16/06/2011 Newsnight


Paul Mason reports on the latest from Athens as a new Greek cabinet hold emergency talks. And how much do we know about the new al-Qaeda leader? Presented by Kirsty Wark.

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 16/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



There $25 million on his head. Zairzairzair is the new Al-Qaeda


leader. Tonight, exclusively we hear from his sister, who says he's


not the savage men he is portrayed to be. He knows not that style at


all, he's not that style at all, even now.


Also tonight, Greece on the brink, the epicentre of a Euro-crisis how


close are they to defaulting on their ever-increasing debt.


Greek people have made many sacrifice, they have a limit, that


beneath this limit we can't live. Here in the studio, the Greer


perspective on the crisis, should they ditch the euro.


Is the heat going out of the battle on climate change, our science


editor is here. Some scientists think a less active sun may buy the


time we need to engineer our way to a cooler planet. Collier and


Campbell celebrating 50 years of dazzling design.


Al-Qaeda, now we have a face on the monster. The man to be the


strategic brains behind Al-Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri has been given


command according to jal jas year and, Al-Jazeera, he trained as a


doctor and surgeon, and thought to be in hiding along the border


between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Middle East experts are divideds


too whether he has the ability to unite the different faction that is


make up Al-Qaeda. We have had exclusive access to Al-Zawahiri's


sister. For years the chief idealist and


tactition of Al-Qaeda, righthand man of Osama Bin Laden, and the


operational brains behind the deadliest attacks. Ayman Al-


Zawahiri is now confirmed as its commander.


I believe, from my own experience is Al-Zawahiri is more extreme than


Bin Laden. The man so skilled at getting


people blown up used to be a doctor in Cairo. He opened a clinic, a


private clinic and because he's very nice and he's supports the


poor people, a lot of poor people and poor families gathered in his


clinic. They started to talk about how far the Muslim people are


depressed and suppressed in this country. In 1981, after the


assassination of President El-Sadat, hundreds of Islamist suspect,


including Ayman Al-Zawahiri were arrested. We believe in our


religion, in m the practice and we tried our best to establish this


Islamic state and Islamic society. He was cleared of plotting El-


Sadat's assassination, but jailed for holding arms and tortured.


state security used to take people, just to show them, Ayman Al-


Zawahiri, in the prison, they used to hang him and beat him and expose


him to everything that can give him pain, using electricity, water,


whatever. On the surface you would not expect Al-Zawahiri to become a


radical. Certainly not committed to violence. He came from the upper-


classs of Egyptian society. We want to speak to the whole world. What


really radicalised him was the court experience, you can see from


the court experience that he's becoming a leader of men. Then the


vicious treatment that was methed out to him by the large - meted out


to him by the large Egyptian Security Service who is would


torture him in his cell. After his release, Ayman Al-


Zawahiri moved to Afghanistan where the mujahideen were fighting the


Soviet occupation. Years later, his Egyptian-Islamic Jihad group,


joined forces with Al-Qaeda. He lacked Bin Laden's charisma, but


his anti-western vision was wider, and his organisational skills


greater. Al-Zawahiri he is one of the few people who deal with


organisation as a weapon, not just a structure. From my own experience


I met with just a few people, they understand the difference between


organisation as a structure or organisation as a lethal weapon.


Many intelligence sources believe Ayman Al-Zawahiri was the main


tactical planner of the 9/11 attacks.


But now, ten years into America's war on terror, the organisation


he's taking over is a different, less centralised one, autonomous


branches of Al-Qaeda have sprung up in Iraq, North Africa and Yemen.


He is the best known figure in Yemen now appears to have more


influence among potential Jihadi, particularly in the best than Ayman


Al-Zawahiri. In many ways Al-Zawahiri is the


wrong man at the wrong time. Because what Al-Qaeda needs right


now is an inspirational leader, who, through his words and charisma can


inspire attacks abroad. They don't need a general at a time when they


don't have an army. They don't need a manager at a time when there is


nothing to manage for Al-Qaeda central, because they do not have


troops that would necessarily be able to orchestrate another 9/11.


