Danny Danon - Former Deputy Defence Minister, Israel HARDtalk

territories will begin competing in the 11 day event. Now on BBC News,

it's time for HARDtalk. Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Zeinab Badawi.

Israel says its current campaign in Gaza is in response to rocket

strikes from Hamas militants, and is aimed at destroying illicit tunnels

Hamas uses to smuggle arms. In more than two weeks of conflict around

600 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have been killed and nearly 4,000

wounded. The UN Human Rights Commissioner says Israel may have

committed war crimes. About 30 Israelis have died, nearly all of

them soldiers. My guest today is Danny Danon, a member of the Israeli

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud Party. He was dismissed as

Deputy Defence Minister earlier this month for accusing the Prime

Minister of being too weak in his Gaza campaign. How does he justify

the high Palestinian death toll? Danny Danon, in Jerusalem, welcome

to HARDtalk. Do you believe that an unacceptably high number of

Palestinian civilians have died in this current conflict? I thank you

for having me today on your show. Yes, we see the numbers, we see the

pictures, and we regret it. Even the loss of one child, one civilian, it

is a pity, and we do regret it. But we have to blame Hamas for that. We

have to blame Hamas with actually using the Palestinians as human

shields. Using them in order to protect them. And Hamas state their

fighters are going to fight us, why are they not fighting? Why are they

hiding in schools? Why are they hiding in hospitals? Why are they

not coming to fight with us, and they are using the civilians? It is

a pity. Do you accept that Israel is attracting a great deal of criticism

in the international community for the high number of Palestinian

civilian deaths? Israel is attracting criticism is. Not just

Hamas, but your country as well. We are in the middle of a military

operation. We are not in a position now to assess who is supporting us,

who is not supporting us. We know it is not easy to fight inside civilian

populations. It is very hard for us. We do the best to avoid casualties.

And unlike Hamas, who is using the civilians to hide, and is targeting

the civilians in Israel, we do exactly the opposite. We do our

best, we even colder civilians and asked them to deploy, to move out

from the neighbourhoods, and is not to allow Hamas. But I know it is

very hard for them. You cannot lay in the civilians, because Hamas is

threatening them, is using them. Yes, we are worried about what our

friends in other countries think. But in a time of war, in the time of

conflict, we have to do everything necessary to protect ourselves. The

United Nations Human Rights Commissioner has said in an

emergency session of the UN human rights commission on Wednesday that

the killings of the children, she is talking about in particular, let me

just remind you that around 147 children under the age of 18,

Palestinians have been killed. She said they killings raise concerns

about respect for the principles of distinction, proportionality, and

precautions in attack. Let's just take this at first, one of these

points. Porsche and Audi. Do you believe that Israel's response to

the campaign by Hamas has been a proportional one? ``

proportionality. Absolutely. When you look at proportion, you ask

yourself, when you have millions of Israelis running into shelters,

hundreds of missiles. And look at myself. When my daughters, for the

last two week, have to wake up in the middle of the night in front of

a shelter every night. This is not a way to live. The only thing we ask

is to live peacefully in Israel. That is not much. And we are

defending ourselves. OK, I'll just reiterate my question to you, Danny

Danon. It Israel's response are proportionate one? Around 650

Palestinians have been killed, 74% of them, according to the United

Nations, are civilians. 147 children. Two disabled women. I am

just give you some examples here. And, regrettably, on the Israeli

side, around 30, a handful of them civilians. Does that sound to you

like a proportionate response? I regret the loss of anyone. But if

you look at numbers, you can go back to World War II, when the UK

targeted civilian populations in Germany. More than 25 people died in

Dresden, when you are in a conflict, you do whatever you need

to protect your people. And we're doing it now. The order that we give

to our soldiers, to our troops, do not hurt the civilians. Even if it

means that you cannot catch the terrorists. They are paying a heavy

price. When you look at the numbers. When you look at the numbers, we

broader history, but let's just focus on what's going on in the Gaza

campaign now. Simple question, I'd appreciate a simple answer, sir. Do

you think Israel's response is a proportionate one? I think it is the

appropriate response. Because we are defending ourselves. I wonder what

would be the reaction of the UK army, if you had Al Qaeda attack in

East London. If you were being attacked, your house, what would be

the response of the US? Of the EU? When you are under attack, you

protect yourself. It is self defence. That is what we are doing.

