Foreign correspondents currently posted to London look at events in the UK through outsiders' eyes, and at how the issues of the week are being tackled around the world.
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Hello and a very warm
welcome to Dateline London. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
I'm Carrie Gracie. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
This week we discuss the Brexit
talks, look at the upcoming | 0:00:28 | 0:00:33 | |
elections in Italy and weigh
the political implications | 0:00:33 | 0:00:47 | |
in China of the possibility
of indefinite rule for | 0:00:47 | 0:00:49 | |
President Xi Jinping. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:50 | |
My guests this week are the Chinese
writer Diane Wei Liang, Ned Temko | 0:00:50 | 0:00:53 | |
of The Christian Science Monitor,
Annalisa Piras, Italian film-maker | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
and broadcaster and the American
podcaster Michael Goldfarb. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:57 | |
Welcome to you all. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:01 | |
Let's go for Brexit first. Ned, you
are watching it closely. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:08 | |
Who's up and who's down
on the Brexit escalator? | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
I suppose, Theresa May, and you
could say that much in recent | 0:01:12 | 0:01:17 | |
months, but she made a big speech on
Friday and gave us a little more | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
clarity about what she wants from
Brexit, which is to say, get out of | 0:01:20 | 0:01:26 | |
the single market, customs union,
and gave this spoken agreement which | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
will guarantee pretty much unchanged
access, she hopes, in areas of the | 0:01:29 | 0:01:34 | |
European economy and in regulatory
agencies that are important to | 0:01:34 | 0:01:38 | |
Britain. So that was good. Much more
importantly, she finally in public | 0:01:38 | 0:01:44 | |
jettisoned this kind of flippant but
obviously charming and entertaining | 0:01:44 | 0:01:49 | |
line of people like Boris Johnson
that Britain can have its cake and | 0:01:49 | 0:01:55 | |
eat it. So she said nobody's going
to get everything they want fuzzy | 0:01:55 | 0:02:02 | |
absolutely, and she said the Briton
will have to accept EU rulings, and | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
it will have to pay if it wants to
be part of the regulatory agencies. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:17 | |
The problem is that from here on
out, she's not negotiating only with | 0:02:17 | 0:02:23 | |
her own party, and now it gets
tough, because there are 27 other | 0:02:23 | 0:02:27 | |
countries. And Annalisa, what do you
make of the argument coming from | 0:02:27 | 0:02:34 | |
some Europeans but this is just UK
membership of the EU but without the | 0:02:34 | 0:02:40 | |
badge? Absolutely. It looks very
much like that. The view from | 0:02:40 | 0:02:45 | |
Brussels was less positive than what
Ned has just described, because yes, | 0:02:45 | 0:02:51 | |
she has made a shift, and it is
slightly clearer, but she cannot | 0:02:51 | 0:02:55 | |
have her cake and eat it, and she
was told that she cannot cherry | 0:02:55 | 0:02:59 | |
pick. And what she came out with was
a smaller cake with a lot of | 0:02:59 | 0:03:03 | |
cherries in it. So it's not going to
work. It feels like there is some | 0:03:03 | 0:03:11 | |
kind of constant repetition, a
tedious insistence on something that | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
is not going to happen, that is not
on the table. Not a small cake, not | 0:03:14 | 0:03:19 | |
a big cake, not the cherries, and I
think in Brussels everybody is | 0:03:19 | 0:03:26 | |
getting really, really tired. And
yet, Michael, it was welcomed widely | 0:03:26 | 0:03:31 | |
across the party. She seems to have
done what in her own party seemed if | 0:03:31 | 0:03:36 | |
not impossible then improbable to
kind of get everyone behind her with | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
the speech she made on Friday.
