15/05/2013 Newsnight Scotland

well, that, as we have seen tonight, Tonight, does Britain have a future

in Europe? It does not, what does that mean for Scotland's place in

Europe? We hear from a former Irish Prime Minister and the current

Scottish first Minister about SNP plans for Scottish membership of the

youth mushrooming that is what Scottish voters want. -- ship of the

EU. Once a member of the church in our broken man, we ask why the Pope

has ordered Cardinal O'Brien into Excel. Good evening. As the

Conservative Party engages in its latest contortion of Europe, what

does it mean for Scotland 's elation ship with Europe two 130 Tories

events to your scepticism tonight, supporting the amendments to the

Queen's Speech. Tonight, the former Irish Prime Minister, John Bruton,

has backed Alex Salmond, -- Alex Salmond's... He has told Newsnight

Scotland that the process could be completed within 18 months. John

Bruton think the formal treaty of accession would be required. Glen

Campbell has been to Dublin to speak member of the European Union. It has

prospered in the EU and was rescued by it when the crash came. In the

Irish parliament, you would struggle to find a serious argument for exit.

This former Prime Minister once Scotland to remain in the EU, too,

whatever happens in the independence referendum. I would like to keep

Scotland and, as an Irish person. I think the contribution Scotland

could make is enormous. The Scottish government thinks it should be

possible to negotiate continued membership of the European Union in

the 18 months between a yes vote in the point of independence. Is that

realistic? the attitude of the rest of the UK would be important. The

attitude of the other member states would be important. When it comes to

admitting a new member, Scotland would not become a new member, as an

independent entity. Every one of the existing members has the right to

say yes or no. This is a unanimous the session. There are certain

criteria that have to be fulfilled. Could that be done in 18 months? I

think it probably could. And here is why they take the view. The end of

the day, it is important to reflect on the fact that the European Union,

ultimately, while it is based on rules and law, is a practical

political enterprise. It works on the basis of mutual interests and

compromise. Condom is as are always found, sometimes with a bit of

suspense involved, but they are always found. Is a former Prime

Minister, John Bruton does not speak for Ireland, which currently holds

the presidency of the European Union. But as someone who went on to

work for the EU for five years as it's in Bassett to the United

States, he knows a great deal about how the European Union actually

works. In Edinburgh, his assessment on Scottish membership of the Euro

was welcomed by the first Minister. There is agreement that 18 months is

a realistic timescale. Whatever the final procedure, there is agreement

and the issue is almost over as a debate. That is a realistic

timescale and the debate is to negotiate our position within

Europe. Others are more conscious -- others are more cautious. I think

others would want Scotland to be tested. Every other EU country has a

vote on that. They would have to ratify the inclusion of a new state.

The time involved and that is longer than people think. Back in London,

the T-shirt says that the possibility of a UK referendum is

exercising politicians than the debate over Scotland's future --

Taiosach. my concern is an Irish person is more the risk of the UK

leading European Union. Would we have two introduce passport control

for the first time ever in our history, if the UK wanted to keep

Bulgarian or other EU immigrants out? If there was the possibility of

them entering the UK through Ireland, would we have two really

introduce passport controls? What would that do to community relations

between the communities in the reconciliation in Ireland, which the

Good Friday agreement, and the Queens visit has done so much to

improve? And is any thought been giving -- being given to the thought

of what it would do to the economy of these islands? David Cameron

wants to renegotiate the UK's membership of the EU club before

holding an in-out referendum. By then, Scotland will have decided

whether or not to follow Ireland to independence from the UK, and EU

for external affairs, Fiona Hyslop, and by Labour's Ken McIntosh, speaks

for Labour on these matters. This tide is not matched John Bruton's

but there we are. On the issue of Scotland joining the EU, I am

completely confused. Why do not understand the disagreement between

you two. Everyone agrees that the EU is unlikely not to once Scotland as

a member but everyone agrees that there would have to be some sort of

process which would have to be ratified by the other member states

for Scotland to take a seat. What is it that you are arguing about?

terms of the process, John Bruton is correct in identifying that an 18

month timescale from a yes vote to 2016, where you would have a legal

responsibility... 18 months, you know, he says one thing and other

people say another. So do the legal academics. Do you disagree on

anything about this? Had not discussed this with ten. well, do

you? the difficulty is that the SNP position has changed. I'm not sure

what would be disagreeing with. The SNP used to assert that the bishop

was automatic in-out not only that they say that they have legal

opinion. They went accords to defend that legal opinion. you are

misrepresenting things. I think they have accepted that it is a matter

for negotiation. We have reached that place. you agree that? we think

it is on the detail of that. When you going to ask for legal advice?

