Extra Time: Rob Andrew - Former director of professional rugby, RFU Extra Time


Extra Time: Rob Andrew - Former director of professional rugby, RFU

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Now on BBC News, Extra Time.

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Welcome to Extra Time.

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Rugby union has never

been so popular.

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The World Cup is touted

as the third-biggest sporting event

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in the world.

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Player salaries get ever larger,

and the game expands

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into new territories,

from Georgia to China.

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And yet my guest today

says the sport could be

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brought to its knees if ongoing

tensions between the game's major

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stakeholders turn sour.

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Rob Andrew is a former

England international,

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and last year, he ended ten years

as a top administrator

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at the Rugby Football Union.

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What is his game plan

for securing rugby's future?

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Rob Andrew, welcome to Extra Time.

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Thank you.

One of the most

eye-catching phrases in your book is

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particularly doom laden. You write

interests and conflict at the height

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of rugby on this planet to be easily

bring the entire sport to its knees.

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Why do you say that?

Well, it is an

interesting point, and actually just

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this last few days, with the

southern hemisphere teams coming up

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to the north, and Barbarians playing

the All Blacks, the southern

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hemisphere unions themselves, and

all three chief executives, have

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come out and said there are real

threat to the southern hemisphere

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game. Lots of players leaving the

southern hemisphere for the riches

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of the north, in England and in

France, and there is a sort of

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danger that, over time, the rich

clubs of France and England will

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hoover up all of the best players,

put real pressure is on the southern

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hemisphere. Not only will they lose

test players, but they will lose

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players from the level below, which

means their own domestic games are

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damaged, and I think there is a real

risk.

Let me quote an example. 25

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euros charge Childs has a £1 billion

deal to play. You can't blame the

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player for wanting to earn money,

you can't blame the owners warning

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to attract the best talent. So how

do you resolve this?

And it goes to

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the very heart of what has happened

in the last 20 years. And look, I

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was at the beginning of that in

1995, when I went to Newcastle with

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Sir John Hall, and we were

criticised for paying exorbitant

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salaries then of £50,000 per year.

Now, you have this issue in rugby

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where the game is split between

union control and private ownership,

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which is a bit of a football model.

And it just creates loads and loads

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of tensions.

On the model in

football is that the club owners get

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more and more powerful. Do you see

the same happening in rugby union?

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Undoubtedly, there is no question of

that. It is probably only in England

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and France that this happens, so we

almost have a two tier system in

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rugby. We have private club

ownership in England and France,

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with significant amounts of money,

significant wealth in owners who are

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not just millionaires now but

billionaires. There were

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millionaires when they came into the

game, Sir John Hall and Nigel Ray,

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Nigel and those guys are still

there. And it just creates pressure.

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And when the athlete in the middle

is wanted by two owners,

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effectively, then you have tension.

And rugby has always had this

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tension. And a big part of my role,

the reason I went to the RFU, was to

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try and control that tension, if you

like, and create a working

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environment. At its very difficult,

and the more money that gets

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involved, the bigger those tensions

become.

How much to the club owners

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care about international rugby?

Well, I think deep down they still

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do. And I think deep down...

They

don't act as if they do.

It is a

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really difficult challenge, and one

of the big debates that is happening

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at the moment is around season

structure and length of season, and

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what the owners don't like... And to

be honest I didn't like very much

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when I was at Newcastle with Sir

John Hall, where your best player,

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we had Jonny Wilkinson, went missing

the big parts of the season. And it

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is a bit like club football. Man

United and Chelsea and Spurs

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allowing, say, Harry Kane to go

missing for three months of the

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season. And that is a challenge that

rugby has to deal with the next few

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years.

But you take someone like

S-bend, he says I could have stayed

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to be an All Black great that rugby

is not forever. So he is choosing

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big money, quick money, for what

could be quite a short career.

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Whether he stays in northern England

or not.

You can't blame players, I

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mean, who would have thought...

For

all the of the All Black jersey,

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which in our four goes.

And this is

the issue. I'm not saying anybody is

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right or wrong, but what I am saying

the market will dictate, the market

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forces, whether it is football,

cricket now, with T20, rugby, the

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market will determine where the

asset ends up.

And not the pride of

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the jersey.

Well, not if you are

talking about millions of pounds,

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which are life changing. And this

would clearly... In the amateur era,

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none of this ever happened. But I

suppose it is one of the

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consequences of going professional.

And did we all have a crystal ball

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1995, when it went professional?

You

couldn't see this coming?

