Meat Loaf, Musician and Actor HARDtalk


Meat Loaf, Musician and Actor

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Welcome to HARDtalk.

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I'm Stephen Sackur.

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My guest today is a rock'n'roll legend who broke the rules

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of the music business.

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He was never cool, never a pin-up, but his

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songs and his performances have always been much larger-than-life.

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Meat Loaf shot to fame four decades ago with an album, Bat Out

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of Hell, which became one of the biggest sellers of all time.

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Since then his career in music and in acting has been a dizzying

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mix of highs and lows.

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How close did he get to self-destruction?

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Meat loaf, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Meat Loaf, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Well, thank you.

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And it's a pleasure to be here.

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It's a pleasure to have you here.

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I want to start by considering the span of your career.

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You've been in the music business, and acting as

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well, for pretty much 50 years.

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Yeah, this coming February - I actually

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know the date, February 17th, which is also my

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assistant's birthday - I will have been in show

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business for a 50 years.

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You call show business and you have been putting on one

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heck of a show.

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And the way you do things, whether it is stage acting

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or performing the music, it is all in.

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I mean, you give it everything.

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I'm just wondering whether you ever reached a point where you thought,

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I've had enough of this, I've given off?

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No.

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And I'll explain to you why.

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Because I'm always learning.

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I'm always studying.

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So I will arrive, let's say at a show,

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four or five hours before the show, because the show before I didn't

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listen to myself sing.

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I'm the only singer I know that doesn't

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listen to himself sing.

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That's a mistake sometimes!

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But I listen to what I did.

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But also, every song on that show is a different character.

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So what happens is, I'm listening back to the song, I'm starting to

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manoeuvre myself into the different characters.

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So you mean, you don't sing as yourself?

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It's a more theatrical thing.

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You're singing parts.

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You see, I consider it theatrical.

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I consider it to be the truth.

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When you go to theatre and you see great actors in a play,

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you almost float.

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It's almost a floating experience, because they're not acting.

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They're telling you the truth in the moment.

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That's what I do in everything that I do.

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You're talking to Meat Loaf.

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But if you were to see me in a show, every song is

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a different character.

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And we don't stop.

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It's like a symphony. It just keeps going.

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You're in character?

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Well, I switch them.

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It's one heck of a performance.

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You are a performer.

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I want to take you back and talk through your career a little bit.

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To be blunt about it, at school you were an overweight kid

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who got teased, who had a tough time.

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Who had tough times at home as well with parents struggled.

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Your mum died young.

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How is it you turned yourself from a small-town kid with

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problems, to this big-time performer?

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I don't look at myself as a big-time performer.

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I don't view myself in that vision.

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I refuse to allow them, in any advertising for

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an album for a concert or anything, to use the words icon, legend, star,

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rock star.

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I am - to me I'm just another person, and I have a job.

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But I want to get this point about confidence

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and being an extrovert.

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If you're a kid who is finding life pretty tough aged ten, 12, how do

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12, how do you get the confidence to become the performer that

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you were by the age of 20?

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Well, there are so many people in life that have

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tough times in their lives. An alcoholic father...

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Which you did.

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..who tried to kill me with a butcher knife.

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A mother who died of cancer. And that almost destroyed me.

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I mean, it took me ten years to get over that.

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But I can't blame...

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Like on my father's side, you get too many people in the world

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that act up and do things and they go, "Well,

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my father did this..."

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I don't live that way. I love my father.

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I have forgiven my father. God bless him.

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You know? And my mother.

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And I'm going to cry.

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Because I don't do that.

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No sense of blame in you?

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No, you can't.

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You just took responsibility for your own life.

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I take responsibility for my life and my life only.

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So let's get to that...

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You were raised in Texas, but went to New York and you

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made it into Hair, and I think in Los Angeles you got a part in the

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musical. Within a pretty short time

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you were in the rock 'n' roll business as well.

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Yeah, I don't know how I got there!

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What would you define as your biggest break?

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Well, there are two of them.

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One was getting involved with Joseph Papp at

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the Public Theatre.

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He had the nerve, and I'll give him credit, to put me

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into two Shakespeares in the Park.

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And I had never read Shakespeare.

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I have now. I made a point.

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When I was on tour I read every Shakespeare

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play on days off.

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And the other is Lou Adler from the Rocky Horror Show.

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Which did bring you quite a lot of fame.

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Yeah.

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I thought you were going to say something else.

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I thought you might say your biggest turning point was meeting

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Jim Steinman.

