Gus O'Donnell - Former Head of UK Civil Service HARDtalk


Gus O'Donnell - Former Head of UK Civil Service

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star has been found by viewers of the BBC programme Stargazing Live.

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Time for HARDtalk. GUS O'Donnell has been at the heart

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of government in Britain for 30 years, working closely with the

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last four British prime ministers. He was John Major's press secretary.

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Under Tony Blair, he took on the top job in the Civil Service, a

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position he held when Gordon Brown took over. He was the one holding

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the negotiations for Britain's first coalition government since

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the Second World War. He has finally retired after two years of

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David Cameron as prime minister. With his former position being

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split into three jobs, does the man who used to sign his matters with

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his initials - God - recognise that he was too powerful? -- his letters.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

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I suppose the decision to split your former position in to three

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roles implies that it was too large a role. Do you except that?

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situation has changed. We are now in a coalition government. The

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chief policy adviser to the Prime Minister is now the chief policy

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adviser to the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. The Cabinet

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Secretary role got bigger. The head of the civil service role is

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crucial over the next few years as we go through deficit reduction.

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There are serious issues there in terms of a leading and managing

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change in the civil service. The Cabinet Office is a role that I

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would have done -- that I would have delegated. Because when the

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coalition government came in under its large efficiency agenda, they

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transferred a lot of work that was done by other departments into that

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Cabinet Office role. You were too powerful? I would not say that, I

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just had a lot of jobs with different aspects. For the

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circumstances of coalition, when you are trying to get such a large

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deficit down, it makes more sense to have a number... To split those

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two large jobs into the head of the Civil Service and the Cabinet

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secretary. Under different circumstances, if we return to a

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single party government, I can imagine that they would be put back

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together. Upon your retirement, it was said by some that all too often,

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elected ministers become mere mouthpieces for the system of

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technocracy. That voters imagine that they are voting for people who

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stand for issues but things really changed. Ice... I suspect that he

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will disagree with that. However, is anything in that statement true?

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No, the point of the Civil Service is that we are there to serve

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whoever the British public vote for. We are a democracy. I am a strong

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believer in democracy. I am very concerned about countries in Europe,

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where they have technocracy is. One is saying is that a functioning

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civil service is a rarity and it allows the government to work

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through transitions. When government changes from one party

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to another or for one party to a coalition government, the

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impartiality of the civil service comes into its own. Yes, for a

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while, we are there to help the new government sort out its priorities

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and what it wants to do. That is the way it is meant to work. But I

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wonder how much power you have in that role. You have said that one

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of your proudest achievements was keeping Britain out of the euro.

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said that it was the evidence-based policy and has since -- analysis

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that allowed the politicians to decide. We set out a really

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comprehensive piece of work and if other countries had done the same,

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they might have made the same decision. However, you have told an

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audience of students in 2002 that those five conditions in the

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evidence-based analysis would never be met and that the decision was

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not economic but political. For no, that is a mangled misinterpretation.

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The point I was making was that there would be a vote in parliament

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before we were doing so it would ultimately be a political decision.

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Did you believe those five conditions could ever been that?

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Yes but they were a long way away from being met. We did not have the

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flexibility in away economy. And what we have seen in economies like

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those in countries like Greece, where there is not that flexibility,

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if you have not to your exchange rate and you have someone else

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setting your interest rate, when times are tough, it can be very

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difficult. When you look back at his evidence based analysis that

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you came up with with Gordon Brown who was not politically in favour

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of the euro... If Tony Blair was... Would he have gone in? He made a

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number of statements that implied that he believed there would be

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strongly vantages. He wanted us to assess the political pros and cons.

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That is what we did. It is for us, the Civil Service, to provide the

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advice which is based on analysis, and for them to make the political

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decision as to whether to join or not. You know how different various

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positions can be. Economics can come up with a number of different

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positions. Therefore, you are in a position of power. When you say

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that economics can come up with all sorts of different answers, in this

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case, the vast majority of economists were very clear. Those

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who were not clear have probably changed their mind by now. Where we

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arrived at with that analysis was at exactly the right point.

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have been at the heart of government for so long - an

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astonishing accomplishment. To maintain that position, that must

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rely on you having a good relationship with the man at the

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top. So far, the one that has become public is that at the end of

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the time of Gordon Brown be in prime minister, his wife said that

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when they left Downing Street, she did not shake your hand because

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there had been a loss of trust between you both. The one thing

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that I would say about Cabinet secretaries is that you deal with

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prime ministers and their families. It is a difficult job. I have gone

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on the record as saying that we should provide for support for the

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thousands of prime ministers. Sarah Brown was fantastic as the partner

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of a prime minister. She did tremendous work. You might be a fan

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of her but she was not a fan of yours. She said that it was a bond

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of trust and she said that she was not confident in it at the end.

