29/05/2013 Newsnight Scotland


29/05/2013

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 29/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

bit like the gold standard. It magnifiers your competitiveness, or

:00:04.:00:14.
:00:14.:00:23.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: A manifesto for a socialist idyll.

:00:23.:00:25.

Alex Salmond's vision of independence has been criticised as

:00:25.:00:30.

indy lite. To take on the so-called vested interests of the Crown,

:00:30.:00:33.

landed interests and high finance, there's a call for a more radical

:00:33.:00:35.

alternative, but how realistic is this, and even more critically, who

:00:35.:00:41.

would vote for it? Good evening. The husband and wife

:00:42.:00:44.

economist team Jim and Margaret Cuthbert have declared it's not

:00:44.:00:46.

feasible that anything approaching independence can emerge from the

:00:46.:00:49.

referendum. They argue that policies, such as keeping the pound,

:00:49.:00:52.

bind Scotland into the rest of the UK. The couple, regarded as

:00:52.:00:54.

respected economists by the SNP, feel only genuine independence can

:00:54.:01:04.
:01:04.:01:13.

Next year's independence referendum is all about what kind of nation we

:01:13.:01:18.

want Scotland to be. Plenty of evidence points towards aspirations

:01:18.:01:23.

for what is often referred to as social justice, but how does going

:01:23.:01:29.

it alone get you there? Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has

:01:29.:01:36.

tried to sum up her frustrations with the unions by talking about a

:01:36.:01:42.

young girl referred to as Kirsty. Her life is predetermined and she

:01:42.:01:48.

becomes a welfare statistics before dying 10 years younger than her

:01:48.:01:53.

richer neighbours. For the SNP the argument at the centre of the case

:01:53.:02:03.
:02:03.:02:04.

for independence is making the lives of Scots better. It is also

:02:04.:02:08.

about making it life and fairer. But questions are being asked

:02:08.:02:14.

whether that vision can be achieved under the vision of independence

:02:14.:02:17.

currently on offer. Economists Jim and Margaret Cuthbert said that

:02:17.:02:23.

even if there is a yes vote, the current monetary policy could leave

:02:23.:02:32.

little room for manoeuvre. Staying in the UK currency union, there

:02:32.:02:41.

will be strings attached. It will restrict the ability of the

:02:41.:02:48.

Scottish government to manoeuvre. There is also the question of the

:02:48.:02:56.

interest rate and the exchange rate. That would not be set in Scotland's

:02:56.:03:01.

primary interest. We do need to improve social justice and this is

:03:01.:03:06.

becoming an even more pressing situation right now because when

:03:06.:03:13.

you look at the distribution of income in Britain, it is one of the

:03:13.:03:19.

worst in Europe. We need to look at growing the economy so that we will

:03:19.:03:25.

have that opportunity to give opportunity to others, and in the

:03:25.:03:29.

way that the neo- liberal policies have worked in Britain, that is not

:03:29.:03:37.

anything we want to be attached to. Critics of the SNP's current policy

:03:37.:03:45.

are now referring to a referendum paradox. Policies like keeping the

:03:45.:03:52.

pound or tired Scotland into a fiscal policy would-be been made of

:03:52.:03:59.

the UK. It has also been argued that a socially just Scotland does

:03:59.:04:03.

not go hand in hand with policies like cutting business tax. There

:04:03.:04:10.

are many in the SNP who believe in a socially just Scotland to do not

:04:10.:04:16.

support this tax haven policy, but equally, the SNP to have people who

:04:16.:04:20.

support that view. Jim Mike Hall and Nicola Sturgeon cannot both be

:04:20.:04:30.
:04:30.:04:36.

right. But others say the Scottish government is on the bright track.

:04:36.:04:41.

The notion of a monetary union is a way to go. There is a lot to gain

:04:41.:04:46.

for both economies. Overall, most people in England to trade but

:04:46.:04:52.

Scotland don't want to go through the hassle of changing currency and

:04:52.:04:56.

bank accounts and currency exchanges to do business. It is

:04:57.:05:01.

plainly much easier for all of us if we stick with what we have got.

