Browse content similar to 10/03/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
Welcome. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:28 | |
This is Dateline London,
the programme which brings together | 0:00:28 | 0:00:30 | |
international correspondents based
here with British columnists | 0:00:30 | 0:00:31 | |
who write about the world beyond. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:33 | |
It's been a week in which the old
Cold War powers appear to be | 0:00:33 | 0:00:36 | |
flexing their muscles, and Europeans
fear what it may mean for them. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
Donald Trump - trade
warrior and peace maker? | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
Was someone in Russia responsible
for the poisoning on an English | 0:00:42 | 0:00:44 | |
street of a double-agent? | 0:00:44 | 0:00:46 | |
And, after Italians deliver
the political mainstream another | 0:00:46 | 0:00:50 | |
drubbing, are Europe's leaders
capable of fighting back? | 0:00:50 | 0:00:54 | |
With me: Yasmin Alibhai Brown,
who came to the UK as a refugee | 0:00:54 | 0:00:57 | |
from a hostile country and is now
a political commentator. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
Agnes Poirier of the
French news magazine | 0:01:00 | 0:01:02 | |
Marianne. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:03 | |
Stephanie Baker, US
journalist writing from here | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
for Bloomberg Markets. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
Ian Birrell, columnist
with the British newspaper | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
The Mail on Sunday. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:14 | |
A warm welcome to you all, good to
have you with us again. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:19 | |
The news that Donald Trump
is to meet Kim Jong-Un, | 0:01:19 | 0:01:21 | |
the North Korean leader,
to discuss reducing the nuclear | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
threat surprised many. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:24 | |
Only hours earlier he'd been
posing as a warrior, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
at least in trade terms -
signing into law tariffs aimed | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
at repelling imports
of steel and aluminium. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
"Trade wars are good and easy
to win", President Trump tweeted. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:34 | |
Six months ago, the President warned
he could unleash "fire, fury and, | 0:01:34 | 0:01:37 | |
frankly, power" against Pyongyang. | 0:01:37 | 0:01:40 | |
Perhaps the summit with Kim suggest
that's a war Mr Trump | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
doesn't think he can win. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:51 | |
Ian, is it evident that his
combination of mockery and threats | 0:01:51 | 0:01:55 | |
has delivered? No, I think obviously
the positive and optimistic hope of | 0:01:55 | 0:02:01 | |
this is that two mavericks might
make a deal. But I think it's highly | 0:02:01 | 0:02:05 | |
unlikely. I think the truth is,
Trump has a habit of being boastful | 0:02:05 | 0:02:10 | |
and bragging and and and e-fit very
different things are happening. Here | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
he has gone out on a limb, we are
seeing him grow back a bit in | 0:02:13 | 0:02:18 | |
America, he has gone out on a limb
and promised this, giving away with | 0:02:18 | 0:02:22 | |
one of his cards, just like with
recognition of Jerusalem. The truth | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
is, they are talking about very
different things. Trump wants to see | 0:02:26 | 0:02:30 | |
nuclear weapon is removed from
Pyongyang. Qian Yan will not do | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
that, it is a vile state run by a
very small elite and they depend on | 0:02:34 | 0:02:39 | |
the nuclear weapons for safety. You
have been to both North and South | 0:02:39 | 0:02:44 | |
Korea? I spent a long time with
dissidents, somebody in the special | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
forces with North Korea, he said
that during the sunshine policy, | 0:02:48 | 0:02:52 | |
which won a Nobel Prize, they were
ramping up ideas of how to attack | 0:02:52 | 0:02:57 | |
cities in the south, how to use
nerve agents, building up stockpiles | 0:02:57 | 0:03:02 | |
of nuclear and biological weapons.
They are talking about very | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
different things. North Korea are
talking about things such as | 0:03:05 | 0:03:11 | |
demilitarisation, denuclearisation
of the Korean peninsular and a | 0:03:11 | 0:03:13 | |
removal of the threat. What they are
releasing, they don't want America | 0:03:13 | 0:03:17 | |
and American weapons on the
peninsula. It is a very different | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
thing. People always talk, they want
to hear talks, they want to see | 0:03:20 | 0:03:24 | |
people getting around the table
together. But nobody comes up with, | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
where is the deal? There is no deal,
because Pyongyang will not remove | 0:03:28 | 0:03:33 | |
its weaponry and can't be trusted.