So what I anticipate will happen is that there will be a competition,


almost an interfactional war between the affiliate, especially


Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and the central leadership of Al-


Qaeda in Pakistan. My hunch, at this point is, is Al-Qaeda in the


Arabian Peninsula will be more successful. But others think Ayman


Al-Zawahiri can still command discipline throughout the


organisation. According to man who once knew him


well, he may be planning an operation in North Africa this


autumn, involving the possible execution of French hostages to


embarrass Nicolas Sarkozy. Qaeda's next move, I have very


strong information, it's very solid, without a doubt. The next move is


going to be like, it starts from North Africa. They will use the


AQIM, they will utilise the French hostages. They are already under


their control. The AQIM, they will make sure President Sarkozy he will


never ever make it for the second term as President of France. It's


going to be a very good chance for Al-Zawahiri to express his


authority as a real leader of Al- Qaeda, dealing at the international


stage. Whether or not that's true, it is clear Al-Zawahiri wants to


regain momentum in Al-Qaeda's struggle with the west. But his


ability to do so may be gradually slipping away. Joining me now is


our diplomatic editor Mark Urban. You heard the view there would be


competition in the film. How do you think Al-Zawahiri will be received


among the faithful? There was some time between the death of Osama Bin


Laden and this announcement, a lot of people in the agencies that


follow the counter terrorist scene was saying there was division in


the organisation. It is true to say that Al-Qaeda, in its form that we


know it, is partially its creation. It is the folding in of the


Egyptian Jihad into the organisation that made it what it


is. At this point the thing could explode in a sense, the factional


tensions in it could come to the fore. The main threat to him, I


think, is the so-called Libyan group, three particular Jihadist


leaders who are said to doubt his direction and to be restive. The


truth is, in situation like this, where the organisation is being


pursued, hunted by the Americans in the way it is, pursued in many Arab


countries too, the fact that he has such a long history at the top of


the organisation, knows where individuals are, bank accounts,


means of organising and communication channels did give him


a decided advantage. How will he be viewed and what tactics will be


employed by the western intelligence agencies? There is


undoubtedly this line of analysis that goes, he will try to impress


the organisation with a spectacular, that line could have been applied


to anybody who would have taken over at this jucture in the wake of


the killing of Osama Bin Laden. I think there will be quiet faction


in the agencies, because he has some name recognition, and for


agencies that are looking to defend their budgets and their efforts in


the wake of the killing of Bin Laden, for someone like Al-Zawahiri,


who is a Jihadist heavyweight, to have taken over, is, in that sense,


useful. While his very devisiveness as a character within the militant


underground, is also useful if that tips off some inside struggle or


increasingly disobedient action, if you like, from Jihadist leaders in


the other parts of the Arab world, supposed to owe him loyalty.


Tomorrow the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French


President, Nicolas Sarkozy, will meet in Berlin to try to find a way


out of the Greek crisis threatening to engulf the euro. A new bailout


is still being negotiated. Tonight n at then, the Government still


seems in danger of unravelling, a cabinet reshuffle is under way with


a vote of confidence to come. We are in the capital witnessing this


vicarious moment. In the morning after the riot there


is still tear gas in the square. The battle signs around St Agnes


Square are all too evident and so is the political tension. Here is a


building covered in graffiti, splattered with missile, fire


damage around the back, the graffiti says "police murderers


German collaborators", the problem is, this is the Greek finance


ministry. This is the place that lost control of Greece's debt, and


is now struggling to put things right. And just on its doorstep, a


story in microcosim of what has gone wrong. These women have been


camped here for 16 days. They are hardly anti-capitalist, they are


lawyers and accountants, who have passed exams to become tax


collectors in the ministry. But there is no money to find them jobs.


