13/05/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Scotland were born elsewhere in the British Isles.

What do they make of the arguments for and against Scottish

Hello, good evening and welcome to the latest of our Newsnight Scotland

special debates ahead of the independence referendum.

Tonight, I am joined by an audience of Scottish voters who have, in most

cases, moved to Scotland from other parts of the UK and Ireland.

They are here to share their hopes and concerns for the future of the

country they now call home. You are there you are They have submitted a

range of questions for our guests, who are, Councillor Chas Booth.

You are you are a you are in An independence supporter. Originally

from Lincolnshire, he is a Green councillor in Edinburgh.

Gordon Banks, the Labour MP for Ochil & South Perthshire, who hails

from the North East of England. Humza Yousef, MSP, the SNP Minister

for External Affairs. And Katie Grant, the newspaper

columnist, who opposes independence. Let's go straight to our first

question, which comes from Feliciyy Cross. A Should the people of

Scotland be given a referendum on membership of the European Union if

we become independent? Haze and we will be run with

referendums the team we are finished. The trouble with

referendums on the likes of the European Union is that we are not

sure what we are voting for or against. I think most of us feel

that. I think we do not know what we are voting for or against. I would

not be in favour of the referendum in favour of European Union

membership. I would like them to be more openness about the benefits and

drawbacks. But I think it would be a long time before I, speaking

personally, understood what I was floating for or against. I certainly

would not know if it was good or bad, I would be voting in the dark.

I'd can see the attraction of voting, but I cannot see any deal

point to it. David Cameron is obviously promising a United Kingdom

white referendum on it following the next election. 2017 is the target

date for that. I that time, Scotland could be independent. I do not think

there is any appetite for that. I think there is a recognition in

Scotland that the European Union is the hugely beneficial family of

nations and look forward to the day when Scotland takes its place as a

full member of the European Union. I think we realise the benefits we get

from the European Union, in terms of jobs through exports, but the

protection of workers and the environmental protections. In many

Respect, the rise of the United Kingdom Independence party in

England, for many Scots, makes it look like England and see that it is

becoming a foreign country to us. We do not recognise this xenophobia

been put forward by them. I do not think that any appetite for a

referendum on the European Union. The United Kingdom Independence

party and not here, but of the where, I assumed they would say they

were not against foreigners. I am putting that I normally behalf.

Gordon Banks. We may comment already about our experiences of the

European Union as a member state in the United Kingdom. Bruce Scotland

have to renegotiate its deal with the European Union. Really important

decisions would have to be made. Whether Scotland were tough to draw

up new arrangements on border controls and whether it would get

the same level of rebate that we currently get as the United Kingdom.

On the basis of these things, I cannot for the life of me imagine

that an independent Scotland negotiating successfully in a way

that they United Kingdom government has done in these agreements. I

think this is a major issue which does meet wider scrutiny. These are

things which would not be like the membership of the European Union as

it is today. I do not believe that Scots could not successfully

negotiate for their own country in Europe. I think that is rather

demeaning. I actually broadly with the comments that Katie was seeing,

probably the only time I will agree with her! But what is the vital

point and Nicola Sturgeon said this in a speech today, think about

2020, who here would get �5 on the United Kingdom remaining -- mackerel

the European Union as things are going. Even the most harsh critic

has said that an independent Scotland could not be in the

European Union. Actually, it would secure the future of Scotland. There

are plenty of benefits in terms of freedom of movement, business

opportunities and we have a market of 200,000 businesses we can tap

into. If the rest of the United Kingdom is going to get that choice,

why should Scots not get that choice? I do not think that is an

appetite for retro. It is very simple. The United Kingdom

Independence party is driving this agenda. They have not saved a single

deposit in Scotland. But Scotland will have to ask to become a member

of the European Union. Every country which has had to become a member has

had to take the Euro. There is no resident for an existing state

opting out. Last weekend, an adviser to the German government said it

would we quite straightforward for Scotland to negotiate membership of

the European union. Let us speak to members of the audience regarding

this. If Gordon is so concerned about the entry for us into the

European Union would be, without not be better FT backed the British

Government on this, so we could clear up some of these questions?

