Matthew Barzun, US Ambassador to the UK HARDtalk


Matthew Barzun, US Ambassador to the UK

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from 29 officers to four. They will continue to follow focus lines of

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enquiry. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk. By the time George W Bush left the White House,

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perceptions of the United States in the wider world were overwhelmingly

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negative. As the Obama presidency enters its final phase, how have

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attitudes shifted? A greater focus on soft, rather than hard power. A

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yes we can commitment to heal political wounds at home and abroad.

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My guest today is the US ambassador to the UK, Matthew Barzun, a close

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ally of Obama. Has the promise been fulfilled?

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Ambassador Matthew Barzun, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having

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me. Why bad it is your job to explain the policies adopted by the

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US government. -- It is your job. It is part of the job. The other part

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of the job is to listen to what the people of the UK are thinking and

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feeling. What about the idea that the US government may be doing

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things that are difficult for you to feel good about yourself? How does

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that make you feel? Most of the time I do things I am proud of. We are

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trying to make the world more peaceful, more prosperous and more

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just. Those things are hard to do but sometimes I am in the position

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of having difficult conversations about difficult subjects but that is

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all part of it. What is different in your position compared with the

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senior diplomats in other countries, you are a political appointee. You

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got your job because you are a friend, an ally of, a help of Barack

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Obama. He trusted you and wanted to give you a top appointment. That

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makes you a political appointees rather than a career diplomat. When

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you hear senior American politicians coming to Europe, saying, I do not

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believe that Barack Obama truly loves America, how do you feel when

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you hear that? We have lots of Americans coming through London and

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exercising their free speech and saying things. In that case, he is

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certainly saying something I do not agree with. Of course he loves his

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country. He demonstrates that every single day in the most amazing way.

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It is an extraordinary thing for a senior politician to say of their

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own president. It sort of suggests a poisonous, political atmosphere in

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Washington. I wonder whether you feel that atmosphere is damaging to

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America abroad. I think it is hard to get excited about political

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vitriol in our nation's the door. That is not a healthy thing. It is

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important to put it into perspective. Our democratic system

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is loud and confrontational. If you look back to 1800 and John Adams,

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the first guy we sent here as an Amnesty, it was pretty tough. Back

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then it was pretty tough. It works for us but you can go over the line

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in questioning someone's patriotism. Crossed a line. You talk about

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vitriol there is in the American political system. That are similar

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tensions in other systems. Right now it is election season in the United

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States and you are watching it very closely. In Europe, we are. I was in

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conference the other day and there was a live satellite linkup with

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Donald Trump, currently front runner in all the polls for the Republican

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nomination. He said to the assembled audience, the problem is, when

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Barack Obama sits in a room with, Putin has absolutely no respect for

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Barack Obama. Again, as a US ambassador representing the US

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government, do you worry about the respect that Obama commands around

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the world? I wake up every single day and do this wonderful job,

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working for the president, working for the United States. I see and I

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hear every single day the respect that people in the UK have for the

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job he is doing. That fact is, I do not want to get dragged into

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domestic politics back home, a key part of the job is that I do not get

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into party politics back home. I am not responding to any particular

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comments you may just have mentioned. President Obama from day

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one has been clear that America has two lead and he will lead. How he

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leads and his style of leadership, which is important in his working,

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is different from how others will do it. Let's judge it by its fruits.

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You talk about the commitment to leave. Perhaps the signature

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commitment at the beginning of the pregnancy -- presidency was to

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disentangle America from commitments he felt were counter-productive. I

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went back and read his first inaugural. I was with 2 million

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others on a cold, January day. He talks about rebuilding alliances and

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working with old friends and former foes. He says a great and powerful

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line. We will extend our hands if you unclench your fist. So, in all

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of those examples he realised the threats we face as a country and the

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opportunity to be had in front of us, all of them require American

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leadership. America cannot do them on their own, nor can they dumb

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about be done -- nor can they be done without American leadership.

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When he fulfilled his commitment to pull US forces out of Iraq, in

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retrospect it look like something of a mistake. US forces are now back in

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Iraq as advisers, thousands of them. That is true. Let's remember how

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that happened. The democratically elected government of Iraq asked us

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to leave. Now, the democratically elected government asked us to

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return. The US government also had the decision to take, whether it was

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going to act lead to a request to leave, which could have been

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political, or whether the Americans felt, baby in Afghanistan this is

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relevant as well, that there needed to be a long-term and military

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commitment to the safeguarding of these countries and whether Obama

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believed he could disengage and has had to learn through bitter

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experience. It is not as simple as that. I I disagree that

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disengagement was his approach from the beginning. That's good back to

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2009, there was an economic crisis and two major ground operations.