It is unpredictable right now. Our future, even our close future is


unpredictable, in three months or six months we don't know what will


happen. We hope, of course, that's the best we can do. The irony is,


Greece needs more tax collectors, its tax revenues have fallen this


year, even after it pledged to increase them. Her message to the


Finance Minister, stark. He has to take some measure, of course, but


he has also to know that the Greek people have made many sacrifices,


and that they have a limit that beneath this limit we can't live.


He has to respect us. Meanwhile, in parliament, the


comings and goings of politicians signalled drama.


Rocked by yesterday's riots, and with his parliamentary majority


evaporating, the Greek Prime Minister, began a reshuffle, and


tried to stiffen his MPs. TRANSLATION: Now is the time when


we cannot shirk our responsibilities. Now is the time


when we must get to work. Now is the time when we must send a


message to our society: now is the time when we must say yes to facing


up to major decisions, here and now, all of us.


International leaders rallied round. The IMF lift add deadline that


would have forced Greece into a debt default as early as next week.


President Sarkozy made this plea. TRANSLATION: I am calling on


everybody to demonstrate their spirit of responsibility, and a


sense of necessary compromise on which the euro is created. We need


to defend our single currency, we need to defend our European


institutions. This is our task, to do everything to preserve the


stability of the eurozone, because without stability, no growth is


possible, and we are all affected and we must take these decisions


now. But the fundamental problem remain,


the new Greek austerity plan, the people are hostile to it, and the


centre right opposition party has rejected it. Today, its economics


chief told me why? It needs to be a new way of thinking, that has three


key elements, measures to restart the economy we suggested seven key


pillars, we made significant suggestions in an aggressive growth


plan. Without measures to restart the economy, we believe the


privatisation will not in themselves produce the result they


need in order to restart the economy. That is one side of the


problem, here is the other, in St Agnes Square, where the protest


camp has survived the street battle, they are holding out for much more


than a reshuffle or coalition Government. They want the IMF to


leave. If we get national Government, is that enough for


people here to just disperse and go back to normal? Absolutely no. The


thing is, and the thing that George Papandreou and the rest of the


people in the system of governance don't seem to realise, this is not


about a single person standing as an MP, people have had enough with


the entire system of Government, this would include the others, the


journalists and the businessmen all supporting them. What today has


been about, essentially, is the politicians trying to regain the


initiative from the protestors, but because the economic pain just will


not go away, neither will this. George Papandreou, a man on the


receiving end of an entire nation's anger and discontent, will have to


endure some more. Paul stayed up for us to be live in


Athens tonight. Any closer Paul to a proper Government or even an


austerity plan. Mr Papandreou's problems started


today when he tried to reshuffle the Government, as I understand it,


various ministers weren't picking up the phone quickly enough. The


problems increased as one member of his party tried then to call a


meeting to unseat him. That speech you saw there was Papandreou seeing


that challenge off. He's now stablising his own party in


parliament, although with a much reduced majority. What will now


happen, he will get through the weekend, appoint a cabinet that


agrees with him, but then the fun begins. The austerity package is


not really acceptable, either to the Greek people, or to the


opposition, or to many of his own MPs. And what this IMF pullback


from the brink has done today is really give everybody time to ask


themselves the question, could they re-think the austerity package.


What the centre right's objection to it is, is it does the cuts, it


does the privatisation, but it has nothing to stimulate growth. What


they are suggesting, which will not be music to the ears of the


European Central Bank, nor to German voters, is tax cuts to


stimulate growth. It is straight out of the right-wing economics


play book, and it makes sense to them. But it is something that Mr


Papandreou has written out of the picture, in his negotiations with


the European Union and the IMF. Tell me, what do you think


President Sarkozy, and indeed the IMF, what is the key thing they are


concentrating on? What's concentrated their minds is what


went on right behind me, that is the Greek parliament, and St Agnes


Square in front of it, yesterday. And the international community are


kind of convinced that the Greeks were prone to rioting and striking


and these were basically left-wing protests, organised in a quite


tokenistic manner. What has happened in the last month, is this


so-called indignant movement, where up to 20 or 30 towns across the


country, they have seen their town squares occupied, not by leftist,


but by people, such as you saw in my report. Ordinary middle-class


and working-class people, who just don't want this. When you see that


depth of anger, that depth of opposition to austerity, and then


you see it break out on to the streets, utterly violently as it


did, with all the international media here, it has changed the mind


of the international community. The IMF just said why are we pushing


Greece towards a default when its own people are prepared to push it


far more vigorously towards the same solution, I would still say we


are nowhere near a solution here that is acceptable to the Greek


people. And the Greek people are, I think, going to push this to a


default scenario, whether the politicians want it or not.


