Obiageli Ezekwesili - Former Education Minister, Nigeria HARDtalk


Obiageli Ezekwesili - Former Education Minister, Nigeria

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Home Secretary announces a judge`led inquiry into his death. Now on BBC

:00:00.:00:11.

News, it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen

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Sackur. A few months ago international attention was fixed on

:00:15.:00:17.

the remote forests of north`eastern Nigeria, believed to be where 200

:00:18.:00:19.

kidnapped schoolgirls were being held by Boko Haram militants. Well,

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the girls have now been missing for 100 days. Boko Haram's terror

:00:27.:00:29.

campaign continues, but the media focus has shifted elsewhere. My

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guest today is Obiageli Ezekwesili, a former Nigerian minister, and one

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of the leaders of the Bring Back Our Girls campaign. Has their country

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failed these girls and their families?

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Obiageli Ezekwesili, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much,

:01:17.:01:23.

Stephen. It is a grim milestone, isn't it? 100 days since more than

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2`and`1070 schoolgirls were abducted from Chibok, and we believe more

:01:29.:01:34.

than 200 are still missing. What is your overriding emotion right now?

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It is very mixed. On the one hand, they shared pain that does not even

:01:47.:01:53.

come close to what the parents feel. And then on the other hand,

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the optimism that comes from the persistence of the parents, as well

:02:07.:02:09.

as those that empathise with them, that should everything be done,

:02:10.:02:15.

these girls can still be rescued. And so, even though 100 days is on

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us, there is still that hope. Do you really, truly believe that if

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everything is done, these girls can be rescued? Because your former

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boss, he said just the other day that we have to accept that some of

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these girls will never return home. I don't want to think about that.

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The reason is, I absolutely believe in miracles. I actually think that

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there is something divine about these girls. The emphasis that has

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been given to their cause, has come as a result of something that I can

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divine. And I believe, that it is OK to be realistic. `` consider divine.

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And to say that there are possibilities that some of them may

:03:18.:03:23.

not come back. But I don't even want to look at that possibility. You

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know, Stephen, we had the members of the Bring Back Our Girls work on

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three scenarios. And the scenario that nobody wanted to sign on to

:03:37.:03:41.

work was the scenario of a possibility of lack of success in

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their rescue. Well you mentioned the Bring Back Our Girls campaign, of

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course, you are wearing their red lapel badge. You are one of the

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leaders of this campaign, one of those who created it and gave it

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such worldwide impetus. You have been very critical of President

:04:01.:04:02.

Goodluck Jonathan and his handling of this case from the very

:04:03.:04:05.

beginning. It is interesting, is it not, but right now, President

:04:06.:04:10.

Goodluck Jonathan has arranged a meeting with more than 150 people

:04:11.:04:15.

who represent the families of the Chibok girls, plus some members of

:04:16.:04:19.

the local community, all invited to meet him in Abuja. Does this, to

:04:20.:04:25.

you, represent a significant new approach from the government and the

:04:26.:04:32.

President? You know, earlier today, I tweeted on this meeting, and I

:04:33.:04:38.

indicated that this is an opportunity for President Jonathan

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to reach down to the deep recesses of the agonising pain that the

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parents and their entire community of Chibok have wallowed in, in the

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100 days since the abduction of the abductees. And the reason that I

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said that is that there has been a gulf between our leadership and

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these families, as well as the community. In the cause `` course of

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the very tragic incident of the abduction. Why? Why the Gulf ? You

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know, it is something very strange. When I first heard about the

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abduction, it was the day of the bombing on the 14th of April.

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Apparently, by about midnight of the same day, there had been the

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abduction. The day of the bomb blast, I had been so frustrated ly

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angry that we just seemed to hear about the bomb blasts, and we were

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almost becoming a nation of people that they didn't feel anything,

:06:07.:06:13.

every time the bomb went off. And statistically, numbers were given,

:06:14.:06:20.

of victims. So when the next day, we then had the additional news that

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some girls have been abducted from a school, it added to my frustration.

:06:26.:06:35.