And the world can't give anything to | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
help. Is Kim Jong-un playing Donald
Trump? I think that is the fear. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:49 | |
Sceptics have said that he could be
walking into a clap. And Trump, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:52 | |
because he is very confident, thinks
that this is a sales job and he can | 0:03:52 | 0:03:55 | |
market his way out of it. It is
consistent with the reality TV show | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
formats of the presidency. That, you
know, he loves to surprise, he loves | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
the unconventional, he loves to be
first to do something. In this case, | 0:04:02 | 0:04:06 | |
the first time a sitting US
president meets with a North Korean | 0:04:06 | 0:04:10 | |
leader. There has been speculation
in the US that this was an attempt | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
to distract from a more damaging
story, this alleged hush money paid | 0:04:13 | 0:04:21 | |
to this pornography star, headlines
about Stormy Daniels were dominating | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
and this is a way to push those
down. This is an actress who claims | 0:04:24 | 0:04:30 | |
that she had a relationship with
Trump, but he has denied a. His | 0:04:30 | 0:04:33 | |
lawyer paid her off before the US
election. Some people are saying, if | 0:04:33 | 0:04:40 | |
he can't do an airtight deal with a
pornography star, how is he going to | 0:04:40 | 0:04:47 | |
do a deal with North Korea?! The
White House has suffered | 0:04:47 | 0:04:52 | |
unprecedented departures in
turnover, the State Department is | 0:04:52 | 0:04:55 | |
not operating at full capacity, we
don't have an ambassador to South | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
Korea or an Assistant Secretary of
State for Asia. The person on point | 0:04:59 | 0:05:04 | |
for North Korea stepped down in
frustration. Rex Tillerson was | 0:05:04 | 0:05:08 | |
blindsided by this and not
consulted. If you are going to do a | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
deal with North Korea, you do need
to prepare. Of course, diplomacy is | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
better than the sort of schoolyard
taunts on Twitter, but this is a | 0:05:16 | 0:05:20 | |
high risk gamble that may not pay
off. What about Ian's point about | 0:05:20 | 0:05:26 | |
mavericks, mavericks can we the
rules" we have got these two | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
gorillas, really, who are really
shaping up for a fight or a victory. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:36 | |
But I disagree with what he and has
just said. We were thinking of how | 0:05:36 | 0:05:41 | |
we might disagree exact but I do
disagree, over 60 years, the Korean | 0:05:41 | 0:05:47 | |
Bird's Hill has been in this
situation. What was really moving | 0:05:47 | 0:05:50 | |
was to see how the people on both
sides came together. They wanted to | 0:05:50 | 0:05:53 | |
come together over the Winter
Olympic Games. And I think one has | 0:05:53 | 0:06:01 | |
to think of a way to demilitarise
the entire zone. The US has no | 0:06:01 | 0:06:06 | |
business being there anyway. And
Japan now has two rethink its own | 0:06:06 | 0:06:10 | |
policies on defence. But I certainly
think that this doesn't come out of | 0:06:10 | 0:06:16 | |
anything sensible like that, it
comes out of these two men, who are | 0:06:16 | 0:06:21 | |
arguably the least rational and most
macho men upon the planet. Two meant | 0:06:21 | 0:06:27 | |
Yasmine is not going to invite
around 40! I think, you know, you | 0:06:27 | 0:06:32 | |
save a North Korean leader is
rational, I have the feeling he is | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
pretty rational, he's ruthless --
Jasmine is not going to invite them | 0:06:36 | 0:06:40 | |
around 40. I don't think Rocket
Man... I don't think he is | 0:06:40 | 0:06:46 | |
ridiculous at all. The idea actually
comes from him. I like his father | 0:06:46 | 0:06:51 | |
and grandfather, he's going to be
treated as an equal. You know, his | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
strange family has been ruling. And
years. And the Korean -- for 70 | 0:06:55 | 0:07:01 | |
years. The war hasn't officially
ended. I agree with you when you | 0:07:01 | 0:07:07 | |
save or is room for massive
misunderstanding. I think the | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
sanctions are beginning to bite and
this is the reason why came once you | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
have some time. -- Y Kim Jong-un
wants to have some time. It happened | 0:07:15 | 0:07:20 | |
by former Jimmy Carter and Madeleine