That would not be the British Government. These negotiations would

have to happen with an independent Scotland and the European Union but

not carry out the negotiations until Scotland has voted on this.

commission has said it would be prepared to explain the process by

which Scotland would obtain independent membership of the United

Kingdom Government was to put forward that scenario. Would you

support an approach of that nature to try and clarify what would

happen? I think you could clarify the situation brother we would have

the Euro, whether we would still get all that rebate. These are the

fundamental things that the downside. Anything that adds clarity

to this -- we have already had from my colleague that there will be no

referendum. We have heard that from the panel tonight. Would you welcome

the United Kingdom gunmen setting out a scenario that the commission

could then set out what could happen? I would welcome debate on

these three very important issues I have mentioned. The reason why the

United Kingdom gunmen would enter with the Scottish government -- and

we have been calling for these negotiations -- the reason is just

to provide an informed discussion. The reason they will not want it is

that they want to plant as many seeds as doubt as they can. I was

wandering how long it would take for someone to say someone would be

forced into using the euro. Research countries which have joined the

European Union, there has not been one which is not at to join the

euro. Sweden was not forced. I am sure we will develop the argument.

It has been said that if Scotland get Independence, they should not

have a referendum on the European Union because the people would not

realise the facts about what they were voting for. Is that not the

also the case with the Scottish independence referendum, where

people are not well informed enough and do not quite know what the will

be voting for? Surely the assumption you're making about the European

Union and the lack of negotiations that are going on, not between the

British gunmen and the European Union, but applies to the European

Union, Natal and all the other maths that the Scottish gunmen are

bandying around at the moment that there are no answers to? I know the

United Kingdom Independence party am not represented, but I think it is

dangerous to dismiss the possible impact of them. They were in as a

protest party to keep Labour out and I think that if they started to rise

in this country, if we have Independence within Europe, that is

effectively dependent on Europe and there is nothing to see Scotland

will not lose assets if we joined Europe. The party are part of the

central debate, do you think that part of that debate being generated

about the United Kingdom Independence party will have an

impact on the fort for Scottish independence? Time will tell on

that. But as has been said, they have consistently was the deposit in

every election in Scotland. I do not think there is any appetite for the

agenda, which I maintain his anti-emigrant, antiforeigner. It is

being on the fears and insecurities of people. In Scotland, immigration

is a great thing for us. We have done great things for our culture

and economy. Again, this is another argument for independence. If we are

having a United Kingdom argument about it immigration, the radius is

true in Scotland. Perhaps we Ashley need more immigration in Scotland. I

do not think we should let the deal like the dog, the deal being the

United Kingdom Independence party. Might the independence movement have

something to gain from all the talk of withdrawal elsewhere? Well, it

might, but I don't really buy this UKIP thing. It was a tiny percentage

of the vote, very few people actually voted. I think it is a

bubble that will burst, just like the BNP bubble burst when they

became councillors. They did not do a very good job and they all

disappeared again. Periodically, we get these bursts of protest, which

always have, not unusually, focused on parties which have a very clear

message, but other parties do not have a clear message. However

unpleasant that messages, it attracts voters. I am not nervous

about the UKIP vote, I do not think it will process very much, I do not

think we will still be thinking about it in five is time. I would

tend to agree with that. Twice! We are counting! I should point out we

are sitting on the left of the panel. When it comes to Katie's

point, in terms of what I was going to say, I do not think it is a

protest most, not only because you see Tory backbenchers talking about

UK withdrawal, but senior Cabinet members. We are even talking about

people who are tipped to be future leaders of the Conservative Party.

want to move on at this stage, I am sure we will talk more on Newsnight

in the weeks to come. Ashley Pringle is our next question. How should a

future Scotland, independent or other was, game maximum benefits

from immigration from outwith its borders? Gordon Banks. Immigration

has been good. Land, I would agree with Charles on that, agreeing to

the left and to the right. -- good for Scotland. What I would like to

see, and we proposed a bill in our alternative Queen's Speech, a bill

that Labour would bring in, and this would be a bill based on the

economic soft immigration, so that we cannot have employers who are

undercutting indigenous workers in Scotland and in the rest of the UK

by bringing foreign workers in, paying them less than the national

minimum wage, offsetting their wages with accommodation. We would empower

councils, including Scottish councils, to enforce the national

minimum wage, double B finds, and that in itself would mean economic

migration that we get would be the economic migration that we want, not

the economic migration that undercuts the Scottish worker and

the UK worker. Is that a policy you would be comfortable with?

policy sounds great, coming from Gordon, but the problem is he has

nowhere of implementing it, which is the difficulty. Immigration is one

of the few issues that unites business, the trade unions, and

universities, that I have seen in terms of signing joint letters.