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Well, that's an obvious one.

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I mean, to me that is obvious.

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But I met Steinman at Joe papp.

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I auditioned for Steinman.

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For people who don't know the Meat Loaf story so

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well, Jim Steinman is your collaborator, the guy who's written

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songs with you going back.

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He's been one of my best friends for 46 years.

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I love him dearly.

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And I'm going to put in a little plug real quick for him.

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He's got a musical that he has dreamt of for over 50 years, and it

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is finally being done.

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And it's opening in Manchester in February.

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And the West End in April.

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And that is the musical of the album that

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defines you to a certain extent.

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Bat Out of Hell.

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Yeah.

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I keep seeing things about his play, and it just keeps talking about me.

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And I'm going, "No, stop talking about me,

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talk about Jim!"

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I'm going to talk to you about Jim quite a lot,

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because your life and his have been intertwined, and not always in a

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good way.

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But before we get to that, let us watch a clip,

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to remind everybody of the sound of Meat Loaf

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and Bat Out of Hell.

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Take a look at this.

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# Like a bat out of hell

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# I'll be gone when the morning comes

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# But when the night is over, like a bat out of hell

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# I'll be gone, gone, gone.

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# Like a bat out of hell I'll be gone when the morning comes

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# When the day is done and the sun goes down

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# And the moon is shining through...#

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Now I have to say, personally I never tire of listening to that

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because I was a teenage schoolboy when that came out.

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And I remember the whole school listening to that album.

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Well, that meant you were later on, because when that

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album came out in October of 1977, everybody hated it.

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We were turned down by everybody, every record

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company, four times.

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And if it wasn't for a Little Steven of the E

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Street Band, who plays with Bruce, that record would have never come

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out.

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There was a gentleman who used to be head of A at Epic, who

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started his own label, and Little Steven said

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to him that at the beginning was the best 20 seconds in rock

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'n' roll history.

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And so, Steve Popovich believed everything Little Steven told him.

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And Steve Popovich eventually signed you, and the record became a massive

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a massive worldwide hit.

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He said this.

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He said, "I was reluctant for so long because Meat

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Loaf was too fat, too ugly, his hair was too long

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and his voice was too operatic."

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Why did people get it so wrong?

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It seems so superficial.

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Well, they're not wrong.

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I weighed about 310 pounds!

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I wasn't ugly.

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I disagree with him on that.

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And I am - my voice is naturally operatic.

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I'm a heldentenor.

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When I did my first Shakespeare with Joe Papp, Shakespeare

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had written a song.

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Of course we didn't have the music because we did

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not know what music he wrote, so they hired David Shire

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to write the music.

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When I sang it one night, I had opera patrons come backstage and

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offer me $60,000 a year for five years, $300,000, to study and make

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my debut at the Met.

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There are very few heldentenors in the world.

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You could have been America's Pavarotti?

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Well, I could have been!

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The problem was, it was very tempting, but like

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everything I've ever done, I had to research it.

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And I found out unless you're Pavarotti, unless you're

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Placido Domingo, the conductor is in control of everything.

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And I am too much of a rebel, to rebellious to

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-- And I am too much of a rebel, too rebellious to let some conductor

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tell me how to do something.

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And I would have wound up in prison for life.

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I would have murdered him.

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Let's talk about rebellion.

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And your innate desire to get close to the edge of life.

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After Bat Out of Hell came out, it was a

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slow burn maybe at the beginning, but it sold in the end big-time,

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over 40 million records.

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It is in the top five bestselling records of

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all time.

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By '78, you are a massive star because of the album

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and you are touring the world, and you lose it.

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I hated being a star.

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That is why I lost it.

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I lost it partly because I knew what Jim and I had.

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Because we had played little supper clubs in New York, 25, 200 people,

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and people would go crazy.

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I mean, not just applaud politely - I mean, crazy.

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But what I'm getting at isn't so much the reaction of the fans,

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which was fantastic, I'm talking about your reaction.

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There was drugs, there was booze, there was bad behaviour.

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No.

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No, there wasn't.

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There wasn't.

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You called herself a monster at one point.

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You talked about throwing mic stands not just at your bandmates,

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but also at the audience.

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No, that was a character.

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In Paradise at the end, I threw a mic stand -

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the guy at the end of Paradise was a monster.

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I threw mic stand towards Carla.

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I threw a mic stand towards Carla, but I never hit her.

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I wasn't going to end like that.

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If I had wanted to hit her, I would have hit her.

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You see, that's media.

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I've always been very disciplined, because I started off...

