05/09/2012 Newsnight Scotland

more holistic effort to deal with all of these issues, that is my

question? Thank you very much. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland:

Shuffling the pack. Yesterday it was David Cameron, today Alex

Salmond changed his team, ready for the independence campaign. We'll

have the first interview with the newly minted Minister for

Independence, Nicola Sturgeon. Good evening. The Westminster

reshuffle was widely trailed, took two days and was constrained by

coalition partners and ministerial refusals. In contrast Alex Salmond

sprung a surprise, decisive re- ordering of his ministers. Along

with the recently announced board of Yes Scotland and the movement of

senior advisor Kevin Pringle from the government to the party, it

looks like the First Minister has put in place his team to fight the

referendum campaign. But will it be enough to shift the stubborn

scepticism about independence in the opinion polls? Here's David

Allison with the details. A day after David Cameron, it was

the turn of Alex Salmond to reshuffle his ministers, his first

major shake-up since taking office in 2007. I am in the fortunate

position and a contrast to the Prime Minister that I have a range

of talented people and a limited number of posts to put them in that

I am very happy with the team I have got to take Scotland forward.

Familiar faces around the cabinet table include Mike Russell in

education who stays in place but there are significant changes.

Nicola Sturgeon becomes infrastructure and capital spending

Secretary, plus oversight of the upcoming referendum. In a direct

swap Alex Neil needs infrastructure to take over as Health Secretary.

The Cabinet Secretary for cabinet business is now responsible for

negotiating with the use cake government. He has resigned for

personal reasons and is not being replaced. Bryan Adams is replaced

with Joe Fitzpatrick and in the environment Stewart Stevenson makes

wake. Two new posts have been created. We have Scotland's first

Asian minister for external affairs. And then there are is a new

Minister for Housing and Welfare. This means that Alex Neil is in

charge of the NHS and hospitals like this one. Nicola Sturgeon is

in charge of infrastructure including big projects like the

rebuild at this hospital. She is also in charge of making sure that

construction of the new Forth crossing remains on course. The

Scottish parliament building demonstrated how infrastructure can

go wrong in terms of budget and a lay. Two years out from the

independence referendum there she is also in charge of, the SNP can

afford no slip-ups on delivery of high-profile products. Today it

takes a senior minister away from health when there are huge

challenges there and jobs being lost and it puts her to task on the

constitution. At the same time the really important job around the

economy has become a part-time job that she will do in the time left

over. That is a very strong signal that the first priority is the

referendum and not the things that matter to people like jobs and

services. She has served as Health Secretary twice as long as anybody

else in history. It is only right and proper to -- only right and

proper that she gets the opportunity to display her

formidable skills in terms of economic recovery. Alex Neil takes

over the contentious plans to allow same-sex marriage, supported and

opposed with passion from both sides. There have been some other

significant moves in the last few days. Kevin Pringle, the spin

doctor is moving from a government role to a party one, presumably to

preach him up from the tight constraints of being a special

adviser as the referendum campaign gets fully under way. The SNP's

tectonic plates are being moved into place.

Earlier I spoke to the new Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure and

capital spending, Nicola Sturgeon, I asked her if she expects to lead

the referendum campaign all the way to 2014.