Albright, it's been going on for | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
decades. Each time North Korea says,
OK, we're not going to suspend... | 0:07:24 | 0:07:29 | |
But I'm saying it's nothing to do
with him or Trump in that sense, | 0:07:29 | 0:07:34 | |
they are playing games with each
other. They want to be whatever they | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
think they can be. You are right
about the first, you know, I'm on | 0:07:37 | 0:07:43 | |
telly, and always the start of my
own drama, what goes on. Ian has | 0:07:43 | 0:07:49 | |
done programmes on it, and other
journalists do, what goes on in | 0:07:49 | 0:07:53 | |
North Korea is just so shocking, and
we don't know half of it, really. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
I'm not defending the country, but I
do think the people of these two | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
careers need a break. But we don't
talk about China and Japan. China | 0:08:01 | 0:08:09 | |
doesn't want to see the US have more
say than China. But China has been | 0:08:09 | 0:08:15 | |
retreating. Usually it was the
choice, you know, the first choice | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
for North Korea. So this is really,
you know, the Asian countries, how | 0:08:18 | 0:08:26 | |
they going to react? They have got
something to play that. Also, we | 0:08:26 | 0:08:30 | |
must not fall for the PR of North
Korea. The reality is, it is such a | 0:08:30 | 0:08:36 | |
tightly restricted country, you have
to be part of the elite even to live | 0:08:36 | 0:08:40 | |
in Pyongyang, you need paperwork to
go anywhere in the country. The only | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
people to come out are members of
the elite. The elite are doing very | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
well there. The rest of society is
being crossed. At the core of it, it | 0:08:47 | 0:08:52 | |
is the world's worst regime. It is
not just hype and propaganda. This | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
is a country which runs death camps
and have been accused by the UN of | 0:08:56 | 0:09:03 | |
breaking also also rules. But the
people on both sides are desperate. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:08 | |
Divided countries help nobody in the
end. Long-term, 100 years from now, | 0:09:08 | 0:09:13 | |
one wishes to see a united Korea.
I'm going to be ruthless now and | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
we're going to move on. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:21 | |
A week ago, perhaps
as you were watching this programme, | 0:09:21 | 0:09:23 | |
a man and his daughter collapsed
onto a bench in an English cathedral | 0:09:23 | 0:09:26 | |
city. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:28 | |
Sergei Skripal was a Russian
former double agent, | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
jailed by Moscow and then
freed in a spy swap. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:32 | |
He's lived quietly
in the UK ever since. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:34 | |
The use of nerve agent prompted
suspicion of state-sponsored | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
poisoning, not exactly discouraged
by the presenter on state television | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
who warned Russian traitors -
"don't go to England, something | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
is not right there". | 0:09:43 | 0:09:46 | |
Yasmin, what's wrong? Well, I think
it is... This is not a surprise. We | 0:09:46 | 0:09:52 | |
don't know. I keep hearing, we don't
have the full facts. I don't even | 0:09:52 | 0:09:56 | |
know if we ever will have the kind
of evidence that people need to | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
prove whether it came from, who did
what. We still don't know what | 0:10:00 | 0:10:06 | |
happened to Litvinenko, we don't
know what properly happened that. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
This man was killed in 2006 because
of polonium, nobody can actually say | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
for certain who killed him. The son
of the man who's just been killed by | 0:10:14 | 0:10:20 | |
in mysterious circumstances last
year in Saint Petersburg. We don't | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
know. But what we do know is that
Putin asked for the law to be | 0:10:24 | 0:10:31 | |
changed at one point so that
traitors who had fled abroad could | 0:10:31 | 0:10:33 | |
be cut down. So, I see connections
between those kind of ambitions and | 0:10:33 | 0:10:39 | |
what we see. And why did they move
to Salisbury? This really is a | 0:10:39 | 0:10:43 | |
question!
