20/02/2014 Newsnight Scotland

and Cheltenham put it on their curriculum, then OK, let's talk

about choice, but we are not there yet.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, there's celebrity endorsement, and

then there's David Bowie. But whether you're a fan or not, does

any of it make the slightest bit of difference when it comes to deciding

how you're going to vote? Good evening. On the face of it, it's

absurd that Kate Moss speaking the words of David Bowie at a glamorous

music industry awards ceremony should have any impact at all on the

referendum debate. But an awful lot of people have been speaking about

it, and writing, broadcasting and tweeting about it. So is the

campaign just desperate for a little glamour, however vicarious, or do

the campaigners have hopes or fears that celebrity endorsement could

have a serious impact? We'll discuss that shortly with an all star cast,

but first Huw Williams reports. The award might not have been a

surprise. And the winner, somewhat predictably, is Mr David Bowie. But

the acceptance speech was, firstly because it was read by Kate Moss.

Kate comes from Venus and eye from Mars. So that is nice. And secondly

because of that now famous last line. Thank you very much. Scotland,

stay with us. Politics is sometimes called showbiz

for ugly folk. Today, the two worlds collided. The chamber will want to

join me in congratulating Eve Muirhead in the rink, winning the

bronze medal at the Winter Olympics. Perhaps that is a demonstration that

we all can be heroes just for one day.

Britain have won the bronze medal at!

At Holyrood was not finished yet. -- but Holyrood. Now that's David Bowie

has come out for the union, can the first Minister explain to us why

David Bowie is preposterous, bluffing and booing. He's not the

first levity to back Better Together. Let stand together and not

let wrangling KERS be divided. Yes Scotland has its stars, too.

In the past 15 years we have become stronger economically, socially,

culturally and globally. The world is waiting for us.

And they know that Scotland is ready. Even taking the message to

the heart of New York. Why not try and see what happens? Life is just

about moving forward. For those reasons, if I could vote, I would 40

yes. Celebrity, politicians, media elites... Celebrity endorsements can

go badly wrong. The most high-profile would be someone like

Tiger Woods, who has presented a particular image through

endorsements. That image is then revealed by the media to be

inaccurate and suffers badly. The flip side is that you can have,

particularly in the US, celebrity endorsements who then move into the

political arena, from Clint Eastwood to Arnold Schwarzenegger. There is a

way to which they can be that movement. It has not occurred yet

much within the UK. But perhaps that is something we should keep an eye

on for the future. Celebrity is moving into that political arena.

Quite exposed. This is not an opening shot for David Bowie's

political career? I expect at 67 any political ambition he may have maybe

behind him. I expect that was not the driver of the intervention.

Interestingly, some celebrities choose not to use television

interviews to influence others. I try and keep a way out of it. I do

not want to be an influence. I do not want to influence anybody. A lot

of people take your word like it is spun gold. I do not want to

influence anybody. So why shut up. I think the Scots will come to a good

conclusion. In the referendum, they will get what they deserve. What

about last night's intervention? Would it really make a difference?

He does not actually live in this country so why do not see why he

should have an opinion. He lives in New York now so where do not see why

he should be butting in will stop I am not sure where his background is.

Although he is a clever man. Those of us of a certain age know that

from 35 years ago. He is a clever man and he has probably researched

it. They have a right to say what they feel but people should be able

to make their own minds up themselves. Some people might get

swayed a bit. I do not see why we should be interested in David

Bowie's opinion but eyelid in England so perhaps my opinion does

not count that much either! One thing we know now is that after

expressing his concern over constitutional changes, David Bowie

is a firm supporter of Better Together. Right?

I'm joined by Moray MacDonald, who runs the Scottish end of PR

specialist Weber Shandwick. Jenny Lindsay is a performance poet who

speaks tonight for the National Collective, a pro-independence arts

group. And in London the singer and political activist, Billy Bragg.

Jenny Lindsay, I'm curious, what do you make of David Bowie? Well,

obviously he is a legend. In terms of what he said, to be honest, I

mean, to me, he was not campaigning in any way. He was making a

throwaway comment through the medium of Kate Moss. In terms of how much

of an impact what he said will have, way. The fact that he did that...

You would expect nothing less. He has been famous throughout his

career for backing controversial ideas. And you have to wonder, was

this a clever way of making sure that he was a dominant voice that

came out of the awards. He certainly is. He has dominated the media. From

a PR point of view, you could argue he has been successful and that

might help him sell albums this year. Willie Bragg, what did you

make of it? And was pleased to hear it. Our hope that some younger pop

stars watching might think to themselves, well, he has got all the

front pages from making a political comment. Maybe I should start doing

that? I would love to see that. As a PR man, do you think that these

things have the slightest impact? I do not think they have a huge

effect. The one thing that this kind of intervention does, and are only

so many celebrities who are big enough to this kind of fuss, I

mean, if one direction had done this, they might have caused a fuss.