That's the point, isn't it? Here we | 0:03:39 | 0:03:44 | |
are, we are approaching the one-year
deadline until the date we are | 0:03:44 | 0:03:50 | |
supposed to leave the European
Union, and she is still having to | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
placate that wing of her party that
used to be called Euro-sceptic and | 0:03:53 | 0:03:59 | |
now is called Brexiteer. 25 years
ago this was going on. John Major | 0:03:59 | 0:04:03 | |
had to do this all the time. He had
eventually stand outside Downing | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
Street and say to the Cabinet, back
me or sack me, and to think that 25 | 0:04:07 | 0:04:13 | |
years later, and in some cases it is
the same people, they are still | 0:04:13 | 0:04:18 | |
holding not just their own Prime
Minister, government, to ransom, | 0:04:18 | 0:04:21 | |
they are holding the country to
ransom. Meanwhile over in Brussels | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
they are waiting to see what they
are going to do. One of the things | 0:04:24 | 0:04:29 | |
she reiterated several times in the
speech, and this is becoming a | 0:04:29 | 0:04:32 | |
mantra for the Brexiteers, take back
control of our money and our | 0:04:32 | 0:04:36 | |
borders. We are not in Europe. We
have control of our money. We are | 0:04:36 | 0:04:41 | |
not in Schengen, we have control of
our borders. And in fact putting the | 0:04:41 | 0:04:48 | |
kind of unspoken border that still
existing between Northern Ireland | 0:04:48 | 0:04:51 | |
and the Republic of Ireland back in
play as a political issue, they have | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
created a level of chaos. And one
last thing about 25 years ago. When | 0:04:55 | 0:05:01 | |
you do a negotiation in Brussels,
everybody knows nobody knows a | 0:05:01 | 0:05:06 | |
thing, because the negotiators are
professional. They keep their mouths | 0:05:06 | 0:05:11 | |
shut. We shouldn't be talking about
in public what we want and what they | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
want, because the real negotiations
happen under cover of darkness, and | 0:05:15 | 0:05:21 | |
journalists spend hours trying to
figure out exactly what... There was | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
quite a bit of detail in that speech
to be fair. It did get into the | 0:05:24 | 0:05:30 | |
nitty-gritty more than previously.
But I want to ask Diane, this is so | 0:05:30 | 0:05:36 | |
different from the politics of China
that we have been discussing. From | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
your position, what you make of the
week we have just seen in terms of | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
Theresa May's speech, in terms of
the draft legal document that we saw | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
in the EU earlier in the week? To
me, it isn't much of an escalator | 0:05:46 | 0:05:52 | |
going up and down, it is a conveyor
belt going round and round. And | 0:05:52 | 0:05:57 | |
Theresa May always says, I have made
it clear. It has never been clear. | 0:05:57 | 0:06:03 | |
And it is 20 months later, she still
has the sound bites. To me, Theresa | 0:06:03 | 0:06:09 | |
May is a typical middle manager who
has no vision, who doesn't know | 0:06:09 | 0:06:14 | |
where this thing is going and worse
yet, she is very much boxed in by | 0:06:14 | 0:06:20 | |
her party. I agree with Michael, she
is still doing internal politics | 0:06:20 | 0:06:28 | |
within the Tory party. This is the
point where the country needs | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
leadership. She hasn't provided that
leadership for the past 20 months. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:35 | |
She is not providing it now. OK,
let's move on. I know many of our | 0:06:35 | 0:06:48 | |
viewers will have opinions on this.
