Nigel Farage - Former Leader of the UK Independence Party HARDtalk

Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

For the foreseeable future, British politics is going to be

dominated by one issue - Brexit.

What will our future relationship with the EU look like?

How will it affect Britain's political and economic future?

Well, my guest today is Nigel Farage, the newly-retired

leader of the UK Independence Party.

It seems odd that the politician who arguably did most to push

Britain to the exit door has opted out of frontline politics before any

Brexit deal is done.

So why has Nigel Farage done a runner?

Nigel Farage, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

You stood down as Ukip leader just a few days after your triumph,

the Brexit victory in the referendum.

You said, my political ambition has been achieved.

But it hasn't, has it?

You don't know what Brexit is going to be like.

We have won the war, we now have to win the peace.

And I get that.

Don't forget, that I'm staying on as leader of the group

in the European Parliament, you know, I will see through that

process once Article 50 finally gets declared.

So I'm still going to be involved.

You very rarely go to the European Parliament,

so that's not much of a pulpit.

You've abandoned your main pulpit.

You were leader of Ukip, Ukip, it has to be said,

scored a famous victory with this Brexit vote.

But all of the detail, all of the really important stuff

of what Brexit will look like, is still to be debated

and you have walked away.

I wasn't going to be asked to be directly involved

in the government negotiations.

I will, as a former leader of Ukip in the United Kingdom,

commentate on what the government are doing, encourage

where it is going well, chide a bit if I don't think

it is going well, I don't need to be leader of Ukip to do that.

What I've stepped back from is leading a domestic political

party, heading it into the next set of elections.

You know, endless by-elections, county council elections,

and all of those things.

You know, I've been doing this quite a long time.

I am well aware of that, you and I have been talking

for quite a long time!

But the cynic would say, and certainly those critical

of your Brexit views would say, you know, you smashed up the shop

and now you refuse to engage in the repair process.

You could argue it's never over in politics, couldn't you?

You and I can sit here in two and half years time and we've got

Brexit, but there's an opposition party who wants to challenge it

at the next general election.

It's never over, in a sense, in politics.

But this is what I do think.

I do think we will leave the European Union, the question

is on what terms.

You see, the new leader of your party, Diane James,

she says, and this is a direct quote, "The Tory party simply cannot

be trusted with true Brexit".

Do you agree?

If you do agree, again, it just seems odd that

you would vacate the stage when the people in charge

cannot be trusted.

However well I do as party leader in county council elections,

it doesn't really affect that very much, does it?

Whatever I do in a by-election in Witney or whatever it may be,

doesn't really affect that very much.

Well, of course it does.

It affects it in the same way, that because of the surge of support

for you and your party in the last few years, David Cameron

was effectively forced to take the decision to have a referendum,

so you are important.

You seem to be denying your own importance.

I am not running away.

I'm still there.

I still exist.

I'm still part of Ukip, I will support the new leader.

She is probably going to be a bit worried then, if you're saying

I am just going to be as important as ever.

I mean, you're not the leader any more, you can't be leader and not

leader at the same time.

In terms of commentary, in terms of engaging in debate,

I'm going to be there as I was before.

What I won't be doing is dealing with party politics.

Let's now focus on what Diane James said about the Tory party,

the Tory leadership not to be trusted.

Article 50, that is the formal way in which the negotiating process

between Britain and the European Union is triggered.

It hasn't been triggered, but it seems now from Theresa May's

words that it won't be triggered until 2017 and many of those around

this decision seem to believe it may not be taken until late 2017.

Do you think that's acceptable?

That would be a disaster.

That would be a disaster, because in terms of,

once Article 50 is triggered, in terms of our negotiations,

one of the biggest opportunities are the elections taking place,

the presidential elections in France in the spring of next year

and of course in Germany we've got the general election happening

in October of next year.

And one of the big things that British negotiators need to do

is they need to go and meet every German car manufacturer,

every French wine grower, that may be pushing it a bit,

but the big French wine producers.

Because ultimately, a nontariff free deal,

which for us, by the way, doesn't sound very attractive,

but it is better than where we are now, but a nontariff free

deal actually affects German workers and French workers far more

adversely potentially than it does us.

We need to be making these arguments and making this part

of the German general election.