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What you are trying to do at the end, during that very difficult

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period, is trying to remain an impartial civil servant, trying to

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get all the political parties to come to a workable solution. That

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time was very fraught. Conservatives and Liberal Democrats

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were talking, he would Democrats and Labour were talking. It was our

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job to facilitate those talks. that why she was upset? She said

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that she felt you were leaking stories about Gordon Brown to the

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media. There were stories about temper tantrums and grabbing civil

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servants by the lapels. She blamed you for those. The truth is that I

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am one of the most passionate people against the leaking of

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privileged information. I have gone out of my way to pursue people who

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have been leaking information. It is corrosive to good governance.

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That is why I am against it. that why she was upset about a

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perceived breach of trust? honest answer is that I do not know

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and you would have to ask her. you upset by that? Obviously, you

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try to maintain trust. That is important for everyone. I have

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worked with different prime ministers for different parties and

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of course you want to maintain that trust not just for the Prime

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Minister but for their partner and their families as well. Yes,

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absolutely I am upset but I feel with a very clear conscience that I

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try my very best to maintain relations with all of the prime

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ministers and their partners. say that you are optimistic. Ha you

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still optimistic? You like to leave a post feeling that you're done

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your best for the people involved. If at some point, I have reached...

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If someone feels they cannot trust me, then I have failed in that part.

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You worked closely with Gordon Brown and there must have been a

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good working relationship at the beginning. However, at some point,

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things went wrong. In his first major speech since leaving office,

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he quoted advice from you which he felt was mistaken - that he should

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not hold an inquiry into phone hacking. At some point, the

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relationship between the two of you do break down. If the relationship

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between Cabinet secretaries and prime ministers has got to be

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strong. There has got to be honest advice. It is important for us to

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speak the truth to power, privately. And I have the highest respect for

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Gordon Brown. If we look back to the financial crisis of 2008, the

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London conference of the G20, it was really important for the

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country and the world that we had someone with his economic and

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financial experience and credibility on the world stage to

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allow the world to move forward away from the path of protectionism,

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which could have been incredibly damaging. He wanted to hold an

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inquiry into phone hacking and he pressed you on the matter. You said

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that it would be seen as politically motivated. This was

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just ahead of the election. I made it clear, and the documents

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relating to this have now been made public and demonstrate that, that

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on the basis of the evidence that we had at that time, it would seem

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strange to call that an inquiry at that point in time. Do you regret

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that? I regret that we did not have the evidence that they have now. If

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we had that, we would have absolutely gone for an inquiry. In

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fact, I was involved in seeking with every member of the Leveson

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Inquiry to ask them to be involved in such an inquiry. We reached a

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point when Gordon Brown says, I deeply regret my inability to do at

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that point in time of what I want to to do. It appears from that that

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you actually stopped the Prime Minister from doing something. And

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we return to the issue of power. advised him that on the basis of

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the evidence we had at that point, I, personally, could not see that

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there was enough evidence there. Obviously, we have enough evidence

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now and an inquiry has been set up. You say that you do not believe in

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leaking. However, who have admitted that you have spoken with him. You

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have told a committee of MPs that you spoke with Gordon Brown about

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how to get the best out of the Civil Service. That is a

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conversation we always have with the prime minister. These are

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difficult positions and quite often, you are pushing people to the limit

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on an issue that is evolving 247.. Eat is important that you get the

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best out of people and made sure that they also get some rest at

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times so they are working at their best and most efficient.

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Did he push the Civil Service to hide? I do not think so. It is for

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people like the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that the Civil Service

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They all in their different ways pushed in different respects. It is

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the question of different personalities, different strengths.

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When you look back at Sir John Major, he had a very relaxed,

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intimate and friendly style. Tony Blair was St -- a supreme performer.

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Gordon Brown was a brilliant person to have in the middle of a

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financial crisis. David Cameron and Nick quake at two people who've

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really trust each other and can make a Coalition work. They all

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have strengths and weaknesses. They have done great things. Was Gordon

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Brown a bully? He was someone who was very clear about what he wanted.

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He behaved in his own style. I would never describe him as a bully.