:05:01.:05:11.
:05:11.:05:12.

Today, the Yes Scotland campaign tour Scotland how they should

:05:12.:05:17.

spread the word to their friends. All of Scotland's parties, no

:05:17.:05:20.

matter where they sit on the political spectrum, say they have

:05:20.:05:26.

the nation's best interests at heart. It will be up to the voters

:05:26.:05:32.

to decide whether the future lies in the union or as an independent

:05:32.:05:36.

country. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by

:05:36.:05:38.

Professor Gregor Gall, who edited the book Scotland's Road To

:05:38.:05:40.

Socialism, which contains left-wing contributions on both sides of the

:05:40.:05:43.

constitutional debate, including a chapter from the Cuthberts. Here in

:05:43.:05:45.

Glasgow is Iain McGill, a Conservative businessman who

:05:45.:05:48.

supports Better Together, and Sarah Jane Walls, a businesswoman who's

:05:48.:05:58.
:05:58.:05:58.

on the advisory board of Yes Scotland. Thank you for joining me.

:05:58.:06:01.

Is the socialist aim still a realistic one? You have written

:06:01.:06:07.

about the current situation of neo- liberal domination. I think it is

:06:07.:06:10.

realistic and the reason I would say that is that on both sides of

:06:10.:06:16.

the argument in terms of being a for the maintenance of the Union

:06:16.:06:20.

and for independence, both the mainstream campaigns like a

:06:20.:06:23.

provision of detail that would be convincing for their campaigns for

:06:23.:06:28.

their end ideals. Therefore, the contributors in this edited for,

:06:28.:06:33.

whatever side they take, they actually outlined what they are in

:06:33.:06:37.

favour of and how you can get there. When they use the term social

:06:37.:06:42.

justice, they use it in a meaningful way. The problem is that

:06:42.:06:48.

Labour and the SNP used the term in a vacuous way. There is a big

:06:48.:06:52.

contribution to be made from those that contributed to this book and

:06:52.:06:58.

have fully with the kind of publicity it will get, those

:06:58.:07:08.
:07:08.:07:08.

arguments will get a wider airing. You point out in the book that it

:07:08.:07:12.

is on a pro independence and pro- union, but arguing for social

:07:12.:07:17.

justice. You have written about gaining credibility among speak

:07:17.:07:23.

mass of citizens, but it is an uphill struggle now, isn't it? In

:07:23.:07:27.

the days after the death of Margaret Thatcher, there was talk

:07:27.:07:32.

about Thatcher's children. Have we not all been converted? People

:07:32.:07:38.

really are voting for left-wing parties. The reason why the left

:07:38.:07:43.

lacks credibility is because of what it has done to itself. The

:07:43.:07:47.

Left can regain its credibility if it is able to connect with the

:07:47.:07:53.

concerns of the mass of ordinary citizens. Much argument that has

:07:53.:07:57.

been made in various outlets is that if the left is to do that, it

:07:57.:08:05.

will be over material conditions rather than some of the fringe

:08:05.:08:11.

interests that some of the left are interested in. If the mass of

:08:11.:08:15.

citizens can be convinced that they would be better off in their living

:08:15.:08:19.

conditions, then I think there is more mileage to be gained there.

:08:19.:08:28.

That is true for both sides. The question is, which one will be

:08:28.:08:32.

ultimately more convincing. That will be an important dimension in

:08:32.:08:40.

the debate. You will be voting Yes in autumn next year. What kind of

:08:40.:08:47.

Scotland do you want to see? You are a successful and prosperous

:08:47.:08:53.

business woman. I did not start that way. I want a Scotland that

:08:53.:08:58.

looks after its young, it sick and its poor. I think the power was we

:08:58.:09:05.

have currently in Scotland, we have done well with them. Things like

:09:05.:09:10.

free prescriptions and more importantly for me, free education.

:09:11.:09:14.