It might in us. We have received legal advice. That is correct.

what is it? well, no government would disclose that but what we have

said and Nicola Sturgeon said this in October, is that the white paper

will set out the proposals of how this would be achieved. Euro you are

interrupting me. I'm trying to answer your question. The important

thing is that everyone agrees that the idea of negotiating from

continuing membership, the details of the membership, that is the way

forward. Increasingly, we have had the recommendation from the United

Kingdom's legal academics that as agreed with that. The important

thing is to do this from a continuing membership position.

you have legal advice but you would not tell us what it is? Neither

would the UK government. you are asking that the government makes a

formal approach, but you will not tell us what your own legal advice

is? I think it is important for the UK government to agree with the

European Union to look at that process. Think it is important.

Everybody is now agreeing that the period between a yes vote in

September of 2014 and legal independence in 2016 is the correct

timescale. Can we talk less about the process and more about the

important thing is that we can gain. Why was in Dublin last week in the

biggest threat to Scotland's jobs and interests in relation to what

John Bruton said, is the UK's threats to take Scotland out of

Europe. Alex Salmond has a point, arguing that the other way to ensure

Scotland stays in the European Union is to vote for independence because

you can perfectly imagine a situation where if there was no vote

next year, then there could, in theory, in 2017 be a vote for the UK

to leave the European Union. And it is possible to imagine a situation

where people in Scotland vote yes to stay in in the European Union, and

people in the south of England vote to get out. And we end up leaving.

Alex Salmond has an argument. not convinced that follow. This is

the commission upon speculation and assertion after assertion. He

described his position as this. He is asserting two things. He is

suggesting that the Scottish people would vote to leave the UK, but keep

the pound, and then we would vote to stay in the EU, but not keep the

euro. I'm not entirely sure that that position is actually tenable or

illegal. Fiona Hyslop is not suggesting we have a vote on that. I

am saying that if people reject independence, it is quite

conceivable that we could be out of the EU by 2017 because Britain has

voted to leave the European Union, and therefore Alex Salmond has a

point when he says that one way of guaranteeing that Scotland is in the

European Union is to vote yes to independence. You say it is an

assertion but it is not an unreasonable proposition to say that

Labour will not win the next election. You would concede that it

is not a guarantee. Wires are definitely the case that Scotland

would stay in the EU? the Tories have voted to night that they want

to see an opportunity to get the UK out of Europe. The other way you can

guarantee continuing membership of the U2 protect jobs and services is

going to be a yes vote, because in terms of the consensus in Scotland,

whether it is political parties or the majority of Parliament...

the guarantee is the democratic will of the people? I have no difficulty

being guaranteed by the democratic will of the Scottish people, but I

would be more interested in this legal advice. What I would as is

whether you would publish, given we are going to have a referendum next

year, why won't you publish the terms of the legal advice before the

Reverend in Scotland? Because surely it is pretty central to the argument

you are making, and the Scottish people have arrived to see that

legal opinion. no government is going to break precedent like that.