Joining me now is Pryce, the Greek- born former head of the UK's


Government's economic service. Matina Stavis, a former editor of a


Greek newspaper based in London, and Sajjan Gohel, member of the at


this tank for European policies. Are your heads in your hands, where


is the real world in Greece, there has to be an austerity package?


There has to be, but with an end game. If you are a politician


trying to make people take so much main for such a long time, you must


explain to them what exactly it is you are doing, this Government has


failed to do that. These people on the streets aren't stupid, they


know what is going on, will there be a functioning Government to


deliver the austerity package? is a good question, there may not


be. We will see what happens with the vote of confidence, happening


at the beginning of next week, there will be a debate about this,


we will still end up with serious change, where possibly a Government


of National Unity may materialise. That Government of National Unity


will fare no better if that scenario is one that could happen


now, people in the studio saying they don't want that, we want to


push forward to default? I'm not sure they are saying default, the


reprecussions would be horrendous, people would lose their money it


would be terrible. Is Greece governable at the moment? Anything


is governable, you need to be serious, you need to have experts


and to be able to communicate and negotiate, and unfortunately this


particular Government has been failing on these fronts. The Greek


people are perreceiving them as just being the yes - certificate


receiving them as being the question men.


- perceiveing them as being the yes men.


The Greeks know they don't have to deliver the austerity package


because the IMF will bail them out? They hold the thump cards, they


have realised what is at stake is the euro. The whole project might


collapse. It is right, isn't t the Greeks hold the trmp card, the


Germans - trump card, the Germans won't force this? Only in the short


run, they can force the Germans and others to pay up once now, a second


time next year, sooner or later the German tax-payers and others will


revolt, that will put the euro into jeopardy. The euro can live without


Greece, but not without Germany. will be tougher for exports without


countries like Greece and Ireland. There is some kind of Machiavellian


reason for keeping Greece there. the exports of Germany to Greece


are a small proportion of our exports. German exports are booming


going to China and India and the emerging markets. The peripheral


Euro-areas is not a growth area for Germany, that is not the key


problem blem. - problem. It may not be now, but it was a few years ago.


With the creation of the euro, the Greeks, Portuguese and the Irish


have been buying German goods, and they have kept the euro rather low,


without that we will end up with a strong euro that will kill the


locomotive that is Germany right now. Do you think Germany will


eventually give up on Greece? immediately, but if it goes on like


this if the Greeks say they don't like austerity, they want more


growth and to be able to consume more, that cannot be paid by the


Germans and the other northern Europeans. There may be a push by


the politicians to pay now, but not tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.


