterling. Difficult to grow and produce in euros and

sell in sterling in British supermarkets without taking a hit.

About 18%, the hit, so far. David, is he speaking because it is obvious

and no more negotiations for a few weeks, I will have my say?

Expressing real frustration? Everyone I think is incredibly

frustrated with Britain. It is quite obvious that the European

negotiators are frustrated. There always was a problem after the

Brexit vote, the degree to which, not only Britain could actually

create a deal which gave the things it but it wanted, which were, some

of which, incompatible. Within a structure that suited other people

as well. Why should European countries trust a British

Government, a British Prime Minister, to deliver on Europe given

the politics in Britain given that almost no Conservative I Minister is

in a position to deliver on Europe. If it was not for the splits in the

Conservative Party, we would not have had the referendum, Brexit, and

mucking around getting nowhere. The Government will say, we have this

mandate and will continue to negotiate because we have two? We

are not where we are... A threat from saying, if we get to the

October summit and we do not seek and progress, and citizens' rights,

and the financial settlement, if there has not been enough progress

on Ireland by then, we cannot move onto the next page until there is.

That is the threat Britain faces. The fact is, despite what Philip

Hammond says, Brexit will affect every department of life. It will be

a major headache, affecting everything from trade, security and

agricultural and fishery policies. Ireland does not think it will be a

smooth experience. Nor do the rest of us. Dare I say, one of the most

perhaps predictable developments Brexit is the record number of

British people applying for Irish passports. Hundreds of thousands of

applications are being made in the UK and across Europe, and the rest

of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't quite a

few Brexit pro people among the applicants! We have no way of

knowing that. Where is George Osborne's? The primary motivation of

many levers and the question is emerging with such force proves that

having your cake and eating it isn't really very credible as an option.

Crucially, the Irish Republic and Ulster relationship has been stable

recently but the Troubles could go up again. The DUP is now closest to

the Government... Trade, one of's key concerns. A last note on the

peace process, the power-sharing Government? The British and Irish

Government are guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement. They

compensated structure that took a long time to negotiate and I do not

think the British Government is paying enough attention to the

north- south structures that are in place. That is the political part,

but the economic part is the trade across that order. You cannot have

the technological, technical solution to it. They say, for

example, you can pay your customs duties on the same way as the tall

by having a bar code in the windscreen of the truck. Ask anyone

in Ireland what happens if you put a very small, on top of a very tall

pole on the board of the Republic and Northern Ireland. The

negotiations for Brexit get back under way at the end of August, and

we measured the summit in October. There were major international

developments in two areas this week, Let's start with Venezuela,

and the controversial new assembly - packed with allies of the unpopular

President Nicolas Maduro - held its inaugural session this

week, amid widespread international The election that brought it

in was marred by violence David, how should the rest

of the world be treating Maduro? It is difficult for the rest of the

world to respond. What do you do? The sanctions against Nicolas Maduro

and the leading people in his party. And the reading figures of the

governments, the people who are most significantly responsible for what

is going on and to the descent of Venezuela into dictatorship, towards

dictatorship. You can sanction them personally but it will not alter

what they do. The problem is they are now so completely invested in

the process of taking Venezuela away from any form of democracy, the

place is in such a mess, were they to lose power they would almost

certainly be indicted, go to prison. Unless someone can offer Nicolas

Maduro and his friends a lovely refuge somewhere with lots of money

on a sun-kissed island, it is difficult to see what is the

inducements are you can create. I think what the outside world has to

do is to give assistance to those people trying to help the Venezuelan

people, human rights organisations and so on to try and mitigate the

worst effects of what is going on. If the outside world in some way can

offer its services as some form of negotiating body to help with the

peaceful transition, that is what it has to do. There is no scope for any

significant intervention in the affairs of Venezuela. That will not

make things better. I don't think anyone will do it. I think that,

from what I know of the country, what is interesting to follow is

that, for all of the demonstration, you have not had the disintegration.

