04/02/2013 Inside Out South East

Marks & Spencer in the firing line. A �1 million fine for asbestos

breaches. We reveal the company was warned of problems eight years

earlier. I recommended that all areas where it was reasonable to

assume that you would find it, that it be handed over to a licensed

asbestos removal. The battle of the battlefield of

Hastings. No commander would leave a commanding height like this for a

low of one that was just one mile away. I believe that this is the

hill and this is where the barricade was

And could Kent manage in another great storm like 1953? There will

be inevitably that time when the conditions are such that we have

the perfect storm, if you like. I'm Natalie Graham with untold

stories, closer to home. From all round the South East, this is

Hello, I'm at Battle Abbey in Sussex, famous of course for its

place in British history in 1066 and all that. I'm back here later,

but first up: Managers turned a blind eye to

complaints about asbestos. That was the view of a judge as he imposed a

�1 million fine on one of Britain's best known retailers after health

and safety breaches. Now an Inside Out investigation has

been asking if the problems with asbestos were confined to just one

Marks and Spencer outlet. Chris Jackson reports.

Freda Hughes worked at Marks & Spencer in Folkestone in Kent from

1971 to 1986. During that time there was renovation work involving

asbestos next to the canteen and stock rooms. Her route to go to the

canteen or the toilet was fire where the work was being carried

out on the floor above. In 2007 she developed mesothelioma accounts are

forms -- caused by asbestos. She found out the exposure may have

been at Marks and Spencers. He it was only because she met the local

chemist reading a local newspaper who said the local Marks & Spencer

had a asbestos with it. They paid her an substantial amount of

compensation and she died from the disease in 2007. If you look back

to the 1960s and 1970s and 1980s, it is possible staff were exposed

to asbestos in our stores. Society did not understand the risk as we

do today. Is tragic that our staff and colleagues were affected in

this way. Any illness relating to asbestos is terrible and we did pay

compensation and that is absolutely right. I am clear that society has

learnt and we have learnt and our policies have become industry

leading. Freida is one of a number of people who it is claimed

developed asbestos related disease from working at Marks & Spencer.

Pietter Pipping from Milton Keynes was a warehouse manager from the

1960s to the 1990s. My dad was totally dedicated to my sister and

my mum and me. His working life was Marks & Spencer. Pietter Pipping

suffered from rheumatoid arthritis. In 2010 he was diagnosed with the

asbestos related the diffuse to pleural thickening. He believes he

could have been exposed to asbestos at five stores including Maidenhead,

and Kilburn. He described people working and smashing down ceilings

and taking cladding off walls and columns and all of that was made of

asbestos. Pietter Pipping died of a heart attack in May last year,

before he could pursue his claim for compensation. Marks & Spencer

says it was not responsible in any way for his asbestos exposure. Most

of our major retailers have stores that contain asbestos. Some have

even been fined for breaching the regulations, they include House of

Fraser, the Co-op, Top Shop and John Lu with. Evidence we have of

how M and -- Marks & Spencer and some of its contractors have

handled asbestos in its stores is worrying. It suggests the risks to

customers, staff and contractors may not have been fully

acknowledged. One case in particular is concerning. In 1998

Marks & Spencer refurbishes its flagship store in Marble Arch in

London. William Wallace, health and safety officer is horrified by what

he sees. There were minefields, asbestos mine fields, for the want

of a better expression. You could not guarantee the safety of any

body. He said he flag of the safety problems with little effect so he

began copying pages by reports left by the day and night shifts for the

construction manager. This report from 1998 says that the day shift

has done it again. Cladding has been stripped with a sledge hammer,

asbestos is everywhere. It is the third occasion in a week where they

have had to clear up after a dangerous occurrence. Somebody has

to control the day shift if they don't want the store close to and

the HSE crawling all over you. was shocking. It was scandalous. I

recommended that all the areas where it is reasonable to assume

you would find it that it be handed over to the licence asbestos

removal as. William Wallace rights to the chairman and chief executive

Sir Richard Greenbury and meets senior managers. Marks & Spencer

says in a letter that it takes the matter seriously and is taking

appropriate action so what action did it take? On the face of those

allegations, they sound worrying. Our team at the time, 15 years ago,

thoroughly investigated on the days and thoroughly investigated in

three months afterwards and I have spoken to the individuals and can

find no case to say that any member of staff for any member of the

public was put at risk. Marks & Spencer also says that William

Wallace was mistaken about which materials may have contained

asbestos. We understand that there was not asbestos in the war. We

invited William Wallace in and we met him in a third party location.

His claims were discussed. He went away, we think, happy. At the same

time he was invited to take those to the Health and Safety Executive

and he did not do that so we believe there was no case to answer.