If you want to give us your opinions | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
on Brexit, Du Toit us, send an
e-mail. Diane was talking about a | 0:06:52 | 0:06:57 | |
country that she sees as having a
middle manager for a leader, so | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
let's move to the country that she
is most interested in, which is of | 0:07:00 | 0:07:03 | |
course China. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
The Chinese communist
party has proposed | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
that the current two-term limit
for the presidency should be lifted. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:11 | |
In this one-party state,
what the communist party says goes. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:16 | |
The national congress opens
on Monday, so this dramatic | 0:07:16 | 0:07:18 | |
change could be imminent. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:21 | |
In China and around the world,
the question is being asked - | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
does 64-year-old Xi Jinping intend
to be president for life? | 0:07:24 | 0:07:29 | |
Diane, I'm going to go straight back
to you. You see, this is what we see | 0:07:29 | 0:07:35 | |
as for the Chinese, a strongman,
strong leadership, however, is this | 0:07:35 | 0:07:39 | |
really what we call leadership, or
just a power grab? Xi Jinping | 0:07:39 | 0:07:43 | |
certainly has the ambition to be the
ruler of China for a life long time. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:50 | |
This for someone who had grown up
under Mao's commenters is a clear | 0:07:50 | 0:08:00 | |
step back in history. Why is it a
step backwards? A lot of outsiders | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
will say, it is that type of
totalitarian autocratic thing going | 0:08:04 | 0:08:07 | |
on in China for decades, don't they
have a 1-party state anyway, what's | 0:08:07 | 0:08:13 | |
the difference? The differences, if
you look at how China developed in | 0:08:13 | 0:08:17 | |
the past 30 years, the reason China
could prosper was because Max three | 0:08:17 | 0:08:27 | |
put in reforms after Chairman Mao's
death, the first was to move into a | 0:08:27 | 0:08:40 | |
single economy, and the second was
to put an end to the single person | 0:08:40 | 0:08:48 | |
rule until death, which very much
collapse the economy and one of the | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
most populous countries of the
world. So we have a collective | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
leadership since the late 1970s. We
have fixed term successions, every | 0:08:54 | 0:09:00 | |
ten years the leadership gets thrown
out and a new one comes in. And yet | 0:09:00 | 0:09:07 | |
Xioaping who you mentioned who was
the supreme league who came behind | 0:09:07 | 0:09:12 | |
Chairman Mao, he only ever led the
Bridge Association in the last few | 0:09:12 | 0:09:15 | |
years of his life, yet he was
paramount leader. Why does Xi | 0:09:15 | 0:09:19 | |
Jinping need the title of president
any longer? Can't he have his years | 0:09:19 | 0:09:24 | |
in the spotlight and then move
behind the curtain? Xi Jinping has | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
had lots of years in the sun, but
this is a man who grew up in the | 0:09:28 | 0:09:35 | |
isolated compound. He is the son of
one of the great ten marshals in | 0:09:35 | 0:09:40 | |
China who founded Chinese commenters
-- Communism. So he grew up with | 0:09:40 | 0:09:49 | |
this entitlement that he belongs to
that elite, and he sees duty, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:54 | |
perhaps his destiny, to rule China
and to rule China with absolute | 0:09:54 | 0:09:59 | |
power. Yet his supporters would say
that's not fair, that this is a man | 0:09:59 | 0:10:03 | |
with a vision, it's a vision for a
huge country, a superpower on the | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
rise, and it will take time and
central control to put that vision | 0:10:07 | 0:10:12 | |
in place, and that's why he needs to
stay on in power longer than his | 0:10:12 | 0:10:15 | |
allotted ten years. The problem with
personalised leadership is that then | 0:10:15 | 0:10:22 | |
you are discounting all the
institutions which China doesn't | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
have very many to begin with, and
then you create this leadership that | 0:10:25 | 0:10:31 | |
would be more risky in terms of
policy-making. What was to say, Xi | 0:10:31 | 0:10:39 | |
Jinping could decide to push the red
button one day. And it creates, in | 0:10:39 | 0:10:46 | |
the long-term, instability, a
vacuum, because there is no one who | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
would be in succession. Let's open
this act now to ever be us. Ned, | 0:10:51 | 0:10:55 | |
China is no longer the inward
looking isolated country it was at | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
the death of Mao. It is a huge
superpower with influence in every | 0:10:59 | 0:11:03 | |
corner of the globe. What are the
risks here, are there any for the | 0:11:03 | 0:11:08 | |
rest of us? I think there is a risk
for the world, and I don't want to | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
overstate this notion of China
taking over the world, but there are | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
initiatives, there is obviously a
huge expansion, not only just | 0:11:15 | 0:11:19 | |
politically, but in terms of trade,
economics, infrastructure, by China | 0:11:19 | 0:11:23 | |
in the wider world. I think the
danger is more general, that there | 0:11:23 | 0:11:29 | |
is a kind of dawning of an age of
new authoritarianism. You had people | 0:11:29 | 0:11:34 | |
like Erdogan in Turkey, you have
term limits, you have Putin in | 0:11:34 | 0:11:40 | |
Moscow doing his Soviet shtick
before the election, we have bigger | 0:11:40 | 0:11:47 | |
missiles than you do. And there was
always a balance of kind of this | 0:11:47 | 0:11:53 | |
ballast of Western European
democracy and particularly the | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
United States, an imperfect country
that sometimes did imperfect things, | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
but when it was present in the
international arena, and when it was | 0:11:59 | 0:12:06 | |
led in such a way that the world
looked to it the leadership, there | 0:12:06 | 0:12:12 | |
was always a kind of curb an overly
imbalanced trends like this. So you | 0:12:12 | 0:12:20 | |
see an American vacuum? I see an
America in retreat and an American | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
absence to often from international
affairs. Let's put it to the other | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
part-time American around the table.
