31/01/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, that was the week but was, wasn't it?

Questioned agreed, cash agreed. We to be the next step in the

referendum debate? As Beckham joins parish, what about poor old

Scottish football? We speak to this man's predecessor on how we can

improve the game here. Good evening. It is being another one of those

weeks when you don't know what the will be historic or not. The Yes

and No campaigns have accepted the question and the funding levels. In

recent weeks, who doubted they would? We have had another round of

promises that positive campaigning A lot of fuss about the very few

words. Some commentators are suggesting that the SNP government

day the questioned something to step out. As the answer is yes or

no, it may be... It is quite clear The campaign spending limits are

only likely to become controversial in future if and when one side or

in future if and when one side or the other wants to disregard the

the other wants to disregard the spirit of fairness. We accept that

the nationalists are going to spend more than we can. But there is a

question of principle. You cannot pick and choose. But at least there

is a consistency here about the level of debate. Everyone says that

they were but see a serious debate in thawed by hard facts and

information. We have been asked how we would conduct the debate in

Scotland. We will conduct the debate in a positive manner. If the

no campaign can match their commitment... People want

information so that people can make a judgment on what an independent

Scotland would that light. Isn't it the case that all we know is that

it will be a land where you are not allowed to disagree with Alex

We will know next month how long vista Bay has to run. What happens

the day after the boat, in spite of the wishes of the Electoral

Commission, may not be known until it happens.

I am joined by arguing Crawford and People they're not just talking

about information, but either struck about the findings of the

commission. People were saying that they did not want to know about the

process. They wanted to note how to assess the cases for and against

independence. They wanted an independent source of information.

Are people being unrealistic to expect that? No, I think that

people do want information, and we have had a lot of hyperbole, and a

lot of it is difficult. The UK, we already know what the UK is, but I

think what people are looking for, perhaps it is a criticism of the

media. Perhaps people think we are not d'etat. That has to be the

media's role. We have to be explaining what is happening. The

fact is that it is not going to come, for example, the SNP will

publish a White Paper. Some people would say it is utterly tosh.

not as if someone - but something is going to be published and that

is the information. You are pre- empting exactly what you think, got

the UK argument would be. I am sure that the SNP would not be happy of

your appraisal. But I think that it will be the major's role in best.

It is difficult to say he could be a -- end independent assessor. He

is going to decide they are independent? Will be the Scottish

government or the UK government? Let's just get on with a debate. I

think the public does once the information. I was not suggesting

the White Paper would be allowed a tosh. Parties would say it it would

be a load of tosh. This idea of independence. I am not sure if it

will work as an been -- independent source of information went

something like that. Indeed, and this is a political argument and

political scientists talk about deliberative democracy when you get

the best outcome after teasing out the best arguments. That is the

rational due in which everyone's arguments are treated equally. I do

not think we are going to get that, but ultimately, this is going to be

a political argument, and statistics from academic

researchers suggest that it is difficult to get anything but is

completely unbiased. I am just curious. Obviously, you are prone

independents, and clearly it is not doing terribly well in the polls at

the moment. Blair Jenkins was here last night, and I'm sure he

fervently believes it will improve, but standing back, at what point

would you be worried if there is not some sort of player move

towards the direction of independence? I am sure that some

of the policy is interesting, but one of the things you could say is

the back -- disappointment for the yes campaign but also an

opportunity, one of the things that the Electoral Commission said in

regards of independence is that... On the other hand, you could say

that is no pot -- opportunity. I am a... People on your side of the

argument, six months ago, the same amount of people agreed. A I don't

have a baby in mind. But there are other things in the social

attitudes survey they got some publicity last week. If you say to

people, do you want the Scottish Parliament to have all of the

powers, that comes out as the most popular option, but... It is about

the phrasing of a question on the ballot paper. You must be expecting

some shift on that. OK. On the other side of the argument, there

is a danger of complacency. In the last week, we have had Kevin

McKenna and another well-known commentator say they do not have a

nationalist bone in their body and they will vote yes. It might not

directly involved the opinion polls, but if the media and the chattering

classes take that view, it filters down. That must be a worry for the

No campaign. A I think the no campaign a very well aware of the

dangers of complacency. Anyone who was into Scotland two years ago and

saw how the Scottish National Party used this hugely impressive PR

machine that they have, it is very smooth and professional, they came

from behind in the opinion polls in the Scottish election, and they

caught Scottish Labour on the hop, because they were the favourites

going into it. We have seen that happen once. I think the yes

campaign but think -- I think the no campaign will not be complacent.

Some of the chattering classes are going in an unexpected direction.

It may not have an effect in the opinion polls, but it may have a

bad effect on your side of the argument. Depends on what you think

it is a good argument or a bad bargain and. Regardless of what

members of the chattering classes might be in their flag to, the UK

argument think they have a strong argument. I think he would get the

chattering classes on both sides. We will have to leave that there,

I'm afraid. Plenty both very much As the most glamourous football in

the world jetted into the most glamourous city in the world, some

of the most -- less glamourous people in the world were in Glasgow.

It is a stark illustration of the gap in the modern football game.

Can Scotland, which helped give to the sport to the world and whose

deeply -- whose culture remains deeply embedded in it, helped to

rescue it? And if not, what would it mean for some of our famous

Id was the day when two of the biggest and wealthiest Brands in

football joined forces. David Beckham signed for Paris St-Germain.