LAUGHTER | 0:10:43 | 0:10:50 | |
It is near Porton Down, the research
establishment for chemical and | 0:10:50 | 0:10:54 | |
biological weapons. Britain is
really a magnet for all spy stories. | 0:10:54 | 0:10:58 | |
There is something in the British
psyche that attracts that, but | 0:10:58 | 0:11:02 | |
that's another programme. What is
striking is that you could have | 0:11:02 | 0:11:05 | |
thought that this man was safe. You
know, he was a double agent, he | 0:11:05 | 0:11:11 | |
admitted to his crime, he had been
sentenced and officially pardoned | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
and been the object of a swap, so
everything is fine. So now they are | 0:11:14 | 0:11:19 | |
digging up his wife's two -- grave
and his son. People are wearing | 0:11:19 | 0:11:26 | |
hazmat suit in case there is any
contamination. Whoever did it, I | 0:11:26 | 0:11:32 | |
think the connections are pretty
right, I mean, it's extremely | 0:11:32 | 0:11:37 | |
frightening. You know, they say we
can out strike whenever we want and | 0:11:37 | 0:11:46 | |
whoever we want, and there's nothing
much you can do. I have the feeling | 0:11:46 | 0:11:52 | |
that if in 2006, almost 12 years
ago, if the British Government had | 0:11:52 | 0:11:56 | |
reacted more forcefully, perhaps
they wouldn't have considered it | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
twice before doing what they did in
Salisbury. But it's going to take | 0:11:59 | 0:12:05 | |
another ten years, you know, we're
starting the major and long-lasting | 0:12:05 | 0:12:08 | |
inquiry. We will know more in ten
years' time. But we can just shut | 0:12:08 | 0:12:14 | |
down their bank accounts. This is
the point. London, the UK, has more | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
power than many Western countries
because of the amount of Russian | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
money that flows through London. And
so if they want to make the Russians | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
pay, they've got the ability to. And
the local MP who is a government | 0:12:29 | 0:12:35 | |
minister and also happens to be in
the British Treasury, the British | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
finance ministry, but something on
social media to say, there are | 0:12:38 | 0:12:43 | |
financial measures, this is one of
the weapons that could be used. They | 0:12:43 | 0:12:48 | |
haven't implemented the legislation
to make the Litvinenko law take | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
effect. To seize assets even before
proof? This would allow them to | 0:12:51 | 0:12:57 | |
blacklist Russian individuals with
ties to human rights abuses or | 0:12:57 | 0:13:00 | |
Russian government officials that
they have traced to nefarious | 0:13:00 | 0:13:05 | |
activities. So they could push ahead
with that, and they really need to. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:10 | |
And if they do, you know, narrow
down the cause of this and who was | 0:13:10 | 0:13:14 | |
responsible, there should be much
stronger response, I agree with | 0:13:14 | 0:13:18 | |
that. The response to Litvinenko was
not strong enough. They should | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
consider a boycott of the World Cup,
which is an incredibly important... | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
It is due to open this summer in
Russia. It is an incredibly | 0:13:26 | 0:13:31 | |
important event for Putin, is a his
moment on the international stage. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:35 | |
That is a way to make him pay. One
of the Government Security ministers | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
were saying on Saturday morning,
someone has come onto our soil who | 0:13:39 | 0:13:43 | |
has recklessly and brazenly
committed -- in nasty crime using a | 0:13:43 | 0:13:53 | |
nerve agent, you have to act in
those circumstances? There are three | 0:13:53 | 0:13:58 | |
certainties. President Putin wiggles
away and finds cracks in Western | 0:13:58 | 0:14:00 | |
societies and is pushing his
right-wing malevolent creed, in | 0:14:00 | 0:14:05 | |
Syria he is warming and killing
thousands of people. He did the | 0:14:05 | 0:14:10 | |
first annexation on European soil
and shot down a civilian airliner, | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
he kills lots of his enemies. The
second certainty is that Britain | 0:14:13 | 0:14:17 | |
will continue to talk tough and do
nothing. We did nothing over | 0:14:17 | 0:14:21 | |
Ukraine, really, few sanctions here
and there. The third thing is very | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
clear, Britain is the capital of
dirty money in the world. All of the | 0:14:25 | 0:14:31 | |
money is washed here by British
lawyers, estate agents and bankers | 0:14:31 | 0:14:35 | |
and sanctioned by British
politicians. If Britain wants to | 0:14:35 | 0:14:37 | |
take tough action instead of
registering state-controlled Mafia | 0:14:37 | 0:14:43 | |
is basically companies that are
operating here instead of allowing | 0:14:43 | 0:14:45 | |
all of this money to washed through
here, Britain will do nothing and | 0:14:45 | 0:14:49 | |
carry on taking the money. And it is
to our shame. All we are about is | 0:14:49 | 0:14:54 | |
money now. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:59 | |
Italy's national election may not
have delivered a government yet, | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