That of course is a matter for the first minister. I am taking this

job on today with a clear determination, working with the

First Minister and other colleagues to lead on matters to do with the

referendum right from now, through to hopefully winning the referendum

in 2014. I'd like to congratulate you but I am not sure you have been

promoted. I consider it very very exciting as an opportunity. Say you

think you have been promoted? don't tend to think of things in

these terms and I leave it to you media commentators to decide who is

up and there is down but what I have been given our exciting new

responsibilities to play a key part in the government's work around

economic recovery which is of vital importance and is the key priority

set out in the programme for government outlined by the first

minister yesterday. Secondly to lead on the preparations for the

referendum and there is a very key link between the two because

although we do everything we can at the moment to get our economy

growing we need the power of independence to really get our

economy growing to create jobs and make Scotland a more prosperous and

fairer society. There will be a meeting shortly between the First

Minister and the Prime Minister about the referendum. There will be

a meeting within the next few weeks. I am meeting the Scotland office

tomorrow morning and I will certainly hope to have a

constructive discussion where we can make progress on resolving the

process issues so we can get on to what the people of Scotland want, a

sub-standard debate about the developments -- benefits of

independence. Coming a clarity of what needs to be revolved --

resolve. There is agreement that 16-year-old can take part? I will

not get on today's discussions on television. Our position... Sorry,

I thought that had been agreed. am not going to get into that

particular detail. We are continuing these discussions the

way we have been conducting them over the summer. The principal

position of the Scottish government is that I hope we can make progress

on the basis of this principle which is that we want to make

progress and resolve these issues but we must ensure that the

referendum is built here in Scotland and that is a key

principle and one that would enjoy support amongst the majority of

people in Scotland. If we can agree that them we can move on and agree

the other issues in fairly short order and there we can have that

very exciting debate about why it would be better for Scotland and

for people in Scotland if we were independent with all the power that

comes with that. If you think this can be resolved in short order, as

you put it, presumably you now accept there will be a single

question referendum for independence. We continue the

discussions on all of these matters. Clearly there is another very

important factor here and that is the results of the Scottish

government consultation which will also be published in the next few

weeks. We have 26,000 responses to that consultation and we're taking

care to independently and analyse those responses and I hope this

will be resolved quickly. It must be resolved on the basis of a point

of principle that it is not for Westminster to dictate the terms of

the Scottish referendum. We must have a referendum that is there,

legal and decisive and is in the interests of the people of Scotland

to vote in a referendum. I am still not clear about the one or to

question a thing. What other principles you are outlining? If he

was a new independent review of the consultation and says that people,

some people, a lot of people, how many people want a two-question

referendum? The principle is that we need to get to a referendum that

is in the interest of the people of Scotland. We cannot conduct this

discussion on the basis of what might be advantageous or in the

tactical interest of any one political party. This issue is too

important for that. I am a nationalist politician. I have

believed for my entire adult life that Scotland would be better off

as an independent Scotland but a lot of people in the country take a

different view. There are those who oppose independence and there are

also people were more power was short of independence. Yes, we will

resolve these matters over the next few weeks but we must decided on

the basis of what is best for Scotland. I am simply asking you

what your own opinion is. Are you saying that a majority of people

say they want a two-question referendum so that it will be...

Remember, we had a similar discussion when I published the

results of the same-sex marriage consultation. A Yes, and you

ignored it. I made the important point to use them and perhaps you

should listen to it again. Consultations are very important.

They are not referendums but they are an important factor to take

into account in coming to a balanced decision about what is in

the overall interest in our judgment of the people of Scotland.

The important principle I am laying out is one I hope that all parties

and all politicians can subscribe to whatever the views of

independence, its that narrow party interest is not what should govern

the decisions about Scotland's referendum and that is the spirit I

were taking to the Scotland office tomorrow and I hope he will bring

that spirit to. This consultation, when you get round to analysing a...

I am in the process of analysing it. Can we have assurances that you

will strip out answers from outside Scotland, answers on postcards...

There will be complete transparency. Just as you did with a gay marriage

one. Of course! There will be transparency round the presentation.

We have had 26,000 responses to this consultation and it has been a

important consultation that has generated a lot of interest. You're

right, just as we took care to do with the same-sex marriage

consultation, we will ensure that the results are let out openly...

In the same way, with things stripped out? With the same

explanation around all the different categories of responses

we have been given another consultations. We are in the

business of being open, honest and transparent a rabble of this. It is

up to people of that Scotland to decide the question of independence

and I look forward to arguing that case but Scotland will take the

decision. A lot of the stuff you are saying risk lies on

organisations over which you have no control like the British

government. When you say that Scotland will have a representative

on the monetary policy of the Bank of England and they will act as the

lender of last resort for Scotland, were you before referendums enter

into negotiations with the British government and other people of

Scotland what the answers are because it seems reasonable that

the people of Scotland should know what they are voting about? We have

already said many times and I will say it again here that we will lay

this all out in the White Paper. would make a sick with other

organisations? I am happy to any Decio with all kinds of

organisation before the referendum of what you must remember tarmac I

will tell the people of Scotland what I think the benefits of

independence are but I hope you put that question at John next

opportunity to a representative of the UK Government because the UK

government is not impartial in this debate. UK government ministers

have a vested interest in giving answers that they think... I am

sorry, we must bring this to a close. Her have you just given us

authority to ask the British government to hold negotiations

with you on some of these issues and you will publicise the results?