Michael? You know, I think it's | 0:12:29 | 0:12:34 | |
fascinating to listen to Diane talk
about this, because it reminded me | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
of a man I know in China who was
born in a mud hut village in 1956, | 0:12:37 | 0:12:45 | |
57, we learn famine, tens of
millions died, he was ready for | 0:12:45 | 0:12:51 | |
university at the time of the
cultural Revolution and didn't get | 0:12:51 | 0:12:56 | |
to university until he was in his
30s. Now he is a professor of | 0:12:56 | 0:13:01 | |
philosophy, he makes a terrific
living, his standard of living is | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
every bit the equal of mine. And I
do wonder if enough millions of | 0:13:03 | 0:13:08 | |
people also tell that story if they
would have a different view about | 0:13:08 | 0:13:11 | |
the Chinese leadership. We in the
West from the moment the Soviet | 0:13:11 | 0:13:17 | |
Union collapsed decided that we were
all going to be in republican | 0:13:17 | 0:13:23 | |
democracies, we were all going to
vote and so on, but if you look at | 0:13:23 | 0:13:27 | |
it historically, neither China nor
Russia has a long tradition of | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
electoral democratic politics. It's
not surprising that 25 years after | 0:13:32 | 0:13:37 | |
this all began, and with two or
three global economic crises, the | 0:13:37 | 0:13:45 | |
strongmen decide to be strong. The
question I was asking is, do you see | 0:13:45 | 0:13:50 | |
risks? Of course there is a risk.
China is irrelevant to all of us in | 0:13:50 | 0:13:56 | |
very deep Weisner, and looking back
at its imperial or communist | 0:13:56 | 0:13:59 | |
history, succession in China is a
dangerous time, so Xi Jinping is 64, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:06 | |
his health is good, but what happens
if something happens to him? This is | 0:14:06 | 0:14:12 | |
the problem, and Martyn Woolford in
the Financial Times had an excellent | 0:14:12 | 0:14:15 | |
essay about that very point this
week. Two points, one is that rivers | 0:14:15 | 0:14:23 | |
of corruption flow to the leader. We
see it a little bit in Washington, | 0:14:23 | 0:14:28 | |
where people who know Trump
personally get deals, get out of | 0:14:28 | 0:14:32 | |
steel just before he slaps a tariff
on it. That is a danger, and then | 0:14:32 | 0:14:39 | |
there is the succession question.