Immigration has of course been good for Scotland. Having grown up in

Glasgow, my favourite dishes are chicken tikka masala and spaghetti

Bolognese, the big immigrant groups that have brought their cuisine. But

the difficulty is this, immigration is the first issue. If you are down

in the polls, feeling the heat of your own backbenchers, the first

issue to go for is immigration, and sounding good on immigration. The UK

Government could not tell you the number of immigrants in this

country. The point is, why don't we take the power in our own hands so

that we can find out, yes, there is a shortage in these occupations that

cannot be filled by indigenous Scots, where do we need immigrants,

and where we need them in Scotland? Actually control the policy in the

Scottish Parliament, as opposed to a government 450 miles away that is

kowtowing to the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph and UKIP agenda and

does not benefit Scotland whatsoever. Even when you say the

Labour Party, they were probably more restrictive in government on

immigration and the current Tory government, and that is quite

something. Totally wrong!Even Jack McConnell, on asylum, when he tried

to protest about dawn raids and the detention centre, even the UK

Government, the Labour Party government, told him where to go. I

think we should control these powers ourselves. We should not confuse

immigration and asylum, they are vastly different. If Gordon Brown

extend out to be right in terms of EU negotiations, and an independent

Scotland was obliged to become part of the Schengen zone, wouldn't that

mean border controls between Scotland and the UK? The EU has

never been about erecting borders, we are never going to get border

guards at Carlisle or Berwick-upon-Tweed. The Common

travel area has been there for the Republic of Ireland and the rest of

the UK. Why on earth, when common sense dictates... Look, the Scottish

Government and UK Government, they got together and signed the

Edinburgh Agreement, which said, detailing in black-and-white,

irrespective of what the vote is, both governments would respect the

result and do what is in the best interest of Scotland and the rest of

the United Kingdom. It does not make sense in anybody's logic... That is

about the wider negotiation with the European Union. Europe is not about

borders, it is bringing people together. The gentleman there.

question was basically just asked, but at the moment we are dealing

with a lot of things that we think the case now. As has been said,

there is a lot of uncertainty about Scotland's's relationship with or

without, how do we know what is the case now will continue with showing

in, what ease of movement for potential immigrants? The only thing

I would say about that is the 2020 question, how much certainty do you

have within the United Kingdom? Can you say that eat UK will be within

within the EU? Let's deal with this question of certainty. Do we need to

accept, Katie Grant, that we will not get answers either from those

promoting independence or those same no, we are better off remaining part

of the UK? Of course we are not. It was ridiculous of Nicola Sturgeon to

ask all those questions, because they could have been asked of an

independent Scotland - there cannot be certainty either way, she could

not tell who the government of Scotland would be, and she's

assuming it would be the SMP, and that is not an assumption she can

possibly make. I think that both sides have to accept that there is a

lot of uncertainty, but it seems so unnecessary, and in certainty in so

many ways. I think that, you know, so many contradictions in the yes

campaign's approach, on the one hand we must take control and can only

take control of immigration if we become an independent country. On

the other hand, we are all going to join together so we will agree

anyway. I simply cannot, for the life of me, understand why we need

to separate in order to agree about some things like immigration, for

example, when we have a Scottish Government. Let me bring in Chas

Booth, the business of certainty. If we are not going to get hard facts

from either side, how on earth are we meant to make up our minds?