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What he said at the time was, being on a perpetual war footing with

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major ground troops is not sustainable. It is not sustainable

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economically and it is not sustainable for us. It is not a

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healthy thing. He talked about specific terrorist networks trying

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to help -- hurt us and our allies. It was about having a sustainable

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way to keep us safe. It is about having partnerships with people like

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the Government in Afghanistan. We can help them train Armed Forces so

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they can secure themselves. Then the much less glamorous work of building

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rule of law and capacity so they can become safe, secure and stable. What

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is the message from Syria? You are sitting in Europe, representing the

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United States. The message from a banner in 2012 was that President

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Assad must go. If he uses chemical weapons, we will respond militarily.

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He actually said, if a side uses chemical weapons, that will change

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my calculus. That represents a red line for us. What then does that

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mean? Our goal has not changed. We maintain we do not think sad can

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play -- President Assad can play a future in Syria. We stand by what we

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said those years ago that he cannot remain. I go back to the point I

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made about Vladimir Putin and he right now appears to be acting,

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rather than reacting, in a host of international arenas we are talking

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about. Vladimir Putin sent in bombers big-time. Look at the data.

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Since the Russians started their intervention in Syria, serious

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intervention, US bombing raids in Syria have fallen in the bar as the

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Russian military action in Syria has exponentially risen. It does look

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like Putin is calling the shots. Absolutely not. You see Russia

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reacting in a way that is quite predictable. They have been trying

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to prop up residence Assad for some time. Publicly privately we have

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been encouraging them to stop. What you see right now is not leadership.

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It is a mistake for any of us to think it is leadership, coming in

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and dropping bombs. On the positive side, Russia could be hugely helpful

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in two ways. They could be really helpful by helping to bring

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together, we have a meeting on Friday, they do, in Vienna, to bring

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a political solution. They are saying the right things. There is a

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military solution that is raspberry is not a military solution to what

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is happening in Syria. There is a political solution. They could be

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helpful to joining the coalition of countries and organisations we had

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built under the leadership of President Obama to destroy Isil.

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Messages are being sent from Washington and now not being heeded

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in Moscow. It comes back to the broad theme I put out at the

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beginning of this interview, where does America's standing in the world

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sit today? How did it compare when Obama took over in the White House?

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Would you not acknowledge that many people around the world look at, for

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example, a relationship between Obama and Putin today and they do

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wonder whether the United States is able to project power and its

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interest in the way it used to? Let's talk about the 55 nation

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coalition against Isil. That is American leadership. President Obama

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drew attention to the problem and that is leadership. Look at Russian

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aggression in Ukraine and the United States leadership with the UK and

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others in getting together to impose real costs and consequences. Has the

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US-led coalition allies in the sanctions programme against Russia,

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have they succeeded in rolling back the annexation of Crimea and

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removing Russian influence in eastern Ukraine? Yellow magnet let's

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look at what has happened in the Russian economy. -- Let's look at

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what happened. The economy went down from 2 trillion to 1.2. Everything

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you want to see as a country going up is going down and things like

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borrowing costs are going down. It is not working. That is not

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leadership. It is reaction from a position of weakness. John Kerry

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talks to Foreign Minister said gay lover of a lot there will be a

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chance for Russia to do it has been doing. -- Sergei Lavrov. We have

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seen terrible images of the refugee crisis. There is another arena over

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which the United States is trying to project power and that is the South

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China Sea. One of the strategic choices of President Obama was to

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focus on Asia. Some called it the pivot to Asia. This is what a state

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owned newspaper is saying today about the US warships ploughing

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their way through a channel very close to these newly created islands

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in the South China Sea that China claims as its own. The US cannot

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finish the situation in Iraq or Afghanistan it is only to make noise

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against Russia. It has failed to achieve anything in Syria and cannot

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really take down Pyongyang. China has not provoked this crisis in the

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South China Sea but it is obvious that the US truly is only a paper

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tiger. Needless to say, I could not disagree more strongly with those

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statements. I wonder how alarmed you are that this feeling is spreading.

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Were just hosted the Chinese delegation in Washington. -- we have

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just hosted. We have areas of real disagreement. What you saw, and it

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comes to without getting into military details of how the Navy

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works, every single year, as a matter of routine, our Navy goes

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around the world in international waters, which that was, to keep open

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the free flow of navigation. That is a core principle and one of the

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major functions of our Navy and other people's navies to go and do

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that. We should not take it for granted. The United States benefits

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and the whole world economy benefits from keeping those lines open. Our

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position has not changed. We do not weigh in to territorial disputes.