But then, when I tweeted at Nigerian parliament saying is it true? What

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is being done to make sure that the girls are being rescued? It took

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three days before there was word from the Nigerian government. Well,

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if I may just interrupts row second, I don't think anybody doubts that

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the perception was the government was slow to respond `` interrupt for

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a second. It then, if you look `` put it in context, the context of

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the mass killings which have seen more than 2000 civilians killed by

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Boko Haram in the first month of this year, the fact that swathes of

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territory are in the control of these Jihadi militants across

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north`eastern Nigeria, then it raises the question, what is the

:07:15.:07:19.

government actually capable of doing? You say they must do more, if

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everything is done, these girls can be returned. But the fact, the

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brutal fact, appears to be that the forces cannot, are not able, to

:07:29.:07:38.

mount a rescue operation. So, if we stretched your very interesting

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perspective further, you would be saying we should give up completely

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on our governments, and give up on our military. I do believe so. I

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believe in the capital state. I believe in the function of

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government `` I don't believe so. As the two are served apparatus. I

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believe ineffective governance. `` the coercive apparatus. As far as I

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can see, that we have challenges with ensuring the security of

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Nigeria, because of the sheer weight of the attacks that the jihad is

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have launched against our country, should not in any way lead to our

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giving up, and saying it simply cannot be done. I don't believe in

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that school of thought. Well you may not believe it, but again, to quote

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your former boss Tom the former president, he says the military that

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we have is not equipped to fight the sort of terrorist who abduct

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children and detonate suicide bombs, they have been trained in

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conventional warfare. We have seen many analysts say that frankly the

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militants are much more capable than the on the ground soldiers who are

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being sent to try and eradicate them. And every problem has a

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solution. And part of what I believe is that we do need to look at our

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counter`insurgency strategy. I don't think that we planned for this, so

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of course, we are not responding as effectively as should be. But my

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sense is that taking full ownership of the problem, and that takes me

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back to the question you asked about the Gulf. Now part of what became

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very clear over the days of the abduction was that it was trapped in

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a lot of suspicion and doubt, and so, there was so much that was being

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questioned as to whether indeed girls were abducted. Now for me as a

:09:41.:09:45.

mother, I wasn't thinking whether girls were abducted, as far as I was

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hearing, some girls went to school, to take their exams, and their

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parents say they cannot find them. Wherever those girls are, it was

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important for our society to respond decisively in identifying their

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location and bringing them back. Well will get back to the

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practicalities of the government's Security response, but I just want

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to focus a little bit on the nature of your campaign. Again, the Bring

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Back Our Girls campaign has had massive worldwide publicity, you

:10:19.:10:21.

have the support of the most prominent sorts of individuals

:10:22.:10:24.

across the world, including first Lady Michelle Obama, Angelina Jolie,

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and a whole bunch of other people right around the world. But the

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problem is, if you boil down a campaign to just those four words,

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Bring Back Our Girls, it makes it seem extraordinarily simple, in a

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way. But as one Nigerian novelist said, it was like lighting candles

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to cure cancer. You know, what is your campaign actually achieved? I

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think that the first important thing that it needed to achieve was to

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call attention to the fact that indeed, there were 219 girls, as now

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established either presidential fact`finding committee, that are

:11:05.:11:11.

missing. That needed to be on everybody's table. 219 human beings

:11:12.:11:19.

had been taken away from their school environment. We needed

:11:20.:11:22.

everyone to acknowledge that. We needed particularly for our

:11:23.:11:27.

government to acknowledge that, and then, we needed to create enough

:11:28.:11:33.

awareness that would lead to compelling action for their rescue.

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Why was that necessary? It was necessary because there had been

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other incidents that happened. And then, everyone moved on. Suddenly,

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the scale of the hideous, we could act of the Jihadi is completely went

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overboard. We were not going to sit around and just, in muted voices,

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comfort the parents who were going to be going through the agony. So we

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needed that action to be taken. But you, if I may say so, took a

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dangerous course. You decided to become openly political about your

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campaign. You talk about raising awareness, but in the words of the

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President himself, who was furious, I think, after a meeting was

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arranged with a limited number of family members, who then snubbed

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him. You set the Bring Back Our Girls campaign has been guilty of

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psychological terrorism, of playing politics with the situation, and

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with the grief apparent that the girls. Are actually refuse to

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imagine that our President would speak on such language. The reason