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But she did not say he was not? did not describe him as one. You

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say they push the civil servants. It is your job to push back. Unit

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had to do that with David Cameron didn't you? It is part of the

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relationship between a cabinet secretary and a prime minister. He

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will of the is the question them on various issues. You have retired

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three weeks ago. He left with a pension, from a salary of $240,000,

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a pension of �100,000. Can you see why civil servants, we have been a

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terrible financial crisis, can you see why civil servants who used to

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work for you might look at the arrangement and say it is not fair?

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It is not what civil servants say to me. It is a system we have, it

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isn't very much related to your final salary. If you find a be so

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very, that is what you're entitled to, that is the pension you get. I

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have emphasised this as I went up and down the country. This is far

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away from the average. The average civil service pension is around

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�7,000. I sped to thousands around the country who are facing tough

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times. They run the middle of a pay freeze, the right job cuts. We are

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currently changing the pension terms. We are moving to a career

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average scheme, it will be fairer. It will reduce the pension of

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people like me and redistributed. You are heading off with this at a

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:17:26.:17:28.

time when there are negotiations. To the head of the public services

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union says the picture looks to side to that -- did decidedly more

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bleak for the ranks. A I talked to and had a relationship with many

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civil servants around the country. It is not an issue they would raise

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with me. When he talked about the relationship we have had and that

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negotiations with pensions, a large number of unions have settled on

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the terms. There are a few still holding out. Are they right to?

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believe that it is absolutely right for us to put public sector

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pensions and particularly civil servant pensions on a sustainable

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basis. It will give them a pension that is a defined benefit. It will

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not be related to stock markets. they should accept the deal?

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think it is a sustainable deal, they should take it. I think it is

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the view of a large number of trade unions. The former Labour minister

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says it looks like one law for those at the top, and one for those

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at the bottom. But this does is changed the balance for pensions.

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It reallocate money away from people at the top like I was, to

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those at the bottom. It is a good progressive change. And good timing

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on your part? You cannot help when you retire. That is life. One of

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the things you have done his to look a head at the challengers this

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country faces. Such as keeping this kingdom united. Will we face a

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decision by the end of the next few years over whether to keep the

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union? It is a matter of political debate. I think it is quite likely

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that it was there in the SNP manifesto, it will be likely that

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there is one. What is the likelihood of them getting their

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way.? The Prime Minister has said that this is a matter for the

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:20:02.:20:03.

people of Scotland. The SNP want independence. There may even be a

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lot more devolution and powers to Scotland. Will this be the last few

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years of the Union? I think it is far too early to say. It is looked

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at opinion polls now, if there was a referendum tomorrow in Scotland

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they would vote to keep the union. We will have to see. If you looked

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at Wales as well, strong opinion polls show that they want to stay

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within the Union. At the moment, the status quo of books like

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staying, but who can tell? mentioned the durability of the

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coalition. Will it survive? They passed through Parliament for

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fixed-term parliament. Instead of the incumbent government being able

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to choose when they will have an election, there will be a fixed

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term. Estimate that it goes to the full term, one made 20 15th there

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:21:24.:21:27.

will be an election. -- in May, 2015 they will be an election. Both

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parties have argued strongly a committee to there. They have come

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through that. From what I have seen of the way the Prime Minister and

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Deputy work together, the trust they have, my money is on them

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lasted the full term. He said that your advice on the coalition. If

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you think about it, it is binding to teamed together. If you want

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them to develop trust and work together on the big problems facing

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the country, he did not want them to start off working on an hairier

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what they profoundly disagree. One side will win, at one side will

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lose. Then you have to bring the two back together and make them a

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team again. He have made references to the relationship of the two of

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the top. Perhaps the problem is further down? If the relationship

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at the top works, then i think that will ensure that it permeates

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through the whole of the Cabinet. He talked about the importance of

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being impartial. Do you go? Yes. I have given talks in schools about

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the importance of people who go out of their way to vote. If we did not

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use it, it would be a terrible tragedy. What is it like to go from

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the polling booth, back to Downing Street to carry on working with

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somebody who you may not have voted for? That is the nature of being an

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impartial civil servant. You know that who you work a week to work

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for his to the British electorate had decided,... Do you think the

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British prime ministers may have known how you voted for? No. They

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never asked me. It is not really an issue. Inside the British -- the

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British system, when David Cameron came in as Prime Minister, he had

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the whole of the Office who had been working for Gordon Brown carry

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on working for David Cameron. He did not change anybody. As people

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