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star has been found by viewers of the BBC programme Stargazing Live. | :00:05. | :00:13. | |
Time for HARDtalk. GUS O'Donnell has been at the heart | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
of government in Britain for 30 years, working closely with the | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
last four British prime ministers. He was John Major's press secretary. | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
Under Tony Blair, he took on the top job in the Civil Service, a | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
position he held when Gordon Brown took over. He was the one holding | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
the negotiations for Britain's first coalition government since | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
the Second World War. He has finally retired after two years of | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
David Cameron as prime minister. With his former position being | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
split into three jobs, does the man who used to sign his matters with | :00:52. | :01:02. | |
:01:02. | :01:10. | ||
his initials - God - recognise that he was too powerful? -- his letters. | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
I suppose the decision to split your former position in to three | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
roles implies that it was too large a role. Do you except that? | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
situation has changed. We are now in a coalition government. The | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
chief policy adviser to the Prime Minister is now the chief policy | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
adviser to the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. The Cabinet | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
Secretary role got bigger. The head of the civil service role is | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
crucial over the next few years as we go through deficit reduction. | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
There are serious issues there in terms of a leading and managing | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
change in the civil service. The Cabinet Office is a role that I | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
would have done -- that I would have delegated. Because when the | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
coalition government came in under its large efficiency agenda, they | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
transferred a lot of work that was done by other departments into that | :02:16. | :02:24. | |
Cabinet Office role. You were too powerful? I would not say that, I | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
just had a lot of jobs with different aspects. For the | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
circumstances of coalition, when you are trying to get such a large | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
deficit down, it makes more sense to have a number... To split those | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
two large jobs into the head of the Civil Service and the Cabinet | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
secretary. Under different circumstances, if we return to a | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
single party government, I can imagine that they would be put back | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
together. Upon your retirement, it was said by some that all too often, | :02:59. | :03:09. | |
:03:09. | :03:12. | ||
elected ministers become mere mouthpieces for the system of | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
technocracy. That voters imagine that they are voting for people who | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
stand for issues but things really changed. Ice... I suspect that he | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
will disagree with that. However, is anything in that statement true? | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
No, the point of the Civil Service is that we are there to serve | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
whoever the British public vote for. We are a democracy. I am a strong | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
believer in democracy. I am very concerned about countries in Europe, | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
where they have technocracy is. One is saying is that a functioning | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
civil service is a rarity and it allows the government to work | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
through transitions. When government changes from one party | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
to another or for one party to a coalition government, the | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
impartiality of the civil service comes into its own. Yes, for a | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
while, we are there to help the new government sort out its priorities | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
and what it wants to do. That is the way it is meant to work. But I | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
wonder how much power you have in that role. You have said that one | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
of your proudest achievements was keeping Britain out of the euro. | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
said that it was the evidence-based policy and has since -- analysis | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
that allowed the politicians to decide. We set out a really | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
comprehensive piece of work and if other countries had done the same, | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
they might have made the same decision. However, you have told an | :04:51. | :04:58. | |
audience of students in 2002 that those five conditions in the | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
evidence-based analysis would never be met and that the decision was | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
not economic but political. For no, that is a mangled misinterpretation. | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
The point I was making was that there would be a vote in parliament | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
before we were doing so it would ultimately be a political decision. | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
Did you believe those five conditions could ever been that? | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
Yes but they were a long way away from being met. We did not have the | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
flexibility in away economy. And what we have seen in economies like | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
those in countries like Greece, where there is not that flexibility, | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
if you have not to your exchange rate and you have someone else | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
setting your interest rate, when times are tough, it can be very | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
difficult. When you look back at his evidence based analysis that | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
you came up with with Gordon Brown who was not politically in favour | :05:56. | :06:04. | |
of the euro... If Tony Blair was... Would he have gone in? He made a | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
number of statements that implied that he believed there would be | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
strongly vantages. He wanted us to assess the political pros and cons. | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
That is what we did. It is for us, the Civil Service, to provide the | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
advice which is based on analysis, and for them to make the political | :06:24. | :06:32. | |
decision as to whether to join or not. You know how different various | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
positions can be. Economics can come up with a number of different | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
positions. Therefore, you are in a position of power. When you say | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
that economics can come up with all sorts of different answers, in this | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
case, the vast majority of economists were very clear. Those | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
who were not clear have probably changed their mind by now. Where we | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
arrived at with that analysis was at exactly the right point. | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
have been at the heart of government for so long - an | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
astonishing accomplishment. To maintain that position, that must | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
rely on you having a good relationship with the man at the | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
top. So far, the one that has become public is that at the end of | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
the time of Gordon Brown be in prime minister, his wife said that | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
when they left Downing Street, she did not shake your hand because | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