Just be clear, when you talk about a nontariff free deal,

you're saying that you believe it is possible to get a deal

which involves tarrif-free access to the single market

while at the same time completely walking away from the principle

of the free movement of labour?

Well, there are 48 other countries in the world that have just that.

This is the point, isn't it, we are living in a world

where all over the world we have seen a mushrooming of free trade

agreements between countries, in every continent on the planet.

And free trade agreements do not virtually ever include the free

movement of people.

The reason that the EU initially will play hardball is

because they are fearful that if they were seen to give this

to the United Kingdom, that half the other countries

of the European Union would want the same thing too.

That is a very real fear which is why everybody

from Juncker to Merkel, to Tusk, all of them

are saying your vision of what might be achieved is completely,

utterly unrealistic, it is not going to happen.

At what point will you start to believe their words?

As a starting point for negotiations, you would be

surprised if they said any different.

I have a feeling they've got problems about to subsume them that

are rather bigger than Brexit negotiations.

I think that frankly, the bust up between the Eastern European

countries and Germany effectively, over Angela Merkel saying last year

as many people as want to come can.

And when they did come, Germany then says through

the European Commission, you must take quotas,

numbers of people.

And I don't see that changing at all.

My point is this.

Europe is beset by problems, they can start off if they want

being tough with the United Kingdom, but ultimately their electorates,

you know, the German car workers union, the French wine producers,

want a sensible deal with the UK.

But my instinct is that if you want to find problems,

you're better off looking much closer to home.

You're going to find problems when you look at what Theresa May

and perhaps Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson actually do over the next

few months in terms of their relationship with Europe.

Theresa May has already made it clear she is not interested in some

of the ideas you put forward during the Brexit campaign.

I know, yeah.

I mean, you talked about the points system to control future migration.

Well, to be fair, to be fair to the Prime Minister,

there are other ways of doing it.

But given her record as Home Secretary, yes,

I'm slightly nervous.

You said just a few days ago

you feared backsliding from Theresa May.

So you don't trust Theresa May, basically, if she is a backslider,

you clearly don't trust her.

You know, she started off saying wonderful things.

She wasn't the Prime Minister I would have chosen, but it all looked

really good for the first few weeks.

And the first wobble that I saw was at the G20 when she stood

beneath the flags and said, people had voted for some degree

of control over immigration.

Well, no, we didn't.

We voted for control.

Right, so you're worried about Theresa May, you must be

worried about Boris Johnson because he was perhaps the most

high-profile leader of the...

He was very important.

He was very important.

This is what he said after the Brexit result.

He said, the British people will still be able to go and work

in the EU, to live, to travel, to study, to buy homes,

to settle down.

There will continue to be free trade and access to the single market.

I mean, Boris seemed to be saying don't worry,

people, nothing much is going to change at all.

Ultimately there is one certainty from Brexit, total certainty.

That we have voted to take back control of our country.

We've voted to make all these big decisions.

But nobody knows what that means.

My point to you is...

It is very simple, actually.

Parliament makes our laws, our own courts judge them.

End of.

That is what we voted for.

That is the ultimate test of sovereignty.

It is very interesting you say Parliament makes the laws.

I mean, David Davis has made it plain that Parliament won't be

consulted through this negotiating process.

He says it's far too sensitive and confidential and he said

to a committee just the other day, I may not be able to tell

you everything even in private hearings.

So the government is going to do this on its own.

It's not going to listen to Nigel Farage.

They have a mandate to do that.

They have a mandate to do that, of course they do.

But I would also add this.

There wasn't much confusion in terms of what was being said

during the Brexit campaign.

Everybody from the figures on the right of politics,

and let's say for example, Boris Johnson and

Michael Gove, we had...

Just in parentheses, do you believe that Boris Johnson

really, in his heart, is committed to Brexit in the way

you are, or for him was it a vehicle for personal, physical ambition?

Oh, I think he believed in it.

I think it may have taken him a long time to make his mind up.

But he had gone from being a Eurosceptic journalist

in Brussels back in the 1990s, to appearing to support the project.

I think in the end he did make his mind up and I

think it was genuine.

But all of us, Ukip, Conservative, Labour,

all of us that argued for Brexit made it clear.

We want to make our own laws in our own country,

control our own borders, and crucially, not be members

of the single market.

No confusion about that in terms of people that voted for Brexit.