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What we do weigh in on is, we cannot do this through coercion. There is

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an international law that these things can be resolved peacefully

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and not through coercion. We have talked about US strategy with regard

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to rivals, let's talk about allies. Use it here in London as one of the

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most senior diplomats on top of America's relationships with allies

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in Europe. When you look at the European Union today, we have had

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disarray over the years then and now we have disarray over the massive

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migration challenge that faces the European Union. Do you, as a senior

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American diplomat, worry about the ability of Europe to respond to

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today's challenges? With specific reference to the migrant crisis kite

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you look at those images and you think first of the families in

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crisis. Then you think about communities and friends in Europe

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receiving them by the thousands and thousands and thousands. My first

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reaction is empathy for what the refugees are going through and what

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these municipalities are going through. What the leaders of these

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organisations are trying to do to make sense of it and deal with the

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humanitarian crisis. Do you think the United States needs to do more

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as well? President Obama has been clear, as has John Kerry. We have

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done a lot historically and we have to do more and are doing more. The

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British government is not even from taking refugees inside your about

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once to focus on camps in the region. It has committed to 20,000

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refugees by 2020. What is the number the United States will commit to

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take? We have opted to 10000 and working with Congress to get the

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number increased for the following year. That is not many people, is

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it? We would like to do more and we are doing more. Absolutely. If you

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look back to 1980, the United States through the United Nations refugee

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system has taken 4 million refugees, more than any other country in the

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world. We will stand up to any country and generously welcomed

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refugees. What we are seeing is not the normal, annual flow of refugees.

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It is draining the systems of all of these places. We are doing more to

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react to that. And we are trying to get to the root cause. Not everyone

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is coming from Syria. Look what is happening in Syria! That is the

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fault of Assad. Half the country is displaced. If you think at Lebanon,

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Turkey, what they are going through, what people" are going through... We

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need a political solution to end the conflict. We have heard about

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meetings that will happen in Vienna on Friday with stakeholders, who

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care about that, differing opinions within that group, to be sure. But

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to try to get to a political solution. That is what is going to

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bring stability to the people of Syria, so that most of them want to

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move home. As Europe and the United States wrestles with Syria, there

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are other things you need to be aware of. There is to be, by the end

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of 2017, a referendum here in the UK, on whether to walk away from the

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European Union. Let me quote to you words of Philip Gordon, former

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Assistant Secretary of State. He came to London in 2012 or 2013 and

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he said, British membership of the European Union is in the American

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interest. Do those words still stand? Yes. Phil Gordon said it back

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then. President Obama has said it more recently than that. That

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decision is up to you, the British people. You say, you know what,

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Britain is staying in the European Union and that is a call American

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interest. I wanted to start by saying, it is up to you and we care.

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When Phil Gordon gets asked President Obama gets asked or I get

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asked, we say the same thing. We feel like we had to say what we

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feel. The United Kingdom makes every organisation it is part of better

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and stronger. We know that first-hand, the United Nations

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Security Council and Nato, to pick two important groups we are all part

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of. We happened to sit together because of an accident of alphabet

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in those considerations. It is not an accident we see eye to eye with

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the British on so many issues. I use the word ambassador at Pfizer delay.

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ambassador. -- advisedly. This is a ambassador. -- advisedly. This is a

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sensitive political issue in the United Kingdom. What right do you,

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as a senior American official, to wade into the debate? I have said it

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is up to you all to decide your relationship in Europe. Then you

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say, what do you think? From our perspective, Europe is the first

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place we turn. We see eye to eye with the UK on the major issues of

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the day, of the threats we face and the opportunities we have for things

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like trade. We see IT light on these things. We would love a strong UK in

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a strong EU. It would be good for us. We are telling you what is good

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for America. We are clear and simple about that. It is interesting that

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you say, we see IT light of that you would not see eye to eye with

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Britain if, as is possible, Jeremy Corbyn, a long-time anti-US foreign

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policy protester, if he were to become next Prime Minister of Great

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Britain, how worried are you? You pointed out what the role of a

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diplomat is to be, it is not about wading into domestic politics. I

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will say, without reference to any particular leaders, we have a long

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tradition of people who have had this particular job of engaging with

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the major political parties, whether they are in power or add of power. I

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am intrigued. As you spoken to Jeremy Corbyn? It was at the state

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dinner for president Xi. We got a chance to say hello. He is a senior

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member of the campaign for nuclear disarmament. He has been on every

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anti-US foreign policy protest for 40 years. You may want me to dive

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into domestic politics. I am going to disappoint you, I am not going to

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do it. You have said in the past, what is important that the UK in the

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US, we have the same world-view. this goes through democratic,

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Republican, Labour, Conservative, all different configurations over 70

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years. Churchill coined the phrase, special relationship. It is not just

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Gutmann officials, it is business relationships, student links,

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cultural links, that is what makes the relationship so special. Yes, we

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do. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, ambassador. Thank you for

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having me. If you are watching yesterday you

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will know it is a mild outlook. As we head into November many of us

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will be heading towards the central heating switch, to turn it

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