there had been a loss of trust between you both. The one thing | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
that I would say about Cabinet secretaries is that you deal with | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
prime ministers and their families. It is a difficult job. I have gone | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
on the record as saying that we should provide for support for the | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
thousands of prime ministers. Sarah Brown was fantastic as the partner | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
of a prime minister. She did tremendous work. You might be a fan | :07:57. | :08:05. | |
of her but she was not a fan of yours. She said that it was a bond | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
of trust and she said that she was not confident in it at the end. | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
What you are trying to do at the end, during that very difficult | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
period, is trying to remain an impartial civil servant, trying to | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
get all the political parties to come to a workable solution. That | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
time was very fraught. Conservatives and Liberal Democrats | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
were talking, he would Democrats and Labour were talking. It was our | :08:34. | :08:44. | |
job to facilitate those talks. that why she was upset? She said | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
that she felt you were leaking stories about Gordon Brown to the | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
media. There were stories about temper tantrums and grabbing civil | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
servants by the lapels. She blamed you for those. The truth is that I | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
am one of the most passionate people against the leaking of | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
privileged information. I have gone out of my way to pursue people who | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
have been leaking information. It is corrosive to good governance. | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
That is why I am against it. that why she was upset about a | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
perceived breach of trust? honest answer is that I do not know | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
and you would have to ask her. you upset by that? Obviously, you | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
try to maintain trust. That is important for everyone. I have | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
worked with different prime ministers for different parties and | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
of course you want to maintain that trust not just for the Prime | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
Minister but for their partner and their families as well. Yes, | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
absolutely I am upset but I feel with a very clear conscience that I | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
try my very best to maintain relations with all of the prime | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
ministers and their partners. say that you are optimistic. Ha you | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
still optimistic? You like to leave a post feeling that you're done | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
your best for the people involved. If at some point, I have reached... | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
If someone feels they cannot trust me, then I have failed in that part. | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
You worked closely with Gordon Brown and there must have been a | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
good working relationship at the beginning. However, at some point, | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
things went wrong. In his first major speech since leaving office, | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
he quoted advice from you which he felt was mistaken - that he should | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
not hold an inquiry into phone hacking. At some point, the | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
relationship between the two of you do break down. If the relationship | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
between Cabinet secretaries and prime ministers has got to be | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
strong. There has got to be honest advice. It is important for us to | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
speak the truth to power, privately. And I have the highest respect for | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
Gordon Brown. If we look back to the financial crisis of 2008, the | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
London conference of the G20, it was really important for the | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
country and the world that we had someone with his economic and | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
financial experience and credibility on the world stage to | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
allow the world to move forward away from the path of protectionism, | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
which could have been incredibly damaging. He wanted to hold an | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
inquiry into phone hacking and he pressed you on the matter. You said | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
that it would be seen as politically motivated. This was | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
just ahead of the election. I made it clear, and the documents | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
relating to this have now been made public and demonstrate that, that | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
on the basis of the evidence that we had at that time, it would seem | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
strange to call that an inquiry at that point in time. Do you regret | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
that? I regret that we did not have the evidence that they have now. If | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
we had that, we would have absolutely gone for an inquiry. In | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
fact, I was involved in seeking with every member of the Leveson | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
Inquiry to ask them to be involved in such an inquiry. We reached a | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
point when Gordon Brown says, I deeply regret my inability to do at | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
that point in time of what I want to to do. It appears from that that | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
you actually stopped the Prime Minister from doing something. And | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
we return to the issue of power. advised him that on the basis of | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
the evidence we had at that point, I, personally, could not see that | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
there was enough evidence there. Obviously, we have enough evidence | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
now and an inquiry has been set up. You say that you do not believe in | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
leaking. However, who have admitted that you have spoken with him. You | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
have told a committee of MPs that you spoke with Gordon Brown about | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
how to get the best out of the Civil Service. That is a | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
conversation we always have with the prime minister. These are | :13:30. | :13:39. | |
difficult positions and quite often, you are pushing people to the limit | :13:39. | :13:48. | |
on an issue that is evolving 247.. Eat is important that you get the | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
best out of people and made sure that they also get some rest at | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
times so they are working at their best and most efficient. | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
Did he push the Civil Service to hide? I do not think so. It is for | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
people like the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that the Civil Service | :14:11. | :14:21. | |
:14:21. | :14:22. | ||
They all in their different ways pushed in different respects. It is | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
the question of different personalities, different strengths. | :14:26. | :14:34. | |
When you look back at Sir John Major, he had a very relaxed, | :14:34. | :14:42. | |
intimate and friendly style. Tony Blair was St -- a supreme performer. | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Gordon Brown was a brilliant person to have in the middle of a | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
financial crisis. David Cameron and Nick quake at two people who've | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
really trust each other and can make a Coalition work. They all | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
