13/02/2013 Newsnight Scotland

control they said they had. Thank Tonight on Newsnight Scotland. A

fillip for the "Yes" campaign. The latest poll shows some progress

after months of reverses. But it's also a fillip for this woman.

Nicola Sturgeon is not only more popular than Alistair Darling - the

leader of the Unionist campaign - she's also more popular than her

own boss, Alex Salmond. Also this evening: For these are my

mountains - but possibly for not much longer. After the latest death

on the hills we discuss whether the time has come to restrict access to

some of Scotland's best-loved but Good evening. In politics, as in

business, when things go wrong, one of the guiding maxims of leadership

is "deputy heads must roll". But you'll be unlikely to hear that

from the lips of Alex Salmond. He appreciates his deputy. After all,

he's put Nicola Sturgeon in charge of his government's plans for the

referendum - one of the first tasks of which was to, well, clarify the

fact that he hadn't sought legal advice about an independent

Scotland's membership of the European Union. But while the

prominence being given to the Deputy First Minister may reflect

her strengths, could it also reflect the First Minister's

weaknesses? Here's Suzanne Allen. From fresh-faced solicitor to MSP

to Deputy First Minister, the rise of Nicola Sturgeon has been steady

and unsurprising. Those who know her say she is tenacious, thorough

and likeable. Are we seeing her turn into a soft centre? We can a

reveal the names of the 100 women who have made it onto the first

panel. This was readier 4's Woman's Today, a poll shows she is

outscoring not only the better to get the campaign leader Alastair

Darling but crucially, her own boss, Alex Salmond. The level of

satisfaction with both Nicola Sturgeon and an excellent are the

same. 50% of Scots tell us they are happy with both of them. More

people seem to beat is dissatisfied with Alex Salmond then they are

They're always had a good working relationship. Maybe just as well,

having been put in charge of the referendum brief, it was left to

her to clear up the mess about whether legal advice had been

sought on EU membership. Scottish government has previously

cited authority past and present... Order! In support a bid to view

that an independent Scotland will continue in membership of the

European Union but has not sought legal advice. However... So will

Alex Salmond be worried she has overtaken him in the polls? And not

in the slightest, he is still the head honcho in the campaign and

Nicola is an able deputy. The fact she is playing well the public is

nothing but good for the SNP. They are just concerned with showing the

people they can run the country competently, which they are doing

reasonably well according to these a distraction ratings, and

independence. Marie Ritchie is not surprised she is where she is. She

has a persuasive woman. -- she is a persuasive woman. She is a good

speaker, parade difficult to trip up. I cannot recall Nicola Sturgeon

been tripped up by an awkward question by anybody. She has

proving herself in the past by winning Governor of all places.

That was an extraordinary feat for a young woman from the SNP to be

able to go into a place, hard, Oban Glasgow constituency and take more

than half of the vote, 54% she one in that -- she won in that

constituency. When she stepped down after five years as health minister,

it was acknowledged at she had done a good job. It was only when she

had left the post that her achievements started being

questioned. Were she misleading Parliament or she just incompetent

and not on top of her job? Perhaps it attacks on her past record

reflect opposition of nervousness about her current role. Now she is

a polished, well turned out before. I know it is not fashionable to

talk about appearance, but she looks much better and exudes

confidence which he didn't have 20 years ago. She is much,, less

likely to look... She looks like a woman who is in charge of her brief

and knows what she is about. time for succession is not now.

Alex Salmond has walked away from the leadership before, but there is

no chance he would do that before the referendum. When he does go, it

is to be good see anybody better placed to take over the job than

the current to bitty. -- it is Joining me now from Edinburgh is

Margo Macdonald - and erstwhile SNP colleague of Nicola Sturgeon, who,

of course, memorably won the Govan seat for the nationalists in 1973

when Ms Sturgeon was just three years old. I said erstwhile! Higher

in Surrey, I missed that! -- IM sorry. I'm also joined here in

Glasgow by Moray Macdonald, a former Conservative party adviser,

who's now the Managing Director of Webber Shandwick. Nicola Sturgeon,

was are you saying that Alex Salmond is taking more of a subdued

role now? I think he has to come up the opinion poll figures we are

seeing it in today's poll demonstrate what I think the SNP

have known for a long time, Nicola Sturgeon's popularity is rising and

Alex Salmond is falling dramatically. He used to have a

positive rating of about plus 35 and he is now only at plus seven.