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is simple. That is not the language of our President. We have never been

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political about this campaign, for vulnerable girls. The people that

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you see it that are part of the Bring Back Our Girls are people who

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are totally modest, who grieved at the fact that for many days, the

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fact that these girls had been abducted, refused to be an issue of

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priority. And for us, everything about politicising the campaign

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sounds like some strange language. I do read your Twitter, you have

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gone on the attack and accused the government of employing a PR firm,

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you called it evil, said they were sneering innocents it is terrorists,

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you have decided to play hardball, with a government that says it is

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doing everything in its power to bring them home. The right question

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would perhaps be why is it that this response has been from Bring Back

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Our Girls. It has been a response of utter shock, that which concerns the

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souls of innocent people. A narrative was being given to it as

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though there was a conversation beyond the human beings. What

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brought out women who predominantly make up the Bring Back Our Girls

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campaign, wasn't anything about politics, it was that sense of the

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bond of shared humanity. Many of these women were women who settled

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themselves, I have kept quiet for too long, while things like this

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happened in the past. The only issue is whether the women themselves, and

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God knows everyone around the world can deeply sympathise with what

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these mothers are going through, the issue is whether the suffering they

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are going through, the plight they find themselves in, is in anyway

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being manipulated political ends. I am quoting government officials. The

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minister for information claims 90% of the Bring Back Our Girls activist

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and campaigners are actually members of the APC opposition movement, is

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that true? I think our information minister is somebody who is good

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with words, but I have always worked on the basis of analytical evidence.

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When he presents me with that analytical evidence, that would be a

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basis to speak to that, but people who come to the Bring Back Our Girls

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campaign on a daily basis are not talking about politics. It is not a

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conversation, these are people who are completely are connected to the

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fact that we cannot be a society that keeps moving on every time

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there is tragedy. We have found a way to become so resilient that we

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will move on. That has destroyed about social capital, and when

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people, when you quote what is said about politics, I talked to my

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husband and said, what is this politics talk that comes to the

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issue of vulnerable girls endangered in the den of terrorists? I said, I

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don't understand it. A guess what it says is that there is something

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poisonous at the moment about the atmosphere in Nigerian public life.

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There are much more important things to talk about, but again, the chief

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spokesman for the President, who was on this programme not long ago, has

:16:35.:16:38.

said of you that you represent an elite who are seeking to run with

:16:39.:16:42.

the issue of the missing girls, and this is his phrase for personal

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aggrandising. He is implying that you see a political opportunity,

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that you may be seeking even to further your ambitions as an

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opposition politician. Be clear with me, is that in any way part of your

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agenda? You know what, I have never been a politician. You have been a

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minister... That I have not been a minister in a Westminster type

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government where I have to stand for elections in order to be a minister.

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It is a presidential system we practice. I went into government to

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offer my skill set. Each time some of these people talk about politics,

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the people who have known me, they just laugh. Me and politics don't go

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together. I am totally not the person that they want to

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characterise. So, you have no intention of entering politics? I

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have never been in politics. I work for the President. In fact, I think

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the President must be laughing his head off every time he hears my

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characterisation as a politician. We will take that as a clear indication

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that you have no personal political ambition. Let's get back to the most

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important thing, which is how, 100 days on from the abduction, to think

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about getting these girls back to their families. How, in your view,

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can it be done? I believe, and had said this consistently, that the

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government has the best set of information and expertise, and the

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kind of knowledge base that would enable it to make the most efficient

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decision. You have no faith in the government, you have made that

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clear... I'm not sure that you are right to say I have no faith in the

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government. The main reason I keep saying this to the government is

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because I happen to be one person who believes in the capability of

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our government to do what it needs to do. Primarily the security and

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safety of the people of Nigeria. There is either a military solution,

:19:01.:19:09.

sending people into forcibly getting the girls out, or you do it through

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negotiation and dialogue. Which routes do you think the government

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should be going down? I believe that the government has the best set of

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information... You have said that... I have heard the government

:19:26.:19:30.

say, if we have a military solution, we would endanger, we

:19:31.:19:37.

could endanger the girls. I have also heard them say there is no

:19:38.:19:41.

negotiation going on. So the reason we continue to say, ring back our

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girls, is that we worry that if all options are dismissed, what then is

:19:47.:19:53.

the solution? We don't have very much time. The government spokesman

:19:54.:20:00.

told me categorically that there were no direct negotiations between

:20:01.:20:04.

his government and Boko Haram. Do you think there should be? I believe

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there needs to be the window to begin a dialogue. Where that leads

:20:10.:20:17.

to we may not know, but we cannot completely dismiss every option.