have strengths and weaknesses. They have done great things. Was Gordon | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
Brown a bully? He was someone who was very clear about what he wanted. | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
He behaved in his own style. I would never describe him as a bully. | :15:18. | :15:26. | |
But she did not say he was not? did not describe him as one. You | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
say they push the civil servants. It is your job to push back. Unit | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
had to do that with David Cameron didn't you? It is part of the | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
relationship between a cabinet secretary and a prime minister. He | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
will of the is the question them on various issues. You have retired | :15:47. | :15:55. | |
three weeks ago. He left with a pension, from a salary of $240,000, | :15:55. | :16:04. | |
a pension of �100,000. Can you see why civil servants, we have been a | :16:04. | :16:11. | |
terrible financial crisis, can you see why civil servants who used to | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
work for you might look at the arrangement and say it is not fair? | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
It is not what civil servants say to me. It is a system we have, it | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
isn't very much related to your final salary. If you find a be so | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
very, that is what you're entitled to, that is the pension you get. I | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
have emphasised this as I went up and down the country. This is far | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
away from the average. The average civil service pension is around | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
�7,000. I sped to thousands around the country who are facing tough | :16:50. | :16:58. | |
times. They run the middle of a pay freeze, the right job cuts. We are | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
currently changing the pension terms. We are moving to a career | :17:03. | :17:10. | |
average scheme, it will be fairer. It will reduce the pension of | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
people like me and redistributed. You are heading off with this at a | :17:16. | :17:26. | |
:17:26. | :17:28. | ||
time when there are negotiations. To the head of the public services | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
union says the picture looks to side to that -- did decidedly more | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
bleak for the ranks. A I talked to and had a relationship with many | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
civil servants around the country. It is not an issue they would raise | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
with me. When he talked about the relationship we have had and that | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
negotiations with pensions, a large number of unions have settled on | :17:55. | :18:04. | |
the terms. There are a few still holding out. Are they right to? | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
believe that it is absolutely right for us to put public sector | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
pensions and particularly civil servant pensions on a sustainable | :18:13. | :18:22. | |
basis. It will give them a pension that is a defined benefit. It will | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
not be related to stock markets. they should accept the deal? | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
think it is a sustainable deal, they should take it. I think it is | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
the view of a large number of trade unions. The former Labour minister | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
says it looks like one law for those at the top, and one for those | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
at the bottom. But this does is changed the balance for pensions. | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
It reallocate money away from people at the top like I was, to | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
those at the bottom. It is a good progressive change. And good timing | :19:00. | :19:08. | |
on your part? You cannot help when you retire. That is life. One of | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
the things you have done his to look a head at the challengers this | :19:12. | :19:22. | |
country faces. Such as keeping this kingdom united. Will we face a | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
decision by the end of the next few years over whether to keep the | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
union? It is a matter of political debate. I think it is quite likely | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
that it was there in the SNP manifesto, it will be likely that | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
there is one. What is the likelihood of them getting their | :19:44. | :19:52. | |
way.? The Prime Minister has said that this is a matter for the | :19:52. | :20:02. | |
:20:02. | :20:03. | ||
people of Scotland. The SNP want independence. There may even be a | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
lot more devolution and powers to Scotland. Will this be the last few | :20:10. | :20:18. | |
years of the Union? I think it is far too early to say. It is looked | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
at opinion polls now, if there was a referendum tomorrow in Scotland | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
they would vote to keep the union. We will have to see. If you looked | :20:28. | :20:35. | |
at Wales as well, strong opinion polls show that they want to stay | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
within the Union. At the moment, the status quo of books like | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
staying, but who can tell? mentioned the durability of the | :20:47. | :20:57. | |
:20:57. | :20:59. | ||
coalition. Will it survive? They passed through Parliament for | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
fixed-term parliament. Instead of the incumbent government being able | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
to choose when they will have an election, there will be a fixed | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
term. Estimate that it goes to the full term, one made 20 15th there | :21:14. | :21:24. | |
:21:24. | :21:27. | ||
will be an election. -- in May, 2015 they will be an election. Both | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
parties have argued strongly a committee to there. They have come | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
through that. From what I have seen of the way the Prime Minister and | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
Deputy work together, the trust they have, my money is on them | :21:42. | :21:51. | |
lasted the full term. He said that your advice on the coalition. If | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
you think about it, it is binding to teamed together. If you want | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
them to develop trust and work together on the big problems facing | :21:59. | :22:07. | |
the country, he did not want them to start off working on an hairier | :22:07. | :22:15. | |
what they profoundly disagree. One side will win, at one side will | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
lose. Then you have to bring the two back together and make them a | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
team again. He have made references to the relationship of the two of | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
the top. Perhaps the problem is further down? If the relationship | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
at the top works, then i think that will ensure that it permeates | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
through the whole of the Cabinet. He talked about the importance of | :22:43. | :22:53. | |
:22:53. | :22:54. | ||
being impartial. Do you go? Yes. I have given talks in schools about | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
the importance of people who go out of their way to vote. If we did not | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
use it, it would be a terrible tragedy. What is it like to go from | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
the polling booth, back to Downing Street to carry on working with | :23:09. | :23:16. | |
somebody who you may not have voted for? That is the nature of being an | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
impartial civil servant. You know that who you work a week to work | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
for his to the British electorate had decided,... Do you think the | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
British prime ministers may have known how you voted for? No. They | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
never asked me. It is not really an issue. Inside the British -- the | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
British system, when David Cameron came in as Prime Minister, he had | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
the whole of the Office who had been working for Gordon Brown carry | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
on working for David Cameron. He did not change anybody. As people | :23:55. | :24:04. |