But do not think it has an impact generally on how people would

actually vote. The one positive thing that can come out of it is

about getting groups who might not be so engaged in the political

discussion to engage and think about it more. In fact, there was research

done for the European marketing Journal that put that thesis forward

that it was not necessarily changing people's votes, but this type of

celebrity backing can get people who are normally disengaged with the

process more engaged. I can see that with the Arctic Monkeys.

David Bowie is a huge act. He appeals to an older generation and

within that generation there are plenty of of undecided people who

may not vote. The last election there was less than 60% of people

voting. If there are interventions like this, from whatever aspect, it

can only be a good thing. Do people take it seriously? I suspect not.

Another piece of research in the States demonstrated when celebrities

ens doed it had no effect and the main effect was on the opposite

campaign having a negative impression of a celebrity making the

endorsement. You were trying to come in? I think he has had an incredible

effect on the debate. He has made Alistair Darling look hip. Who would

have believed that? Just by that intervention. Celebrities have made

interventions, Robbie burns was a celebrity when he went to Edinburgh.

An English newspaper offered him a gig, you know, Flower of Scotland

was written by a celebrity, this has been way, I think your thesis he has

made Alistair Darling look hip needs some development. I mean the point,

is that bow you comes from the late 20th century when music was the only

social medium open to us if we wanted to talk about anything. That

was the only opportunity I had when I was 19. Now young people if they

want to say something they have so many media #0e7 open to them on the

internet. Music no longer carries that vanguard role in society, and I

think Bowie's intervention has reminded us how powerful it can be.

What do you think? Do you think it has any effect? In terms of what

MORI was saying it can add something to the debate in erms of getting us

talking and adding sparkle and comedy, I mean, I think when thing,

one thing that has come out of his speech, is a lot of punning going

on, on Twitter, which you know, a bit of comedy is fine. Somebody is

telling me, a late breaking info you are a David Bowie fan? Yes, of of

course. You don't agree with him on this particular thing? You don't

resent the fact he... No, I don't resent, I don't resent anybody

voicing an opinion of sorts, I mean, do think what he said was not so

much an opinion, as a sort of instruction, and I think that would

be useful is if people sort of put forward their views on the Scottish

independence debate were more engaged with what that debate is

about, which is democracy and self determination, it is not about

drifting off into the North Sea, and, I suppose, sort of following on

from what Moray was saying about adding the sparkle. I think what

cases like this do highlight is... The campaign is is really led by the

grass roots, by ordinary people, organising sessions, by cultural

activists really. I take your point, but if that is true, why do you

think it is that both sides in this, both the yes campaign and the better

together campaign, are happy to parade any celebrity they can get

their hands on? I think, to be honest with you, perhaps what we are

talking about now might highlight why that might be, think that

celebrity endorsements are one thing, having a celebrity saying I

am voting yes, or no, but the real important work is done by the people

who use their celebrity, or the fact they are well-known or renowned,

playwrights or poets, to become cultural activists. That, a rather

keys into what I was going to say to Billy Bragg, you are in a different

position, because you have been a political activist and tried to use

your music to further political causes throughout your career. That

is what Jenny is talking about. That is a different thing from what David

Bowie is making a remark is about? David doesn't have form in these

issues I have been writing about a national identity for the last

decade, initially in response to the rise of the British National Party

in England, but the debate is about the Scottish identity and the way

the Scottish identity has changed over the past 30 year, for those of

us in England who are looking at ourselves and thinking, how do we

find that way of sort of a new sense of self? How do we come together?

Whether it is yes or not for independence, Scotland is definitely

changing in its sense of who... We are watching and thinking how does

it happen? Having tried to be an activist through your music s as

well as producing music which I know you hope people will listen to even

if they don't agree with your politics, do you feel you have been

successful, and if so, how? Well, it is hard to measures it is very hard

to measure that kind of thing. Music doesn't change the world, people

change the world. It will be decided by the Scottish people in September,

but music does have a role to play, it can offer people a different

perspective. It can encourage people, we are not, musicians are

not as Jenny was saying as cultural activists we are not here to lead,

but we are here to point the way. I think that is the most we can co-.