true that there is a lot of uncertainty, but as both Katie and

Humza Yousaf has said, there are uncertainties on both sides. If we

remain part of the United Kingdom, who knows what the UK Government

will do? In many respects, a vote for independence preserves many of

the institutions we hold most dear - the NHS, which is being privatised

by the Tories down south, it is true, Katie! The Tories in the House

of Lords consistently, with financial interest in health care

companies that will benefit from the privatisation of the NHS, voted for

partial privatisation. If we want to retain the NHS, the best way to do

that is to vote for independence. The BBC is another institution under

attack from Tories at UK level, and yet in Scotland we have consistently

valued and preserved the BBC. I think, actually, in many respects, a

vote for independence is a vote for a lot of the status quo, a lot of

the things that Scots hold most dear. I want to talk about the

interventions to the debate today from Gordon Brown and from the

Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, arguing over, in effect,

social justice, Gordon Brown saying that the union was the best way to

guarantee that, Nicola Sturgeon saying that independence, for

instance, the SNP in power would get rid of the bedroom tax. Let's pick

up on that with Gordon Banks, first of all. If Scotland became an

independent country, wouldn't you be able to pursue a social justice

agenda, perhaps even in partnership with the SNP at Holyrood, and get a

lot more of what you want than waiting to eventually get back into

power across the UK? The fundamental issue here is that independence is a

permanency. Independence is not for a term, it is not for two terms of a

government. It is something that Scotland would have to live with for

the rest of its days. In the Labour Party, we would argue that the

United Kingdom, as a coherent body, has delivered much more to the

benefit of the whole of the United Kingdom. We are greater than the sum

of our parts. What about in the future? Couldn't you achieve more of

the agenda that you want to pursue, and more quickly, if you went for

independence? Why should inequality in Edinburgh were you but not in

Eastbourne? I think inequality in the United Kingdom is something that

should worry me and something that should worry UK politicians, and it

does. And I want to end up with the United Kingdom a better and fairer

place. The point that Chas made earlier, about independence being

the route to keep everything basically as it is, independence to

keep the NHS, which is devolved to Scotland as it is already,

independence to keep the BBC. The one way to keep the BBC, the one way

to keep the pound is to stay in the United Kingdom and the vote no in

the referendum. As you tend to do before coming on the programme, I

was looking at a clip that Gordon had made to his local school, and he

says clearly, and I quote exactly, with independence there would be a

surgeons of the Labour Party, an Independent Labour Party in

Scotland. -- a resurgence. Absolutely, so if the Labour Party

could go back to the values of the old social Labour Party, those

values of Keir Hardie, those great men of the labour movement, the

Labour Party would go back into that, and we would create social

justice. I have a problem with this line that we should care about

poverty in Eastbourne and Edinburgh, believing that

independence would stop that. I am the minister for international do,

and I care just as much about poverty in Malawi as I do as

Motherwell, Rwanda and Rutherglen. Just because they are independent

countries does not mean that we cannot care about their social

condition. We want to do more than care, we want to write these wrongs.

Imagine Scotland was a progressive beacon, there would be a massive

realignment, including within the Labour Party, and we can show best

practice, like we have done with the parliament, the smoking ban, free

personal care. Let's bring in more voices from our audience. The lady

in the back row and then the lady there. Yeah, just on the Labour

Party wanting to have policies that benefit across the UK, I just feel

slightly that the previous labour at ministration south of the border

have not delivered for Scotland as well as they could have done, and

therefore perhaps that is one reason why people in Scotland do not have

the confidence or do not have the goodwill anymore, sadly, to care as

much as they showed about other parts of the UK. OK, I don't need

you to come back on that, other voices from the audience. Gordon

talked about the Labour Party and social values and wanting to build a

fairer society. We have given the UK Government the chance to build a

fairer society, and society has got more unfair, the Pru have got

poorer, the rich have got richer, and Scotland is saying, we have had

enough of that, that is why we are voting Yes For Scotland and building

a wealthier Scotland and having a choice in what we do in the future.

The gentleman from this side. just seconding these points, really

what we are feeling increasingly is, actually, politics down south of the

border at the UK level is really for London and that greater area, and

for the North of England and Scotland there is not that much

representation for what we value as social justice. It is supporting

that point. I have experienced the diversions between the culture in

England and the culture in Scotland. I think that has been

centred around social justice. Race and immigration come into it. We do

not have the culture in Scotland of the United Kingdom Independence

party and the we are much prouder of or social justice systems. That

divergences of cultures of wishes and wants in the society that has

today the biggest boon for independence that I can think of.