Well,

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maybe we should have done. But even

then, in 1995, remember, the Premier

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League soccer had only been running

since 1982. So the Premier League

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soccer is only 25 years old and

could any of us have imagined the in

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English foot or? £1 million rugby

player, or IPL cricket getting

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millions of pounds for six weeks'

work.

Part of this is about

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eligibility, isn't it? Let's talk

about Nathan Hughes, a Fijian

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eligible for New Zealand, but

switching to England and is in Eddie

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Jones's squad after three years

here. So the question is whether

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three years is long enough for

residency. Why not make it five, why

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not make it never?

Yes, well, I

think that is another debate.

That

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is one for the lawyers?

It is one

for the administrators. World rugby

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are looking at that at the moment.

Everyone accepts three years is too

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short.

What do you think?

Three

years is definitely too short, could

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be five, could be seven.

Seven, as

many as seven years?

I think Tom if

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you don't do something, it means

that the islanders, in particular,

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who leave Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, to go

to Fiji or Australia, it is not just

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England, they are going to do it if

the rules allow a -- New Zealand or

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Australia. You can't blame the

player, can you?

So you might say

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seven years' residency is the

minimum. Does that have a cat's

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chance of coming through?

I think

maybe five years, but even his five

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years enough? But again, the whole

point here is that the game is

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turning on its axis, and actually,

there are real financial and

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planning challenges that will have a

longer term impact, as we move

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through. And who is to say that, in

time, the impact on the England

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national team won't be affected as

well. Because, a bit like soccer, if

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all of the best players come to play

in England or France, because we

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have got the biggest league...

Then

they won't have the playing

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experience.

So you are back into

this Catch-22 situation, and the

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debate in English soccer, winning

the World Cup or the under 16 or the

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under 20, will those talented

players get the opportunity.

You

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write in your book, without

compromises, the World Cup model

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will be under threat. Can you

outlined to me how this Komla most

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will be reached? Maybe it is the

five-year residency limit? Other are

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the rules you would like to bring

in?

Well, I think it is about the

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residency, but it is about how do

you ensure that there is enough

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money going around the key players

in the southern hemisphere. And that

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is one of the biggest challenges for

South Africa, Australia and New

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Zealand, is how do they keep enough

talent at home to keep their game is

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vibrant.

So is it a fairer

distribution of wealth amongst the

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nation 's?

Well, we have had those

discussions, and those are down

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difficult discussions to have, to

say Will the big give to the poorer?

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The RFU is reporting that the new

international laws are failing to

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reduce the number of so-called

involvements, or collisions. On the

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contrary, these episodes are on the

increase. What is to be done about

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player safety in rugby union? Has

become a desperately brutal game.

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Yes, but I think it has. I think

there is a genuine belief amongst

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world rugby, and all the unions, to

try and find a solution to something

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that, once you go professional and

you create these phenomenal

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athletes, and you turn the dial up

as far as we have, the difficulty is

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turning it back down again.

Do you

think it could even get hotter, as

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it were?

Well, I am not sure how

much hotter it could get, to be

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honest, but it is a challenge. And

one of the biggest challenges is, as

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you say, the number of involvements.

We talk about collisions in rugby. I

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mean, we never talked about

collisions when I played. You talked

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about getting out of the way of

collisions, not sort of having

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collisions. Now, we talk about lots

of hits and collisions, and it has

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sort of change the way people think

about the game.

There is now talk of

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strike action by the players, in

order to preserve, effectively,

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their careers, and maybe even the

health and later life. Is that

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something you would support? Is that

something that you might even engage

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in, if you were still playing?

I

think if I was a player I would be

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certainly engaging in it, in terms

of protecting...

Would you go on

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strike if you were?

Well, you would

certainly question what is being

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proposed at the moment, in terms of

the welfare of the individual. It is

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a very tough, long season. And this

goes to the heart of the conflict

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between the union and the club.

Because the club owners want to

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stretch the season out, so that

their players are playing for them

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more than they are for the union.

And, if you are a player, you have

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only one course of action, which is

actually to say, look, I am not

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prepared to go on the field. And

that is one of the biggest

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challenges.

Well, long-term

consequences, of course, are in the

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Mexia. Brain damage. But there could

one day at the elite level be a

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death on the pitch. I mean, I don't

want to be scaremongering about this

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but we know that at levels below the

professional game there have been

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incidents like that. A 19-year-old

early the this year in New Zealand

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died as a result of injuries he

sustained on the pitch. Is that what

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it will take for rugby to come to

its senses?

For goodness's sake, we

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will pray and hope that that does

not a occur, and there has always

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been an element of risk in rugby,

and sadly I was involved at school

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with one of my best mates who has

been a paraplegic for nearly 40

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years, who dedicate the book too, a

called Kris McKeon, and Rory and I

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were on the school field when he was

injured in a tackle in the late 70s.