This is a highly one dimensional view of things, apart from the


weakness or strength of the euro, apart from the matter of exports,


we have to consider the exposure of German banks and other European


banks to Greek and other peripheral debt. Commerce bank has failed to


offload Greek debt it has on the book, that is a serious liquidity


problems, how will the banks deal with that? The German Government is


certainly able to bail out the banks and Germany banks. Another


bailout, you don't like bailing out Greeks or Irish or Portuguese s


that not a moral hazard problem. There is certainly a moral problem,


just as every country bailing out your own banks is one thing,


bailing out somebody else abroad is a different thing. That would be in


any country in the world no different. Vicky Pryce, there is


surely also a problem with simply flight of capital from Greek banks


at the moment, Greeks are removing their money? We have seen that, it


is a rational thing to do. I don't think we will have a solution in


Greece unless there is a bailout of the banks. The Greek banks need to


be recapitalised and the German banks. It needs to be accepted that


there has to be a solution to the whole issue, that will include,


Greece, Ireland, Portugal, that will require loss, and I'm afraid


the Governments will have to step in and make sure the banks remain


safe, otherwise it will be a serious issues everywhere,


including Germany. Isn't there a problem that if there is political


instability in Greece, and that carries on, there is much less


likelihood of Germany taking a softer line, even of President


Sarkozy pushing this softly line? do believe that sooner or later the


Greeks will have to come up with a credible Government to go on, this


Government has been credible to the eyes of the Europeans and the IMF,


let's make that clear. They have not been credible to the eyes of


the Greek population. We should not be fixating on Greece. It has


already been made clear the systemic nature of the problem,


such a systemic problem must have a systemic solution. One solution is


there has to be rescheduling of some sort, a voluntary, orderly


reprofiling. Again and again? and for all, it has to happen with


a number of other countries. What also needs to happen is the IMF


needs to come up with a long-term, sustainable recovery plan, not a


short-term austerity package, the Greeks then will accept what the


Government is doing and it will be governable. A once and for all


restructuring, would you accept that? What do you mean by that,


cutting the Greek debt, that I think is really what is needed. You


have to realise there is a fundamental difference between


Greece and Ireland and Portugal, Ireland has done everything it has


been asked for, there is no revolution, and it is going well


there. Greece is the only country that hasn't. It is different in


each country, we have the same problem, it doesn't matter where it


is originated. One final thought, is anyone actually in charge in


Europe, is that a major problem? That is spot on, actually. What's


happening in Greece and we are talking about Greece being


ungovernable and thrown in a political crisis a mere reflection


of what is happening in Brussels, I would argue it is Miss Merkel's


position that it is she who should step up and provide that


sleedership, because Germany has reaped the benefits of the euro and


been a regional leader. Angela Merkel has to step up to the plate?


She has her failings, but in Greece we had a precise programme a year


ago that has not been fulfilled. They tried but they couldn't get


the administration to implement it, as was said earlier, Government


revenues were supposed to be up, they are down, expenditure is up,


not a down. With such a Government and such a society you can't deal


with them. Just to confirm that, you alluded to it earlier, you


think Germany will just give up on Greece? They will have no choice,


if Greece continues not to keep its promises. Thank you very much.


Now, we think of the sun as a constant sizzling star. But rather


like most teenagers, the sun gets spots from time to time, and those


spots increase the amount of energy its firing at the earth, apparently


we're going through a particularly unspotty stage, which you might


think would be good news for global warming, that in itself brings more


problems and ones that can't be solved, even with Clearasil. What


is the problem at the moment with all these sunspots, what do they


mean? The first thing you need to know, is the sun has active and


quiet phase, this go in an 11-year cycle. It co-relates with the


appearance of sunspots. That is the dark patches we see here. They are


areas of intense magnetk activity, the more sunspots you have, the


more energy radiated towards the earth and the warmer planet we have.


The fewer sunspots the less energy radiated and a cooler planet. Some


scientists have been reporting that the sun is behaving oddly, it is


unexpectedly quiet at the moment. The quiet nature of the sun isn't a


surprise as such, the sun always goes through this minimum in


activities, what is surprising is how quiet it is. It has been


extremely quiet, at its quietest for 100 years now. The he can peck


station is, looking at the current data, is it will probably continue


to get quieter. The sunspot number will drop and drop. How far it


drops that's still open to debate. This has happened before, most


memorably in the 17th century, when we saw frost fairs on the River


Thames, rivers normally frost-free frozen over. Scientists are saying


that is the most we can expect, much cooler regions of the planet.