Well, you say no confusion and you are very clear

in your own mind.

Does it stick in your throat that during the campaign before June 23rd

and clearly since June 23rd, people like Theresa May

and David Davis steadfastly refuse to consult you?

Oh, they won't do.

Why do you think that is?

Look, they hate me, I have cost them a Prime Minister,

Chancellor, a European Commissioner.

Why would Theresa May hate you, you have got her into number ten?

Because it's a psychological thing.

They see me as having wounded the tribe, and that's a crime that

can never be forgiven.

I couldn't care less about that.

I knew the day after Brexit that they were not going to involve

me in any of their teams or any of their negotiations.

I got that, I understood that.

I've taken the view that I can do a lot from the European Parliament

and a lot, actually probably more, on the European question,

not being leader of a domestic political party which means

being on the road the whole time, supporting election campaigns

up-and-down the country.

So I know exactly where I am with this.

I'm happy with that.

I am worried about the government, I am worried about...

And let's just get to a yes, no thing.

You don't trust this government.

I was told years ago, never trust the Tories,

and that thought hasn't gone away.

So let me just expand on that thought and ask you,

you know, if you see that Brexit isn't going to be delivered by 2020

for example, what do you do then?

That's a perfectly fair question.

To me, Brexit is easy.

We have back British passports, we have control of our fishing

waters and our companies are not subject to EU law

through the single market.

They are my three tests, if you like, of what Brexit

means by 2020.

I hope I'm wrong, I hope they deliver all of these things.

Well, let's get to my question.

What do you do if it isn't delivered by 2020?

Well, then I couldn't walk away, could I?

I wouldn't be able...

This is another Farage semiretirement?

No, I hope I never stand for election again.

Ever, anywhere.

I hope I don't need to.

I did not come into this for a career.

I came into this for a cause, for a crusade.

Let's if we may just cast our minds back for a brief moment

to the campaign itself.

Are you ready now to express regret for some of the things including,

frankly, falsehoods, that were peddled by the Leave

campaign during the campaign?

We've had 45 years of lies from those supporting the European

project, telling us it was a common market, don't worry your little

heads, it'll never be political.

And they go online.

The very day the European...

I wasn't asking about their campaign, I was asking about yours.

Do you regret the lies that were told on your side?

On the very day the European constitution was produced

by Giscard, the House of Commons was told by the Europe Minister

it was a mere tidying up exercise.

Giscard said it was for a superstate.

So we've had to put up with an endless diet of lies.

Now, as far as the Leave campaign was concerned,

there was one mistake that was made.

What was that?

There was a factual mistake.

What was that?

That was the 350 million.

And that was a factual mistake.

It was on the poster, on the battle bus.

A very small factual mistake.

The message to the people, if you vote Brexit and get Brexit,

?350 million a week will go to the NHS.

And that is a complete falsehood.

And if you vote Brexit, according to the Chancellor,

each family will lose 4500 quid a year.

Why redirect my question with a pop at the opposition?

Why not now, because it's over, why not acknowledge some things

were said that were false, that were lies, and you regret it?

I think that was the only fundamental mistake that was made.

In terms of a fact.

A fundamental mistake, because you were cynical,

because you would say almost anything to win?

It wasn't my figure and I argued very strongly against it.

I sat talking to Michael Gove as I'm talking to you now,

saying, drop it, it's an error, it does not work.

Because the net figure is 220 million a week and no one

could argue with that.

Now actually, did it being 350 as opposed to 220,

shift one single vote?

I doubt it.

But it did leave the establishment with a stick to beat us.

Well, they have other sticks too.

That poster that you revealed, the breaking point.

Was that a lie or was it a factual picture?

Well, I'm not discussing whether the picture itself

was factual or not.

I'm discussing the message it sent to the people of Britain.

There you were with your poster, which pictured all these people

queueing at one of the border crossings into Europe's eastern

flank, they were Syrians, Afghans probably, and Somalis.

They weren't there queueing.

They were getting across borders because fences were going up.

It was part of the Merkel madness.

They were not immigrants from Europe coming into the United Kingdom.

And that was the clear implication of that poster.

And that's why the poster said the EU has failed us all.

Look, let me explain something about that

to you, OK?

That morning, and that by the way was the first of a series of posters

we were running for the last week of the campaign.