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And it is always the one thing that

I sort of hate most about the game,

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if you like, that...

It has

obviously had a profound affect on

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you.

It has, and Chris is still

alive, he is a remarkable human

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being, who has not got any malice

towards the game. But, in, he was 15

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years when this happened. And... So

injury in rugby is something that is

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very close to my heart. And I think

it is a real issue for the game that

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cannot be taken too lightly. And

there is a danger, if things

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aren't... If something doesn't

happen to turn down this dial,

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people will get put off playing

rugby. And I don't want that, I

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don't want that at all. What you

already here on touchlines, with

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parents, mums in particular, and

just sort of do they really want

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their children to be playing rugby?

And those things snowballed. And

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what I have seen in sport, very

quickly, over the last sort of

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decade, maybe slightly longer, is

the pace of change in modern life,

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particularly when it is associated

with sport, can happen like that.

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And if you are not careful, you

could be two, three, four, five

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years down the line, and there are

bigger issues at play there.

A

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curious thing here, Rob, is that the

players want to play, of course they

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want to play, because they love the

game, but also that they are

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reckless about the damage to their

bodies, and some even relish the

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pain. A quote from one prop, the

pain bonds you as a team. From that

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you get a deeper learning of each

other, a deeper trust each other.

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How do you react to that?

Yes, and I

understand that. I understand that

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from Dan. He was a front row

forward, I understood it when I

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played. There was a bond around the

physical nature of the sport. I

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think there comes a point when the

administrators of the game have a

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much wider responsibility to protect

the players from themselves, and to

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protect the long-term interests of

the game, so that in 50 years' time,

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the game is still being played, and

is still a sport of choice for young

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people. Because it has so many

qualities. But, as I say, there is

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an alarm going off here, and I think

people are hearing it, and it is

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finding the answer that is always

the damned difficult thing to do.

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Let's talk about your thymic

clicking them. You spoke about the

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2012 World Cup as a pet. --

Twickenham. What you are talking

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about is that you failed to employ

any meaningful programme to ensure

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consistency in progress.

That is one

way of interpreting it. Some people

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would agree with you, and some

people would say that, but I would

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disagree with that, and say...

On

what basis?

I would say that when

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you look at sporting systems, and

there was not a great deal of system

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work back in English rugby in 2006,

which is what I mean by that... In

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2003 was that once every ten years

England team. The 2011 and 2015

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World Cups were clearly very

difficult. Systems take years to

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build. When you talk to UK sport or

any sporting organisation, there is

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a timeline to these things. The

proof will be in the pudding over

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the next ten years.

So talking about

the World Cup in 2019, if you win

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that, you are saying that it would

be to your credit, because you put

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the systems...

No, I am not saying

that. But if you understand sport

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systems, you understand how long it

takes to put these things into

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place. From 2008, you do need that

time. That is not to say that in

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2015 the team should not have done

better, but over the next decade,

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given the quality of talent in the

system that is in place in England,

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and the depth of talent, then

England should do well, that is my

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view. And I said that before the

2015 World Cup and I stick with it.

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That doesn't mean to say that things

will not go wrong with team

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selection and all the rest of us to

make it. -- or the rest of it.

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Somebody wrote about your time at

Twickenham and said it was

0:16:360:16:40

disastrous. He pointed to previous

appointments, and of course, you

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have a ready referred to 2015, which

was a disaster. If there was a car

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crash, then it was Andrew that were

sitting behind the wheel, that was

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what was written.

He is gone.

It is

a well-respected writer. He is a

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well respected writer.

By some, but

not all. I think he has had an

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agenda for most of his career, as

far as I can see.

An anti-Andrew a

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gender?

Yes, I think so. I think it

is about understanding what people's

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roles are. -- agenda. My role at

times at the RFU, and I said this

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many times, I made mistakes. And I

think most respected rugby

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journalists understand what was

going on. Stephen has his view and

0:17:520:17:56

has headed for 30. When I respect

that view or not is up to me.

Some

0:17:560:18:02

of the difficulties were obviously

beyond your control, the moment in

0:18:020:18:06

2011 Dean, when a tragedy attention

of the Auckland Blues. -- 2011,

0:18:060:18:20

when.

