Tony and Jane Nicklinson, Assisted suicide campaigners HARDtalk

The headlines: The whereabouts of Colonel Gaddafi remains a mystery.

US officials say that some senior members of the Colonel Gaddafi

leadership were in a convoy heading to Niger.

There have been fresh allegations surrounding the circumstances of

the release of the Lockerbie bomber. It has been claimed that his

release was discussed with the British Government and linked to a

contract with the oil company BP. The transferor detainee is to some

Afghan jails has been suspended following allegations of torture. A

report says prisoners have been subjected to abuse, including being

beaten and given electric shocks. Those are the headlines.

Now it is time for HARDtalk. Should the law ever give one human being

the right to kill another? That is the question at the heart

of this special edition of HARDtalk, which comes from the home of Tony

and Jane Nicklinson. Tony is completely paralysed - he wants to

die. Jane wants to help him. Currently, British law stands in

their way. If Tony were to be killed, would it be murder or

mercy? Tony and Jane Nicklinson were

married 25 years ago. Six years ago their world was changed forever.

Tony suffered a massive stroke at the age of 52. He survived, just,

but was completely paralysed. The only movement he can control is in

his eyes and his blinking but his brain and ability to think are

unimpaired. Letter...I...letter...A. Tony communicates using his eyes

and blinks to pick out letters on a board. It is slow and, for him,

deeply frustrating. Having lived like this for six years, he has had

enough. He wants to die. As he cannot kill himself, he wants

someone else to end his life for him. Right now, that would be

called murder. Tony and Jane want British law changed to give him the

right to die. Using a specially adapted computer, Tony explains to

me his motivation. Tony Nicklinson, welcome to HARDtalk. I want to ask

you the most basic question of all. Why do you want to die? At the

moment I want to die because I can see the future being worse for me

than it is now. I fear the next 20 years also with trepidation. I

think this is as good as it gets and it is downhill from here. If I

knew the comfort of suicide was available, who knows, I might not

want to take my life. What I know is that not having a plan causes me

anguish that the people who oppose me do not understand. I am fed like

a baby with baby food, cannot do anything for myself and everything

is a matter of routine. I will live like this for the rest of my life

so is it any wonder I am not enthusiastic about living? You want

somebody else to be given the legal right to kill you. Would that not

create an extraordinarily dangerous precedent, particularly for the

most vulnerable disabled people? course it is dangerous if it is not

subscribe to the idea that just because it is difficult we should

not do it. There are plenty of examples around the world where it

has been done successfully and we can look to them for guidance. I

have devised a scheme that shows promise so that if I go, anybody

can. I do not say it is easy, just possible. Pro-lifers often say this

would open the floodgates. Nonsense. Do you really believe that the non-

disabled, who can legally commit suicide... This is Tony before his

stroke - an active sportsman, a bit of an adventurer and proud father

of two daughters. Now Jane and a team of helpers have to do

everything for him. 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He is not

terminally ill but despite the love in this home he is terminally fed

up with his life. That is something that Jane Nicklinson has to live

with. Jane Nicklinson, welcome to to me his despair, his sense of

hopelessness. How hard is it for you to deal with your own husband

saying that sort of thing? It is very hard. It is not unexpected.

From the day he was taken ill, we knew what the prognosis was and the

day would come that this is what he would want. That is the kind of

person he is. You sort of get used to it in a way. We have been

thinking about Tony's death for the last six years. It does not make it

easier but you get used to it. his despair deepened over time? In

the very early days, I do not think he was aware of the prognosis.

was one of the first things he said to me when he started using his

communication board. I do not think it has gotten worse. It was bad

from the word go. Tony says he wishes he had not been saved by the

doctors those six years ago when he had that terrible stroke. Do you

say the same thing? Do you wish the doctors had not saved him? That's

tricky. Yes and no. At the time when it happened, my daughters were

with me and we all said we do not want to live like this. It is a

terrible thing to say but, yes, I wish the doctors hadn't saved him.

If we have a good day, maybe not but if it is what he wants it is

what I want. We have a little sense of how you and Tony live your daily

lives. What are the biggest frustrations for Tony in his daily

life? His biggest frustration is not being able to to communicate.

He always said if he could speak it would not be so difficult. It is

just everything is total frustration for him. For him and

also for you. In a different way for me. For him it is day-to-day

life, getting up, eating. For me it is frustrating because seeing him

like this, what life has become for us... What I am getting at... We

will get to the legal issues in a minute. It is strange to talk about

Tony when he is right here with us. Tony clearly believes his life has

been ruined. The question for you is whether you believe your life

has been ruined too? I suppose so, yes. I cannot say no because it has.

We had so many dreams of the things we were going to do. Yeah. (CRIES).

