Jonathan Moyo - Former Cabinet Minister, Zimbabwe HARDtalk

on Tuesday night.

Now on BBC News: HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk,

with me, Zeinab Badawi.

The removal of Robert Mugabe

as president of Zimbabwe in November

led to several Mugabe

loyalists going underground.

The most prominent of these is

probably Jonathan Moyo.

Until recently, a cabinet minister,

key ally and close adviser

to Robert Mugabe

and his wife, Grace.

He has been described as one

of the most hated men

in Zimbabwe, and is wanted in

the country on corruption charges.

Jonathan Moyo is now in hiding

in self-imposed exile,

and says his family

is being harassed, and that his

life is under threat.

We cannot disclose his location, at

his request. This is his first

interview since his ousting of

President Mugabe.

What has he got to say for himself?

Jonathan Moyo, welcome to HARDtalk.

Why have you gone into hiding, and

not wish to disclose your

whereabouts?

It is because of the

extraordinary situation that exists

in Zimbabwe following the

unconstitutional overthrow of the

government in a military coup that

took place on 15 November. And on

that day the military specifically

targeted my house and myself with a

clear intention to cause harm, and

that is why I am not in the country,

although I left the country legally.

I am not at liberty to disclose my

whereabouts, because they have shown

a very clear and determined

intention to find me and harm me

wherever I am.

You have talked about

worries about your life, and threats

and harassment, and so on. What is

the evidence for that?

It is Common

Cause in Zimbabwe. I have even put

that evidence on my Twitter feed. On

the morning of 15 November, around

2:30am Zimbabwean time, between 15

to 25 heavily armed SAS soldiers

came to my residence, and they

destroyed the gate, destroyed the

entrance, the door to my house, and

shot their way into every room

looking for me. But fortunately they

did not find me, and none of the

members of my family were there,

because I had been forewarned the

previous night that the military

were going to raid my house, and I

was advised by a very close friend

that I should not spend the night at

my house, and that I should take

every member of my family with me

out of the house, and the evidence,

physical evidence, of what then

happened to my house, has been there

for anybody to see.

All right, so

where did you go then? Where did you

go? Reports are that you went with

your family to Robert Mugabe's

mansion, and that they were allowed

to stay, but you refuse? Is that

what happened?

That is false. The

military people who wanted to harm

me on the night of the coup don't

actually know what happened, and

they have been peddling falsehoods

about these occurrences. What I

would say, without putting in

jeopardy many of God's people who

were very kind to give me

assistance, is that it is true that

I took my family with me on the

night of 14 November to my

colleague's residents, and my

colleague being the then Minister of

local government. And the amazing

fact is that his house was also

attacked about the same time when my

house was being attacked. When I was

there with my family, it was him and

his family, and altogether there

were 11 of us at his residence when

the residence was attacked.

All

right, so that's where you went. We

know that he and you are one of the

most wanted men from Zimbabwe, and

in fact the former Finance Minister

is in prison. How did you manage to

escape Zimbabwe? You say you left

legally, but on the other hand you

have just described how the army and

the authorities were coming after

you.

Yes, when they came to attack

Saviour Kasukuwere's house at about

2:30am on 15 November, they

subjected it to some 15 minutes of

gunfire, and amazingly, after those

15 minutes, and they surrounded the

house, the sound of gunfire just

went silent. And we waited therefore

I think something like ten minutes,

and there was no movement or sign of

any presence of these Special Forces

that had surrounded the house, and

shot at it from every angle. And we

then managed to get out of the

house, and we were amazed that they

were no longer there. They probably

believed that they...

So how did you

leave the country? You have

explained how the army attacked both

your house and Saviour Kasukuwere's

house, but how did you actually

leave Zimbabwe? On the other

question I asked you is, why do you

now fear for your life since you

have left the country? Are you

receiving more death threats where

you are? And how did you leave the

country?

I left Zimbabwean with the

help of people who to me are angels,

because they saved lives. And I am

not at liberty to say who helped me,

how they helped me, and how I left

Zimbabwe, except to say I left

Zimbabwe when President Mugabe was

the president of the country, and I

left with the assistance of these

people, legally. Legally. I left the

country legally. I managed to escape

the net of the military people, and

to be where I am, legally.

So... But

do you not think that, as I said,

you know, you have got the new

Zimbabwean government saying they

have got into bowl, they want

Interpol to help them locate you,

and a couple of others, the most

wanted, some say most hated man in

Zimbabwe, because you were of course

very, very close to Robert Mugabe.

It is going to be a matter of time,

isn't it, before you are returned to

the country?

Well, fortunately there

is something called International

Law. I want to make clear that, when

I left Zimbabwe, there was no

warrant of arrest against me. And

there was only a death warrant, and

we have incontrovertible evidence,

in black and white, documentation

that shows what the intention of the

joint in Harare was, with respect to

my security and that of my

colleagues -- junta. They have,

since the coup, started framing all

sorts of political charges in the

guise of terminal charges. They say

they were targeting the so-called

criminal people, criminals

surrounding President Mugabe. But we

now know that they were talking

about political criminals. They have

not come up with any crimes that

rise to the level of charges that

would warrant the interest or

attention of Interpol. These are

people in pursuit of a political

agenda. They believe that we

committed political crimes by

supporting President Mugabe and not

supporting them. So this is a very

strange and unique definition of

criminals, only applicable to

Zimbabwe. But I repeat, there is

international law. Yes, everything

will finally...