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But what about the cocaine?

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Oh, that was minor.

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Really?

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Bob Gillick, who was playing with you in the band,

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said, "The problem with Meat Loaf was the road near the end

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was killing him.

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It did.

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But it wasn't because of cocaine.

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It was because I was so bound and determined to make this record

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happen, that we would do five or six shows a week.

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So I was working nonstop to make this record happen.

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And you also pushed yourself beyond your physical limits.

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There are famous pictures of you lying backstage after a show

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with an oxygen mask.

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Well, I had asthma.

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I know.

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But Jim Steinman said, after the 78 tour, "He had

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lost his voice, he was pretty much losing his mind."

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I had a nervous breakdown.

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I was at a psychologist for about ten months,

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five days a week.

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Why?

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Was there is self-destructive element within you?

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No.

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The whole thing with the psychologist was,

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I said to the psychologist - he said, "Why are you here?"

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I said, "Because people are calling me a star and I can't

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deal with that."

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That is very interesting.

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Again it seems to me we cannot discuss your career,

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and we will go through it if we have time, but we cannot discuss it

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without coming back to the relationship with Jim

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Steinman.

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He was writing the songs, certainly on Bat Out of Hell.

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You did some more collaboration with him, but often times after that

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you did your own albums as well.

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But the truth is, if one looks at it, your albums

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without Jim Steinman were never as successful,

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and most folks would say, never as good as the work you've

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done with Jim Steinman.

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Yeah, they probably would.

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But believe me, I wouldn't have put it out if I hadn't have loved it.

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I mean, I did a duet with Roger Daltrey on Bad Attitude.

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But Jimmy is one of the greatest writers in history.

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I mean, he is in the category of Richard Wagner.

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He is in that category.

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He is an old soul.

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Forgive me for playing the pop psychologist,

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but here is a theory.

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You struggled with the stardom and all of the focus on you,

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because from the very beginning Meat Loaf,

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the name, had been you, and the music seemed to be you,

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when in fact Jim Steinman was an absolutely crucial

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collaborator and he didn't get the credit.

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So that made the spotlight on you all the greater,

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and at the same time Jim Steinman has been very frank and said,

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you know, "I wanted more recognition because I was there,

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but my name was never attached."

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Absolutely.

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You guys fell out over that.

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No, we didn't.

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We never had an argument.

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We didn't really fall out.

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You sued each other.

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He sued you.

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No.

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That's...

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You see, that's what happens when record companies and managers

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start to sue each other - they don't sue each other,

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they have to put our names to it.

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And then they say, "Don't talk to each other."

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But Jim Steinman, I mean, he must have been aware

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that the legal suit his lawyers lodged against you, bankrupted

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you for a while.

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You had to declare bankruptcy.

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Year, but not because I couldn't pay the MasterCard or I couldn't

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pay my groceries or do any of that.

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It became because we were in Chapter 11 which allows you to be...

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To protect your assets while you're trying to...

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Yeah.

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And it wasn't because...

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You get all the stories of all these rock stars spending their money

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and all this.

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Well, I never did that.

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Many of them snort it away or drink it away.

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I don't...

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I don't like alcohol.

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I throw up at the smell of champagne.

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The only thing that I ever touch is tequila.

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And I don't sit home and drink tequila.

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I never drink tequila at home.

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I don't drink anything at home.

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I don't even drink soda pop.

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I suppose what's interesting, because, you know, your partnership

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with Steinman is one of the great creative partnerships in music.

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It didn't work for a while, and then you came back in 93 to make

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the follow-up to Bat Out of Hell.

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Two.

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Which we started in 87.

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That's right.

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That sold really well.

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Did fantastic.

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Then you tried to do Bat Out of Hell 3 without him and that

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didn't really work.

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Well, you see, that was a problem.

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That was managers fighting.

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And when Jimmy and I got together to do this record...

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Which brings us to the present day, because now you've got a new record

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out, which is some old songs and some new songs, another

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collaboration between you and Steinman.

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Well, I told him things that had happened about Bat Out of Hell 3.

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There was so much he didn't know.

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So you are totally reconciled with him now?

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Jim and I have never had an argument.

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Let us come, in that spirit, Jim and you working together,

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and listen to one of the tracks on the new album.

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# We always seem so much braver than we ever are #.

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That is you looking rather imperious.

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Again, too much make-up!

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I suppose what I'm interested in is, we talked about how you gave

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everything to the music from the very beginning.

0:20:350:20:39

I gave everything to everything.