The idea that we are entering a global Ice Age is quite far wide of


the mark. But can we think of all of this now, this cooling


cancelling some of the global warming? Not really. Because we


still have the issue of rising greenhouse gas, and if we look at


some of the predictions and modelling into the future, the


suggestion is we could see our planet warm by the end of the


century to anything between 1.5-4.5 degrees. Whatever the sun does


isn't going to be enough to counter that and save from us global


warming. We do need to worry about climate


change, even if the sun was going to compensate over periods of


perhaps decades, then of course what will happen is eventually the


sun will turn round, starting to more active, and then we would be


in a situation with a more active sun and hygiene house gas, that


would be even worse. Some scientists are worried about the


worse, they say we don't have time to persuade people to use energy


more efficiently, or reduce emissions, and what we need to do


now is geoengineer our way out of this. What is geoengineeringing?


This is large scale, sometimes whacky science fiction-sounding


project, very ambitious. We will have a look at the top three.


Number three we have the idea of shielding the earth which firing


giant mirrors into space, basically the idea being that these mirrors


reflect back the sun's radiation into space. We would need many


thousands of these. Millions? Possibly. Number two we have a plan


to deal with the oceans to try to make them more fertile, chucking


human wee into the oceans to make it more fertile to encourage the


growth of plankton, they would absorb CO2 and sink to the ocean


floor when they are dead. We have schemes to suck carbon dioxide out


of the at moss stpee, artificial tree, they would take - atmosphere,


art fix tree, they would take it - artificial trees and they would


take it in and bury T it is called carbon scrubbing, it is used by


divers, that explains the contraption in the studio. It looks


complicated but it is a simple advice to allow dive Tories


rebreathe their own breath. Inside - drivers to rebreathe their own


breath. Inside is soda lime, it is calcium hide drok side, what


happens is the breath is scrubbed clean of carbon dioxide so they can


rebreathe for many hours. Even some of the whacky one there is some


have been tested to an experimental level. Next week the United Nations


IPCC panel on climate change will look at the potential and risks of


the geoengineering ideas. I will expend more energy, I will cross


the studio to be joined from San Francisco by a member of the


steering group of the International Panel on Climate Change and the


chief scientist in from Greenpeace. These ideas of geoengineering, it


is kind of whacky, isn't it? Many of them sound whacky, at first, and


many of them are whacky. I would just like to separate myself from


one comment that was made in the introduction, in that most people


who propose these kinds of options are proposing them because they


feel it is very important to cut emissions deeply, and soon. But


we're afraid these emission, reductions are not coming fast


enough to avoid the risk of catastrophic climate change, so we


need to start looking into other mechanisms that could reduce risk.


What about the idea that you are putting sulphur into the air, you


are jetting up thousands, millions of aerosol, how on earth can that


be good for the atmosphere? In 1991 there was a huge volcano in the


Philippine that is put a lot of material into the stratosphere, and


the next year the earth cooled. And had that amount of material stayed


in the stratosphere, it would have been enough to offset on a global


average basis all of the warming expected for this century, we know


these things can basically work, what are the unintended adverse


effects to investigate. I will talk about that in a minute,


let's talk about firing giant mirrors into space, is that a


realistic option? I think the scale of that makes it a little


unfeasible, you would need to build more than a square kilometer of


satellite every half hour, which I think renders it unfeasible.


The IPCC will be discussing this Weekend, does that worry you, is it


- this week, does that worry you? It is an expression of failure to


talk about tinkering with the earth's climate because we can't


get loft lagging right, it is the position we are in. We are in a


very serious situation, but some of the things we need to do to tackle


climate change are fairly straight forward, and we don't needing to


down this route. Let's talk about them, we raised the possibility of


unintended consequence, what might they be? Geoengineering comes at


range of different possiblities, but quite a few of them involve


impacting on the earth's climate in ways we don't fully understand.


