Browse content similar to 28/06/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
The attempt to bring free market values to health didn't go exactly | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
as planned, will it be any better with higher education. Today the | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
Government promised value for money tables and universities fighting | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
like rats in sack to get hold of the best students. Is this a | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
visionary plan for the future or ideolgical incoherence, we will | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
hear from the universities minister. We will ask two people with very | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
different view points how they see the landscape evolving. The Greek | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
public don't seem awfully keen to be plunged into austerity to keep | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
the euro afloat, the day before the vote they are making their feelings | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
known. Paul Mason is there. We will know in 48 hours whether | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
Greece's parliament has voted for austerity, or, as the people here | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
want, rejected it, and plunged Europe, possibly the world's | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
economy into chaos. In Afghanistan, the British army | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
hauled this 200 tonne turbine for a new dam over 100 miles, in the | :01:02. | :01:09. | |
teeth of vicious Taliban resistance. Mark Urban finds it has never been | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
installed. Instead of a visionary scheme to bring electricity to 2.5 | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
million Afghans, this has turned into an epic of mismanagement and | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
miscommunication. Should a journalist quote people saying what | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
he think they meant to say. Two of print journalism's finest are here | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
to pass judgment. What's not to like about allowing | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
students and potential students to see what they might again from a | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
university degree. Rather a lot apparently, to judge from the | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
resounding chorus of disapproval that met the Government's | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
announcement on the future of higher education today. | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
Universities will be allowed to expand to take more, better- | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
qualified students, and in return, will have to explain what one of | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
their degrees might be worth. There being no-one more Conservative than | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
a liberal, both university teachers and students say it is wholesale | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
vandalism. Before we talk about what university is for, we report. | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
Today's exam question, what on earth can the Government do to sort | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
out higher education? We have got about 4.5 minutes to answer this | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
one. We better crack on. In the Commons today, the top class | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
educations were so much on display. Labour's spokesman, Gareth Thomas, | :02:29. | :02:39. | |
:02:39. | :02:40. | ||
be a rite whist university. It is Carry On Up The Khyber, it is the | :02:40. | :02:48. | |
minister doing the Hattie Jakes. I'm reliably informed that she | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
wasn't in that film. Aside from arguing comedy, he had plenty to | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
say about the plans for England's universities. Above all our plans | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
benefit students, by focusing universities to focus on the | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
student experience. They will have real choice, with better | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
information, with a wider range of institutions to choose from, I | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
commend the White Paper to the House. We already knew in the | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
future universities could charge up to �9,000 a year for students. | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
Subject to satisfying the Office for Fair Access they will help | :03:25. | :03:35. | |
:03:35. | :03:35. | ||
those with poor backgrounds. Today They will know how much teaching | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
they will get and how employable they will be at the end of it. The | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
Government will have 20,000 places for students to complete good | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
quality sources for �7,000 a year or less. And universities will be | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
able to take as many top student, that is with two As and a B at A- | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
level, irrespective of their quota. For the opposition, these changes | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
are driven by saving money. Government didn't have to cut | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
university funding by as much as it did, 80% cuts. That is the reason | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
why so many universities have tripled their tuition fees. That is | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
why the Government has major funding hole in its higher | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
education reforms, and why then today it has sought to drive fees | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
down by threatening the quality of higher education, to help them sort | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
out that funding hole. Fundamentally, the Government wants | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
to change the way that university education is provided, bringing new | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
institutions in, alongside established universities. This | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
might look like a normal university library, it might even sound like | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
one, but it is not. It is actually something that ministers think | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
could be the future. BPP is not like a traditional university, we | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
are so much more. BPP is a private organisation which has 6,500 | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
students studying business and law, and another 30,000 studying | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
accountany. Courses are tailored to what students and their employers | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
want. For example, they can offer three years study crammed into two. | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
Or regional study centres, meaning students don't have the cost of | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
staying away from home. We don't have a God-given right to exist, we | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
exist because students want to come to us, and employers want to | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
sponsor their employees with us. And you have to have that focus. | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
You have to be focused on what is relevant, and the niche we have | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
created in law and finance and accounting, is because employers | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
want it. Their employees want it. There is only really room for a | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
high-quality provision in the UK for the private sector. If you | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
operate at that high-quality level, you will be successful. But the | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
worry for some is the Government's proposal will trigger what is | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
called race to the bottom, with cut price universities offering cheaper | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
and cheaper courses of little value to students or the country. I worry | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
about private providers coming in, the regulation that will control | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
the way in which they operate, if that is striped away, or if that is | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
reduced in any sense, then we're vulnerable then to the fly-by-night, | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
cheap, cut-cost institutions, that will come in purely to make money. | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
The students, I think, will end up suffering as a result of that, and | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
indeed n some case f those companies go bankrupt, it is the | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
taxpayer that will probably have to pick up the bill at the end of the | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
day. There is also another concern, critics worry concentrating too | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
much on the employment prospects of graduates, could damage the ability | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
of universities to produce the creative, original thinkers, who | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
innovate and generate the jobs and wealth. Any way, time's up, time to | :06:47. | :06:56. | |
put down our pens and hand back to the invigilator. | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
The universities' minister, David Willetts is with us now. This is a | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
long-term plan, in 20 years time, what proportion of the school- | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
leaving population do you expect will be at university? We don't | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
have a target, or a central plan to that, I think it should be the | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
result of the decisions of individual young people informed by | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