No, that is not what I did as you well know. The point I was making

is that the UK government is not an impartial a participant in this.

They have a vested interest in giving answers that they think

would be most unhelpful and the most scary that they believe they

can make them. We will be doing this properly and making the case

and we will be making responsible preparations for Scotland becoming

an independent country and I am looking forward to taking a lead in

To be continued and continued and continued. Thank you.

I am joined now in the studio by the Political Editor of the

Scotsman, Eddie Barnes, and from Edinburgh by The Herald's Political

Commentator, Iain Macwhirter. There are suggestions that the Government

are fairly near to agreement. Do you buy that? There is a fair

amount of momentum building up. You spoke about Kevin Pringle, one of

Alex Salmond's key advisers, moving over to the SNP to look after

strategy and communications. There is momentum building up, so that

build an expectation that we are moving towards... They are

gathering for the campaign. At the same time, there has not been a

movement on the pro-union side when it comes to formulating some kind

of people max position. -- some kind of devolution max position.

Who knows what David Cameron might do? He might suddenly decide he is

going to organise his referendum himself, which I suspect would not

be the worst thing for the SNP campaign. I feel we are moving

towards a yes vote. David Cameron has insisted that he will only

accept a referendum on section 30, one that gives the Scottish

Parliament the constitutional right took hold a referendum and he will

only do that if there is a single question. It is widely assumed that

the pressure from what is called civic Scotland to come up with this

alternative for independence light or a maximum devolution has been

rather stillborn. It has not add here. There is not an obvious

second question. This has to be decided in a matter of weeks. There

has been a referendum Bill tabled with no guarantee it will ever

happen. There was a widespread view that as well as consideration for

civic Scotland, the second question was the get out of jail cause for

the SNP. There was a theory that this was Alex Salmond having it

both ways. So that he will win even if he loses. Am not sure that is

entirely true. He certainly was sincere when he was indicating that

there would be a place for maximum devolution on the ballot paper. But

over the years he has always been quite plain that his preference is

for there to be one question. Many people, including an -- including

Nicola Sturgeon, also thought a single question was the way to go.

We know that the vast majority of Scots would vote for a parliament

with more powers. Does this mean we can conclusively say there will be

a referendum? Has the wiggle room vanished? It is closing. It has

entered a parliamentary process now and the bill will be tabled. Four

it suddenly now to be delayed through a legal process in the

courts, that is still an option, but for that to happen now would

stretch credulity. It has moved on so much from January and the issues

have been tested about maximum devolution. It would be

extraordinary for it not to go ahead now. What do they do next? I

know there has been all sorts of kerfuffle about alleged support for

independence going down in the polls, but the basic point has been

much the same for about 20 years. Don't they have to do something

that is again changer? This is what he is trying to do. This is the a

team and the phoney war is over. People who thought that Alex

Salmond might be becoming a less enthusiastic of holding a

referendum, this is the answer. This is Nicola Sturgeon who will be

the face of the referendum campaign. She will be leading from the front,

as you heard earlier. Do you think having a new personnel can be again

danger in itself? Desire have to be a new argument in policy?

Absolutely. Is this question of 40% that everyone discusses. We know

that 30% will fought for independence. 30% will definitely

not fought for it. There is 40% in the middle and they have to be

persuaded. The SNP will subtly changed idea of independence, so it

can incorporate the idea of a Social Union. In other words, we

won't be leaving the United Kingdom, we will be joining an United

Kingdom. After independence, people in Scotland could still call

themselves British. This is subtly changing the argument to make it

easier for people who are not natural nationalists do vote for

independence. However, the more you stress the continuity, the pound,

the Queen, the more you undermine the case for withdrawing completely

from Westminster. People will say that if we are to be part of a new

Social Union in the UK, why should we give up the chance of having

political representation at a heart of that union, which would be in

London? No doubt there will be plenty more opportunities to