People retreating into the hills, and and forming an insurgency to try

and overthrew the Government. The people resisting Nicolas Maduro's

moves towards dictatorship are using the right to assembly and is being

shut down as they protest. It is a very strange and folding. There was

a time in Latin America when there were a lot of left-wing

authoritarian regimes. Right-wing authoritarian regimes, people went

to the hills. That is not happening now. Colombia is adjacent. They have

come to an arrangement with the Government and reaching a

post-conflict situation. As in Northern Ireland. In Venezuela,

trapped in some early 1970s time warp. There is not much the outside

world can do, as David said, the traditional allies of the regime,

Cuba is going to transition. There was a a decade ago when Chavez was

still in power. Having economic problems and Cuba sent over doctors

and aid. I do feel there are many steps to go but it is an internal

process. I feel for my contacts in Venezuela, reporting from there,

kind of stuck in that terrible situation of 80-90% inflation.

Whatever they have accumulated in their lives is worthless and they

are stuck. It is terrible. A long way to run? What strikes me is the

way people in Britain take a particular interest in Venezuela

because Jeremy Corbyn made vague noises about the country and

suggesting she was a supporter of Maduro. He is pretty quiet at the

moment, Colburn, because he is undoubtedly as baffled by the real

situation as we all are. It is clear that Venezuela has been administered

in an appalling manner, for decades, and policies have failed. The state

could descend into civil war and outright disaster. It is wrong to

look at a hugely complicated sociopolitical situation to the

Trump prism meaning the Evans are a contest between old right-wingers

and Jeremy Corbyn- style left. A propaganda war, in terms of cold War

creatures. They have always been problems in South American

societies. The real problems are not necessarily caused by governments,

but a few families and cartels who amass all the wealth. This creates

problems in South American society, the public. It takes more

sophisticated solutions than having a left- right political argument.

Seeing the whole thing in isolation this is the classic Donald Trump

view of the world, presenting things as if they were completely new, is

if this has not happened before. He does it with immigration, terrorism,

and it is a far from impressive approach to the whole issue. It is

quite hard to move away from Donald Trump.

Secondly lets turn to North Korea and its continual testing

At the time of our conversation, we await a UN Security Council vote,

later on Saturday, on a resolution to strengthen sanctions

Michael, we've seen Rex Tillerson on a trip to South East Asia,

what do you make of the US approach to this?

From what we know of life in North Korea, you could buy a 100,000

sanctions on it and the regime and its close accolades will survive and

the people will continue in their lives. I think that, I hate to go

back to Donald Trump... I spoke too soon! One of the things about North

Korea, we are paying attention because they claim to have developed

intercontinental ballistic missiles that could deliver a weapon of mass

destruction, to the continental United States, delivering it. They

have tried it. They have not tested it that far. That is why everyone is

paying attention. We are obsessed with Donald Trump and he has created

his own reality, but another reality covers the whole planet. When it

comes to North Korea, I think China and Russia and the governments that

really will be the crucial ones. As we have seen, learned one thing from

the six months of Donald Trump, he blasters. Makes big talk and

speeches in front of his supporters but, in the end, much of his

programme never comes into being. With foreign policy, that is a

danger because someone somewhere will make a risk adulation and the

United States will respond. In the case of North Korea, a few weeks

ago, China reinforced its border along the river. This is a sign of

who, really, we should be looking at is to control the situation. We will

be curious to see what happens with this UN Security Council resolution,

just to read it now that's UN security council recommendations

mean anything in the long run, anyway. President Trump is

ill-equipped, to do with North Korea, as he is with Venezuela. No

future in sanctions in North Korea any more than Venezuela because it

has not worked in the part. It will hurt ordinary people more than

anything else. There is, I suppose, comfort to be drawn from Tillerson's

remarks, he said, we are not your enemy but we are threatened by what

you are doing. The roots, as Michael says, to some sort of resolution is

through Beijing, not the way that Donald Trump is talking to Beijing.

The Administration has said that, that is the route, as it sees it?