Yes, it does not matter where you come from. I think because values

make transcendent. Let us take control do things to the best

interests of those who live here. That is what bothers me. Let us just

do things for the people who live here. We are going to become more

inward looking and I think that is a real worry. What really bothers me

is that some of the rhetoric round the yes campaign is really high in

the sky. We all want a wealthy nation, we want it for our children

whether the life and the rest of the United Kingdom. We want a Scottish

Voice in Westminster as well as Holyrood, so that the whole country

pulls together. Of course, people say it does not really work so far,

so letters get independence and we may become nicer people. Scotland

itself is a very diverse nation. We appear to not represent the whole of

Scotland. I think it is a mistake to think that, just because Scotland

got independence, somehow it would make us nicer. It does not. I think

it is important that Scotland shows leadership. I think the gentleman

who said that is the feeling of social justice in Scotland, he is

right. Scotland as an independent nation could really sure their

weight and promote a more equal society and a more independent angle

and good luck to Scotland and follow the lead. I agree with God and that

we should care about those who are marginalised in Eastbourne, but the

best way to benefit them Scotland showing a leadership role as an

independent nation. No, I want to bring in another topic. Is this not

really a discussion about what defines Scottish identity quite? Is

the social justice agenda not really what this is about? Is it about to

be clear about people? There's a society. Scots have an identity. It

is about equality and justice and that is what independence is about.

That is what Gordon Brown spoke about at the launch of the Labour

campaign. I think this is a time for Scottish people to rise up and show

leadership. What is to stop us from showing a leadership age and paving

the way for the rest of the folk in the United Kingdom? Using the

existing powers? Well, I do not see why we have to wait until we are

independent. Because of the Scottish Parliament, there is some

enlightenment in that regard, but it does not have the powers for the

likes of Trident and tax-raising. There is a white elephant in the

middle of the room in this room. If you step out the studio tonight most

folk are not interested or bored or fed up with it. We are facing

another 18 months of this. You are talking about poverty. That is an

issue which has today dealt with. The referendum issue is causing a

blockage. We have to deal with that far earlier and one way to do that

is that the MPs speak up and try and take some action. We have got an MP

here tonight. If you want a decision on the union, white do you not

resign your seat at Ascot the electorate? I have to resign may

seek every five years when we go to the electorate. And now, the next

question. If an independent Scotland retains

Stirling as part of a currency union with the rest of United Kingdom,

what specific individual fiscal levers would be available to the

Scottish government? It is a great question. It is not just Scottish

government policy. This has been endorsed and seen as the best option

by the independent fiscal commission. Set up by the Scottish

government! You are surely not questioning the integrity? I am just

pointing out that they were set up by the Scottish government. They

have said it would be in the interests of both countries. We

believe we would be able to, just by reducing by 3%, would get millions

of to create jobs. We would also have fiscal levers with regards to

getting a better welfare system. That is what it is about. Someone

said to me when I was coming and, would you have the United Kingdom

Government controlling your interest rates? What a load of rubbish.

would not have any representation on the monetary commission. My point is

this. Actually, what we would do is work with the United Kingdom

Government to find out what is in the best interests of both parties.

Monitors have said Scotland would have a place on the committee. That

would make sense. But has been said, they may not to this. On your own

programme, this was said a couple of times. He did not say no. He did

not. That is so much travel and business that goes on between

Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, it makes perfect sense for

Scotland to retain the use of the pound. It is not about whose face is

on the currency. It is about the best interests of Scotland. With the

fiscal leaders that is sent Scotland would have be worthwhile? We have it

in the United Kingdom. Why do we have two separate to create a

mechanism to get something back which is maybe fairly similar to

what we may have. But without having any of the political control because

we would not have any representatives in Westminster. The

Bank of England would be focusing on its policies to do with the rest of

the United Kingdom. The interest rates in conjunction with the rest

of the United Kingdom and Scotland may not have a member only monetary

policy commission. You are accepting it would. It sounds like you and

accepting that the rest of the United Kingdom would want Scotland

to retain Stirling. No, I have no knowledge that negotiations at that

point in time would result in Scotland being able to keep the

pound. What would you want? What would you want the currency of an

independent Scotland to be, if that's what the voters for did for

independence? We had accepting that there is going to be a referendum,

but it comes down to politicians to work out the best way forward. What

do you think the best currency option would be? The best currency

option on my wish list would be to keep the pound. There is no

guarantee that this will be the case. The evidence from around the

world is that we will need fiscal union ultimately. We need to look at

the growth of the euro. Is this not the counterargument that there's far

less divergences across the United Kingdom and the differences in the

European Union? Yes, that is certainly different in many ways,

but we would still have to sign a stability pact with the rest of the

United Kingdom. I was going to point out that the European bank does not

set out its rates according to the strongest country, but amongst all

of them. The rates are not just set to benefit England, if that were the

case after independence, not the would be set for the entire United

Kingdom. I just want to getting one more question here.