When he is 80, is he going to swim | 0:14:39 | 0:14:44 | |
across the river to prove he is
still hale and hearty? Then you | 0:14:44 | 0:14:49 | |
create a succession problem. The
wisdom of the 10-year thing from | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
Deng Xioaping has been, I have got
ten years, and then I can continue | 0:14:52 | 0:14:57 | |
to have political power behind the
scenes. This is inviting a potential | 0:14:57 | 0:15:03 | |
problem, but it is also a potential
problem that may not come, he is 64 | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
and looks very vigorous, but it may
not come for quite some time. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:11 | |
Annalisa, what about the question
that Ned raised in a way, what about | 0:15:11 | 0:15:15 | |
the question for Europe? Liberal
democracy, it is who we believe in | 0:15:15 | 0:15:20 | |
Europe that we are and the UK, and
yet this shift as Ned describes it | 0:15:20 | 0:15:26 | |
to authoritarians? It is extremely
worrying of course for the rest of | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
the world, because China has given
over and over again evidence that it | 0:15:30 | 0:15:37 | |
is supporting a kind of expansionist
Dyk territorial policy. It is | 0:15:37 | 0:15:47 | |
increasing its military spending
massively, so it is very bad news | 0:15:47 | 0:15:49 | |
for the rest of the world. We are
seeing like the Europe was formed at | 0:15:49 | 0:16:04 | |
the end of the Second World War. It
now has a very historic role to play | 0:16:04 | 0:16:10 | |
because the European Union is based
on international rules and it is | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
based on the fact that everybody
plays by the rules. In the world | 0:16:13 | 0:16:20 | |
that looks like it is breaking bad,
there is a strong need for Europeans | 0:16:20 | 0:16:24 | |
to wake up and smell the coffee and
say, we need to respect a form of | 0:16:24 | 0:16:30 | |
shared rules around the world. Let's
move back now to European politics. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:36 | |
To Italy, and another strongman
in the spotlight, because Italians | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
go to the polls this weekend. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
Some observers expect a return
to centre stage for 81-year-old | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
billionaire and four-times
Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:54 | |
Let's put that straight back to
Annalisa. Do you expect is blocked | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
to win? All the polls point to that,
I'm afraid. They point to nobody | 0:16:57 | 0:17:08 | |
really having an outright majority,
but a coalition led by Silvio | 0:17:08 | 0:17:13 | |
Berlusconi is set to get the highest
number of votes. Which is kind of on | 0:17:13 | 0:17:20 | |
the face of it amazing, end that you
have someone who is currently not | 0:17:20 | 0:17:27 | |
allowed to serve in politics because
of his history, all the so-called | 0:17:27 | 0:17:35 | |
bunga bunga parties, and you ask,
how can we have this, it seems a bit | 0:17:35 | 0:17:42 | |
dissident to be re-electing and
81-year-old with this history? | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
Dissonant, yes, but not entirely. If
you think about it, Berlusconi is | 0:17:47 | 0:17:58 | |
the original populist, you think
about the similarities between him | 0:17:58 | 0:18:02 | |
and Trump, so it is coming back,
nationalism is coming back, | 0:18:02 | 0:18:05 | |
xenophobia is coming back. His brand
of populism is very attractive, and | 0:18:05 | 0:18:09 | |
he is also the devil you know. If
you have been in that long in | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
politics, 30 years, you move from
being a newcomer to being a | 0:18:13 | 0:18:18 | |
statesman. A national treasure!