We did not choose to fight. We do not want to fight. We have no other

choice, because Hamas is the one who is actually hurting the civilians in

Israel, and we are protecting them. Another point that was made was this

point of distinction. Identifying who is a militant and who is not, by

the UN human rights commission. Her spokesperson, Rupert Colvile, has

spoken about one particular incident on July the 16th, when kids playing

on the beach were struck not just once but twice, the set. There was

an air strike. When the survivors started running, they were struck

again. This time, we believe, in the water. Israel's argument is that

there was a military target nearby. But that is too easy. The numbers

speak for themselves. How can you justify that? I will not go inside a

particular incident. But I tell you here and now. We regret it. We are

sorry about it. But Hamas is killing civilians, they are celebrating.

This is the difference. When we have civilians `` when we hurt

civilians, we apologise. It is not our goal. But with Hamas... I was

making a different point, and I appreciate what you are saying. And

your distinction is that Hamas deliberately target civilians. I

have not made that point to you. Hamas is also celebrating went

Israelis... We do not. And we do take responsibility. I was making a

different point though. Which was, how does the Israeli Defence

Forces, the IDF, identify civilians from militants? Because I tell you,

in this particular case, one journalist, William booth from the

Washington Post, was amongst several foreign journalists at the hotel

nearby. He said these boys were scrawny fishermen's kids, whom we

saw every day running around on the beach, playing in the waves. They

were aged between seven and 11. Your deputy Defence Minister until a few

days ago. How can the IDF get it so wrong that kids under the age of 11

could be mistaken for militants? When you are in a war, things like

that happen. We do not intend to do it. Look at the numbers of the US.

In the last five years, the US targeted terrorists in Yemen and

Afghanistan. 2400 people were killed by drones only. You know how many

civilians were among them? When you have a terrorist hiding behind

kids, behind schools, hospitals, it happens. You should blame the

terrorist for using the kids and civilian population. Not the ones

who are fighting against the terrorists. OK, can I say that on

this particular issue, Israel saying that Hamas uses civilian structures,

hospitals, schools, and also uses humans as civilians as human

shields, this is what one commentator has said, a highly

respected Palestinian member of the PLO. She said on the 22nd of July,

on CNN, in response to your claim, this is just cruel and heartless

propaganda. It is a spin that adds insult to injury, and is

intolerable, because it is a habitual pattern of Israeli

discourse. Blame the victims, blame them for losing their own lives. You

know, she can say whatever she wants. But the fact that she hasn't

been to Gaza for the last nine years, do you know why? Because if

she will go to Gaza, she would be shocked by the Hamas. The last time

the Hamas and the Fatah met, the Hamas... So we know with whom we are

dealing, with Hamas. Even the people elsewhere in the Senate. They know

that if they come to Gaza, they may not get out. Hamas is a terrorist

organisation, and it is very hard to deal with a terrorist organisation

which doesn't care about what will happen to the civilian copulation.

There, you've made that point. I appreciate that, Danny Danon. But on

this question of Hamas using human shields, OK, you have rebutted what

the journalist said by saying she lives on the West Bank and hasn't

been to Gaza. Another commentator, who founded the disabled home 24

years ago that was struck, said there was no one from Islamic jihad

or Hamas living there. We are not involved in politics. I told you

before. And I think we can agree about it. When you have terrorists

hiding behind civilians, civilians will be hurt. It will be like that

also in the future unfortunately. We will not be able to uproot Hamas,

then we will continue to use civilians. We will continue to put

kids on the frontline. You know what is happening now in Gaza. It became

the command centre of Hamas. This is a war crime. They are using

ambulances to move soldiers from a place to another place. They don't

care about the law, they don't care about it. And we had to fight these

people. It is not easy for us, but we are committed to do it. OK, I've

been quoting the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner to. Cachia

said on several occasions and reiterated again in her latest

comments that Hamas firing rockets into Israel, targeting civilians,

could constitute a war crime. She has said that. But I am now asking

you to look at what the Israeli defence force, the Israeli

appreciate that what you have said appreciate that what you have said

about Hamas, you have been repeating. But I just want to

continue on this point that you have made that you don't target

civilians. And I'm not saying that you are, but you have said that you

give civilians are warning that they should flee an area that you are

about to hit. But you know? This is what a spokesman for the United

Nations office for humanitarian assistance told a news briefing in

Geneva this week. There is literally no safe place for civilians in Gaza.