They will almost certainly be differentiating impact, some will


win and some will lose. We could impact rainfall, and cause some of


the problems we are trying to stop in climate change. Even if they


work, even if they can be agreed, we have still got this problem that


we have to keep doing them just to keep the planet stable.


principle is, if human beings contributed to climate change, and


climate change is man made, you think there should be a man made


solution to rectify it? I think dough and I are both in agreement


that the best solution to transform the energy solution into one that


doesn't use the atmosphere as a waste dump. That transition is not


coming rapidly enough to make me feel comfortable. You think


geoengineering will happen? I'm not about to predict the future, I


think that these geoengineering options in a situation where we


have catastrophic climate change might be able to save lives, so we


should investigate whether our well-being could be improved


through these approach, but I do not think these approachs are a


substitute for emissions reduction. Do you let the culprits off the


hook by saying things aren't moving fast enough so we have to up the


ante? This is a danger. For me the most important thing is for people


to think there is an easy technical solution so we don't need to


transform our energy solution, there are risks that these things


could produce the kind of add vrs outcomes we have just spoken -


adverse outcomes we have just spoken about. There is the


potential that famines can be averted if an ice sheet slips into


the ocean or methane comes out of Siberia. We want to know the


options and some may involve drastic things. My worry about the


immediate discussion is we can already see, you tour the websites


you can already see people talking about climate, saying let's not do


any of that difficult stuff, let's do the cheap and easy stuff. Do you


sense the political will is going out of the argument? The political


will can be reignited there are a whole range of things that can


reignite emphasis on political capital around climate change,


including the domestic benefit, when you look at Fukushmia, Libya,


the Middle East, you look at rising gas price, you think maybe there is


a better option, those are the kinds of things we are often


pushing. Thank you very much. You probably


never heard of them, but you have almost certainly slept beneath a


duvet cover bearing one of their designs, or worn a dress featuring


one of their bold patterns. One of the most prolific partnerships ever


produced, the sisters Collier and Campbell, will be celebrated at the


museum. Their designs will be produced for stores such as habitat,


and worn by Yves Saint Laurent. Sadly, Susan Collier, the older of


the sisters, died just as the exhibition was being put together.


I spent the day with the other half of the colourful duo.


It is about life itself, not really a copy of anything, or an idea.


is also about tell ago story. I think that each of these designs


has its own story, and it is part of a narrative. Susan Collier was


just 22, and Sarah Campbell, a teenager, when they began designing


textiles. We grew up in a house where there was just colour on


everything. There was patterns. were completely surrounded by print


of all kinds and weaving, and colour, and cloth, and that was all


just normal. Wielding their paint brushes, they created everything


from curtain material, to cushions, from high treat fashion to couture.


It is something you would want to be with, isn't it, it is beautiful.


Exsub rent. So many of the design - Exuberant. So many of the designs


look pressure, it is hard to believe they were 30 or 40 years


ago. This is where we paint. In the beginning they worked exclusively


for the iconic store Liberty of London, with their front rooms as


the workshops. Even now this tiny artisan space be lies a success


that travels the world. This is the little key that tells us what


colours goes on what screens, these are the colour tabs. Colour is


always very important to us. Our mum used to give us bits of fabric


and paint and ask us to match it, which we were good at. I don't know


how we learned to do it but we did. Was art important, so the most


obvious influence has always been Matisse. I know Susan speaks often


of the Matisse book that my parents had. I remember them coming home,


they had bought a little Ivan Hitchings painting, it was the high


spot of my childhood. We came from a very left-wing family, our


parents' work was very much, I think both of them, in their very,


very different ways, were very creative, very investigative, and


there was never any question Take That's sort of work one does, and


it is perfectly OKment we never had to prove anything to them. Is there


a political overtone to how you think about your work? There is a


view that good design should be available for everyone, if that is


political or just common decency I don't know. I don't know if those


two words go together. They are amazing, they are textile designers


in a true tradition, some how. They haven't succumbed to all the sort


of machinery and the digital things, and photo copiers and this and that,


it is so easy to do on a computer now. Their work is so kind of


really joyous. When you worked with your sister, how did you work


together, how did you do it? was much more the voice of Collier-


Campbell and the public side of us. She was brilliant at managing the


work and getting work and all of that. I suppose I suppose more of


my time was spent painting and drawing. Traditionally. We would


discuss the my nugsia of think of these - the minuscule of any of


these things, the rhythm, the pattern and the harmony. Throughout


the years the sisters designed clothes for themselves, in 1971


Yves Saint Laurent expressed an interest in using their fabric for


his haute couture collection. How much of a step change was it when


Yves Saint Laurent came calling? was a terrific opportunity. He


didn't call to us direct, he was calling through Liberty, we were


working with Al-Libbi of London Prints. It gave us I suppose two


things, one is that he recognised the fun of it and the lovely


painting, and to see what he made of what we did was so full of


energy, so pretty, and it gave us the marvellous opportunity to do a


lot of work around the theme that is he loved. Was he complimentry?