This gets more and more difficult. Therefore, it would be better for

you if Tony were to die, to use that right to die. I do not want

him to die. There is no way that I want him to die. I see what his

life is. Maybe I do want him to die, not at the moment but the time will

come when he has had enough of life. OK, if it is what he wants then

that is fine. Let's talk about the legal issues. Right now, of course,

given his disabilities, Tony does not have the option of taking his

own life. He cannot do that. If someone was to help him, that would

be murder. Is it your and Tony's wish to fundamentally change the

law? If I help Tony to die I would be charged with murder. It would be

no different if I killed someone in cold blood. We want the law

changing. So-called mercy killings should be treated differently. A

change in the law on murder - that is what we are after. That is a

really profound change, isn't it? You are saying the law would in

some way have to create an avenue for somebody to be allowed to take

another person's life. Given our tradition of war, our notions about

the sanctity of life, it would be extraordinarily difficult and a

radical thing to do. How do you think it would be done? I am not

sure where we are going for now. It is in the pipeline and we are

discussing it with our solicitors. They feel we do have a case. Why

should Tony be denied the right to take his own life? It is what he

wants and what he is asking for. There should be some system in

place. We are not saying it should be legalised point blank, going out

and killing someone and say, they told me they wanted to die. There

would have to be a stringent procedure in place. You and Tony

have talked about this in detail. You would have to. Would you be the

one to end his life? I think so, yes. I want to be the one to do it.

He does not want me to. He wants to make it legal for other people to

do it so I do not have to. He wants me to give him a sedative and then

someone else come in and give him the euthanasia so I would not have

to do it and he would not have to see me. You would have to have a

doctor's agreement to be involved. Doctors have made it plain time and

time again they will not countenance being involved in the

explicit taking of life in this way. It would not necessarily have to be

a doctor. I could do it. I think I could. I have been asked this so

many times. I think I could do it. I am sure there are doctors out

there that would come forward. argument against it is that it

opens up an extraordinarily dangerous precedent, that if it

becomes, in certain situations, legal to kill the disabled, the

most vulnerable in our society, that very soon some vulnerable

people may feel that almost they are obliged to take the option of

choosing death. Not if there was some sort of scheme in place. It

would obviously have to be very carefully thought out. There would

have to be a process you would have to go through to be able to do it.

Tony has devised a scheme of his own. Whether it is that was

something similar, it would have to be carefully thought. If there can

be a way for it to be done, why can anyone else take their life but

Tony cannot? He knows what he wants to do but he physically cannot do

it. You say he knows what he wants to do. Another argument from those

in the religious community and others is that minds can be changed.

Tony could change his mind. Have you discounted that? You could say

that about straightforward suicide. Suicide is legal for able-bodied

people. Their minds could be changed if things were different.

Why is ordinary suicide legal? relatives of suicide victims would

say, if only I had that opportunity to talk them out of it, to make the

case that it was the wrong option to take. If only, I might have

saved them. Because Tony cannot do it for himself, society, starting

with you, has that option to try and persuade him. He has been like

this for six years and he has not changed his mind yet. Who knows, in

the future? That is life, isn't it? I know Tony, for example, using his

computer, is writing his memoirs. You have described how he is

enjoying that process of remembering his past life, writing

about it, some of the adventures you two had together. That suggests

to me that there is still a way to get some enjoyment out of life and

that seems important. It is not enough, though, is it? It is not

enough for him. He wants to say something. Can I do it? Yes, of

course. Letter 'W', letter 'H'... (CONTINUES SPELLING) What... If...

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds

What... I... Feel... Is... Not... The... Same... As... Ordinary? I

think I know what you are saying. The reason why Tony wants to commit

suicide cannot be solved. This is as good as life is ever going to be

for him. An argument made by those who oppose the kind of legal

changes you want to see is that palliative care can make your life

better. There are ways in which care can improve the quality of

your life. Is it too late for that now? We have had specialists here.

There is nothing really. Everyone is different. We all have different

expectations from life. If you knew Tony before, he is an ex-rugby

player, life of the party, adventurer, we travelled around the

world, he was good at his job. All the things he loved about life he

cannot do. I just wonder how far you are prepared to go, the two of

you, when it comes to see him through this wish to die. After we

see through the court case, the only option Tony has is to starve

You are referring to the fact it is legal to assist suicide in

Switzerland. Could Dignitas create a system where it could be an

assisted suicide? I have been in touch with them and what they said

they could set up a system and he could operate it with a switch.