It is confidential. You were demanding that the UK government

made a formal approach for legal advice but you were telling the

people of Scotland that they are not allowed to know your own legal

advice. You're complaining there is no transparency. Euro the important

thing is the white paper that will set out the terms for the

independence proposal, and it will be consistent with the legal advice

that we have received. That is the reassurance you are looking for and

that is the reassurance promised by Nicola Sturgeon? Is this the same

reassurance that the first Minister made when he said in terms of the

debate that he had already got these commitments? this scenario, I would

say that Alex Salmond has a point to insure staying in the EU, because

you could imagine Britain voting to leave the use in Scotland still

being a member of the UK Mac it is important we retain membership. That

is putting the UK in smoke. What would happen to the currency union

two what would happen to the currency union? it is in the

interests of Scotland that the UK stays within the union. But you are

now trying to deny the same scenario he is trying to deny. What happens

to your currency union? I'm trying to argue that it is in the interest

of everyone in the UK to stay in the EU. We would want their -- we would

want to be a member. But you have argued that the only way to ensure

that Scotland stays in the EU is to vote for independence. And what a

strong position to be on to argue that point. If we vote for

independence in Britain votes to leave the EU, that is the idea of

currency union up in smoke. Currency unions will take place after we have

the vote. you are saying it could be possible that Britain leads the

European Union and you have a currency union with the UK? How

would that supposed -- how would that work? we think keeping the UK

in the union is an important thing to do. Will you back the SNP demand

that the British government formally approaches the European commission

and asks for its guidance on what the process should be? You are

seeing she should publish the legal advice. I will not back calls from

the SNP that will bring us one step closer to independence. We should

stick with the UK and stick with the pound. We will have two me that

there. - - we will have two leave it there. A few weeks ago he was about

to head to Rome to elect a successor to Benedict the 16th.

Which means today Cardinal Keith O'Brien could have been Pope.

Instead he is a broken man will stop he has been told to quit his home in

East Lothian and go to exile. During his time as Britain's most

senior Roman Catholic cleric and leader of the Scottish Catholic

Church Cardinal Keith O'Brien was never far from the public eye. Since

stepping down in February amid allegations of inappropriate

behaviour towards priests dating to the 19 80s he is rarely seen. Now

the Vatican says he is leaving Scotland altogether, spending

several months away for the purpose of spiritual renewal and clear. But

the journalist who broke the story about the Cardinals conduct says

this will not help the Church. Does not matter whether he is in Scotland

or not. This is about due process. This is about giving recognition to

the people who have made complaints about his behaviour. If the Catholic

Church think that by putting him out of our site for a few months that

will put him out of mind, they are mistaken. The Cardinal's fall from

grace came after it was revealed that three priests and a former

priest made allegations against him. He later said that his standards

have fallen with the standards expected. The revelation came just

days after Cardinal O'Brien joked about his chances of becoming Pope

and of a happy retirement to this Church House in East Lothian.

is no knowing what God make do, but I will be more than happy to get

back to Edinburgh. To retire, yes. Today a friend of the Cardinal said

he was prepared to fight the Vatican happen. The Vatican says it will

agree any condition regarding the future arrangements of Cardinal

O'Brien. I enjoyed by Stephen McGinty of the

Scotsman who writes on Church matters.

# Wrote I am joined now by Stephen McGinty.

The Vatican has said, out. Effectively. Cardinal O'Brien had

left initially, but had returned. The only person in Church terms who

can tell Cardinal to do is the Pope will stop when he reappeared and

announced that he would continue with his retirement plans, the

president of the bishops conference pointed out what had happened. We do

not know if this was preplanned, or whether because he was back on the

front pages, forced the Vatican to take action. Can you stop someone

being a Cardinal or is it like being president of the latest state?

Technically the Pope can remove the Red Hat from him. It is unlikely,

but he does have the power to do that. But the most likely thing with

the that pressure may be put on him to voluntarily resigned. Even that

is not likely will stop is this wise, the way they are handling

this? If we are going to have a new approach, flinging them out of the

country is not the best way to do it. He is not being given another

diocese, which is what happened in the past. Openness and

accountability might be more in order. The bottom line is we will

not see a full documented report published by the Catholic Church.

Should there be an enquiry? My understanding is there will not be

an enquiry. He has admitted what happened. Because of that there was

no need for an investigation. My understanding is that they are

waiting, the Pope has made this decision to send him away for a few

months, and eventually they will have to find some way to bring him

back to Scotland. Looking at this from the other side, there is an

opportunity for the Catholic Church to handle this in a more transparent

way. Some people would argue that the fact that the Pope has said that

this is what is happening and has been a public announcement, the last

thing - - the last time this happened was in the 1990s, but even

in that case the Red Hat was not removed will stop - -.

They had a discussion between 1962 and 1965. That was the second

Vatican council. The laity would say that this should be discussed.