Obiageli Ezekwesili - Former Education Minister, Nigeria HARDtalk

Home Secretary announces a judge`led inquiry into his death. Now on BBC

News, it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen

Sackur. A few months ago international attention was fixed on

the remote forests of north`eastern Nigeria, believed to be where 200

kidnapped schoolgirls were being held by Boko Haram militants. Well,

the girls have now been missing for 100 days. Boko Haram's terror

campaign continues, but the media focus has shifted elsewhere. My

guest today is Obiageli Ezekwesili, a former Nigerian minister, and one

of the leaders of the Bring Back Our Girls campaign. Has their country

failed these girls and their families?

Obiageli Ezekwesili, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much,

Stephen. It is a grim milestone, isn't it? 100 days since more than

2`and`1070 schoolgirls were abducted from Chibok, and we believe more

than 200 are still missing. What is your overriding emotion right now?

It is very mixed. On the one hand, they shared pain that does not even

come close to what the parents feel. And then on the other hand,

the optimism that comes from the persistence of the parents, as well

as those that empathise with them, that should everything be done,

these girls can still be rescued. And so, even though 100 days is on

us, there is still that hope. Do you really, truly believe that if

everything is done, these girls can be rescued? Because your former

boss, he said just the other day that we have to accept that some of

these girls will never return home. I don't want to think about that.

The reason is, I absolutely believe in miracles. I actually think that

there is something divine about these girls. The emphasis that has

been given to their cause, has come as a result of something that I can

divine. And I believe, that it is OK to be realistic. `` consider divine.

And to say that there are possibilities that some of them may

not come back. But I don't even want to look at that possibility. You

know, Stephen, we had the members of the Bring Back Our Girls work on

three scenarios. And the scenario that nobody wanted to sign on to

work was the scenario of a possibility of lack of success in

their rescue. Well you mentioned the Bring Back Our Girls campaign, of

course, you are wearing their red lapel badge. You are one of the

leaders of this campaign, one of those who created it and gave it

such worldwide impetus. You have been very critical of President

Goodluck Jonathan and his handling of this case from the very

beginning. It is interesting, is it not, but right now, President

Goodluck Jonathan has arranged a meeting with more than 150 people

who represent the families of the Chibok girls, plus some members of

the local community, all invited to meet him in Abuja. Does this, to

you, represent a significant new approach from the government and the

President? You know, earlier today, I tweeted on this meeting, and I

indicated that this is an opportunity for President Jonathan

to reach down to the deep recesses of the agonising pain that the

parents and their entire community of Chibok have wallowed in, in the

100 days since the abduction of the abductees. And the reason that I

said that is that there has been a gulf between our leadership and

these families, as well as the community. In the cause `` course of

the very tragic incident of the abduction. Why? Why the Gulf ? You

know, it is something very strange. When I first heard about the

abduction, it was the day of the bombing on the 14th of April.

Apparently, by about midnight of the same day, there had been the

abduction. The day of the bomb blast, I had been so frustrated ly

angry that we just seemed to hear about the bomb blasts, and we were

almost becoming a nation of people that they didn't feel anything,

every time the bomb went off. And statistically, numbers were given,

of victims. So when the next day, we then had the additional news that

some girls have been abducted from a school, it added to my frustration.