but there was a clear
winner - populism. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:04 | |
Between them, 69% of voters
supported parties that have | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
challenged the political mainstream. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:07 | |
It isn't just Italy. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:08 | |
From Germany to Greece,
from the Netherlands to Hungary, | 0:15:08 | 0:15:10 | |
a consensus that held
since the collapse of | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
the Eastern Bloc 30 years
appears to be breaking up. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
Angela Merkel, now that Germany
has a government again, | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
albeit one from a shrunken political
centre, says she'll roll | 0:15:19 | 0:15:22 | |
up her sleeves to begin reform
of the European Union. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:24 | |
France's Emmanuel Macron, a rare
mainstream winner of the last year, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
even suggested post-Brexit Britain
would soon be hammering on the EU's | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
door, pleading to be let back in. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:35 | |
Is that a case of hubris? Can I
unpick that narrative of doom and | 0:15:35 | 0:15:41 | |
gloom and populism in golfing Europe
that you find mainly in the British | 0:15:41 | 0:15:47 | |
media. I'm not saying it doesn't
exist, but if you go back since | 0:15:47 | 0:15:52 | |
Brexit, since Britain shot itself in
the foot, there's this element of | 0:15:52 | 0:15:58 | |
schadenfreude. They want, you know,
some part of the British media, the | 0:15:58 | 0:16:04 | |
conservative part, they want
everybody else act as unreasonably. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:08 | |
There was not a day passed without
an article before the French | 0:16:08 | 0:16:13 | |
presidential election saying Marine
Le Pen is going to win. We want her | 0:16:13 | 0:16:18 | |
to win, probably. No, she didn't,
and she was never going to be | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
elected. Then Angela Merkel can't
form that coalition in September. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
Then you have all of these articles,
oh, Germany is unstable, Germany is | 0:16:25 | 0:16:30 | |
unfinished, Merkel is going to go.
Of course she wasn't going to go. It | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
was going to be difficult, she did
it as expected. As for the Italian | 0:16:34 | 0:16:39 | |
elections. I mean, I wouldn't say it
is 70% that voted for popular -- | 0:16:39 | 0:16:46 | |
populism. If they voted for 5-star
and the Northern league coalition. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
They were pro-European and very and
-- until very recently. Look at the | 0:16:50 | 0:16:59 | |
electoral system in Italy, it's been
like this since the Second World | 0:16:59 | 0:17:02 | |
War. I'm not surprised at all by
what's happening there, and it's not | 0:17:02 | 0:17:06 | |
going to make much difference.
Forget about Matteo Renzi, once | 0:17:06 | 0:17:10 | |
elected with 40% only a few back.
Things change in Italy, and that's | 0:17:10 | 0:17:17 | |
not going to change. Merkel is
there, Macron was elected | 0:17:17 | 0:17:23 | |
not going to change. Merkel is
there, Macron was elected, yes, | 0:17:23 | 0:17:27 | |
Macron is very pro-European and 40
and like most young Europeans and | 0:17:27 | 0:17:31 | |
British young people, they offer
more integration. And it's going to | 0:17:31 | 0:17:37 | |
happen. It doesn't mean that, you
know, the complacency and lack of | 0:17:37 | 0:17:43 | |
democracy in the European
institutions shouldn't be addressed. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:47 | |
And I think there's a recognition of
that. And Brexit was a shock. I | 0:17:47 | 0:17:57 | |
think there's a real question mark
over this, you know, Franco German | 0:17:57 | 0:18:01 | |
plan for closer integration now as a
result of this election. You know, | 0:18:01 | 0:18:05 | |
more than 50% of Italian voters
voted for anti-EU parties. You know, | 0:18:05 | 0:18:12 | |
Italy is now dominated by
politicians who have promised deep | 0:18:12 | 0:18:17 | |
tax cuts, lavish spending
programmes, and who while anti-EU. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:22 | |
You know, look at for instance the
plan for a banking union in Europe. | 0:18:22 | 0:18:26 | |
Do you really think that German
banks are going to sign up to a | 0:18:26 | 0:18:31 | |
banking union to stop Italian banks
when Italy is dominated by | 0:18:31 | 0:18:35 | |
politicians that have decided to
just below budget spending open? You | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
know, I think that is... You are
taking a longer view, talking about | 0:18:39 | 0:18:45 | |
50 years' time. Right, in the
broader context you have seen the | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
collapse of the centre-left across
Europe, which is really down to the | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
fact that the social Democratic
parties have not defended the | 0:18:51 | 0:18:56 | |
welfare state as they had
previously, and they squeezed it as | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
a way of paying for, you know, the
outcome of the 2008 financial | 0:18:59 | 0:19:05 | |
crisis. And this is the price.