Without having free education, I don't think I would have been able

:09:14.:09:23.

to prosper as well as I did. So, for me, more social justice, but

:09:23.:09:29.

also Scotland is to be put back on the map. Scotland was a country of

:09:29.:09:35.

innovators. We invented things, we were a country where we had no fair.

:09:35.:09:40.

We were the first to do things and I want to see that again. I want to

:09:40.:09:50.
:09:50.:10:04.

see industry here and I want us to America and Sweden? The high taxes

:10:04.:10:09.

of Sweden but the low spending of America? I think if they get it

:10:09.:10:12.

right it is realistic. I am not a politician so cannot give you

:10:12.:10:18.

details on that but, for example, if Corporation Tax is reduced then they

:10:18.:10:23.

figure that has been flying about is 3%. 3% lower than the rest of the

:10:23.:10:29.

UK. What that does is, or what we would hope that would do, is

:10:29.:10:34.

encourage big business into Scotland and away from The City. That would

:10:34.:10:40.

generate more jobs and create more tax. Personally, while that

:10:40.:10:47.

happened? -- will that happen? I would hope we have a government who

:10:47.:10:52.

can do their sums and make that happen. For me, I want to see us

:10:52.:10:56.

being able to take the controls and actually use the resources we have.

:10:56.:11:00.

Ian McGill, hearing that, an independent Scotland that is

:11:00.:11:04.

pro-business, that would let business succeed, would you vote for

:11:04.:11:09.

independence if you thought your business might succeed? I think

:11:09.:11:16.

there is no coincidence that he is Scotland are putting up credible

:11:16.:11:24.

businesspeople. They are -- that is quite a desirable thing. The idea

:11:24.:11:29.

of, great, let's have low taxes in Scotland. Absolutely, that speaking

:11:29.:11:33.

my language, I want low taxes across Britain. That is what excites me. I

:11:33.:11:36.

know that it is not actually possible and not actually about to

:11:36.:11:41.

go with what is being -- not actually practical with what is

:11:41.:11:48.

being proposed. With these economies coming out today with this monetary

:11:48.:11:53.

union, we are not going to be able to take Corporation Tax three

:11:53.:11:56.

percentage points less than them without their agreement and they're

:11:56.:12:00.

not going to agree to it. I quite like the idea of tax competition

:12:00.:12:03.

because when there is competition and tax it invariably drives down

:12:03.:12:08.

and that, to me, is a positive, good thing. What is being proposed by the

:12:08.:12:13.

Scotland a the SNP, that is not possible or practical. Extrapolating

:12:13.:12:20.

it out of it, to have this big welfare state in a country where

:12:20.:12:27.

taxes are going down and down, fantastic. The UK are going to take

:12:27.:12:30.

their stone and then we will take hours and then they will take theirs

:12:30.:12:35.

and it was no money to pay for the things that you see are so vital and

:12:35.:12:38.

fallible like the free education and prescriptions that you want. It has

:12:38.:12:43.

to be paid for. -- vital and valuable. What do you make about

:12:43.:12:46.

that and the main point is that the Cuthberts were making that the

:12:46.:12:49.

freedom of an independent Scottish Government, their freedom of

:12:49.:12:54.

movement, would be spent scripted -- restricted by the rest of the UK?

:12:54.:13:01.

think there are a few points there. Firstly, if we are just looking at

:13:01.:13:06.

reducing Corporation Tax, that is just one policy and just a policy

:13:06.:13:09.

that we could look at if we were independent. We could choose to do

:13:09.:13:15.

that. Currently, we cannot. It is one of the few iron clad policies we

:13:15.:13:19.

have in independent Scotland, we will seek to take Corporation Tax

:13:19.:13:24.

down 3%. That is one of the few. Only if that is going to be

:13:24.:13:27.

economically sustainable and do what it needs to do. We're not going to

:13:27.:13:31.

do that and not big money from it. It has to encourage growth and

:13:31.:13:33.

business here. There are steps that need to be taken before Bridges

:13:33.:13:39.

taxes. Gregor, what do you make hearing these arguments? What do you

:13:39.:13:43.