-- police. Things happened

under Martin's rain. Players let him

0:18:200:18:25

down. There is no question. Senior

players let him down. They have got

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to look in the mirror and work out

whether they did or they didn't. I

0:18:310:18:36

nor the position was and I think

mine does. And then obviously with

0:18:360:18:40

the end of the World Cup, going out

to France in the quarter-final, we

0:18:400:18:44

sat around having dinner in

Auckland, and the whole of the

0:18:440:18:49

management team - and they are

pretty big management teams now,

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with rugby, possibly as many as

players - and that is the modern

0:18:520:18:58

way, isn't it? And a phone rang, and

I was sat virtually opposite John,

0:18:580:19:08

and you could hear him go, yes, he

is what? He's? And he's been

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arrested? Issey OK? And it was sort

of - poor old Tom, and the farmers

0:19:170:19:31

were done, and we said what on

earth. And it was Toby Flood who

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basically said we are on a ferry on

the way back to Auckland Harbour. --

0:19:380:19:43

is he OK. One minute he was there,

the next minute he was in the

0:19:430:19:49

harbour.

Eventually, he was fished

out, was in the? But the fact is

0:19:490:19:54

that he has been in trouble here in

the UK, once with the police, and

0:19:540:19:58

once with Eddie Jones, the head

coach. Is he a liability? Is he

0:19:580:20:02

worth it?

How many chances to

coaches give players? I think that

0:20:020:20:08

is one of the issues.

We have

mentioned three incidents, three and

0:20:080:20:15

you are out, is that?

I think is one

of those examples of the modern

0:20:150:20:20

game, modern characters, the amount

of money, the level of

0:20:200:20:24

responsibility that you would expect

place to take not just in rugby but

0:20:240:20:30

other sports as well. We are in the

modern world and the modern media,

0:20:300:20:34

and players to need to take more

responsibility, or coaches are

0:20:340:20:43

effectively forced to lock people in

their rooms.

And wouldn't that be a

0:20:430:20:47

crazy position? Let's talk about

Eddie Jones. You are nearly at the

0:20:470:20:52

end of your time at Twickenham when

he was a appointed coach. Could you

0:20:520:20:57

take credit for what appears to have

been a successful decision?

That is

0:20:570:21:01

the other thing I mentioned. Have

your point President Almazbek

0:21:010:21:04

Atambayev you have a recruitment

process with really experienced

0:21:040:21:13

people?

And one of those on the

current panel was an Englishman, was

0:21:130:21:20

in the?

At the time, it was felt

that it was the right thing at the

0:21:200:21:25

right time for English rugby. And

again Stephen Jones, get your facts

0:21:250:21:30

right, I didn't our point Lancaster,

not that it means much to him, but

0:21:300:21:39

it is one of those things where, you

look at the Eddie Jones appointment,

0:21:390:21:45

and the decision was taken that we

have two have a coach with

0:21:450:21:49

international experience. -- didn't

appoint. They will not be English.

0:21:490:21:52

Because you have just sacked one

with international experience. The

0:21:520:21:59

decision there which can talk with

the backing of the board, and he and

0:21:590:22:05

I spoke about it, was who was

available at the moment. -- Ian. Who

0:22:050:22:11

can come in and take a good group of

players, and yes, it has talent

0:22:110:22:19

there, but some do with

international experience.

I will

0:22:190:22:26

move you on, because running out of

time. But any information on the

0:22:260:22:31

2023 World Cup? In so could be South

Africa. I learned the Irish are

0:22:310:22:40

disappointed.

These processes are

very robust in terms of what you

0:22:400:22:48

have to go through. Ireland, France,

and South Africa have, I suspect,

0:22:480:22:53

put in strong bids. Had they come to

the final decision is down to the

0:22:530:23:00

board. Of course Ireland will be

hugely disappointed if they don't

0:23:000:23:03

get it. But equally, South Africa

was a wonderful World Cup in 1985.

0:23:030:23:11

France was wonderful in 2007. They

would all do great jobs.

A final

0:23:110:23:17

question and a brief and said he

will. England for 2019 of the World

0:23:170:23:22

Cup, had you read their chances 1-

ten, with sending winners?

It is up

0:23:220:23:28

there. The top end of that scale.

There is no cushion about that. This

0:23:280:23:33

is already a strong English group of

players. Two years ago. They will

0:23:330:23:39

get better. And then it will be down

to in those eight weeks, have they

0:23:390:23:44

got their preparation right, and

they got selection right, can they

0:23:440:23:49

handled it pressure, which is what

marks out the World Cup winning

0:23:490:23:53

teams. 2003 do that. But in only one

we didn't in the World Cup final.

0:23:530:23:58

This team is probably the nearest he

would have had in two years time

0:23:580:24:05

that will have a real chance when

they go to Japan.

Thank you very a

0:24:050:24:09

much indeed. -- Thank you very much

indeed.

0:24:090:24:28

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