Does that still work is this you seem to be implying a few minutes

ago, that role for music had to a large extent gone? I think in the

way young people think about musicians, it is no longer, the only

social media available to them. People got on to Twitter, I was

following that David Bowie punning hashtag lasting night. That is how

people were expressing their response to Bowie, rather than

writing to the NME which sounds like a Stone Age thing to do, doesn't it.

The important thing is more people can take part in the debate, when it

was only people who could get up on stage and sing, that is a high bar.

Now with the internet, everybody can make their contribution, obviously

you have to deal with negatives there as well. But broadly, I think,

the debates I have taken part of in the internet, since I started

speaking in fayre of Scottish independence they have been

positive. Putting your PR hat on for a moment. Given both side are in

this debate are keen to claim any individuals or businesses that will

come out on one side or the other, what do you advice a business coming

to you and saying is we are not sure what to do, we feel, we feel one way

or the other but should we say it? What do you say? This is something

we advice a lot of businesses on. And it is a tricky one, I mean, if a

business has a fundamental concern, that independence or lack of

independence might impact them, by hundreds of millions of pounds or a

big issue for them, then they clearly should take a stance,

because that will impact their business. If it is just because

people in the board on some Chief Executive has a general view that

maybe we should be going this way, my advice would be to try and stay

clear of it. It is a very vicious debate and it will be more vicious

over the next few moneys. There is no real reason for any business to

get involved in that, unless they can pick a real business reason for

it. I advise then to stay out of it. All they will get is negative from

one half of the campaign and their chances of having a real impact on

that, on the actual vote are very very slim.

Now, Jenny, the completely different approach taken by another sainted

celebrity, Billy Connolly, who in that we saw in that interview

saying, I think it is up to people in Scotland. People sometimes follow

what I am saying he made a joke, I don't want that to happen. Is that,

what do you make of that approach? I think that is valid. It is

completely a personal choice. In terms of the, of the yes side of the

campaign, and national collective which is the part I am involved

with, it is not a case of sort of lining up tally list of celebrities

who we want to endorse, a yes vote. It is about finding voices and

offering a platform for people who have something to say and want to

say it. This campaign is exceptionally exciting and it is

about people, it is about democracy and it is about the grass roots, and

those are the voices that we want to hear from, grass roots artist, grass

roots music, and poets. Only last night we had an open session in

Edinburgh which was attended by about 40, 50 people, this is people

who are voting yes, but also undecided people, coming along,

hearing music, story, hearing personal journeys to a yes vote and

engaging with that. That kind of thing is going on all across the

country. It is largely unreported, obviously. Which is a shame, but it,

that is going to make the difference. What do you make of

Billy Connolly's stance on this? It is a different one, but it is, it is

also quite sensible, he worries that his status who as a celebrity will

be taken seriously by people, if he spoke out, and would somehow

influence them, he thinks it's a bad thing, a pretty reasonable point of

view isn't it? I don't think it is much of a stance. I don't think you

can call it a stance, it is more of a sitting out of the debate. I

respect that, but you know, the gentleman from the PR company was

talking about the business case, people like David Bowie, people in

my industry, poet, artist, creative people, we, you know, we don't write

from the pocket like business does, we are not thinking about what is

going on in the pocket. We are trying to write from the heart. I

believe the Scottish independence debate will be decided by the heart

of Scotland rather than the pocket of Scotland, I think we have a

contribution to make. Right. You are snorting quietly in

the background. To say the music industry is not about money is

nonsense. You are talking about the record industry there, I am talking

about those of us who write songs and go gigs. David Bowie has made a

lot of money and he is looking to make more. Jenny's point is more

important. It will get big news store I are, we are interested in

tittle-tattle. The way the referendum will be won or loss is

how people on the ground vote. It is about how the parties the manage the

data and get people talking to each other. If the parties can get

communities and individuals and neighbours to speak to even, that

will be more powerful than people and how they vote. You are on the

deside. Yes You are our celebrity coming out for yes. For the sake of

balance you are our celebrity coming out. I will have to stay in the

undecided camp. You are now undecided, you have switched? Billy

Connolly is already having an effect. Thank you. A quick look at

the front-pages. The Scottish Daily Mail says the fears grow over a yes

vote. 30,000 jobs cut in a vast shake-up and a picture of the

Ukraine. That is all from me. We will be back next week, until then,

good night. Good evening. After a chilly night

and maybe a touch of frost in places, Friday is going to be a

bright day for most of us, with occasional shower, some will be

heavy. There will be could be hail and thunder. Scotland and Northern

Ireland. Northern Ireland, and many of these western and