Ghassan Hasbani - Deputy Prime Minister, Lebanon HARDtalk

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A quarter of Lebanon's population are Syrian refugees,

which is putting the country's infrastructure and resources

The party of my guests, Ghassan Hasbani says he wants to send them

home. Some leading political figures

there are calling for the refugees But since some in the government

have ruled out talking directly to President Assad, how can they be

sure any returning refugees Ghassan Hasbani, welcome and thank

you for being with us. After one and a half million Syrians have sought

refuge in your country. About a quarter of your population. How big

a threat those that represent? It is a huge economic and social burden.

Lebanon welcomed all these Syrians at the beginning, given the

humanitarian situation as they were in. After a while, several years on,

the numbers have increased significantly and they have placed a

huge burden on infrastructure, on the health-care system, on

electricity, on everything. The United Nations and other countries

have been able to support them on a humanitarian basis... You do not

allow them to work and they cannot put down roots in your country... It

is almost impossible to integrate them with the scale. Imagine them

landing in the UK. It is virtually impossible to integrate them on any

level. On the humanitarian level, the crisis is actually turning into

a more permanent situation with is causing house community The Tic,

donor community tiredness. -- tiredness. How can they return home

without causing more potential tension. Your party leader has said

a few days ago, after several years, some refugees have started to act

like they own the place. Patience is running out. It is natural when you

have such a large number of people, in the north the ratio has reverse,

a quarter of the people hardly be needs. You can imagine the social

tensions at that could cause. 50% of the youth are totally unemployed and

this number is increasing and that is causing significant tension. Part

of that, you could argue is because you will not let them work and

contribute to the community productively and that creates social

problems. The youth unemployment among the Lebanese is 30%. It is

about the lack of availability. I noticed a colleague of yours saying,

a fellow Lebanese forces and Pete saying unfortunately they are not

taking job opportunities away from the Lebanese. How is that happening?

-- they are taking. Illegally, there are some mundane works... Some

Lebanese are exploiting them... In general, the Syrians have always

worked in Lebanon in specific jobs but now we see them in more

specialised jobs, in the healthcare sector, for example which becomes

more troubling. Policy decisions and to these problems. Refugees of all

nationalities enjoyed right. In a sense, a policy tightening the risk

of exploitation is the Human Rights Watch has pointed out, heightens the

risk of expectation and abuse. You create a situation where people are

they and you cannot do much about it but it kind of institutionalised as

the then a sense of uselessness and for your people resentment. Here

they are, they are not doing anything, who is paying for them?

The situation is much worse than that. It is not about the Lebanese

are presenting, the Syrian refugees receiving financial aid per family,

hospitalisation, medical support, receiving food rations and food

support as well as using Lebanese electricity and infrastructure so it

is not about job creation but about Lebanese wanted to go to hospital

and finding that this hospital is more than 50% induced by Syrian

refugees, paid for by someone while his services are less provided than

the refugees. We have not reached the point where there is resentment

causing tension at the extreme level, however this could lead to a

situation where both sides, both are refugees and the Lebanese, start

getting tired. You would seem similar report on social media a

little bit before we recorded a group of men physically assaulting a

refugee. They were arrested by your security forces are now. The video

which spread like wildfire shot the man from eastern province in Syria

being kicked on the ground as he begs this group of men to stop. They

demand he praises of the Syrian army and its people. There was subtly

going around urging Lebanese to beat Syria. It is already there. We have

a lot of Syrians are cursing at the Lebanese army, attacking them

verbally. Tensions are rising on both sides. Your suggested solution,

that they should go home. And you are going to put proposals to the

Cabinet of ways you think that can be achieved. What sort of thing that

you suggesting? The safer areas in Syria exceed in scale and size and

surface area, the surface area of Lebanon by about 60 times so there

are several safe areas in Syria right now. Were these people come

from, they are from different parts of Syria said the areas where they

can go back to home, they can. Some have been going back home and coming

back because the controls have not been 100% airtight. It is about

having the right structures for them to go back safely - this is an

important point- it is not about forcing them to go back to safely

returned with the international community support. You do not have

that, the UN special co-ordinator, whether or not it will be possible

to have in Syria areas where refugees will be able to go back is

far from happening. The conflict continues in a very dramatic way.

She is the expert. You would accept that. It is something to be

discussed. It depends. The group of refugees, they are not all from one

colour or one side. What is safe four someone is not safe for

another. This is interesting, you say they can decide. Let me point

out an example, an innocent, forgive me, it's slightly undermines people

's confidence in way that you are really that bothered. In January

2016, in violation of international obligations, they will refugees were

sent back to sea without assessing risk of harm upon return. You are

disputing that? People passed through the Lebanese epoch because

people cannot fly directly to Syria. Millions of Syrians do that, they

are not refugees. They drive through, they fly out of Beirut

airport because many lines could not fly out of Syria. There are areas

for people to safely go back and forth. Well, the Human Rights Watch

says they were forced back without consideration. Nobody forced

anybody. You are not signatories to the refugee convention say you have

not formally committed to the international standards and that is

another reason why people are sceptical about whether people can

take your word on that. More than 100 million people coming from Syria

or anywhere in the world, imagine the scale, coming to Europe. This is

the largest refugees per population situation in the world so norms, as

the world applies, cannot be applied there. The world has to work first

on making sure that the right secure areas in Syria for them to go back.