:20:18.:20:23.

What does that leave us with? It leaves us with a no action

:20:24.:20:27.

situation. Is that really what we want for 219 girls? It is a totally

:20:28.:20:32.

different statement. Would you be prepared to trade Boko Haram

:20:33.:20:37.

prisoners for these girls? I would not be prepared to say that kind of

:20:38.:20:43.

an outright trade. I would be prepared to see an engagement that

:20:44.:20:52.

is a multiple of options. I am clearly adamant that the expertise

:20:53.:20:58.

for combining the instruments would very much be best determined by

:20:59.:21:03.

government. And the many global supporters that we have. You are

:21:04.:21:08.

being a bit hazy on what that means. There is one other specific

:21:09.:21:11.

question. There is the option of sending in more troops, a military

:21:12.:21:16.

crack down, and taking on Boko Haram in the forest directly, hoping that

:21:17.:21:21.

would lead to the freedom of the girls. You think there is a military

:21:22.:21:24.

solution to this? I think there could be a combination of solutions,

:21:25.:21:30.

and that his exact when my point. I am saying, in this situation the one

:21:31.:21:37.

with the best information is best suited for determining the ultimate

:21:38.:21:41.

combination. What I don't want is a state of information that conveys

:21:42.:21:50.

that no action is being taken. Every time you hear from a spokesperson,

:21:51.:21:57.

dismissing a particular option, then another option, then dismissing any

:21:58.:22:02.

other option, you are saying to yourself, what is the evidence of

:22:03.:22:09.

options? It is inflammatory, in the end, what you are saying. I think

:22:10.:22:15.

you are trying to be as polite as you can, but you are suggesting that

:22:16.:22:18.

the government of Goodluck Jonathan is fundamentally failing these girls

:22:19.:22:23.

and their families, yes? I think in the first few days of their

:22:24.:22:26.

abduction and I felt absolutely that way, because there was no

:22:27.:22:31.

acknowledgement. You still feel that way today? I don't completely feel

:22:32.:22:36.

that way today. I feel that there is a need to avoid any form of

:22:37.:22:42.

inertia. If you should say to yourself, reasonable human beings

:22:43.:22:48.

that we are, why do we continue to say, we compel that action be taken,

:22:49.:22:54.

it is because there is a social capital issue going on. I think that

:22:55.:22:59.

in many ways the appearance, the community, the people who share the

:23:00.:23:06.

pain of these families, are simply saying, let there be evidence of

:23:07.:23:12.

action being taken. A final thought, a great Nigerian writer who was on

:23:13.:23:21.

this show recently said, these are moments when I feel Nigeria is a

:23:22.:23:25.

failed state. As someone at the very top of Nigerian public life today,

:23:26.:23:31.

do you feel that Nigeria is a failed is a? Nigeria is not a failed state,

:23:32.:23:40.

but Nigeria has a problem of failed institutions. I think some of our

:23:41.:23:45.

institutions have not operated at their best, and this is the result

:23:46.:23:53.

of poor governance of institutions, and for me, part of the reason it is

:23:54.:24:01.

important to understand the advocacy for these girls, is that it brings

:24:02.:24:07.

the issue of demand for good governments of institutions ``

:24:08.:24:14.

governance. That the standards of governance have to be higher than

:24:15.:24:19.

used to be the case. Obiageli Ezekwesili, we have here and there,

:24:20.:24:26.

but thank you for being on HARDtalk. `` we have two .

:24:27.:24:48.

Tuesday was a scorcher across the country, with plenty of sunshine.

:24:49.:24:54.

For parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland, the warmest day of the

:24:55.:25:03.

year so far. 20 degrees in Lerwick. We saw our top temperature of 30

:25:04.:25:07.

degrees on the South Coast. We

:25:08.:25:08.

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