Jonathan Moyo - Former Cabinet Minister, Zimbabwe HARDtalk


Jonathan Moyo - Former Cabinet Minister, Zimbabwe

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on Tuesday night.

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Now on BBC News: HARDtalk.

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Welcome to HARDtalk,

with me, Zeinab Badawi.

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The removal of Robert Mugabe

as president of Zimbabwe in November

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led to several Mugabe

loyalists going underground.

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The most prominent of these is

probably Jonathan Moyo.

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Until recently, a cabinet minister,

key ally and close adviser

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to Robert Mugabe

and his wife, Grace.

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He has been described as one

of the most hated men

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in Zimbabwe, and is wanted in

the country on corruption charges.

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Jonathan Moyo is now in hiding

in self-imposed exile,

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and says his family

is being harassed, and that his

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life is under threat.

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We cannot disclose his location, at

his request. This is his first

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interview since his ousting of

President Mugabe.

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What has he got to say for himself?

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Jonathan Moyo, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Why have you gone into hiding, and

not wish to disclose your

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whereabouts?

It is because of the

extraordinary situation that exists

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in Zimbabwe following the

unconstitutional overthrow of the

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government in a military coup that

took place on 15 November. And on

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that day the military specifically

targeted my house and myself with a

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clear intention to cause harm, and

that is why I am not in the country,

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although I left the country legally.

I am not at liberty to disclose my

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whereabouts, because they have shown

a very clear and determined

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intention to find me and harm me

wherever I am.

You have talked about

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worries about your life, and threats

and harassment, and so on. What is

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the evidence for that?

It is Common

Cause in Zimbabwe. I have even put

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that evidence on my Twitter feed. On

the morning of 15 November, around

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2:30am Zimbabwean time, between 15

to 25 heavily armed SAS soldiers

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came to my residence, and they

destroyed the gate, destroyed the

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entrance, the door to my house, and

shot their way into every room

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looking for me. But fortunately they

did not find me, and none of the

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members of my family were there,

because I had been forewarned the

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previous night that the military

were going to raid my house, and I

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was advised by a very close friend

that I should not spend the night at

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my house, and that I should take

every member of my family with me

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out of the house, and the evidence,

physical evidence, of what then

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happened to my house, has been there

for anybody to see.

All right, so

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where did you go then? Where did you

go? Reports are that you went with

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your family to Robert Mugabe's

mansion, and that they were allowed

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to stay, but you refuse? Is that

what happened?

That is false. The

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military people who wanted to harm

me on the night of the coup don't

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actually know what happened, and

they have been peddling falsehoods

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about these occurrences. What I

would say, without putting in

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jeopardy many of God's people who

were very kind to give me

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assistance, is that it is true that

I took my family with me on the

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night of 14 November to my

colleague's residents, and my

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colleague being the then Minister of

local government. And the amazing

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fact is that his house was also

attacked about the same time when my

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house was being attacked. When I was

there with my family, it was him and

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his family, and altogether there

were 11 of us at his residence when

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the residence was attacked.

All

right, so that's where you went. We

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know that he and you are one of the

most wanted men from Zimbabwe, and

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in fact the former Finance Minister

is in prison. How did you manage to

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escape Zimbabwe? You say you left

legally, but on the other hand you

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have just described how the army and

the authorities were coming after

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you.

Yes, when they came to attack

Saviour Kasukuwere's house at about

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2:30am on 15 November, they

subjected it to some 15 minutes of

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gunfire, and amazingly, after those

15 minutes, and they surrounded the

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house, the sound of gunfire just

went silent. And we waited therefore

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I think something like ten minutes,

and there was no movement or sign of

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any presence of these Special Forces

that had surrounded the house, and

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shot at it from every angle. And we

then managed to get out of the

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house, and we were amazed that they

were no longer there. They probably

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believed that they...

So how did you

leave the country? You have

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explained how the army attacked both

your house and Saviour Kasukuwere's

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house, but how did you actually

leave Zimbabwe? On the other

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question I asked you is, why do you

now fear for your life since you

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have left the country? Are you

receiving more death threats where

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you are? And how did you leave the

country?