Maybe you will tell me what we should do to fight Hamas relief they

are hiding behind civilians. Do you have other ideas? `` if they are.

What do we do if we have people under attack by Hamas hiding in

hospitals? Should we sit by and say, we have nothing to do, let's wait

until they can kill more. Let's allow them to build more tunnels and

commit messages in our communities. A terrorist organisation are hiding

behind civilians. It is very hard and sometimes come at civilians ``

that sometimes civilians. They have different values to you and I. I was

putting to you the fact that you are failing to protect civilians in

Gaza. The UN says, I am not give new quotes, they say, where do people

flee? There have been cases where people have heeded warnings from the

Israelis and gone to different areas they believed were safe and they

have been shelled there. That is the point, they have nowhere to run. In

some neighbourhoods, I know that we gave warnings with text messages, we

call them, we initiated contact with them and they did not leave their

homes. They couldn't leave. They wanted to go, at the Hamas

terrorists told them they couldn't leave. It isn't easy. We aren't

dealing with a western society environment. Unfortunately, those

people are hostages in the hands of Hamas. They are being used by them.

When I see the pictures coming from Gaza, I am very sorry. It makes me

sad. The Hamas are not sorry. They are happy about those pictures. They

are using them to continue with their propaganda. It is a pity. We

have to realise that. Your PM Benjamin Netanyahu said on CNN a

couple of days ago that the Hamas are using telegenic that

Palestinians for their own cause. Those were his exact wards. On this

question of where the Palestinians can flee, obviously the borders of

Gaza are closed, so they cannot leave Gaza. Nearly 2 million people

in an area which is 25 miles long and seven miles at its widest. Just

another example. BBC world affairs editor John Simpson said on a report

on BBC that one resident in Satan, with an extended family of 45, told

him we received the warnings to leave, but where do we go, the whole

Gaza Strip is just a small box `` Zeitun. My point is this, when you

say that you give warnings to civilians to leave, they can't heed

those warnings necessarily, even if they can. First of all, I agree with

you that to be a resident in Gaza today is unpleasant. It is hard. I

understand. Yes, they can move. Before we operate in a

neighbourhood, they can move to another part of Gaza, it isn't a

small town. They can move to another place. We have seen it in the past.

Unfortunately, in this operation, we haven't seen people running away

before we move on. The reason they didn't do it, because they were

threatened. In the past, you saw them going on their feet, by moving

to another part of Gaza. We haven't seen it this time because Hamas

understood that if they leave, it will be hard for them to hide. That

is why we do see so many casualties. See so many casualties, OK. I put it

to you that you are getting a lot of criticisms internationally. One

example, the French Foreign Minister said on July 20 `` July 22,

Israel's response has to be proportionate. 600 dead is obviously

something we can't accept. Nothing justifies continued and tax and

messages which we do nothing but only claim more victims and stoke

tensions and hatred `` which will do nothing. He uses strong language.

Massacres. He says your response is not proportionate. He makes a third

point which is, at it doesn't achieve your objectives, it merely

stokes hatred `` it doesn't. We hear those voices. We hear other voices.

Carry, `` the Secretary General John Kerry came and said something else.