It is not Julie a Lebanese problem it is a European and international

problem. Presumably you are not wildly happy that Donald Trump

decided Syrians are nationality it is not what allowed in the US. What

we're saying here is it is important for the international community to

take this step and make sure there are safe areas in Syria, because we

have seen evidence of people going back to Syria safely and in the

refugee convention will tell you that any individual that can go

safely back home is not considered a refugee any more in the country

where they are plied refugee status from. Let's also talk about that,

there is no guarantee that these groups of people in Lebanon and feel

safe in the Assad regime area. These areas may be outside of that. If you

go and do it without the ultimate of the government and let's face it,

you have relations with the Syrian government for security reasons.

Allowing for that, why not say, we will deal with that, we may not like

you but if you want to reduce this burden sometimes it you have to deal

with people you wouldn't normally. Just to show you, about how we are

concerned about safe return, it requires that they return to areas

where they feel safe. The opposition has started a long time ago, long

before terrorist groups moved in Syria, this is a legitimate

opposition, if those people do not feel safe going back to the regime

area, hacking talk to the regime about sending them back, they might

be persecuted. They are not even willing to share their name with the

Syrian regime. If the ACA cannot do that, why should we do that. There

are safe areas, they can choose to go back... They can choose, no one

will be forced out? That is a yes or no question. Lebanon has agreed to

the principle that people will not be forced out... There is always a

part... If you are incentivising them... You are going to bribe them?

The international community is putting a major incentive for them

to stay in Lebanon. They getting unemployment benefits effectively.

Better to give them nothing so they get so desperate they go home. No,

being illogical about it, starting to build the infrastructure for them

where they can go back. It is a humanitarian think..

So the honest message you are sending to people in Lebanon, it

might not be individuals, it might just be the volume they are finding

too difficult to deal with, because sometimes Syrians are welcome,

sometimes not. We won't talk about the military. Is that you will send

them home, but it is going to take time. It is not going to happen over

the next month, the next year. And plainly put together is not

something that happens overnight. But we need to start working on it

from now, because we have like 30,000 new berths in Lebanon, a lot

of them are not registered. So basically how are they going to be

recognised as Syrian citizens later on? I understand. We are dealing

with that situation right now, to make sure they get recognised. Your

party leader, it is ridiculous to ask you to work with President

Assad, yet at the same time in government with Hezbollah, who are

fighting with President Assad's side. This must be straining

relations, not least when your political system is so finely

balanced. Look, we have formed a coalition government that includes

all constituents of the Lebanese society, and we have made sure that

the government manifest and the plan, which we call the return to

confidence, and we have made sure that any point we do not believe in

are actually either opposed to or not included in that programme.

Including the situation that Hezbollah has actually put the

country. We do not agree, although we are in government, it is a

coalition government, but we reserve the right not to agree for anyone to

carry arms in Lebanon except the police, army, and no one to defend

Lebanese borders except police and army. And I suppose some of these

combo misers risk undermining the state itself. This is what David at

the Washington Institute wrote earlier this year. The president

continues to defend Hezbollah's possession of weapons outside state

control, and its resistance of pressure against Israel. Again, all

these outside influences compromise what you can do as an independent

sovereign country. Our main objective is to keep the country's

sovereign, independent and safe. That is the problem, with all of

these people outside pulling the strings. There has been a lot of

influence in the past, but we managed to agree on an election

rule, we managed to agree on a budget, we managed to actually lot

of things through the system without external influence in the last six

months, at least. Six months, well, it is a start, isn't it? I was going

to ask you about the election, because it has taken years. We have

had the situation where they should have been a general election back in

2014 and there is now going to be one in 20 2017. There will be to

macros, one of a party candidate and one of an individual candidate but

they can still only vote for an individual from that same party

list. So in a sense haven't you missed an opportunity to slowly we

sectarianism? If they could have used that individual vote for any

candidate and any lest they might have said I am a supporter of the

needs front, I am a Christian, but actually I quite like that guy over

there. He is a socialist, he is from a different list, he might even be a

Muslim, but I think as an individual he is good for government and

Parliament in Lebanon. But you don't have that opportunity. Well, you

have the opportunity within the list. The lists are sectarian. No,

lists can be indefinite. You can have as many lists, as long as they

pass a certain threshold. This law has Exley created a better

representation, because in Lebanon it is a matrix. So without getting

involved in too many details, it is allowing actually, now, people who

have minorities but who have a presence, and are quite popular in

their regional area, to be selected from the list with a preferential

vote, or allowing people to form independent lists, and actually get

through the system, if they have... If they can pass the hurdle. So your

hope is that the Independent lists will actually broaden that kind

of... Will actually slowly create... Break some of that sectarianism up.