National treasure, but having said | 0:18:18 | 0:18:23 | |
that, it would probably be a
disaster, because the coalition that | 0:18:23 | 0:18:29 | |
he has put together is the same but
failed miserably when he was last | 0:18:29 | 0:18:32 | |
time in power, so you have got the
extreme right, the fascist that in | 0:18:32 | 0:18:38 | |
these times are even more extreme
than they used to be. They have been | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
emboldened by the anti-migrant
feeling which in Italy is very, very | 0:18:42 | 0:18:47 | |
strong. And very strong I suppose
because a lot of migrants are coming | 0:18:47 | 0:18:51 | |
over the sea from Africa and their
first stop is Italy. More than | 0:18:51 | 0:18:56 | |
630,000 people from Africa have come
to Italy in the last few years and | 0:18:56 | 0:19:03 | |
it has a massive impact on the
political landscape, so Berlusconi | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
is leading this coalition of the
Northern league that is xenophobic | 0:19:07 | 0:19:12 | |
and racist, they want to deport ever
be overnight, and the fascists which | 0:19:12 | 0:19:16 | |
are very extreme as well. And they
do not really get along. So if he | 0:19:16 | 0:19:23 | |
ever manages to form a government,
it is going to be very tricky. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
Michael, you follow Italy. What is
your take on all of this? For the | 0:19:27 | 0:19:31 | |
last two years, we have heard two
things. One is the 5-star movement | 0:19:31 | 0:19:35 | |
which will probably get the most
votes. For people less familiar with | 0:19:35 | 0:19:38 | |
that? That was started by Beppe
Grillo, who is a comedian, and he | 0:19:38 | 0:19:49 | |
has stepped back now because it is a
serious party and he is not a | 0:19:49 | 0:19:53 | |
serious person. The 5-star party
runs Rome? They have Rome, and they | 0:19:53 | 0:20:02 | |
have to Turin, but they have not
been very successful. When you have | 0:20:02 | 0:20:14 | |
the power, and you're not
successful, what does that do to | 0:20:14 | 0:20:17 | |
your vote? The current government
has been successful in terms of | 0:20:17 | 0:20:19 | |
pulling Italy out from the deep,
deep economic crisis but it was in | 0:20:19 | 0:20:25 | |
in 2011 when the Europe crisis hit
it almost as hard as it hit Greece. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:31 | |
And now that the economy is growing
reasonably well... Not that well. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:38 | |
No, but in comparison to where it
was five or six years ago, and | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
unemployment is down. This is
traditionally the route to electoral | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
success. And the fact that he is not
being successful says to me that yet | 0:20:45 | 0:20:55 | |
again there is another centre left
party that doesn't have a | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
charismatic leader, that isn't able
to pull together the necessary | 0:20:59 | 0:21:03 | |
coalition of voters to win
elections, and I think that is true | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
in the US where the Democrats
somehow couldn't beat Donald Trump, | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
and even here where Jeremy Corbyn is
polling well, but it is clear that | 0:21:09 | 0:21:15 | |
he has pulled together enough votes.
So what is coming? It is not just | 0:21:15 | 0:21:20 | |
leadership. Annalisa is right to
point out the importance of | 0:21:20 | 0:21:24 | |
immigration, asylum. Those are
issues that are not only coming to | 0:21:24 | 0:21:29 | |
the fore in Europe, they are easily
weaponised by populist, nationalist | 0:21:29 | 0:21:33 | |
nativists. You raise the point of
the EU's challenge in kind of coming | 0:21:33 | 0:21:40 | |
together in the landscape we see in
the wider world. One of the | 0:21:40 | 0:21:44 | |
interesting things is that in
addition to not liking immigrants, | 0:21:44 | 0:21:48 | |
asylum seekers, etc, these parties
tend to not much like the European | 0:21:48 | 0:21:54 | |
Union either. And you wonder whether
there will be a kind of drifting | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
apart... That is a consideration,
but you need more Europe, but the | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
crisis of the European society, you
can use Europe as a scapegoat for a | 0:22:04 | 0:22:11 | |
lot of problems. But the thing about
Italy is that contrary to most | 0:22:11 | 0:22:18 | |
popular parties in the rest of
Europe, the Italian populist | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
parties, they are not Euro-sceptic.
They are almost all in agreement | 0:22:22 | 0:22:27 | |
that if Italy is to get out of its
economic weaknesses, the last thing | 0:22:27 | 0:22:30 | |
they need is to get out of the
European Union. Diane, you were at | 0:22:30 | 0:22:35 | |
the start kind of criticising
Theresa May for being a middle | 0:22:35 | 0:22:38 | |
manager rather than a strong leader.
When you look at this Italian | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
electoral story and the possible
comeback of Silvio Berlusconi and | 0:22:41 | 0:22:45 | |
the discussion about the lack of
strong leadership in the centre | 0:22:45 | 0:22:48 | |
left, what is your take on that?