There is also

Zimbabwean law, and the government

has said it wants the president, he

wants to track $2 billion of state

funds that have disappeared through

corruption and the reports suggest

that you are wanted for allegedly

stealing assets, under the systemic

corruption that we know existed

under the Mugabe years.

There is no

such evidence they put anywhere.

They are going after people who they

allege were holding beans, rice...

You are one of those. You are one of

the people they say was involved in

systemic corruption. Let me just

tell you what a political analyst

and former party member has said. He

talks about the new government's

delicate handling of the old man,

Robert Mugabe, but they will make an

example of grace Mugabe, and some

others around her, even though the

corruption goes much bigger. You

were one of Grace Mugabe's key

allies, part of the so-called G 40

faction which was trying to

manoeuvre her as successor to Robert

Mugabe, so you are really top of the

list when it comes to the people who

are wanted for this alleged

corruption.

First of all, it is not

corrupt to support particular

politician to become any

officeholder, whether it is vice

president, resident. It can't be a

crime in a constitutional democracy.

It is false to allege that there was

an attempt to elevate Doctor Grace

Mugabe, the former first Lady. What

is really going on here is that

there is a group of people that sees

itself as the stockholders of

Zimbabwe. And this group is led by

Mnangagwa, who is now president, but

the control of this group is the

general who was the vice president

now. But he is vice president

because of a military coup. He has

not been voted into that offers. If

you grant power by force, you then

must find excuses to justify that

ground. And this is what they are

doing.

You are questioning

Mnangagwa, the new president. World

reaction has by and large welcomed

him. Rex Tillerson, the US Secretary

of State, Zimbabwe has an

opportunity to put itself on a new

path. Boris Johnson, Mnangagwa...

And Angela Merkel, Germany will

support you as a partner in your

endeavours to start a new chapter in

the history of Zimbabwe. That is the

reality you are facing now. You can

criticise what has happened as much

as you like, but that is what the

world as saying. It has accepted

this.

Yes, it is not the world which

chooses the leaders of Zimbabwe.

Zimbabwe has a constitution, and

Mnangagwa and his partner know only

too well that they have come into

power via the Bullet, and not the

ballot. The Constitution of Zimbabwe

requires people to come into power

via the ballot.

There will be

elections in 2018, this year.

The

people of Zimbabwe will decide. If

the world wants to be at odds with

the popular will of the people of

Zimbabwe, that is up to them. We can

only be concerned about the Republic

of Zimbabwe, the views of the people

of Zimbabwe, the international

conspiracy that supports a

dictatorship, that has come to power

via the Bullet, is another story. It

will not be experienced by the

Zimbabweans for the first time.

Well, he has promised free and fair

elections in August this year.

You

can't hold free and fair elections.

There has never been a single case

of a government that has come to

power via the Bullet.

You have

talked of conspiracy, but what is it

you want? Because in one of your

tweet since Mugabe lost power, is

said to the new leadership in

Zimbabwe, if you and your lot think

that this will last, then you ain't

seen nothing yet, come rain or

shine. Are you plotting?

No. Zimbabwe, in spite of this coup,

Zeinab, it has come off age. We have

a new constitution and this is

constitution the people have made

for themselves, and it has been

broken, and it has been broken via a

coup, and if people think Zimbabwe

will embrace the coup and change

leaders when they know the factors,

because right now the Cabinet of the

Republic Zimbabwe is by the most

feared people in this country. They

are feared because they are

associated with every atrocity that

has happened. The people of Zimbabwe

cannot be expected to embrace the

most feared individuals.

What do you

want, a return to the status quo, a

return of Robert Mugabe and Grace

Mugabe as his possible successor? Is

that what you would like to see?

Well, every thinking, right-thinking

Zimbabwean would like to see the

return of constitutionalism and

legitimacy in Zimbabwe. It is not

about any individual. It is about

the rule of law. The Constitution of

the country has been subverted. And

there has to be a return to can stew

Cheryl is. And we do not expect the

same people who overthrew the

Constitution to restore it. And

there is a lot that gets set about

Mugabe. I want to put on record that

I for one am very, very happy, proud

of the fact that I served with him

and under him.

And you backed Grace

Mugabe, who is by and large not

admired at all in the country. Are

you happy, do you want to see her

still having chances of getting into

power?

Zeinab, the fact that people,

some people, who may in fact be a

minority, have issues with Doctor

Grace Mugabe does not mean it is a

crime to support her. No one can

sustain that view. It is only the

people who decide who will lead them

through an election. You do not

prevent an election through a

military coup, simply arguing that

you do not like President Mugabe. It

is unprofessional for an army to do

that. The Zimbabwean army has joined

the ranks of banana republics where

military individuals intervene

because they do not like individual,

they lay that individual. They have

reduced our country to a country of

good guys versus bad guys.