If the result of the referendum has only a narrow margin in favour, or

against, independence, how would the winning side accommodate the views

of the large, albeit minority, of voters? Let us start this one.

Interestingly enough, we do not have a complete majority on this. When we

have told this, around two thirds of our members have been in favour of

independence. We have to be honest and open and see that whichever way

the vote goes -- and obvious that I am in favour of the yes vote, we

have to ensure that we involve everybody from both sides of the

argument. Interestingly, the issue of corporation tax was mentioned. I

do not see an independent Scotland in a race to have low tax and low

support. I would rather see a Scandinavian model. That just shows

that even within the yes camp, there's a debate as to the state of

an independent Scotland. What we need to separate is the issue of

independence and the policies that would be pursued in an independent

Scotland. The two are related. Gordon Brown said we should not have

independence because it would lead to a cut in corporation tax. That is

not the case. In a post-independent Scotland, it may well be that Labour

was the largest party. We need to recognise that policies of an

independent Scotland and being independent related but separate

issues. I think whoever wins has to accept with gays that they are not

going to win by a great margin. I would really hope that after words

we do not end up with the never-ending situation with the

Scottish National party starting again and seeing this will just be

for a slight length of time because of the narrowness of the vote. I

hope this settles it once and for all. If the Scottish people vote for

independence, I will do my very best to make sure I play my part in an

independent Scotland in a positive way and I'm sure most people in

Scotland would do the same. It is in all our interest to make the country

work any positive way. What I really dread is that the narrowness of the

vote means that the Scottish National party will never give up.

That is the reason for being. So, if the vote goes against them, we're an

eagle from the? -- Michael Weir can eagle from the? We could have a

situation that policy swing from one party to the other and we could end

up with a balance, regardless of who wins. Any sense of policy. Policies

will balance out either way and even if we gain independence, the

policies of those who wanted to remain in the union will remain in

the political arena. What would you do to accommodate those on the other

side should you when the debate? there is a yes vote, it will be my

duty and the Scottish Government's duty, along with the yes campaigners

of many parties, our duty on the 19th of September is to bring

everything into that tent, including them in the process of creating and

rebuilding a new nation, that will be just as much a task for them as

it will be for the Scottish Government, and I look forward to

the day when we have Johann Lamont, Willie Rennie, Ruth Davidson, Nicola

Sturgeon, Alex Salmond, even Gordon Brown sitting down as Team Scotland,

going down to Westminster and saying, we are here to represent

Scotland, getting the best deal around the negotiation table. It is

imperative we do that the day after. If the result was the other way

around? Constitutionally, we have to accept if it is 51-49 in support of

independence, Scotland will become an independent country. But the

point that Katie makes has real resonance - if it is 51-49 the other

way, this argument will keep coming back to us, and it will mean that in

Scotland we have our eye off the really important things, the social

justice issues, the jobs and the economy, that we talked about

earlier, and if Humza will let me finish, after taking the for

interrupting him, the real commitment I would like to see here

tonight is that we abide by the result and put it to one side and

get on building a better and fairer Scotland, and I hope that is a

better and fairer Scotland in the United Kingdom. A final quick

question from Claire Duncan. What is the preferred national anthem for

Scotland after independence? indeed if you want to change the

national anthem at the moment! think we should have a national

dance and drummers, because I cannot think of any song which does not end

up as a drone, rather a drone. Yousaf. I think they should be a

national competition. I do not think I would vote in that condition, it

is the trickiest minefield for any politician, but my favourite song is

Caledonia. How does that go? We are having enough problems trying to

name a bridge, never mind a national anthem, but Alex Salmond wants to

keep the pound, he wants to keep the Queen, maybe he will want to keep

God Save The Queen as well. Chas Booth? As a Republican, this is an

area... I would like to give rid of our nonelected head of state. I

think a lot has been made of Scotland's legality in nature, our

you very much indeed, that is all we have got time for. Thanks to our

panel and everyone in our audience for your questions and