But then, when I tweeted at Nigerian parliament saying is it true? What

is being done to make sure that the girls are being rescued? It took

three days before there was word from the Nigerian government. Well,

if I may just interrupts row second, I don't think anybody doubts that

the perception was the government was slow to respond `` interrupt for

a second. It then, if you look `` put it in context, the context of

the mass killings which have seen more than 2000 civilians killed by

Boko Haram in the first month of this year, the fact that swathes of

territory are in the control of these Jihadi militants across

north`eastern Nigeria, then it raises the question, what is the

government actually capable of doing? You say they must do more, if

everything is done, these girls can be returned. But the fact, the

brutal fact, appears to be that the forces cannot, are not able, to

mount a rescue operation. So, if we stretched your very interesting

perspective further, you would be saying we should give up completely

on our governments, and give up on our military. I do believe so. I

believe in the capital state. I believe in the function of

government `` I don't believe so. As the two are served apparatus. I

believe ineffective governance. `` the coercive apparatus. As far as I

can see, that we have challenges with ensuring the security of

Nigeria, because of the sheer weight of the attacks that the jihad is

have launched against our country, should not in any way lead to our

giving up, and saying it simply cannot be done. I don't believe in

that school of thought. Well you may not believe it, but again, to quote

your former boss Tom the former president, he says the military that

we have is not equipped to fight the sort of terrorist who abduct

children and detonate suicide bombs, they have been trained in

conventional warfare. We have seen many analysts say that frankly the

militants are much more capable than the on the ground soldiers who are

being sent to try and eradicate them. And every problem has a

solution. And part of what I believe is that we do need to look at our

counter`insurgency strategy. I don't think that we planned for this, so

of course, we are not responding as effectively as should be. But my

sense is that taking full ownership of the problem, and that takes me

back to the question you asked about the Gulf. Now part of what became

very clear over the days of the abduction was that it was trapped in

a lot of suspicion and doubt, and so, there was so much that was being

questioned as to whether indeed girls were abducted. Now for me as a

mother, I wasn't thinking whether girls were abducted, as far as I was

hearing, some girls went to school, to take their exams, and their

parents say they cannot find them. Wherever those girls are, it was

important for our society to respond decisively in identifying their

location and bringing them back. Well will get back to the

practicalities of the government's Security response, but I just want

to focus a little bit on the nature of your campaign. Again, the Bring

Back Our Girls campaign has had massive worldwide publicity, you

have the support of the most prominent sorts of individuals

across the world, including first Lady Michelle Obama, Angelina Jolie,

and a whole bunch of other people right around the world. But the

problem is, if you boil down a campaign to just those four words,

Bring Back Our Girls, it makes it seem extraordinarily simple, in a

way. But as one Nigerian novelist said, it was like lighting candles

to cure cancer. You know, what is your campaign actually achieved? I

think that the first important thing that it needed to achieve was to

call attention to the fact that indeed, there were 219 girls, as now

established either presidential fact`finding committee, that are

missing. That needed to be on everybody's table. 219 human beings

had been taken away from their school environment. We needed

everyone to acknowledge that. We needed particularly for our

government to acknowledge that, and then, we needed to create enough

awareness that would lead to compelling action for their rescue.

Why was that necessary? It was necessary because there had been

other incidents that happened. And then, everyone moved on. Suddenly,

the scale of the hideous, we could act of the Jihadi is completely went

overboard. We were not going to sit around and just, in muted voices,

comfort the parents who were going to be going through the agony. So we

needed that action to be taken. But you, if I may say so, took a

dangerous course. You decided to become openly political about your

campaign. You talk about raising awareness, but in the words of the

President himself, who was furious, I think, after a meeting was

arranged with a limited number of family members, who then snubbed

him. You set the Bring Back Our Girls campaign has been guilty of

psychological terrorism, of playing politics with the situation, and

with the grief apparent that the girls. Are actually refuse to

imagine that our President would speak on such language. The reason

is simple. That is not the language of our President. We have never been

political about this campaign, for vulnerable girls. The people that

you see it that are part of the Bring Back Our Girls are people who

are totally modest, who grieved at the fact that for many days, the

fact that these girls had been abducted, refused to be an issue of

priority. And for us, everything about politicising the campaign

sounds like some strange language. I do read your Twitter, you have

gone on the attack and accused the government of employing a PR firm,

you called it evil, said they were sneering innocents it is terrorists,

you have decided to play hardball, with a government that says it is

doing everything in its power to bring them home. The right question

would perhaps be why is it that this response has been from Bring Back

Our Girls. It has been a response of utter shock, that which concerns the

souls of innocent people. A narrative was being given to it as

though there was a conversation beyond the human beings. What

brought out women who predominantly make up the Bring Back Our Girls

campaign, wasn't anything about politics, it was that sense of the

bond of shared humanity. Many of these women were women who settled

themselves, I have kept quiet for too long, while things like this

happened in the past. The only issue is whether the women themselves, and

God knows everyone around the world can deeply sympathise with what

these mothers are going through, the issue is whether the suffering they

are going through, the plight they find themselves in, is in anyway

being manipulated political ends. I am quoting government officials. The

minister for information claims 90% of the Bring Back Our Girls activist

and campaigners are actually members of the APC opposition movement, is

that true? I think our information minister is somebody who is good

with words, but I have always worked on the basis of analytical evidence.

When he presents me with that analytical evidence, that would be a

basis to speak to that, but people who come to the Bring Back Our Girls

campaign on a daily basis are not talking about politics. It is not a

conversation, these are people who are completely are connected to the

fact that we cannot be a society that keeps moving on every time

there is tragedy. We have found a way to become so resilient that we

will move on. That has destroyed about social capital, and when

people, when you quote what is said about politics, I talked to my

husband and said, what is this politics talk that comes to the

issue of vulnerable girls endangered in the den of terrorists? I said, I

don't understand it. A guess what it says is that there is something

poisonous at the moment about the atmosphere in Nigerian public life.