Have you

spoken to Grace Mugabe?

As far as I

am concerned... Grace Mugabe was not

only the First Lady, she was also

the secretary for women's affairs in

the ruling party, and that position,

Zeinab, is a very serious position.

And as a leader, a top leader in the

party, she was entitled, one, to

discharge the programme and, two,

have her views as to who should

occupy office. She was entitled to

that. And in doing so...

Have you

spoken to her? She has not been

seen. Have you spoken to her, or for

that matter Robert Mugabe?

No, I

haven't, because of circumstances

that have arisen. I look forward to

doing so, specially speaking with

President Mugabe, who is Zimbabwe's

pastor, and unfortunately we are not

Cubans because our politics have

been influenced by our colonial

relationship with the white settler

economy and with Britain.

You said

you are proud of having served under

Robert Mugabe. You have talked about

his legacy. His legacy, for example,

three quarters of Zimbabwe's

population live on less than five

dollars a day. One quarter under the

age of five experience stunted

growth. The Trade Union Congress in

Zimbabwe says that there is 90%

unemployment. I could go on and on.

You are higher education minister.

The fees for a term at a university

in Zimbabwe is $1000 US per term. So

it has become really something that

only the privileged few can enjoy.

That is just an example of the

legacy that you talk about.

No, that

is not a legacy! That is what you

are calling the legacy. You are

identifying certain challenges that

the Republic Zimbabwe has and you

say that this is the legacy. No!

That is a very strange definition of

legacy. We accept, as we did even as

we were in government, that there

were challenges facing the country.

We know what the reasons for some of

those policy challenges are. But

unfortunately the President put

faith in the people who have now

turned against him and who used his

assignment of responsibility to in

fact plot his downfall.

What you are

part of a government, as I said,

which, this current government says

now, you're part of this systemic

corruption, we have heard press

reports of your lavish home in

Harare.

My home is very modest in

the neighbourhood. There is nothing

extraordinary about it.

It is

described as lavish.

I build that

house when I was not in government.

I worked very hard in order to get

that house built. I am very proud.

You people can create as many

stories as they want. But the truth

of the matter is you will not find a

single case where I took a cent to

build anything for myself almost

family.

Are you talking to an

intermediary about your own future

and whether you can make some kind

of deal on unity from prosecution?

You cannot discuss those issues with

an illegal regime. And an illegal

regime is one that comes into power

against the Constitution in

violation of the Constitution. That

regime may be in effective control

of the territory, but it is an

illegal regime, it is an

illegitimate regime. They kept

saying they want to have elections

in six months. We know that when

Emmerson Mnangagwa went to Morgan 's

house, the opposition leader in

Zimbabwe, they pretended that they

were concerned about his health and

so forth but we know that they

wanted to negotiate with him to

postpone elections for at least

three years. They are afraid of

elections. They do not want to have

free and fair elections let alone

credible elections.

What will you

do, do you want immunity from

prosecution, do you want to go back

to Zimbabwe?

We would... Every

Zimbabwean who cares about the

country would like to see a return

to the constitutionalism. That is

the fundamental. We must have the

rule of law. The army deployed

itself in Zimbabwe when the

Constitution says only that

President can deploy it. When you

have people who have deployed

themselves, taken over all the

institutions of the state and

government, you don't discuss

immunity with them.

But if you were

to be offered it, would you go back,

if you were to be fitted, Woody go

back?

When the offers you immunity,

you would be a full to enter into

what is called a frosty and Bagan?

There are press reports that you

asked the Kenyan authorities for a

bargain and this was refused. Where

would you go?

-- Faustian bargain.

These are falls reports. I want to

tell you what you know. You can't

have people become stateless just

because some individuals have

grabbed power in their home country.

That is not international law. We do

not live in the jungle any more. So

these questions will resolve

themselves in the fullness of time.

So how is Jonathan Moyo going to

live, forever a fugitive on the run?

Where are you going to live, will

you seek asylum?

I want to remind

you when I left Zimbabwe there was

no warrant of arrest against me. I

did not run away from any warrant of

arrest. I ran away, if you want to

use those terms, from a death

warrant, and a lawful attack on my

house by military people -- and an

arm lawful attack on my house by

military people. There is no one in

the world who would sit and say come

and attack me, come and kill me. You

do not implement justice by sending

armed soldiers to attack a civilian

resident. So, I am not bothered

about that question, because at some

point the rule of law and

constitutionalism will speak.

Zimbabweans are already demanding -

they want to know what happened to

President Mugabe. He was humiliated

by the very same people who were

saying they want to restore his

legacy, who were claiming to be

targeting others around him when, in

fact, they were targeting Mugabe and

they did so in a very humiliating

and totally unacceptable way.

Zimbabweans, forget about me,

Zimbabweans in the country are

asking fundamental questions about

what happened, why it happened and

they want to see restoration of the

rule of law, constitutionalism in

Zimbabwe, and they will get it.

Jonathan Moyo, thank you very much

indeed for coming on HARDtalk.