They've allowed these Populist | 0:19:05 | 0:19:09 | |
parties to come up with a similar
type of, you know, platform off, you | 0:19:09 | 0:19:14 | |
know, we're going to give you, we're
going to give you a social spending | 0:19:14 | 0:19:18 | |
programmes that, you know, harks
back to a decade ago, even though we | 0:19:18 | 0:19:21 | |
can't afford it. I mean, look at
Italy now. It's got the second | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
highest debt to GDP ratio in the
Eurozone. 130% to GDP. So the idea | 0:19:25 | 0:19:33 | |
that they can put shared with those
spending programmes is very | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
unrealistic. They have to have
another election, it's not clear. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
I'm so pleased you said what you
did, I really needed somebody to say | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
that, because I'm sick and tired
of... I mean, Ukip, including this | 0:19:44 | 0:19:49 | |
institution. Big up Ukip in the most
shameful way. Whereas you could | 0:19:49 | 0:19:54 | |
debate? But if you are talking about
those continental results and -- | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
where is Ukip today. We saw the
collapse of the Greek left. A lot of | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
people thought that was down to
corruption and denying true | 0:20:02 | 0:20:06 | |
statistics. Dutch Labour has fallen
too, less than 6%, used to be the | 0:20:06 | 0:20:11 | |
main party of the left. The French
Socialists, 7.5%. And the extreme | 0:20:11 | 0:20:17 | |
right as well. The German SDP, worst
result in some two years, something | 0:20:17 | 0:20:22 | |
is going on, isn't it? The Brexit
thing has kicked up a dust storm and | 0:20:22 | 0:20:27 | |
there is a crisis. But in the end,
good sense will prevail. I think the | 0:20:27 | 0:20:33 | |
European Commission and European
parliaments need more power. I think | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
to have a kind of, you know, a
parliament which doesn't have any | 0:20:36 | 0:20:41 | |
power, that has been part of the
problem. Reform is absolutely | 0:20:41 | 0:20:46 | |
needed. I think the European project
is much bigger than these individual | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
kind of rather spoiled people
reactions. The narrative we needed | 0:20:49 | 0:20:55 | |
to change, when this crash happened,
we needed people to say, it's these | 0:20:55 | 0:21:02 | |
bankers, these capitalists, the
worst kind of capitalists, who | 0:21:02 | 0:21:04 | |
brought us here. Instead the
populist people bring -- lane three | 0:21:04 | 0:21:11 | |
immigrants and the EU, we didn't
capture the narrative. I'm really | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
pleased you've captured that
narrative. I think you are both been | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
very complacent. I agree on the
narrative, I think all the wrong | 0:21:17 | 0:21:21 | |
people were blamed and I don't
disagree on that at all. But let's | 0:21:21 | 0:21:24 | |
look at Europe and Eastern Europe as
well, look at Poland, Hungary, | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
Italy, Spain. You say that France
was fine because the far right | 0:21:28 | 0:21:31 | |
didn't win, but the far right where
the second choice in the election. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:35 | |
But Marine Le Pen is on the way out.
Ukip has disappeared, but of course | 0:21:35 | 0:21:40 | |
it has, it has achieved its aims and
the Tory Party has switched hard to | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
the right. The idea is that populism
has disappeared, we are living in | 0:21:43 | 0:21:48 | |
interesting times. I know it is
breaking the rule, but none of us | 0:21:48 | 0:21:52 | |
really have a clue where it's going.