I left Zimbabwean with the

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help of people who to me are angels,

because they saved lives. And I am

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not at liberty to say who helped me,

how they helped me, and how I left

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Zimbabwe, except to say I left

Zimbabwe when President Mugabe was

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the president of the country, and I

left with the assistance of these

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people, legally. Legally. I left the

country legally. I managed to escape

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the net of the military people, and

to be where I am, legally.

So... But

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do you not think that, as I said,

you know, you have got the new

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Zimbabwean government saying they

have got into bowl, they want

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Interpol to help them locate you,

and a couple of others, the most

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wanted, some say most hated man in

Zimbabwe, because you were of course

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very, very close to Robert Mugabe.

It is going to be a matter of time,

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isn't it, before you are returned to

the country?

Well, fortunately there

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is something called International

Law. I want to make clear that, when

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I left Zimbabwe, there was no

warrant of arrest against me. And

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there was only a death warrant, and

we have incontrovertible evidence,

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in black and white, documentation

that shows what the intention of the

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joint in Harare was, with respect to

my security and that of my

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colleagues -- junta. They have,

since the coup, started framing all

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sorts of political charges in the

guise of terminal charges. They say

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they were targeting the so-called

criminal people, criminals

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surrounding President Mugabe. But we

now know that they were talking

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about political criminals. They have

not come up with any crimes that

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rise to the level of charges that

would warrant the interest or

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attention of Interpol. These are

people in pursuit of a political

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agenda. They believe that we

committed political crimes by

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supporting President Mugabe and not

supporting them. So this is a very

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strange and unique definition of

criminals, only applicable to

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Zimbabwe. But I repeat, there is

international law. Yes, everything

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will finally...

There is also

Zimbabwean law, and the government

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has said it wants the president, he

wants to track $2 billion of state

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funds that have disappeared through

corruption and the reports suggest

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that you are wanted for allegedly

stealing assets, under the systemic

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corruption that we know existed

under the Mugabe years.

There is no

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such evidence they put anywhere.

They are going after people who they

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allege were holding beans, rice...

You are one of those. You are one of

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the people they say was involved in

systemic corruption. Let me just

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tell you what a political analyst

and former party member has said. He

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talks about the new government's

delicate handling of the old man,

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Robert Mugabe, but they will make an

example of grace Mugabe, and some

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others around her, even though the

corruption goes much bigger. You

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were one of Grace Mugabe's key

allies, part of the so-called G 40

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faction which was trying to

manoeuvre her as successor to Robert

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Mugabe, so you are really top of the

list when it comes to the people who

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are wanted for this alleged

corruption.

First of all, it is not

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corrupt to support particular

politician to become any

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officeholder, whether it is vice

president, resident. It can't be a

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crime in a constitutional democracy.

It is false to allege that there was

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an attempt to elevate Doctor Grace

Mugabe, the former first Lady. What

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is really going on here is that

there is a group of people that sees

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itself as the stockholders of

Zimbabwe. And this group is led by

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Mnangagwa, who is now president, but

the control of this group is the

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general who was the vice president

now. But he is vice president

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because of a military coup. He has

not been voted into that offers. If

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you grant power by force, you then

must find excuses to justify that

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ground. And this is what they are

doing.

You are questioning

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Mnangagwa, the new president. World

reaction has by and large welcomed

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him. Rex Tillerson, the US Secretary

of State, Zimbabwe has an

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opportunity to put itself on a new

path. Boris Johnson, Mnangagwa...

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And Angela Merkel, Germany will

support you as a partner in your

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endeavours to start a new chapter in

the history of Zimbabwe. That is the

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reality you are facing now. You can

criticise what has happened as much

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as you like, but that is what the

world as saying. It has accepted

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this.

Yes, it is not the world which

chooses the leaders of Zimbabwe.

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Zimbabwe has a constitution, and

Mnangagwa and his partner know only

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too well that they have come into

power via the Bullet, and not the

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ballot. The Constitution of Zimbabwe

requires people to come into power

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via the ballot.

There will be

elections in 2018, this year.