There are much more important things to talk about, but again, the chief

spokesman for the President, who was on this programme not long ago, has

said of you that you represent an elite who are seeking to run with

the issue of the missing girls, and this is his phrase for personal

aggrandising. He is implying that you see a political opportunity,

that you may be seeking even to further your ambitions as an

opposition politician. Be clear with me, is that in any way part of your

agenda? You know what, I have never been a politician. You have been a

minister... That I have not been a minister in a Westminster type

government where I have to stand for elections in order to be a minister.

It is a presidential system we practice. I went into government to

offer my skill set. Each time some of these people talk about politics,

the people who have known me, they just laugh. Me and politics don't go

together. I am totally not the person that they want to

characterise. So, you have no intention of entering politics? I

have never been in politics. I work for the President. In fact, I think

the President must be laughing his head off every time he hears my

characterisation as a politician. We will take that as a clear indication

that you have no personal political ambition. Let's get back to the most

important thing, which is how, 100 days on from the abduction, to think

about getting these girls back to their families. How, in your view,

can it be done? I believe, and had said this consistently, that the

government has the best set of information and expertise, and the

kind of knowledge base that would enable it to make the most efficient

decision. You have no faith in the government, you have made that

clear... I'm not sure that you are right to say I have no faith in the

government. The main reason I keep saying this to the government is

because I happen to be one person who believes in the capability of

our government to do what it needs to do. Primarily the security and

safety of the people of Nigeria. There is either a military solution,

sending people into forcibly getting the girls out, or you do it through

negotiation and dialogue. Which routes do you think the government

should be going down? I believe that the government has the best set of

information... You have said that... I have heard the government

say, if we have a military solution, we would endanger, we

could endanger the girls. I have also heard them say there is no

negotiation going on. So the reason we continue to say, ring back our

girls, is that we worry that if all options are dismissed, what then is

the solution? We don't have very much time. The government spokesman

told me categorically that there were no direct negotiations between

his government and Boko Haram. Do you think there should be? I believe

there needs to be the window to begin a dialogue. Where that leads

to we may not know, but we cannot completely dismiss every option.

What does that leave us with? It leaves us with a no action

situation. Is that really what we want for 219 girls? It is a totally

different statement. Would you be prepared to trade Boko Haram

prisoners for these girls? I would not be prepared to say that kind of

an outright trade. I would be prepared to see an engagement that

is a multiple of options. I am clearly adamant that the expertise

for combining the instruments would very much be best determined by

government. And the many global supporters that we have. You are

being a bit hazy on what that means. There is one other specific

question. There is the option of sending in more troops, a military

crack down, and taking on Boko Haram in the forest directly, hoping that

would lead to the freedom of the girls. You think there is a military

solution to this? I think there could be a combination of solutions,

and that his exact when my point. I am saying, in this situation the one

with the best information is best suited for determining the ultimate

combination. What I don't want is a state of information that conveys

that no action is being taken. Every time you hear from a spokesperson,

dismissing a particular option, then another option, then dismissing any

other option, you are saying to yourself, what is the evidence of

options? It is inflammatory, in the end, what you are saying. I think

you are trying to be as polite as you can, but you are suggesting that

the government of Goodluck Jonathan is fundamentally failing these girls

and their families, yes? I think in the first few days of their

abduction and I felt absolutely that way, because there was no

acknowledgement. You still feel that way today? I don't completely feel

that way today. I feel that there is a need to avoid any form of

inertia. If you should say to yourself, reasonable human beings

that we are, why do we continue to say, we compel that action be taken,

it is because there is a social capital issue going on. I think that

in many ways the appearance, the community, the people who share the

pain of these families, are simply saying, let there be evidence of

action being taken. A final thought, a great Nigerian writer who was on

this show recently said, these are moments when I feel Nigeria is a

failed state. As someone at the very top of Nigerian public life today,

do you feel that Nigeria is a failed is a? Nigeria is not a failed state,

but Nigeria has a problem of failed institutions. I think some of our

institutions have not operated at their best, and this is the result

of poor governance of institutions, and for me, part of the reason it is

important to understand the advocacy for these girls, is that it brings

the issue of demand for good governments of institutions ``

governance. That the standards of governance have to be higher than

used to be the case. Obiageli Ezekwesili, we have here and there,

but thank you for being on HARDtalk. `` we have two .

Tuesday was a scorcher across the country, with plenty of sunshine.

For parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland, the warmest day of the

year so far. 20 degrees in Lerwick. We saw our top temperature of 30

degrees on the South Coast. We