0:20:390:20:41

Do you still...

0:20:410:20:42

Your voice has mellowed.

0:20:420:20:44

Rolling Stone said there is a much gentler vibe to the new album,

0:20:440:20:49

Braver Than We Are.

0:20:490:20:53

Have you dialled back or not?

0:20:530:20:55

That was a conscious...

0:20:550:20:57

Yes.

0:20:570:20:58

Jimmy and I both discussed this.

0:20:580:21:00

We did not want to recreate Bat Out of Hell or Bat Out of Hell 2.

0:21:000:21:09

I said, how about Who Needs the Young?

0:21:090:21:12

And that is the first song that Jimmy ever wrote as a songwriter.

0:21:120:21:17

And he was 19 years old.

0:21:170:21:23

It's interesting, because it's all about ageing in the voice

0:21:230:21:26

of a man who is considering what it means to get older.

0:21:260:21:29

Yeah, but I sang it as a 19-year-old.

0:21:290:21:31

Let's get to that, what it means to get older.

0:21:310:21:34

We all have to consider it.

0:21:340:21:39

Well, getting old is not for wussies.

0:21:390:21:41

That's what I say.

0:21:410:21:42

I get you.

0:21:420:21:45

Over the years, coming back to the physicality

0:21:450:21:48

of your performances, you have fallen off stages,

0:21:480:21:50

you have done your knee in, and back in 1978, you collapsed

0:21:500:21:53

onstage, you have had heart conditions, asthma...

0:21:530:21:59

I have had 18 concussions.

0:21:590:22:01

I've fallen three storeys off a balcony.

0:22:010:22:04

I've been in planes where landing gears didn't come down.

0:22:040:22:08

I'm a cat with 49 lives.

0:22:080:22:12

And you've got a bad back, which is restricting your

0:22:120:22:15

movement right now.

0:22:150:22:16

Yeah, which I can't work with, it's driving me crazy.

0:22:160:22:18

You've got a plan to tour Europe.

0:22:180:22:21

You said you weren't going to tour so much any more,

0:22:210:22:24

but you've got a plan to tour Europe with the new album.

0:22:240:22:28

How can you do it having battered your body to the degree

0:22:280:22:31

to which you have?

0:22:310:22:32

Well, I get my back fixed, and when I do...

0:22:320:22:35

I had knee replacement that never healed.

0:22:350:22:36

So I have three months of therapy.

0:22:370:22:40

I'm ready to go for that.

0:22:400:22:41

Do you really want to tour, with all of the pressures that

0:22:410:22:45

come with that?

0:22:450:22:45

I don't want to travel and I don't want to pack.

0:22:450:22:49

But I want to do the shows.

0:22:490:22:51

That means you've got to travel and you've got to pack!

0:22:510:22:54

I don't want to do those two.

0:22:540:22:56

So two out of three ain't bad!

0:22:560:22:58

I think I've heard that before.

0:22:580:23:00

Now look, I don't want to end on a morbid note, but I think

0:23:000:23:05

it is rather wonderful thing, because you are committed

0:23:050:23:07

to continuing performing, you said, "I actually don't mind

0:23:070:23:09

if I die onstage."

0:23:090:23:12

I don't.

0:23:120:23:15

I either want to die in my sleep or die onstage.

0:23:150:23:20

Is it true that you've told your bandmates -

0:23:200:23:22

because you do have the asthma and you do have a history -

0:23:220:23:28

have you told your bandmates that if you keel over and actually die

0:23:280:23:32

onstage, they have to continue playing?

0:23:320:23:33

Yeah.

0:23:330:23:35

They're going to play When the Saints Go Marching In.

0:23:350:23:38

And then they're all going to get up, and if it's in America,

0:23:380:23:41

the audience will sing the song Take Me Out to the Ball Game.

0:23:410:23:49

Which I just found out was written in 1907.

0:23:490:23:52

And you want this to happen even though your dead body

0:23:520:23:55

is being carried off the stage?

0:23:550:23:57

Well, I want it to stay there unless it's too morbid.

0:23:570:24:00

If it's too morbid, take it off!

0:24:000:24:02

All I can say is, God willing that is not going to happen.

0:24:020:24:07

No, probably not.

0:24:070:24:09

Probably not.

0:24:090:24:12

Meat Loaf, it's been a pleasure to have you on HARDtalk.

0:24:120:24:15

Thank you.

0:24:150:24:16

Thank you.

0:24:160:24:16

Thank you very much.

0:24:160:24:20

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