The

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people of Zimbabwe will decide. If

the world wants to be at odds with

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the popular will of the people of

Zimbabwe, that is up to them. We can

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only be concerned about the Republic

of Zimbabwe, the views of the people

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of Zimbabwe, the international

conspiracy that supports a

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dictatorship, that has come to power

via the Bullet, is another story. It

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will not be experienced by the

Zimbabweans for the first time.

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Well, he has promised free and fair

elections in August this year.

You

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can't hold free and fair elections.

There has never been a single case

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of a government that has come to

power via the Bullet.

You have

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talked of conspiracy, but what is it

you want? Because in one of your

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tweet since Mugabe lost power, is

said to the new leadership in

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Zimbabwe, if you and your lot think

that this will last, then you ain't

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seen nothing yet, come rain or

shine. Are you plotting?

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No. Zimbabwe, in spite of this coup,

Zeinab, it has come off age. We have

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a new constitution and this is

constitution the people have made

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for themselves, and it has been

broken, and it has been broken via a

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coup, and if people think Zimbabwe

will embrace the coup and change

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leaders when they know the factors,

because right now the Cabinet of the

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Republic Zimbabwe is by the most

feared people in this country. They

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are feared because they are

associated with every atrocity that

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has happened. The people of Zimbabwe

cannot be expected to embrace the

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most feared individuals.

What do you

want, a return to the status quo, a

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return of Robert Mugabe and Grace

Mugabe as his possible successor? Is

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that what you would like to see?

Well, every thinking, right-thinking

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Zimbabwean would like to see the

return of constitutionalism and

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legitimacy in Zimbabwe. It is not

about any individual. It is about

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the rule of law. The Constitution of

the country has been subverted. And

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there has to be a return to can stew

Cheryl is. And we do not expect the

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same people who overthrew the

Constitution to restore it. And

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there is a lot that gets set about

Mugabe. I want to put on record that

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I for one am very, very happy, proud

of the fact that I served with him

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and under him.

And you backed Grace

Mugabe, who is by and large not

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admired at all in the country. Are

you happy, do you want to see her

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still having chances of getting into

power?

Zeinab, the fact that people,

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some people, who may in fact be a

minority, have issues with Doctor

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Grace Mugabe does not mean it is a

crime to support her. No one can

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sustain that view. It is only the

people who decide who will lead them

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through an election. You do not

prevent an election through a

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military coup, simply arguing that

you do not like President Mugabe. It

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is unprofessional for an army to do

that. The Zimbabwean army has joined

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the ranks of banana republics where

military individuals intervene

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because they do not like individual,

they lay that individual. They have

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reduced our country to a country of

good guys versus bad guys.

Have you

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spoken to Grace Mugabe?

As far as I

am concerned... Grace Mugabe was not

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only the First Lady, she was also

the secretary for women's affairs in

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the ruling party, and that position,

Zeinab, is a very serious position.

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And as a leader, a top leader in the

party, she was entitled, one, to

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discharge the programme and, two,

have her views as to who should

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occupy office. She was entitled to

that. And in doing so...

Have you

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spoken to her? She has not been

seen. Have you spoken to her, or for

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that matter Robert Mugabe?

No, I

haven't, because of circumstances

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that have arisen. I look forward to

doing so, specially speaking with

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President Mugabe, who is Zimbabwe's

pastor, and unfortunately we are not

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Cubans because our politics have

been influenced by our colonial

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relationship with the white settler

economy and with Britain.

You said

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you are proud of having served under

Robert Mugabe. You have talked about

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his legacy. His legacy, for example,

three quarters of Zimbabwe's

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population live on less than five

dollars a day. One quarter under the

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age of five experience stunted

growth. The Trade Union Congress in

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Zimbabwe says that there is 90%

unemployment. I could go on and on.

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You are higher education minister.

The fees for a term at a university

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in Zimbabwe is $1000 US per term. So

it has become really something that

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only the privileged few can enjoy.

That is just an example of the

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legacy that you talk about.

No, that

is not a legacy! That is what you

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are calling the legacy. You are

identifying certain challenges that

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the Republic Zimbabwe has and you

say that this is the legacy. No!