That was the only one that was about the broader European

question rather than the UK.

That morning, that poster appeared in full-page national ads

in a handful of British newspapers.

It had been released at 10pm the night before via the internet.

It was out everywhere.

And do you know something?

There was very little criticism or condemnation of it.

Very little.

Your own MP, the one MP you got in Westminster,

said he was deeply uncomfortable.

He said nothing.

He said he was deeply uncomfortable.

You've got to listen to me and understand what I'm telling you.

What happened in this referendum campaign,

there was barely a note of criticism about that poster.

But when your own MP says he is deeply...

He said nothing.

What do you mean, he said nothing?

Will you listen to me about the timings of this?

There was very little criticism of that poster and then,

that afternoon, Jo Cox was murdered on a Yorkshire

Street.

OK?

Yes, the Labour MP.

An horrendous event.

And the Remain campaign decided they would conflate that poster

with her killing and that is when all the criticism started.

Had that awful murder not happened, you wouldn't even be asking me.

The bottom line is your own MP reviled from that poster

and its message.

Everybody ran for the hills because they're all cowards

and they didn't want to take any stick.

Your own MP is a coward?

Well, he's not Ukip.

He doesn't believe we should even discuss the immigration issue.

He never has done, all right?

That is a separate issue.

My head is spinning.

You are now telling me that even your own single elected MP

is a coward?

I didn't say that.

I said he's not Ukip.

You said they're all cowards, they ran for the hills.

Well, they all did, they all ran for the hills.

I mean, goodness me, the Vote Leave campaign had put out

some very aggressive posters but you've got to understand

the context of what happened.

The Remain side deliberately tried to use that horrible murder.

I'm sure you know this much better than me because it

involved you personally.

40,000 people signed a petition describing it as incitement

to racial hatred.

The Crown Prosecution Service said they will review the case.

Well, let them.

It's true, you can get as upset as you like,

it's a fact.

That picture shows you what happened when Mrs Merkel made this huge error

she made last year.

You yourself would barely have known of the existence of this had it not

been for that horrible murder.

And that's what happened.

So when I ask you whether there are things you regret,

you certainly are not interested in expressing any sort

of regret for that?

I regret the truth, I regret the ridiculous things that

Mrs Merkel has done to Europe.

I regret an endless series now of terrorist attacks that are taking

place in Europe.

As a direct result of irresponsible policy of letting people

into the Schengen area, wholesale, without any checks at all.

Let's talk about the state of Ukip, if we may.

You say you are still actively involved and as you say,

you're leading a group in the European Parliament as leader

of the Ukip delegation.

So you certainly haven't walked away entirely from the party.

But the party is in a big mess, isn't it?

I mean some of the party's most senior figures...

It's in a mess because it has one MP who doesn't agree with anything

the party stands for.

And that is a problem.

It's a problem because it is perceived to be a problem.

Does the fact that he doesn't agree with anything we do,

he condemns all our officials, he tried in the referendum to split

us down the middle, does that actually affect out

in the country, the branches?

No, not really.

It's a conversation, it's a media conversation.

Has it really damaged the grassroots of Ukip?

I would say it hasn't.

Some of the party's most senior strategists think,

including the woman Alexandra Phillips who worked

so closely with you, have joined the Tories.

Well, I think she was treated very badly by the party in Wales.

Let me tell you, there is one fundamental thing that has

changed in Ukip.

It was a grassroots party, it was an upwelling.

It has had a volunteer structure through a national executive that

runs it and makes the big decisions.

Those people I'm afraid have been very vulnerable to lobbying

by professional career politicians.

And that has not helped Ukip over the last 18 months.

But, you know, it's not just about people's careerism,

it's about ideas.

Alexandra Phillips, who worked so closely with you,

this is what she said the other day.

Ideologically, the Tories are doing the Ukip dance now.

If you look at our 2015 manifesto, Theresa May has announced it

all in the first months of being Prime Minister.

Grammar schools, fracking, Brexit means Brexit,

controlling immigration.

Yes, it all sounded very good in the first few weeks,

and now it's not sounding quite so good, is it?

Well, that's not what she says.

She says, what's the point of Ukip any more?

If the Tories are delivering what you wanted?

Well, will they deliver it?

You know, will they deliver it?

That's the point, isn't it?