That is causing him a problem. They know that he is much easier to

attack for the opposition, there is a feeling in some quarters that the

SNP have taken their eye of the ball in government. Before the last

election they were recognised as the party that knew how to govern

Scotland. They're still doing quite fall in poll ratings for how you

would vote in an election. They are doing quite well, but he is not

doing well, he is below the net positive rating of Johann Lamont.

That is unbelievable considering the amount of airtime he get. The

other problem around Alex summoned his he is not popular with women.

The Independent's argument is definitely not popular with women.

About 61% of women would say no in an independence referendum today,

much higher than the average population. So there is a problem

there. It is not just about him, it is partly about questions cover

women are more likely to be against the idea of separation. And I think

also the aggressive danger of the campaign is probably not going

across well. You cannot argue with me calling you your name! I love

him to bits. Before he came on Kabyle ask Bicester, to what did

she attributes the change in the polls, she said, very easy. Michael

Moore, Michael Moore and the other one with silver hair. I'm afraid

that although I think Nicola has been playing a blinder recently, I

think the part played by the No campaign in persuading us it would

rain every day of the week and we would have nothing deeds and there

would be no call for the fire, I think folk are bad enough of it. --

there would be nothing to eat. think about your perception, is it

that Nicola Sturgeon is now playing a relatively more important role

that she was in the past and Alex Selman displaying less an important

role? -- Alex Salmond. I think he has cottoned on to the idea of the

liquid -- delegating power. He has been playing a very good game as

well. The younger ones are coming through now and therefore it is not

just Nicola who has been pushed out in front both hit -- in front of a

mix-up. There is a team building up, I am glad to see, I might have been

the SNP but I want to see it They have a stronger team and it is

to an extent the same. Younger ones are coming through the ranks who

are very good. I think the fundamental problem is that Alex

Salmond is seen as the SNP government. His satisfaction

ratings are falling. I will give a warning. This is one opinion poll

that showed support for independence back at the level

where it has been for 20 years. But it is only one. Do you agree there

is any substance? I think there is some substance to it. It is only

one. It is on the actual question of yes and no. 4% have gone up over

the course of the Year. Look at the number of people who do not know.

There is a huge amount of people, most of them women, who are waiting

to see and what they are seeing from the no side is driving them to

drink. Oh, no, we are not allowed to drink now! But it is driving

them to drink. It is 11%, which is not high, but don't knows. What is

interesting is the differential between men and women. Men are more

switched on to the idea of independence. What is fascinating

is between deprived and affluent areas, in deprived areas there is a

propensity for people to vote yes and in affluent areas it is 65% to

say they will vote no. If you live in the East End of Glasgow and you

have to look forward to cuts that are coming, we know we cannot

escape them. We will get more of what we have got, only worse. You

would vote yes, as well. I think Labour have a problem. The campaign

will rely on Labour to get out the vote. In the deprived areas,

traditional Labour heartlands, if they are voting yes in bigger

numbers, there is a problem for that campaign. Scottish MPs have a

good chance of voting yes. Something you can both agree on is

that while the latest opinion poll might not reflect an not turn in

the vote for independence, it will have to up to earn more than that -

- upturn. What should the priorities be? They do need a step

change. What do they do to get it? The yes crowd were caught off guard

by the speed and momentum that build up before they had prepared.

There was no proper planning. This is why I was talking for months,

get out a stream of information that is as level as you can make it,

do not make it partizan at this stage, get the basic facts out.

That was overtaken by events. I think they are getting it together.

I think they are pacing themselves. They know when the white paper will

go out and when the information will go out on different aspects of

the negotiations. One thing I wish they would not do and that is

danced to the tune of experts to come in and say the United Nations,

they will not have you, neither will the European Union, and even

the Organisation for African Unity, they would probably not much care

you. That is nonsense. That poor man, James Mitchell, admitted, he

said no, of course the United Nations would have us. The European

Union would be an easy negotiation. The timescale was just about right.

The no campaign, what do you do? Do you keep going or do something

radical? The debate has moved on. We are not talking about mechanics,

we are talking about policy and it is all about the economy. Both

sides have got to be able to put an argument over to win people over.