In 2006 William Wallace begins working as a safety contractor for

a contractor up working for Marks & Spencer in Reading. He is horrified

by what he sees. There was so little control by the various

contractors who are being asked to work in the ceiling void so. I

found other reports of incidents that had occurred. It was very

frightening. It was scary really. Following a tip-off the Health and

Safety Executive swooped on the Reading store. Marks & Spencer and

two contractors are prosecuted. Among the witnesses in 2011 were

this worker. He fears being blacklisted by the industry so we

have disguised his identity. He described to the court a girl

stacking the sandwich packs. could see the dust falling down in

the down lighters above the skill. We approached her and asked her to

move somewhere else. The Night Manager responsible for the

refilling of the shelves came and went ballistic at us. She told us

that we should not say whether staff go and sent her back.

gaps in the ceiling were initially filled with hardboard. He it fell

out of the ceiling and narrowly missed a child a buggy by a few

feet. That child would definitely have had asbestos fibres and dust,

as with the mother and anybody else in their area. In court Marks &

Spencer tried to blame the contractors fall of the problems.

We are clear that the implementation of our policy at

Reading was not correct. We will make sure that never happens again.

We checked thoroughly that the policy is being implemented and we

are clear that our policy today is leading standards in the industry

throughout the world. There were fans switched on in the roof void

which meant asbestos could have gone throughout the store. This was

regrettable. The implementation of the policy was not good at Reading

and we are sorry about it and we have taken steps to ensure it never

happens again. Marks & Spencer was found guilty of asbestos breeches

at Reading. It was fined �1 million and ordered to pay �600,000 in

costs. His on a surface dip -- Sir Christopher Harvey Clark said there

was systemic failure by a mob of suspense as management. Their

response had been to turn a blind eye to what was happening because

the asbestos work was already costing the company too much --

Marks & Spencer management. To keep profits as high as possible in

sufficient time and space were allocated to asbestos removal.

Marks & Spencer has never put profit before safety. There was not

a blind eye, our investigations were full and thorough and we had a

good policy which was described as sensible and practical.

Implementation of the policy was not good at Reading and we are

sorry about that and we regret it so we are disappointed by the

judge's comments. The judge said that contractors, staff and

shoppers have a right to be anxious about whether they have breached

asbestos fibres and what effect it might have on their well-being and

future. But Marks & Spencer disagrees. I think, in expert

testimony at Reading, we would say there was no risk to our customers

all our staff. If two of Marks & Spencer's contract is were also

fined. The company was found not guilty of breaches in Plymouth and

Bournemouth. Every year more than 4,000 people died of mesothelioma

and asbestos related lung cancer. It can take decades to develop. The

pace of the disease means that many people never know when or where

they were exposed to asbestos. For Marks & Spencer and the whole of

the retail industry what happened 10 or 20 or 30 years ago may still

have an impact today. Any suggestion that contractors, shop

workers or customers were put at risk deserves to be re-examined.

Chris Jackson reporting. Coming up on Inside Out: It was just as

though a giant had swept everything to one side. Blocks of masonry,

timber bolts from the jetty and parts of the pier. It was absolute

mayhem. I have never seen anything like it.

Now, the recent road protests in East Sussex have re-ignited a local

debate. We all know when the Battle of Hastings took place. 1066 is

probably the most famous date in English history, but the big

question for 2013 is, do we really To the north, King Harold the

Second and his army of English infantrymen. To the south. William,

Duke of Normandy, and his combined army of Norman infantrymen, archers

and cavalry. Whoever wins gets the throne and controls the country.

And as even the most half-hearted history student knows, the result

was a victory to the away team. William was the conqueror and

Harold was killed by an arrow. The invading Normans defeated the

Saxons and the battle is still famous today because it was the

last successful foreign invasion of the British Isles.

And today Battle Abbey stands on the battlefield where the Normans

achieved their famous victory. And a plaque marks the spot where

Harold fell. Or does it? Nearly 950 years after the Norman invasion,

there is a new Battle of Hastings. The battle of the battlefield. With

some people attacking the traditional battle site and saying

that actually the battle was further north at Caldbec Hill.

While further south, others are fighting hard for the Crowhurst

valley to be recognised as the 1066 battleground. While in Battle

itself, the Abbey has staunch supporters who say they can mount a

rock solid defence of the traditional battlefield at Senlac

Hill. So who's right? There's only one way to find out! Actually we're

not going to let them fight about it. Instead, we're going to listen

to all the arguments and then see how Battle Abbey stands up to the

attacks. So, let the intellectual battle commence! First up, John

Grehan and Martin Mace. They believe the battle took place a

mile or so north of Battle Abbey, here on Caldbec Hill. And they've

written a book about it, The Battle Of Hastings 1066 - The

Uncomfortable Truth. No evidence of the battle, such as

bones or arrowheads, has ever been found at the traditional battle

site. But one thing you probably can find in these grounds is

evidence of battle re-enactments. And when John and Martin came to

watch one of these, they felt that what they were seeing didn't tally

too well with what they'd read about the battle.