He says it is not about money and will be giving his earnings to

charity. If only Scottish football had cash to give away. This was the

scene last night - miserable weather matched by some pretty

miserable attendances. But it is not that we have fallen out of love

with the beautiful game itself. For about 200,000 people stayed up to

watch the Games on TV. So how can Scottish football reconnect the

game with the fans and revive its fortunes? What Scottish football

has to do, because it has no other choice unless a bunch of sugar

daddies come into the game, which is not going to happen, is that

clubs will have to operate within their means. That means reduced

cost, reduced Major's four players -- wages for players, and this will

continue each year for years to come. We may well end up with part-

time football. Enter the hall the grail of a league reconstruction,

being discussed again today. Make the league more competitive and the

fans, and their money, will return, say supporters. According to four

First Minister Henry McLeish, who produced a review of football's

future, it is part of the solution but not the whole is addition.

game in its current form is not sustainable. I think we can inject

competition, inject more excitement for the fans and spectators. If we

can improve the product on the pitch, all of that will help to

rebuild the club game but this is an enormous challenge. It will not

be easy. The lack of finance is a huge problem but I believe

sincerely that if we are seen by outside investors helping ourselves

to improve the game, we will attract more finance. This is

Aberdeen. So, is it essentially back to the old days? Again

grounded in the community, financed by gate money? The Scottish League,

however configured, will never compete with the TV billions

sloshing about south of the border. But what about the Scottish clubs

who think of themselves as bigger than most clubs in the cash rich

English Premiership? Rangers, even on the way back up from the lowest,

and Celtic, see themselves as among the top brands in Europe. But how

do they maintain their status? Do they just accept that they remain

big fish in a small pond? It does not matter if they reach an

agreement with the Premier League or the championship or the

conference. These leagues are all members of a football family of he

way that and the Firth. The people in those organisations. It. -- UEFA

But it is not just Celtic and Rangers who may benefit from a

change in the rules to allow cross- border competition, like an

Atlantic League. Should they all other city clubs have a fan base

which can compete with the very beast the likes of Wigan and

Southampton. For them to do so requires a change of rule. Although

there are some straws in the wind, it looks as though Scots clubs will

be playing each other for some time yet.

I am joined by it Roger Mitchell, who was the first chief-executive

of the Scottish Premier League. You have been talking recently about

how you think this complicated restructuring thing is all very

well but does not really address the idea that the big clubs in

Scotland need to play in a different environment. What do you

mean? No matter how much you can improve the revenues by 10 or 20%,

the fact that the huge financial magnet down south cannot be

approached will continue to suck all the talent that we ever managed

to develop immediately. You are seeing players go into the

Premiership and the other leaves much earlier than they ever did.

When I was leading the league, we spent a lot of time on some of the

things you talk about earlier - the Atlantic League and other ideas

like bringing the Scottish and English game into the same

marketplace. That is what the ultimate answer has to be. Do you

mean that some of the clubs in Scotland could play, for example,

in the English Premier League? think we need to get away from

thinking that Celtic and Rangers are the Premiership. The other ones

that can aspire are being restrained from competing because

they are restricted to the revenues from a very small market of 5

million people. There so, are you suggesting a British league? To us

try and amalgamate the whole thing. So not as the top clubs but the

whole structure of the leagues in England and the leagues in

Scotland? Become UK leagues. So for park might be playing... It becomes

a regionalised because people might suggest for far against Walsall -

who cares? Aberdeen against Southampton, absolutely. People

tend to think it means Celtic and Rangers getting out. The fact is

that this map was set in train when they changed the Champions' League

and it was always going to end this way. If anybody is just waking up

now and wondering what has happened to our game, they are wrong because

it was clear to my organisation back then. The last day of the

transfer window. I don't think it has happened by one of the deals

that Celtic were going to make was that Norwich were trying to buy one

of bed best buys. With no disrespect to Delia Smith, Norwich

and Celtic are not... I agree with you. But they have an expectation

they can come in and pinch Celtic's players. It is not a Celtic and

Norwich. Aberdeen is one of the richest towns and cities in the UK

and it has got the oil industry and could aspire to be one of the top

clubs, the way it was in the 1980s. But it cannot do it because its

trade is restrained by having to rely solely on a market of 5

million when its competitors have a market of 60 million. That would

mean changes and the barrier has always been Uefa. There has been

talk recently of a Russian Federation League involving the

Ukraine. There has even been talk of Yugoslavia reforming, at least

in a footballing sense. Do you think UEFA is suffering? The whole

power structure is based on national geography so they will not

do it willingly. If they were to approve the Russian and Ukraine

thing, that would surprise you? that there is also the president of

Wales and England. I think it needs to be pushed much harder and I have

always had an issue with Scottish football, that it seems to accept

its lot. This idea of England is poppycock, let's get back to our

little game on Saturday and enjoy it. But you need to push for this

and it may not happen this year or next year but it is the only way

out. One of the things you said surprised to about the league

reconstruction was that Celtic were showing magnanimity in distributing

TV revenue. Do you think that as a signal that Celtic are accepting

their lot and think their interests are the interests of Scottish

football? I think this reconstruction is about securing

the Rangers TV rights in one organisation that can then

negotiate from strength, rather than have the competition of two

organisations dealing with ESPN or Sky. So you think they are pressing

for what you want? They should be. They have not. When I was there, we

tried but in the last 10 years, I have seen no efforts. I just do not

understand why. It seems to be an acceptance of an eventual a

relevance. What, realistically, do you think they should be doing?

They should be pushing and making a nuisance of themselves, saying that

it is a restraint of trade. Just make yourself a fly in the ointment,

a pain in the neck, because they may decide to take notice. If we