Exactly, and it will create opportunities for new faces in

Parliament, as well as it will supplement and also the party

politics that we aim to get to outside the sectarian structure. I

mean, Lebanon's political system kind of innocence seems frozen in

time. It is based on a sectarian division dating from 1943, which

used population figures from the census conducted in 1932, so that is

getting on for 90 years ago. I guess some of the population figures might

have changed a bit in that time. I wonder if you think that that

sectarianism embedded into the political structure is white,

internationally, Lebanon is viewed as so corrupt? It is not about

sectarianism. So sectarianism as part of the structure because it has

been defined this way, and it continues to be defined this way,

because it represents the various cultural structures of Lebanon,

which is a good mosaic. And this is a positivity about Lebanon, not a

negativity. Sectarian is unfortunate Lee was used in the civil war to

divide people up. But today it is quite different. Patrick Reed create

more value in creating multiple cultures, multiple different

religious background and religious groups, who live together, co-habit

this country, and work together. And then it protects minorities, and

divides them 50- 50, so it creates this partnership between Muslims and

Christians. And this is a unique experience in the Middle East. You

say it is not dividing up, but the Lebanon transparency Association

says corruption in Lebanon exists in its forms, including patronage,

embezzlement, kickbacks. Vote buying. The causes include the

postwar structure which has led to a power-sharing formula among

political and compartmentalised groups. That means they are

competing for resources. That was a situation created by the civil war,

unfortunately, which we have been working towards getting rid of as

much as possible. It is already 27 years ago. Indeed, and our party is

in government to actually curb that and fight it and all the things we

are doing are focused with a single-minded approach to curb

corruption. I guess... I am sure that is your intention, but you will

be aware that Transparency International, for instance, demoted

Lebanon and other 13 places on its list of corrupt countries. It is now

136 out of 176 countries. That was done... The research was done last

year, I think they should keep it updated with time. We look forward

to seeing what dramatic change there has been. It takes time to actually

reverse that trend. See, the classic example of this, and we will deal

with this relatively briefly, but it is important, is the inability to

provide a reliable electricity supply 24 hours a day, seven days a

week. On one of the consequences of that is that the State electricity

utility can't supply the electricity, so people have set up

their own generators. In some of that has inevitably committed to the

corruption. The leader of the progressive Socialist party tweeted

earlier this year, stop dividing electricity spoils. Save Lebanon's

electricity Centre from shabbiness, corruption, and those avaricious

politicians. What is happening is a crime, would you agree to crime?

Exactly, and might cry and the government is to actually demand

that we cut down any wastage that we still keep paying for electricity

through our budget, which has put a huge burden on the government

budget. 2 billion a year. About 1.5 billion-a-year, dollars, yes,

dollars. And this is a cumulative more than $20 billion over several

years. Now is the time to go back and is of that problem. And I have

been making this as my key agenda item in this government. We have

succeeded in pushing this agenda forward. There is no plan that is

being implemented by the Energy Minister, and we are making sure

that we are observing this plan very closely, so it could implement it

quickly, at the lowest possible cost, to get back electricity.

Because we are the last country in the world in terms of quality of

electricity supply, and we need to reverse that situation very, very

quickly. In five years it should be done. I hope so. You have got a 50

year plan, I think. At the moment the electricity company apparently

can't get the sign on at night outside its headquarters, according

to the Reuters agency. It doesn't sound great. Let me put to you what

a World Bank representative based in Beirut told Reuters. He was talking

in 2015. He said in about five years' time, come 2020, instead of

having an average supply of 16 to 18 hours a day probably will have gone

down to 12 hours. The technical solutions are all proven and tested.

You can build the plant but the money, but he says what is needed is

political will to make a decision. And that is what we are doing in

this government. You know, the electricity file pops up on the

government agenda every couple of weeks. So it is that frequent. We

meet every week, and we are pushing this agenda very, very quickly. So

when will the lights stay on any time of day or night? Well, today it

is 20 hours. We are actually pushing for this to happen. There are debris

solutions which will bring electricity quickly, but we need to

make sure that these temporary solutions are not passed a corrupt

system, they are passed through the official systems with transparency,

and all contracts are signed properly. And this is what we are

pushing for, as well as making sure that the longer term solutions are

unlocked very quickly without any further delays, and we just had

recently, a few days ago, a big discussion about the time lapse

required to actually get these off the ground very quickly. So we are

trying to do this within months, not years. Ghassan Hasbani, a promise of

power to the people. Thank you very much for being with us on HARDtalk.

Thank you. Many of us saw rain at some

stage of the weekend. For some of us, it came from big

clouds, threatening skies, and some intense downpours,

but I think most of us saw some