Italy to me is not one conveyor | 0:22:48 | 0:22:56 | |
belts, there are ten conveyor belts,
and the Italian government is always | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
changing, there are always
elections, always new governments, | 0:23:00 | 0:23:05 | |
and there are political issues such
as immigration. Italy has a serious | 0:23:05 | 0:23:11 | |
problem with fundamental economic
issues, and Italy has not been | 0:23:11 | 0:23:16 | |
growing in real terms for the past
ten years. And as the eighth largest | 0:23:16 | 0:23:21 | |
economy in the world, Italians are
not seeing the benefit of economic | 0:23:21 | 0:23:26 | |
recovery. And I think that is a
major issue for Italy. Whoever wins | 0:23:26 | 0:23:31 | |
the election. They need to start
governing. They need to start | 0:23:31 | 0:23:38 | |
reforming the country. It has a lot
of institutional issues embedded | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
with the economy. And do you see a
contrast them with China? Very | 0:23:41 | 0:23:45 | |
economically successful in the past
30 years without any elections. You | 0:23:45 | 0:23:49 | |
are describing a world with too many
elections to handle, which is | 0:23:49 | 0:23:53 | |
economically unsuccessful. Is that
contrast that you would recognise? | 0:23:53 | 0:23:58 | |
This is something that the Chinese
government very much utilises in | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
their rhetoric. Look at the rest of
the world, we used a look to | 0:24:01 | 0:24:09 | |
America, the West, Europe, for
inspiration, but a lot of elections, | 0:24:09 | 0:24:14 | |
a lot of politics, and we need
stability. We need a strong leader. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:18 | |
We need to focus on economic... We
are running out of time, but just a | 0:24:18 | 0:24:23 | |
quick word from the body on what we
come to the end of this programme, | 0:24:23 | 0:24:26 | |
which is almost a look at the
political model. Who wants to go | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
first. Annalisa? Certainly as an
Italian and looking at the Italian | 0:24:30 | 0:24:35 | |
model, there are serious doubts
about how representative democracy | 0:24:35 | 0:24:41 | |
has been serving the interests of
the Italian citizens. And there is | 0:24:41 | 0:24:46 | |
more and more a reflection and
debate about what has happened in | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
China. As in, people admiring the
Chinese model? People asking | 0:24:49 | 0:24:55 | |
themselves, the long-term planning,
this kind of determination in | 0:24:55 | 0:25:01 | |
pushing something regardless of the
ins and outs of the political | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
instability, is this something that
we need to look at? It is a heresy | 0:25:04 | 0:25:10 | |
because we believe in democracy.
Indeed. Michael, a quick word? It is | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
about national purpose. In the 25
years after the Second World War, | 0:25:14 | 0:25:19 | |
America had unparalleled growth.
They made up for the great | 0:25:19 | 0:25:21 | |
depression and the dislocation of
the Second World War. I grew up in | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
that period, and ever since then it
has been a slow decline. China has | 0:25:24 | 0:25:29 | |
even longer to make up for. It has
people as I was describing earlier | 0:25:29 | 0:25:33 | |
to Diane who have national purpose,
and I don't think they think too | 0:25:33 | 0:25:36 | |
much about the politics of the
situation, but eventually they will | 0:25:36 | 0:25:41 | |
reach full capacity, too, and they
will have time to reflect on | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
politics. Ned? I am not in favour of
abolishing terms Fred Trump! Be | 0:25:44 | 0:25:50 | |
careful what you wish for. Those of
us who have worked in countries as | 0:25:50 | 0:25:57 | |
foreign correspondents. You have
been in the Soviet Union before... | 0:25:57 | 0:26:02 | |
Was it Churchill who said that
democracy is the worst form of | 0:26:02 | 0:26:07 | |
government except every other form.
And on that very important and | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
thoughtful point, we will have to
leave it. Thank you all so very much | 0:26:09 | 0:26:14 | |
for coming in. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:16 | |
That's all we have time for. | 0:26:16 | 0:26:17 | |
Do join us next week,
same time same place. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:19 | |
But for now, thank you for
watching and goodbye. | 0:26:19 | 0:26:22 |