It could be going in any direction. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
The idea that we can just... Week
and be fatalistic. I'm not | 0:21:55 | 0:22:01 | |
fatalistic. I'd just fighting for
what I believe in, tolerance and | 0:22:01 | 0:22:08 | |
borders which are fluid. The idea
that populism isn't a threat is... | 0:22:08 | 0:22:10 | |
The truth is that we are in very
turbulent times which could go | 0:22:10 | 0:22:14 | |
anywhere, there is such distrust of
institutions, politicians, banks, | 0:22:14 | 0:22:19 | |
the church, everything. So many
illusions have been shattered. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
That's why this is both an
interesting and a scary time. We | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
need to fight back. We can't just
say... We can't be complacent. We | 0:22:25 | 0:22:32 | |
are saying, fight! This rolling over
before popular resin with the | 0:22:32 | 0:22:36 | |
history of Europe. Can't afford that
-- rolling over before populism with | 0:22:36 | 0:22:40 | |
the history of Europe. Why the
institution is not able to grasp | 0:22:40 | 0:22:45 | |
that, and what is that, however you
want to describe it, that broad set | 0:22:45 | 0:22:50 | |
of politicians from the Christian
Democrats to the social Democrats in | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
so many continental European
countries have appeared to be | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
superfine, weak, or unable to keep
--, but answers in the way that | 0:22:57 | 0:23:03 | |
Stephanie was talking about? I don't
think they have been supine or | 0:23:03 | 0:23:07 | |
complacent. I think, you know, when
you go around the world can actually | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
when you go around the world, people
say to you, I've just been in | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
Africa, in India, they say, isn't it
extraordinary what has been achieved | 0:23:14 | 0:23:19 | |
by the EU? Here, thousands of years
of war. It's been kind of put to | 0:23:19 | 0:23:24 | |
bed, actually. And, tough though it
is, how nationalism and pan | 0:23:24 | 0:23:28 | |
nationalism play out, this is
admired. In Africa they admired. We | 0:23:28 | 0:23:35 | |
are a bit spoiled. Because we don't
get the kind of that we see. I've | 0:23:35 | 0:23:40 | |
been to 60 countries in the last
five years and I've never once heard | 0:23:40 | 0:23:44 | |
anyone say, I wish we had the EU!
They may like a lot of things about | 0:23:44 | 0:23:48 | |
Europe... And we are so sceptical of
democracy at a time when people are | 0:23:48 | 0:23:54 | |
fighting and dying for it around the
world, and Trump is actually also | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
being so cavalier with it and
backing autocrats and everything, | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
that is part of the problem. We
don't realise how precious democracy | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
is. It is a generational point. You
are optimistic about younger people | 0:24:05 | 0:24:10 | |
being pro-European and wanting more
integration. There is a lot of | 0:24:10 | 0:24:15 | |
evidence from the very respected
attitude studies that they do every | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
year, the pew studies, last autumn.
It said 29% of the people that they | 0:24:18 | 0:24:24 | |
survey approved of a government in
which a strong leader can make | 0:24:24 | 0:24:29 | |
decisions without interference from
Parliament or courts. People are not | 0:24:29 | 0:24:33 | |
that bothered about democracy,
that's quite worrying, we have | 0:24:33 | 0:24:35 | |
become too complacent. There is a
dissatisfaction within young people. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:43 | |
On the other hand, they didn't
bother to go and vote for Brexit. | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
And then they bothered to vote in
favour of Jeremy Corbyn just a sort | 0:24:46 | 0:24:53 | |
of Camilo, do something. They did
vote. A lot more voted than they | 0:24:53 | 0:24:57 | |
were given credit by. Like I will
give you another statistic from the | 0:24:57 | 0:25:03 | |
foundation. The least happy places
in the world and Europe and North | 0:25:03 | 0:25:09 | |
America. Where is the happiest
country in the world? Nigeria. It | 0:25:09 | 0:25:15 | |
shows that the idealism that has
existed in lots of likely places, | 0:25:15 | 0:25:19 | |
there is optimism in lots of part is
in the world. But in Europe and | 0:25:19 | 0:25:23 | |
North America we are struggling to
see it when we have things that | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
others are fighting. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:30 | |
Thank
others are fighting. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:30 | |
Thank you
others are fighting. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:30 | |
Thank you all
others are fighting. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:30 | |
Thank you all very
others are fighting. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:30 | |
Thank you all very much.
others are fighting. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:34 | |
That's it for Dateline
London for this week. | 0:25:34 | 0:25:36 | |
We're back at the same
time a week from now. | 0:25:36 | 0:25:39 | |
You can tweet us with your comments
on the programme - @bbcshaunley. | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
Goodbye. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 |