The whole point about North Korea, it does not think in line with the

West. A pariah state with a significant arsenal. For that

reason, it needs to be taken seriously because it is

unpredictable. Always the temptation for the incumbent president, Trump,

to tackle niggling situation. It is usually Israel and Palestine, but

North Korea is not far off. He has increased military action,

negotiations, as options. Or doing nothing at all. Leaving it for his

successor to worry about. I would hope that Donald Trump is not

encouraged to escalate the situation. I was talking to a former

UN ambassador Hu said sanctions will do nothing, it must be about

talking, diplomacy is the only route? The central problem is the

only Government who can affect things in North Korea and China is

more worried about the possibility of the demise of the regime and its

replacement by a pro-Western regime than it is worried, at the moment,

about the level of sabre rattling from the Kim Jong-un Government. I'm

sure both sides of worry. In China, talking about what happens if he

overstepped the mark. Why is that remains their basic adulation, you

have to assume that the only way you can do with this is by having the

Chinese talk the North Koreans down and having the Chinese aware,

themselves believing there could be a point in which their own

graduation were changed. That is what, in the end, it is all about.

You cannot innovate the place was you could form a large parts of it,

but as we have been reminded of time and again, the capacity of the North

Koreans to hit the South Korean capital, populated areas close to

the border, so rapid and great the chances you can completely knock it

out before that can happen are slim. If that graduation changes, maybe

the other academicians will change. That is conventional artillery. Not

just ballistic missiles. A horrendously fraught situation.

Prince Philip officially retired this week - at the age of 96.

He was the guest of honour at a special Buckingham Palace

ceremony hosted by the Royal Marines.

As the prince left they played "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow".

Many people are now working well beyond the old retirement age,

so is the Duke setting the new norm for all of us?

Have you been writing about working longer? All of us will have to do

it. I'm not sure if we are wanted on television at the age of 96. That is

one of the reasons I like to go swimming in Florida, they are fatter

than me. If anyone adopts this idea of a television channel for

100-year-olds. Good on you, we say, patronising 90-year-olds. It is

nice, obviously. It is good to think, especially as you enter,

what? The early autumn? The thing is, this is an important subject

because we keep hearing, as you said, we have to work longer. Will

someone tell employers we have to work longer? There is nothing like

the death that comes across a newsroom the minute someone hits 50.

That is our business. Across the world, people in implement. Philip

worked in the family firm. You can work as long as your children are

willing to let you. Most people are in salaried employment. We are all

having to work longer. Employers better learn they have to keep us on

longer. If they fire enough of us, as we have seen in the US and we

will see in the UK life expectancy begins to go back to the old days.

People are dying sooner in certain demographics in America because they

have been laid off and cannot find other employment. It is not that

perfect. Someone should tell the boys in Silicon Valley, the smart

28-year-old. Stop inventing robust to put us out of work! David, you

were alluding to the fact there was a piece on the BBC today, a

93-year-old retiring from a supermarket. Reg Chamakh buttress.

-- Reg Buttress. The key to staying in work is self-employment. The

ultimate self employment is to be working in the family firm like

Prince Philip has been doing. Years ago, the Queen Mother reached 80 and

90, I remember my poor mother saying, well, she looks great but I

would look that good if I had not washed a cup in my life! I do agree.

I don't think the Royal family can set the norm for anything because

they are abnormal people. Quite literally an extraordinary group of

people living in utter luxury in return for some pleasant social

activity. Some quite boring, on some occasions! I don't think you would

do the job. This is hardly heavy lifting. Certainly not real work. I

think the Queen did a good job in 2011 in Ireland. Much appreciated in

Ireland. A lot of people change their view of the British Royal

family because of that. I think the Queen has been a munificent public

servant with the younger royals can take an example from her. They have

quit their military careers already and seem to be far more interested

in endless holidays. I think you will find he has stopped his career

as a rescue helicopter pilots because he is going to do full-time

royal duties. This is hardly heavy lifting, especially in the context

of how hard people work nowadays. People go very early in the morning,

12 hours a day is the norm. Shorter holidays. Especially in the West,

countries including Britain. Certainly in America, one of the

hardest working countries I have lived in. Michael, employers, given

that we need to keep earning, will have to find jobs for us all?

Someone will have to find a job for a lot of people if people are

working. Raising the pension age to 68, 70 by the time people who just

entered the workforce are finished. Higher still then. People have to

realise, they have to change, to be serious, three words - work, jobs,

employment. It is employment we do not have. Work, everyone can find...

Win the robust takeover, will the older robots be put out of work by

the younger robots? Slung out by the new, shiny robots? Until they invent

fibroblast to replace us, hopefully we will all be back for the next few

weeks at least. Enjoy your summer holidays.

That's all we have time for this week.

Do join us again next week same time same place.