question is, if that is a possibility, of course it would

take money, if that is a possibility, why spend so much time

and effort going through the British courts? Everything I have

seen in the court papers, from traditional verdicts in the past to

the words of judges, it suggests it is highly unlikely they will modify

the law on murder. Tony does not see why he should go to Switzerland

to die. He wants to die at home with his family around him, not in

some strange country. The journey itself would be incredibly

traumatic for him. Why should he have to? I asked you some very

sensitive questions about your feelings about Tony's death and

whether, to be brutal about it, if Tony's end would be a release for

you. That raises the issue of vested interests from those around

somebody who is suffering, as Tony is. Can you see the danger is there

that it might come to a point where, if the laws you wanted are passed,

family members, others with an interest, they could be persuading

vulnerable people to end their lives? I am sure that happens with

ordinary suicide cases. Ordinary suicide is not illegal. I am sure

people are coerced into committing suicide. It could happen. What

safeguards could you imagine to prevent it? The systems must be

added to deal with that. I think that Tony has come up with the idea

that the judge would have to be involved at every stage of the

process and there would be months and months of a cooling-off period

between an initial decision to allow the death and the actual

implementation of that decision. Do you really believe that would be

enough? I think so, yes. We all know what the pitfalls are and

hopefully this system would be able to prevent those. Tony's life is

hell, basically. He is being forced to live it. It is like a form of

torture, you could say. There has to be a way that something could be

sorted out. Each case has to be taken on its on merit. There are

indications that the British public has a great deal of sympathy with

many of the arguments you are making and, in the past, when there

have been deaths which have been associated with this idea of mercy

killing, jurors have tended to show sympathy for those behind those

killings in their verdicts. Does that make you consider the

possibility of ignoring the law, in essence taking the law into your

own hands, and relying on the sympathy of a jury? That is a big

risk to take. As much as I love him, I am not sure if I am prepared to

spend time in prison. He would not let me do it. It would have to be

legal. I have got my children to think about. No, I could not do

that. Have you talked about it? has always made it very clear from

the word go that there is no way he would let me do it because he would

not want to risk it. I admire people that can do it. I know there

have been some quite high profile cases recently. It takes a lot of

guts to be able to do something like that. I personally could not.

I wonder how some people would respond to this. You are a full-

time carer, it dominates your life, you talk about your daughters, they

want to see their father but what do they say to you? They are 100%

behind everything that we're doing. When we have talked about just

doing it and breaking the law, they were horrified to think that I

would even think about doing it. It is hard for them. It is very hard

for them. They fully understand what their dad was like. They know

what he was like before he was taken ill. He was a total

embarrassment! But, they are totally behind us. You have the

look of a wife who has lived the life with someone, loved someone,

been with them for your adult life - in the course of this interview,

I get a strong sense of a bond between you and Tony, yet, all of

our conversation's been about how to end his life. For you, you are

in an impossible position. I could be totally selfish and want him to

carry on living but that would be selfish. I have got to do what he

wants to do. I support him and I have to. If I did not support him

when he needed me to support him, just the practicalities of that, I

do support him and this is very hard but you're constantly talking

about how your husband is going to die. We have been living with it

for six years. It does become easier. The final thought, you are

living in a very personal way with this but you're also dealing with

the system, whether it is the legal system, politicians, the health

service, doctors, ethicists, frankly, at the moment, nobody

wants to offer you what you really want. Everything that has happened

with the legal case up until now has not been unexpected. It is what

we have been expecting all the time. It is what happens from now that is

important. We knew that this would probably be the outcome. They don't

feel that we have a case. We knew that was going to happen. It is

interesting to see what happens from now on. What that will be, I

do not know yet. Have you got the strength to carry on with his

caring? Yes, definitely. I think he quite enjoys it in a way, don't

you? Jane Nicklinson ,and Tony as well, thank you both for being on

It is a very wet and windy day. Today should be a bit better than

yesterday. There will still be some showers around and it will be

fairly breezy for many. Some blustery winds still blowing. There

will be some showers, mainly across western and northern parts of the

UK. It is in the north and the west where we will see the showers

through the first part of the morning. The south and east could

get away with some brightness. Some sunny skies across the south of

Wales, but in the north, it will be fairly cloudy. There will be a

scattering of showers across Northern Ireland, with little if

any brightness. The showers will also be there across northern and

western parts of Scotland, but further east, it could be a bit

drier. Temperatures in the morning about ten degrees. As we head down

across northern England, showers will be gathering across the north-

west, one or two mate sneak across the Pennines. There will be some

fine weather across the south and east of England, even some pockets

of sunshine. The winds still fairly brisk. A similar story as we move

down towards the south-west. A largely dry start but fairly breezy.

As the day goes on, we will continue to see the showers have

been blown in on the wind. They will be concentrated across the

northern part of the UK. That is not to say we will not see a few

getting across to the more southern and eastern parts. But on the whole,

many places here will be drier. Dr M Bridges Of the Day in the south-

east, 18-19 -- top temperatures of the day. The show was will continue

to gang together into some longer spells of rain. The rain could be

fairly relentless for a while across Northern Ireland, north-west

England and North Wales. It will be a bit drier to the north of

Scotland and the south of England. A mild night when stay in to

Thursday, but a little bit cheerier. For Thursday itself, we had the

weather front draped across the UK, bringing some further rain across

some central and southern parts, especially as the rain its --

starts to push northwards. Temperatures rising slightly. By