That really is the key to all of this.

And I worry, you know, I mean the Hinkley Point deal,

a very good case in point.

We were very critical of a Hinkley Point deal done

with the Chinese over nuclear installations by George Osborne.

The Prime Minister gave us the impression in the first couple

of weeks she was going to veto it.

Now it's been accepted.

There are a lot of rumours flying around, I'm sure you are very aware

of them, you say you're still in Ukip, of course

you still are in Ukip but you've got a very good friend,

Arron Banks, who says he's prepared to spend millions of pounds creating

a new movement.

I think is going to call it the People's Movement

although he has probably not decided.

But he wants you to lead it.

Will you?

No, I'll help, I'll support, of course I will.

I think that grassroots campaigning has a role,

a big role.

I think what leave.eu did in the referendum by building up

a million online supporters was a really fascinating development

in British politics.

And we've seen it on the left, haven't we?

We've seen 38 Degrees, we've seen Momentum.

So I think what Mr Banks wants to do is a very sensible thing.

He also wants to internationalise this movement and he said that

you can be a figurehead across Europe and you're not even

stopping at Europe, you've just come back from the United States.

You were at the US convention, smiling broadly, watching

Donald Trump accept the nomination.

And since then you've actually appeared at a major campaign

rally with him.

Saying not for all the money in the world would you contemplate

voting for Hillary Clinton.

No.

Do you really, with all of his policies, you know,

banning Muslims from entering the country, building a great big

wall with Mexico, calling Mexicans rapists and criminals.

You really think Donald Trump would be good for America,

do you, is he your sort of politician?

Well we are building a big wall in Calais as we speak.

And George Bush built 600 miles of a wall with the Mexicans.

You know, he has said some things, of course he's said some things

I don't agree with.

Of course there are positions on social issues where any British

politician and any American politician, you know,

simply aren't going to meet.

But, you know, I went to tell the story of Brexit and the story

of Brexit is bigger than just the United Kingdom voting to leave

and what the negotiating process will be.

I think actually the story of Brexit is something that could completely

transform politics across the entire Western world.

Why, what is it about Brexit that could have

this international resonance?

It's very simple.

You know, when all is said and done, Brexit happened because about 2.5

million people who did not vote at the last election and who in many

cases had never voted in their lives, went to the polls.

And a clear majority of them did vote for Brexit.

That is what swung it.

And so the message that sends is that actually,

big politics and the big banks, the big businesses, don't always

have to win.

You know the sort of person that moans, it's hopeless,

I hate it, but I can't change it.

What Brexit shows is things can change.

And I think that what Trump is perhaps beginning to do

is to reach into some of that electorate.

That is Trump, and do you think also that Marine Le Pen in France,

that Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, maybe AFD,

Alternative for Germany in Germany, these are allies that you now

want to help, specifically help, to win power in their countries?

Is that going to be good for you?

I'm going to be a little bit cautious about, you know,

who exactly I support.

Marine Le Pen?

Geert Wilders?

Are those people you believe represent your values?

No, I've never worked directly with them.

I'm just asking you, do they represent your values?

Today?

Not in every way, no.

What is it about them then that is different from you?

I think you know, in the case of Mr Wilders, I think that...

Is it racism?

Xenophobia?

What is it?

On the one hand, Geert Wilders argues for freedom of speech,

which I get.

I understand that.

But then in the next sentence he says he wants to ban the Koran.

Well, there's a slight inconsistency going on there.

As far as Marine Le Pen is concerned, she has done good

things, she's done good things with the Front National.

From the days of her father and the things that it stood

for then, she has modernised the party, she has moved on.

I still think it's got a way to go.

And a final thought, because perhaps, well there is no

perhaps about it, the most important election coming up

is the US election.

You, to be clear about it, you believe it is best for the world

as well as the United States, for Donald Trump to win?

I don't want Hillary to win because...

Well, that is not what I asked you.

Do you want Donald Trump to win?

I don't want Hillary to win, let's put it like that.

Well, no, I want you to tell me if you want Donald Trump to win?

The West needs change, the West needs change, big change.

Get away from these governments that are virtually owned

by the multinationals.

That have led us into an endless series of war, where we have seen

the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

We need change.

Nigel Farage, we have to end there.

Thank you for being on HARDtalk.

Hello once again.