make of that it comes to be independent debate. -- independence

:13:43.:13:48.

debate? We need only look back to the experience since the financial

:13:48.:13:52.

crisis to know this is a weak argument, a house built on sand. The

:13:52.:13:58.

argument from the SNP and Labour in British white terms that if you grow

:13:58.:14:00.

the economy it will generate sufficient tax revenues that can pay

:14:00.:14:06.

for the welfare state, that is not the aged between 11. I do not see

:14:06.:14:13.

that economic growth, is that Thatcher is coming back -- economic

:14:13.:14:17.

growth of that stature is coming back. We need to have not just real

:14:18.:14:22.

inflation of the economy but when that growth comes about the fruits

:14:22.:14:24.

of that need to be distributed and that meant the state must play a

:14:25.:14:29.

much bigger role. I do not think it is possible to have, as you said

:14:29.:14:33.

earlier, the American type of deal regulated neoliberal economy on the

:14:33.:14:39.

one hand and social provision that is provided in another of -- a

:14:39.:14:41.

number of Scandinavian countries. That is a square that cannot be

:14:41.:14:45.

circled. The issue is that we want to reinflate the economy but not

:14:45.:14:49.

through tax breaks to those who are already rich. So, is it tax increase

:14:49.:14:55.

you want? I think we would like to see a progressive tax system but

:14:56.:15:00.

especially one that does not have holes in it were many companies can

:15:00.:15:04.

legally and illegally avoid their taxation responsibilities. If those

:15:04.:15:08.

that have the greater resources and society were taxed at a sensible and

:15:08.:15:11.

progressive level then I think we could be talking about providing the

:15:11.:15:16.

kind of welfare state that we would all aspire to live in. You have

:15:16.:15:19.

heard that critique, a more right-wing economic policy. When we

:15:19.:15:23.

look at devolution, Scots tend to vote for more or less bringing

:15:23.:15:30.

parties. Do you not think it is maybe a more socialist Scotland --

:15:30.:15:33.

that may be a more socialist Scotland would be more

:15:33.:15:37.

representative of Scotland? People know very well, the example in

:15:37.:15:44.

France recently, the French like a fairly socialist guy to lead it. He

:15:44.:15:49.

hiked all the taxes right up. Business led the country. They fled

:15:49.:15:52.

the country because they weren't prepared to pay these high taxes and

:15:52.:16:00.

now France's in a bit of a pickle because of that. That would be the

:16:00.:16:04.

one thing, there are lots of reasons I do not want to see an independent

:16:04.:16:07.

Scotland, but one of the fears is that businesses would leave because

:16:07.:16:12.

we were in a high tax Scotland. That puts the socialist view in a bit of

:16:12.:16:16.

a problem. Finally, that is a fear of the more right-wing. How do you

:16:16.:16:21.

answer, of course, the question that people like Nicola Sturgeon want a

:16:22.:16:25.

more fair and just to Scotland whereas Jim McCall wants a low tax

:16:25.:16:30.

Scotland. It is the essential conundrum, isn't it? We can go round

:16:30.:16:32.

and there's lots of different ways and there are many ways to look at

:16:32.:16:36.

it. We don't want large companies not paying their dues to us. We

:16:36.:16:39.

don't want them coming over here and being in Scotland and not paying for

:16:39.:16:45.

being here. What we do want is to create jobs and get the economy

:16:45.:16:49.

moving. This is not about letting big corporations not pay tax. There

:16:49.:16:53.

are other things to look at as well, such as looking at our

:16:53.:16:58.

renewable energies. We need to be investing into that so that we can

:16:58.:17:01.

actually start creating industry. Currently, Scotland has something

:17:02.:17:11.

like 25% of the whole Europe's wind potential. We need to start

:17:11.:17:15.

capitalising on that now. These are the types of things that we need to

:17:15.:17:20.

be investing in. It is not just reducing tax and putting it up, that

:17:20.:17:26.

is to simply debate. There are lots of different sides to this. We will

:17:26.:17:30.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS