Browse content similar to 29/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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bit like the gold standard. It magnifiers your competitiveness, or | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
:00:14. | :00:23. | ||
Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: A manifesto for a socialist idyll. | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
Alex Salmond's vision of independence has been criticised as | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
indy lite. To take on the so-called vested interests of the Crown, | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
landed interests and high finance, there's a call for a more radical | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
alternative, but how realistic is this, and even more critically, who | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
would vote for it? Good evening. The husband and wife | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
economist team Jim and Margaret Cuthbert have declared it's not | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
feasible that anything approaching independence can emerge from the | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
referendum. They argue that policies, such as keeping the pound, | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
bind Scotland into the rest of the UK. The couple, regarded as | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
respected economists by the SNP, feel only genuine independence can | :00:54. | :01:04. | |
:01:04. | :01:13. | ||
Next year's independence referendum is all about what kind of nation we | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
want Scotland to be. Plenty of evidence points towards aspirations | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
for what is often referred to as social justice, but how does going | :01:23. | :01:29. | |
it alone get you there? Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
tried to sum up her frustrations with the unions by talking about a | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
young girl referred to as Kirsty. Her life is predetermined and she | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
becomes a welfare statistics before dying 10 years younger than her | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
richer neighbours. For the SNP the argument at the centre of the case | :01:53. | :02:03. | |
:02:03. | :02:04. | ||
for independence is making the lives of Scots better. It is also | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
about making it life and fairer. But questions are being asked | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
whether that vision can be achieved under the vision of independence | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
currently on offer. Economists Jim and Margaret Cuthbert said that | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
even if there is a yes vote, the current monetary policy could leave | :02:23. | :02:32. | |
little room for manoeuvre. Staying in the UK currency union, there | :02:32. | :02:41. | |
will be strings attached. It will restrict the ability of the | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
Scottish government to manoeuvre. There is also the question of the | :02:48. | :02:56. | |
interest rate and the exchange rate. That would not be set in Scotland's | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
primary interest. We do need to improve social justice and this is | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
becoming an even more pressing situation right now because when | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
you look at the distribution of income in Britain, it is one of the | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
worst in Europe. We need to look at growing the economy so that we will | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
have that opportunity to give opportunity to others, and in the | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
way that the neo- liberal policies have worked in Britain, that is not | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
anything we want to be attached to. Critics of the SNP's current policy | :03:37. | :03:45. | |
are now referring to a referendum paradox. Policies like keeping the | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
pound or tired Scotland into a fiscal policy would-be been made of | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
the UK. It has also been argued that a socially just Scotland does | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
not go hand in hand with policies like cutting business tax. There | :04:03. | :04:10. | |
are many in the SNP who believe in a socially just Scotland to do not | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
support this tax haven policy, but equally, the SNP to have people who | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
support that view. Jim Mike Hall and Nicola Sturgeon cannot both be | :04:20. | :04:30. | |
:04:30. | :04:36. | ||
right. But others say the Scottish government is on the bright track. | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
The notion of a monetary union is a way to go. There is a lot to gain | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
for both economies. Overall, most people in England to trade but | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
Scotland don't want to go through the hassle of changing currency and | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
bank accounts and currency exchanges to do business. It is | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
plainly much easier for all of us if we stick with what we have got. | :05:01. | :05:11. | |
:05:11. | :05:12. | ||
Today, the Yes Scotland campaign tour Scotland how they should | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
spread the word to their friends. All of Scotland's parties, no | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
matter where they sit on the political spectrum, say they have | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
the nation's best interests at heart. It will be up to the voters | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
to decide whether the future lies in the union or as an independent | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
country. I'm joined now from Edinburgh by | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
Professor Gregor Gall, who edited the book Scotland's Road To | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
Socialism, which contains left-wing contributions on both sides of the | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
constitutional debate, including a chapter from the Cuthberts. Here in | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
Glasgow is Iain McGill, a Conservative businessman who | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
supports Better Together, and Sarah Jane Walls, a businesswoman who's | :05:48. | :05:58. | |
:05:58. | :05:58. | ||
on the advisory board of Yes Scotland. Thank you for joining me. | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
Is the socialist aim still a realistic one? You have written | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
about the current situation of neo- liberal domination. I think it is | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
realistic and the reason I would say that is that on both sides of | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
the argument in terms of being a for the maintenance of the Union | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
and for independence, both the mainstream campaigns like a | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
provision of detail that would be convincing for their campaigns for | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
their end ideals. Therefore, the contributors in this edited for, | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
whatever side they take, they actually outlined what they are in | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
favour of and how you can get there. When they use the term social | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
justice, they use it in a meaningful way. The problem is that | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
Labour and the SNP used the term in a vacuous way. There is a big | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
contribution to be made from those that contributed to this book and | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
have fully with the kind of publicity it will get, those | :06:58. | :07:08. | |
:07:08. | :07:08. | ||
arguments will get a wider airing. You point out in the book that it | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
is on a pro independence and pro- union, but arguing for social | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
justice. You have written about gaining credibility among speak | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
mass of citizens, but it is an uphill struggle now, isn't it? In | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
the days after the death of Margaret Thatcher, there was talk | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
about Thatcher's children. Have we not all been converted? People | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
really are voting for left-wing parties. The reason why the left | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
lacks credibility is because of what it has done to itself. The | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
Left can regain its credibility if it is able to connect with the | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
concerns of the mass of ordinary citizens. Much argument that has | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
been made in various outlets is that if the left is to do that, it | :07:57. | :08:05. | |
will be over material conditions rather than some of the fringe | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
interests that some of the left are interested in. If the mass of | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
citizens can be convinced that they would be better off in their living | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
conditions, then I think there is more mileage to be gained there. | :08:19. | :08:28. | |
That is true for both sides. The question is, which one will be | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
ultimately more convincing. That will be an important dimension in | :08:32. | :08:40. | |
the debate. You will be voting Yes in autumn next year. What kind of | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
Scotland do you want to see? You are a successful and prosperous | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
business woman. I did not start that way. I want a Scotland that | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
looks after its young, it sick and its poor. I think the power was we | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
have currently in Scotland, we have done well with them. Things like | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
free prescriptions and more importantly for me, free education. | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
Without having free education, I don't think I would have been able | :09:14. | :09:23. | |
to prosper as well as I did. So, for me, more social justice, but | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
also Scotland is to be put back on the map. Scotland was a country of | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
innovators. We invented things, we were a country where we had no fair. | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
We were the first to do things and I want to see that again. I want to | :09:40. | :09:50. | |
:09:50. | :10:04. | ||
see industry here and I want us to America and Sweden? The high taxes | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
of Sweden but the low spending of America? I think if they get it | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
right it is realistic. I am not a politician so cannot give you | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
details on that but, for example, if Corporation Tax is reduced then they | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
figure that has been flying about is 3%. 3% lower than the rest of the | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
UK. What that does is, or what we would hope that would do, is | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
encourage big business into Scotland and away from The City. That would | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
generate more jobs and create more tax. Personally, while that | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
happened? -- will that happen? I would hope we have a government who | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
can do their sums and make that happen. For me, I want to see us | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
being able to take the controls and actually use the resources we have. | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
Ian McGill, hearing that, an independent Scotland that is | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
pro-business, that would let business succeed, would you vote for | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
independence if you thought your business might succeed? I think | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
there is no coincidence that he is Scotland are putting up credible | :11:16. | :11:24. | |
businesspeople. They are -- that is quite a desirable thing. The idea | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
of, great, let's have low taxes in Scotland. Absolutely, that speaking | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
my language, I want low taxes across Britain. That is what excites me. I | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
know that it is not actually possible and not actually about to | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
go with what is being -- not actually practical with what is | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
being proposed. With these economies coming out today with this monetary | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
union, we are not going to be able to take Corporation Tax three | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
percentage points less than them without their agreement and they're | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
not going to agree to it. I quite like the idea of tax competition | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
because when there is competition and tax it invariably drives down | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
and that, to me, is a positive, good thing. What is being proposed by the | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
Scotland a the SNP, that is not possible or practical. Extrapolating | :12:13. | :12:20. | |
it out of it, to have this big welfare state in a country where | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
taxes are going down and down, fantastic. The UK are going to take | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
their stone and then we will take hours and then they will take theirs | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
and it was no money to pay for the things that you see are so vital and | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