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That is a very strange definition of

legacy. We accept, as we did even as

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we were in government, that there

were challenges facing the country.

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We know what the reasons for some of

those policy challenges are. But

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unfortunately the President put

faith in the people who have now

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turned against him and who used his

assignment of responsibility to in

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fact plot his downfall.

What you are

part of a government, as I said,

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which, this current government says

now, you're part of this systemic

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corruption, we have heard press

reports of your lavish home in

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Harare.

My home is very modest in

the neighbourhood. There is nothing

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extraordinary about it.

It is

described as lavish.

I build that

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house when I was not in government.

I worked very hard in order to get

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that house built. I am very proud.

You people can create as many

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stories as they want. But the truth

of the matter is you will not find a

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single case where I took a cent to

build anything for myself almost

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family.

Are you talking to an

intermediary about your own future

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and whether you can make some kind

of deal on unity from prosecution?

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You cannot discuss those issues with

an illegal regime. And an illegal

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regime is one that comes into power

against the Constitution in

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violation of the Constitution. That

regime may be in effective control

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of the territory, but it is an

illegal regime, it is an

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illegitimate regime. They kept

saying they want to have elections

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in six months. We know that when

Emmerson Mnangagwa went to Morgan 's

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house, the opposition leader in

Zimbabwe, they pretended that they

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were concerned about his health and

so forth but we know that they

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wanted to negotiate with him to

postpone elections for at least

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three years. They are afraid of

elections. They do not want to have

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free and fair elections let alone

credible elections.

What will you

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do, do you want immunity from

prosecution, do you want to go back

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to Zimbabwe?

We would... Every

Zimbabwean who cares about the

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country would like to see a return

to the constitutionalism. That is

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the fundamental. We must have the

rule of law. The army deployed

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itself in Zimbabwe when the

Constitution says only that

0:21:320:21:36

President can deploy it. When you

have people who have deployed

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themselves, taken over all the

institutions of the state and

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government, you don't discuss

immunity with them.

But if you were

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to be offered it, would you go back,

if you were to be fitted, Woody go

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back?

When the offers you immunity,

you would be a full to enter into

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what is called a frosty and Bagan?

There are press reports that you

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asked the Kenyan authorities for a

bargain and this was refused. Where

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would you go?

-- Faustian bargain.

These are falls reports. I want to

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tell you what you know. You can't

have people become stateless just

0:22:220:22:28

because some individuals have

grabbed power in their home country.

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That is not international law. We do

not live in the jungle any more. So

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these questions will resolve

themselves in the fullness of time.

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So how is Jonathan Moyo going to

live, forever a fugitive on the run?

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Where are you going to live, will

you seek asylum?

I want to remind

0:22:490:22:52

you when I left Zimbabwe there was

no warrant of arrest against me. I

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did not run away from any warrant of

arrest. I ran away, if you want to

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use those terms, from a death

warrant, and a lawful attack on my

0:23:020:23:06

house by military people -- and an

arm lawful attack on my house by

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military people. There is no one in

the world who would sit and say come

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and attack me, come and kill me. You

do not implement justice by sending

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armed soldiers to attack a civilian

resident. So, I am not bothered

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about that question, because at some

point the rule of law and

0:23:290:23:36

constitutionalism will speak.

Zimbabweans are already demanding -

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they want to know what happened to

President Mugabe. He was humiliated

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by the very same people who were

saying they want to restore his

0:23:430:23:48

legacy, who were claiming to be

targeting others around him when, in

0:23:480:23:53

fact, they were targeting Mugabe and

they did so in a very humiliating

0:23:530:23:57

and totally unacceptable way.

Zimbabweans, forget about me,

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Zimbabweans in the country are

asking fundamental questions about

0:24:020:24:06

what happened, why it happened and

they want to see restoration of the

0:24:060:24:10

rule of law, constitutionalism in

Zimbabwe, and they will get it.

0:24:100:24:17

Jonathan Moyo, thank you very much

indeed for coming on HARDtalk.

0:24:170:24:41

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