think in the use it was a compliment, yes. I think the


signature of Collier-Campbell has to be colour, the wonderful way in


which the fabrics move, their richness, the heat that comes out


of many of their works, it's so unEnglish, and yet they are


quintessentially English in the way which they build on the traditions


of Morris and others. We are being told that manufacturing in the UK


is on the decline, what do you think about that? I think it is


very sad, I wish it wasn't so, maybe it will grow again. To see


the printing industry, which was such a huge and wonderful industry


in Britain gone, and to think that we live on island made of coal and


surrounded by sea which is full of fish, is pretty sad when we can't


seem to use any of that. I'm sad for it. I think back, even to when


we started and Liberty of London Prints were printing down on the


river Wandall in Merton were William Morris printed, and the


printing sheds were so vibrant and lovely, and the people were hand


printing, and hanging up the cloth in the ceiling of the sheds, it was


a wonderful atmosphere and a lovely place, that is what the printing


was about. On May 7th this year, Susan Collier died. We did decide


to paint her coffin, when I say "we", I painted with her two


drawers, and their two daughters, it was - two daughters, and their


two daughters, it was in the studio, we had to bring it in so it didn't


alarm the neighbours, it was quite a laugh to do it. There was a lot


of fun and a lot of crying at the same time. It was great thing to do.


How does Sarah Campbell see the future of Collier-Campbell without


her sister and working partner of over 50 years? It will be very


different, I can't imagine not having my working partner, who I


have worked with pretty well every day of my life, all my working life,


with me. And yes it will change, because we have other people here


helping us, but we will still be painting, painting, painting, that


is what I love, and that's what I'm good at.


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds


Tomorrow morning's front pages That's all from Newsnight tonight,


we return to the problems in Greece for just a moment. We have obtained


footage of one of the most committed protestors who hasn't


missed a riot for the last three years and always on the frontline,


we think his name is Fido! # There's a voice that keeps on


calling me # Down the road


# It's where I'll always be # Every stop I make


# I'll make a new friend # Can't stay for long


# Just turn around # I'm gone again


# Maybe tomorrow I'll want to settle down


# Until tomorrow # I'll just keep moving on


# Down this road Today's heavy showers are fading


But there's no cloud and rain to come tomorrow. Initially the wetter


weather drives northwards up the western side of the UK, then we


push rain into eastern areas during the afternoon. I don't think there


will be much rain to the east of the Pennine, always wetter in North


West England. Later in the day through the Midland, East Anglia


and the south-east Midlands, the rain will push back the


temperatures, a cool southerly breeze picking up along the south


of England, in the south west there could be evening sunshine in


Cornwall and Devon in the rain. Sunshine in Wales, clouding over


quickly, rain becoming steader and heavier across the Brecon beacon,


heavier rain will clear away from eastern parts of Northern Ireland,


then back into the bog standard sunshine and showers you might say,


it will turn wetter in Scotland as main pushing northward, the far


north not doing too bad. In Inverness, very little rain here,


there will be rain moving into Edinburgh, that rain will continue


on Friday as well. Looking further south the wet weather doesn't


really go away, temperatures 14-15, less cold on Saturday, but there


Will a cabinet reshuffle and emergency talks be enough to ease fears that Greece will default on its debt? Will it end the riots on the streets? Paul Mason reports from Athens. And how much do we know about the new al-Qaeda leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri?

Presented by Kirsty Wark.

Download Subtitles