The principle Norman chronicler of the battle, William of Poitiers,

said the Normans, despite the difficulty they faced and the

steepness and severity of the slope, they still managed to overcome the

English. And when we went to the re-enactment we didn't find such a

steep slope. We found that the re- enactment cavalry could gallop

around quite happily. And we looked at each other and said, something's

wrong here. Caldbec Hill is one of steepest

hills in the area. An excellent vantage point and meeting place, so

a logical spot for Harold to gather his troops. And since the onus was

on the Normans to attack, the argument goes that Harold would

have stayed here and let the invaders come to him.

It is the best position around defensively. And no commander would

leave a commanding height like this for a far inferior one just a mile

away. The argument does seem to make

sense. But Nick Austin doesn't agree with it. Nick is author of

Secrets of the Norman Invasion. And he says if you're looking for the

site of the Battle of Hastings, you need to leave Battle and head south

to the Crowhurst valley. So Nick, the sea's behind us and you believe

that William the Conqueror and his troops came up to this spot here?

Yeah, this is the field I believe William camped in. It's a fantastic

defence. It drops off 50 metres on each side of the field, has been

levelled on the top and I believe there was a fort here originally

because we've got documentary evidence that says William camped

where forts previously existed. In 1066, Hastings was a peninsula,

and Nick believes that the Normans could have landed here with ease.

And that they camped on this hill for two weeks before the battle.

While Harold mustered his forces here, on the hill to the north of

the valley, facing south, towards Hastings.

All of my evidence is based upon all of the documents written within

180 years of the battle of Hastings. Evidence that includes the original

Abbey foundations which the Chronicle of Battle Abbey says was

built low down on the west side of the ridge exactly in the middle of

this valley at a place called Hurst. Now the Normans called it Hurst,

but we know the Saxons called it Crurst. And the fact they wrote it

down incorrectly does not mean they didn't get the description right.

And in the middle of this valley are the foundations of that very

abbey. And that is the proof that the Battle of Hastings took place

there. Nick showed me some of the, as yet,

unidentified items that have been found in the valley. And he gave me

a guided tour of the ruin he believes is the original abbey.

This section here is almost certainly the basis of a Norman

arch. So we could have been effectively in the undercroft of

the Battle Abbey. And next to it you've got a two storey buttress.

And we've got other buttresses round here. Now two storey stone

buildings, buttresses, what does it all say? It says ecclesiastical

building. And it couldn't be anything else in your view? I don't

think it could possibly be anything else, no. But historian Dr Marc

Morris is having none of it. He says William the Conqueror did

build an abbey on the battle site, but the ruin in Crowhurst isn't it.

Marc says that the earliest sources of information about the battle are

the ones to trust, and that they provide more than adequate proof

that the huge abbey at Battle is the place where the battle happened.

I've got a chronicle written by a historian called William of

Marmsbury. And he says, writing in the 1120s, remember, the other

monestry he built at Hastings in honour of St Martin, and it is

called Battle Abbey. Because the principle church is to be seen on

the very spot where, according to tradition, among the piled heaps of

corpses Harold was found. But we don't have to settle for that. We

can push it back to the time of William the Conqueror himself, if

we look at the Anglo Saxon Chronicle. If we look up William's

obituary in the year 1087. It says, on the very spot where God granted

him the conquest of England he caused a great abbey to be built.

And do you know what, I even checked the old English original,

On tham ilken stiodur, on the self- same spot, it says. Now this is a

voice, a credible English voice from the time of William the

Conqueror himself. So forget it, if anyone says to you this is a made

up tradition that only originates a hundred years after the event, it's

there in the time of William the Conqueror himself. And it's as good

as evidence as you can get. This is what annoys me about this. There

isn't a debate here. There is an academic consensus, it's about as

certain as we can be. Often with battlefields we can't say where

they are, its very difficult to locate them. Here we have

contemporary voices telling us that Harold died on that spot and that

was where the abbey was built. But what about the fact that not a

single arrow or Norman helmet has ever been found at the abbey site

of Senlac Hill? Julian Humphrys is from The Battlefields Trust, a

charity that works to preserve and interpret our historic battlefields.

Does he think it's odd that no artefacts have been recovered from

the most important battle site in our history?

I don't think we should actually expect to find too much

archaeological evidence. This is a long time ago, there's a clearing

up after the battle, things will decay. And if we do find things,

how do we know they relate specifically to the fighting, they

might have been dropped on the retreat or it might have been

something completely different connected with people who lived in

the area over the next 500 years. Does it really matter exactly where

Harold lost his life? What is certain, in my opinion anyway is

that to go and stand on the spot where you know something happened

in the past is a very inspiring thing to do. It's a tangible link

with something that happened many years ago and I think we shouldn't

underestimate that. Until someone comes up with watertight evidence

to the contrary, this is the spot where Harold fell. And it's where I

caught up with Roy Porter, Battle Abbey curator for English Heritage

for his take on the battle for the battlefield of Hastings. We

encourage people exploring the history around them. But so far we

have yet to see any evidence which persuades us that we need to revise

our view of what happened on this site in October 1066.

So there's no rebuilding of the Now, 60 years ago, the North Sea

erupted in one of the worst natural disasters in recorded history,

claiming more than 2,000 lives. Miraculously, no lives were lost

here. Though businesses and homes were devastated right round the

Kent coast. Robin Gibson talked to the people affected at the time and

examines whether such a flood could It was the time before anyone had

talked about climate change or global warming. In fact they were

still talking about the war and rationing when this happened.

People were going up to their bedroom window. Can you believe

that. It was 1953. What did it all mean to people in Whitstable today?

It would be frightening. It is a horrible. Do people still remember

which houses were flooded? We still have got major damp because of it.

Black and white images consigned to history, years of advances in

forecasting and flood defences have placed this as a once in 200 year

event. But as everyone who lives in a flood risk area knows from their

insurance premiums, experts can be brutally frank. It will happen

again, I am afraid it is inevitable. But we can do our best to protect

as many people as we can in an event of a reoccurrence. Inevitably

there will be a time when conditions are such that we have

the Perfect Storm. That day was January 31st, when nature brewed up

a freakish cocktail. High spring tides fuelled by an extreme low

pressure front. Because it is low pressure it allows the sea to lift.

It creates about three metres of lift. So as it hit the coast the

sea was three metres higher than normal. On top of that there was an

extremely strong north wind. Something like a force eight or

even forced 10. That created these huge waves. It looks like the

biggest sandcastle in the world and in a way these are battlements in a

centuries old war between the land and the sea. Here in Margate to

this day they are preparing for the worst that the sea can offer. You

have to put the 1953 flood in perspective. Kent miraculously did

not share in the loss of life. 1800 died in Holland, hundreds in

Britain, notably on Connor the island. But memories of what did

happen here have not been forgotten. Imagine the power of waves which

felled a lighthouse built to withstand them. As a boy, Nick

Tomlinson have watched it happen. He expected something to happen

because it was loose and over it went. They just crumbled. It slowly

came down. These pictures filmed by a North Kent farmer captured the

feeling of the sea surge which came in the light. In those days some

places had no sea wall at all. Elsewhere the water demolished

ancient defences. Its Arup was 10 years old then. She's still living

in the same house next to Whitstable beach. We opened the

windows so that the tide would not break the glass. And we just sat

and waited. It was silent, just waiting. People did not get too

close but these photographs are on show at Daniel Whyte used him

capture the energy and the ferocity of the waves. There were taken by

keen amateur photographer. I stood as close as I could without falling

over. There were pebbles and the beach on the road. And I got that

shot of the sea coming over the lamp-post. It was as though a giant

had just swept everything to one side. Blocks of masonry, timber

from the jetty. It was mayhem. I have never seen anything like it.

It is an uncomfortable thought that the scenes filmed during and after

the flood with streets deluged and animals dead in the fields could be

repeated. But there is good news. Decades of investment in protecting

the coast began as soon as the floods receded. This is the 3.5

miles sea wall protecting farm land. We do regular maintenance

throughout the year on the wall. On average we move 30,000 tons of

shingle. That absorbs the energy of the waves and by the time it hits

the wall the energy has been dissipated. And one abiding lesson

from the 1950s is that no one should again have to wait and hope

like Sarah's family 60 years ago. Now we have really accurate

modelling of the coastline and sea surges and tidal conditions. So 48

hours out we can start thinking about what the events are going to

be. Government-funded research and investment in flood defences has

made us more ready and better protected. But in the post climate

change world it has only confirmed what seaside communities have

always known - in a showdown between man and the sea there is

only one winner. Now, if you want any more

information on tonight's show, you can visit our local Kent or Sussex

websites. And you can even watch the whole show again by clicking on

our iPlayer at bbc.co.uk/insideout. Coming up next week the Medway

family who ended up over �400,000 in debt.

He must have been under immense pressure. It is horrible. I have

lost six years of my life through worried and I cannot see any end in

sight. The big freeze of 1963 and Kent in Sussex. By the end of

January the frozen water stretched to 0.5 miles out to sea and Margate