Hamas would be able to continue to send metals into our towns. They

won't be able to dig tunnels beneath the . `` the border. We have no

Jewish communities, settlements, communities they are. We went out of

Gaza. Instead of using the houses we used, the `` they took it. Instead

of making Singapore the Gaza of the Middle East, they made it. Israel's

blockade of Gaza has impoverished the puzzle skinny and is ``

Palestinians. The people of Gaza haven't been flourishing. Let's

speak about the blockade. I would like to, but in the context of the

ceasefire, which are the Palestinians say, including

President Mahmud of us, not just Hamas, that they will grease to the

Government they will agree to the blockade if the ceasefire is lifted

`` they will agree. We want to see them get electricity, gas, food, all

they need from Gaza. What happens now? We allowed them to come from

the port of Israel. They built tunnels to dig under the border. We

want to see prosperity in Gaza. As long as Hamas is in charge, they

will use everything we allow them in order to build more tunnels,

missiles. This is unfortunate. Instead of using the cement for

hospitals and kindergartens, the use it for tunnels. That would be a

problem unless we are crude Hamas today. Just on those tunnels, one

commentator from the Financial Times says, it would be easier to monitor

traffic into Gaza if the borders were reopened `` uproot. As one

Palestinian Member of Parliament said, have international monitors to

see what is going in and out of Gaza to ensure that the wrong stuff isn't

going in. Let's make a distinction. The tunnels are talking about are

offensive tunnels for Hamas commandos to go inside Israel, to

kidnap children and commit messages inside Israel. We aren't talking

about tunnels are used to have. These tunnels, they have dozens of

them. Maybe more. They are used to kidnap children, to kill Jewish

people inside Israel. You see the amount of cement. Technology,

electricity that they put into the tunnels is scary. You fell out with

PM Benjamin Netanyahu because you said his response has been to

feeble. What is your recipe for success? Just carry on, intensify

the Israeli action on Gaza to completely obliterate these tunnels,

regardless of the human cost `` too feeble. I had an argument with the

PM because he accepted the premature ceasefire on Tuesday, which was a

mistake. You cannot accept a ceasefire when you have hundreds of

missiles in your hometown is, when you have dozens of tunnels risking

your children. Now, what the PM and Government is doing is the right

thing. We are discovering the tunnels, fighting against Hamas and

we won't allow them to go back to square one. We are willing to talk

about the future with the Palestinians, but to allow Hamas to

become stronger again something we shouldn't allow. Have you revised

the opinion of the PM? Do you now back in 100%? Have you told him

that? Has he said anything back to you? Absolutely. The minute he went

into the operation are told him publicly I support the PM and

government. The criticism was when he accepted the ceasefire. I can't

understand how we can except the ceasefire when we have so many

tunnels, missiles, in our direction. That is something I couldn't accept

and I said it publicly. Now, the PM has my full support of these ground

operations. What do you think the Israeli response will be to this

united demand by Palestine, including the President, not only

Hamas's request, that the ceasefire will be ex` acted if the blockade on

Gaza is lifted and if it's borders are opened? The biggest problem is

that we aren't dealing with a rational player. You are talking

about Abbas? Are you saying he is not rational? I am saying that Hamas

isn't rational. All of the mediators coming to Israel, we are happy they

are coming to help us. But, Hamas isn't rational. It isn't just Hamas,

by the technocratic government, the PM, they have said, they want the

blockade lifted. It has impoverished the people of Gaza to an extent

which the UN accepts that before that blockade there was a vibrant

economy. Now, 80% of the people of Gaza rely on handouts. They live in

crowded conditions that are unsanitary. Not only Hamas make this

request. What is the likelihood of Israel responding? We want to see

prosperity in Gaza. We want to see the people in Gaza have a better

education system, a better economy. When we look at Hamas and what they

are doing, when we see what you have given them, the US, the UN, what

they use the technology for, and we understand it won't work. They will

use it against us. We want to see a better life for the people in Gaza,

but with Hamas, it won't happen. President Peres of Israel said that

the solution must be political, not military. Is he right or wrong,

briefly? He is right regarding the vision. He is wrong about the

partner. Hamas is not a partner for peace. They are a problem. When you

have one, you have to deal with it, not ignore it. Danny Danon in

Jerusalem, thank you very much for coming onto HARDtalk. Thank you very

much. Once again, Wednesday was the

warmest of the year. That is a cross paths of Scotland, Northern Ireland

and into Wales. It was different if you were stuck under this low level

cloud affecting parts of eastern shores for a while. The temperature

is locked solidly into