Neither have done that yet. shall leave it on that thought.

Few can doubt the dangers posed by climbing on Scotland's mountains.

But the recent deaths on our hills have brought the issue into sharp

focus. It seems the risks are doing little to put people off, and

that's led to calls from some quarters to start restricting

access to our mountains. The attraction of the mountain

Straw's climbers from around the world every year. Those coming to

experience the beauty must deal with its hidden dangers. Last

weekend, a 31-year-old man from Yorkshire became the 7th hill

walker to die on Scottish mountains this year. He was climbing in the

Cairngorms with friends who were rescued by helicopter. In January,

another man was killed in the Cairngorms and another died while

climbing on Ben Davies. Their deaths came after an avalanche

killed four climbers -- Nevis. Despite an increase in warnings,

there are few signs that mountaineers are deter it. In 2011,

there were 52 deaths on Scottish hills. There is the cost and the

risk to rescuers. More than 1,000 volunteers make up the 25 Scottish

rescue teams. There are Street police teams and two RAF teams and

a Scottish cave rescue team. They all rely on donations. Is it time

to restrict access? Do the challenges and rewards offered by

the mountains out weigh the risks? Joining me now is Dorothy Grace

Elder, who wants tighter restrictions on access the

mountains. Also Paul Cunningham, a mountaineering instructor. What is

it you want? There should be a period of about one year in which

the Scottish mountaineering Council really gets tough. I look at the

website with good information about weather. But it is not saying, look,

this is the death toll in the last number of years, it is horrendous,

do not go in Bad weather. This is madness. All of the people who have

been killed this year, as far as I can see were fairly experienced.

This is not people going with the wrong equipment and not knowing

what they are doing. What we are doing is letting people go on the

mountains with not enough warnings. People are coming from England,

Wales and Ireland. They do not know these mountain so well and they are

less likely to turn back because they have travelled hundreds of

miles to go to Scotland. They will go on where maybe a local person

would turn back. We need to protect these people. Are we protecting

tourism? Do we want it to become to Scotland and died? That is what we

are getting. The figures are appalling. What is your take on the

idea of restrictions? It is basically ridiculous to restrict

freedom of access. There are accidents and tragedies happen. But

there are tragedies when you can walk out of their house and be hit

by a car, things can happen to you. People need the access. There is a

lot of good information and educational courses. There are

mountain safety courses. Why do people want to go out in bad

weather? In extremely bad weather, you are probably right, you get to

university clubs and people coming from far away and they have one

weekend to do something and they get goal orientated and perhaps get

themselves into trouble. I remember years ago making a film on this

issue. One thing that came out of that was that people involved in

mountain rescue say that people do not understand when you take things

like wind chill into account, being on a Scottish mountain can be a

hostile environment. It can be a volatile environment. Somewhere

like the Alps are more stable and colder but more predictable and

here they are less predictable. people not understand that? There

are very few mountaineers who have been out for any length of time who

are not aware of the risks of going out to the mountains and they

accept those risks. Generally it is not through lack of experience,

they are genuinely -- generally well-equipped. If they had a

certificate they had to pass, they probably would pass them and yet

accidents do happen. Of course, there is a risk and that is why

people do it. But there are different risks. This is a suicide

mission in very bad weather. If you spoke to some of the mountain

rescue people, they Armand and ears. Many of them -- they are

mountaineers. But there are not enough strong warnings. The

dreadful tragedy occurs, four people in one incident, two of them

young doctors the other two graduates. They have probably put

25 years into their education. They are wiped out not in a noble cause

of rescuing somebody from a war zone. Do these people have any

special insurance? You do not have to have insurance in this country.

But if you are a member of the British mountaineering Council you

will have some form of insurance. It is a fairly safe bets... Should

there be insurance? They should be, that is a minor thing to achieve.

We are not just risking voluntary rescue teams, we are risking the

police, air-sea rescue and, after this tragedy, there will be more

human sacrifice for the selfish pleasure of a few. We will have to

leave it there. On the front pages, leave it there. On the front pages,

in the Daily Mail, the plight of pensioners. More than half the

Scottish people will be forced to keep on working after 65 because

they cannot afford to retire. And the meat scandal in the Daily