fallible like the free education and prescriptions that you want. It has | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
to be paid for. -- vital and valuable. What do you make about | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
that and the main point is that the Cuthberts were making that the | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
freedom of an independent Scottish Government, their freedom of | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
movement, would be spent scripted -- restricted by the rest of the UK? | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
think there are a few points there. Firstly, if we are just looking at | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
reducing Corporation Tax, that is just one policy and just a policy | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
that we could look at if we were independent. We could choose to do | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
that. Currently, we cannot. It is one of the few iron clad policies we | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
have in independent Scotland, we will seek to take Corporation Tax | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
down 3%. That is one of the few. Only if that is going to be | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
economically sustainable and do what it needs to do. We're not going to | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
do that and not big money from it. It has to encourage growth and | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
business here. There are steps that need to be taken before Bridges | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
taxes. Gregor, what do you make hearing these arguments? What do you | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
make of that it comes to be independent debate. -- independence | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
debate? We need only look back to the experience since the financial | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
crisis to know this is a weak argument, a house built on sand. The | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
argument from the SNP and Labour in British white terms that if you grow | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
the economy it will generate sufficient tax revenues that can pay | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
for the welfare state, that is not the aged between 11. I do not see | :14:06. | :14:13. | |
that economic growth, is that Thatcher is coming back -- economic | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
growth of that stature is coming back. We need to have not just real | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
inflation of the economy but when that growth comes about the fruits | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
of that need to be distributed and that meant the state must play a | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
much bigger role. I do not think it is possible to have, as you said | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
earlier, the American type of deal regulated neoliberal economy on the | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
one hand and social provision that is provided in another of -- a | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
number of Scandinavian countries. That is a square that cannot be | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
circled. The issue is that we want to reinflate the economy but not | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
through tax breaks to those who are already rich. So, is it tax increase | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
you want? I think we would like to see a progressive tax system but | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
especially one that does not have holes in it were many companies can | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
legally and illegally avoid their taxation responsibilities. If those | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
that have the greater resources and society were taxed at a sensible and | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
progressive level then I think we could be talking about providing the | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
kind of welfare state that we would all aspire to live in. You have | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
heard that critique, a more right-wing economic policy. When we | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
look at devolution, Scots tend to vote for more or less bringing | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
parties. Do you not think it is maybe a more socialist Scotland -- | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
that may be a more socialist Scotland would be more | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
representative of Scotland? People know very well, the example in | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
France recently, the French like a fairly socialist guy to lead it. He | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
hiked all the taxes right up. Business led the country. They fled | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
the country because they weren't prepared to pay these high taxes and | :15:52. | :16:00. | |
now France's in a bit of a pickle because of that. That would be the | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
one thing, there are lots of reasons I do not want to see an independent | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
Scotland, but one of the fears is that businesses would leave because | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
we were in a high tax Scotland. That puts the socialist view in a bit of | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
a problem. Finally, that is a fear of the more right-wing. How do you | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
answer, of course, the question that people like Nicola Sturgeon want a | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
more fair and just to Scotland whereas Jim McCall wants a low tax | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
Scotland. It is the essential conundrum, isn't it? We can go round | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
and there's lots of different ways and there are many ways to look at | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
it. We don't want large companies not paying their dues to us. We | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
don't want them coming over here and being in Scotland and not paying for | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
being here. What we do want is to create jobs and get the economy | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
moving. This is not about letting big corporations not pay tax. There | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
are other things to look at as well, such as looking at our | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
renewable energies. We need to be investing into that so that we can | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
actually start creating industry. Currently, Scotland has something | :17:02. | :17:11. | |
like 25% of the whole Europe's wind potential. We need to start | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
capitalising on that now. These are the types of things that we need to | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
be investing in. It is not just reducing tax and putting it up, that | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
is to simply debate. There are lots of different sides to this. We will | :17:26. | :17:30. |