the knowledge of all the options. More or less than now? I do think | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
there is an underlying trend in advanced can economies for more | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
people to go to university, yes. Probably more at university, and | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
universities themselves, will there be more universities than there are | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
now? Who knows l universities be bigger individually, or more | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
smaller universities. I think well...More, Presumably some will | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
go to the wall? No Government has guaranteed universities' right to | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
carry on. You would be prepared to countenance some universities going | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
to the wall? It has always been the case for successive Government that | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
is could happen. When you are talking about big and small | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
universities, that is a good example of the decision that is a | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
minister doesn't have to make. The size of universities should be the | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
results of student choices and university managers deciding how to | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
run the universities. You are prepared to see some go to the | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
wall? If there is a university, that has not got any student who is | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
wish to go there, there is no basis on which any Government has said | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
that should carry on in existence. In that respect we are sticking | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
with the same view as the previous Government took. What I will say, | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
is universities are going to have to satisfy students if they want to | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
thrive and expand and grow. Isn't the fact of the matter, you | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
have got this all the wrong way round, this is a long-term strategy, | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
devised after you have implemented all the short-term questions, like | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
funding of universities, had you done it the other way round, it | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
would have been more sensible to say there will be these categories | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
of universities, charging these sorts of fees, and they will be | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
entitled to that, and another category who charge fees lower than | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
�7,500 a year, and they are entitled to do something else, why | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
didn't you say that before setting the fees? I have no intention of | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
saying some categories and groups can do this. We are giving more | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
freedom to universities in the first year. We are saying one in | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
four places at university in the year 2012/13, they will be | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
contestable, the money will go with the student. If in future years we | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
wish to see that grow greater and greater. I suggest to you you | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
haven't the faintest idea what is going on. When you said when it | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
came to university fees that in exceptional circumstances fees of | :09:35. | :09:42. | |
�9,000 might be charged, did you imagine that 95% of the | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
universities would be at that level? We believe the average fees | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
of university will be lower. What is exceptional? On this question of | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
our strategy. Let me say, in the White Paper, there is a very clear | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
strategy, which is the money goes to the student, the money then | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
follows to the student to the university they choose, there is | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
far more information than there ever was before, that in addition, | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
universities will therefore be able to focus on the quality of the | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
teaching experience, we think that is a coherent programme which | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
offers a far better deal for students. That is what we believe | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
in. You say it is a long-term strategy, but the fact of the | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
matter is, we see from what's happened with fees, you can't even | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
make a strategy that last trees or four months? What we are proposing | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
today is consistent with what we said last October. These are the | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
long-term consequences of the shift to money going through students' | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
choice, via fees and loans. Of course the students don't pay the | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
money up front, it is only paid back when they are graduates | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
earning more than �2 1,000 a year. It is a liberalisation of the fees' | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
regime, it is more information for student, greater diversity of | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
universities, all that with the aim of offering a better deal for | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
students, because universities focus on higher quality of teaching. | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
I think it is a strategy in the best interest of students. It will | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
be a two-teir system? I think there will be a whole range of different | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
types of universities. It is not going to be two-teir. There will be | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
some people who want part-time education, some people who want to | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
do their course intensively in two years. There will be mature | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
students, three-year campus universities you leave home to | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
study at, a whole range of different types. Different student | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
also want a different type of higher education. When you say in | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
the White Paper, higher education has a fundamental value in itself, | :11:35. | :11:43. | |
that is entirely at odds with the rather mechanistic, functional | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
attitude you seem to take to the future of universities? I know just | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
what you mean. When you are sitting in had daept doing public policy, | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
you think about - a department doing public policy, you think | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
about what is it about, I think every day the purpose of a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
university is more worthwhile than what you can catch in those | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
decisions. We are trying to ensure these incredibly valuable | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
institutions thrive, are autonomous, people go and study at them because | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
what they study is worthwhile in itself. That is the fundamental | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
truth, I try not to lose sight of it, even when you are having to | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
take decisions on the level of fees and loans, and the level of | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
maintenance support. Minister, thank you. | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
With us now are Howard Hotson, professor of modern intellectual | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
history at Oxford University. And a manager of one of the private | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
providers in the world, the London College of Accountany. What are the | :12:44. | :12:52. | |
fees at your college? From 2012 they are �4,500. That is about half | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
a London University's fee, how do you do it? The students won't get a | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
full university experience, in a sense, we will provide a first- | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
class, we believe education but they don't have all the sports | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
clubs and social facilities and a large campus environment that you | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
get in traditional university. Our aim is, in fact, to provide a good | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
undergraduate education for UK students where they can exit at the | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
end of three years without any debt at all. We teach over two complete | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
days in the week, which allows students to then get a decent part- | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
time job, get some good work experience, earn some money. What | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
is there to object to in that sort of institution being part of the | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
mix of higher education? Well a traditional university is something | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
which combines teaching and research. The reason is combines | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
teaching and research is to foster critical thinking, that is supposed | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
to be fundamental. He has explained it is not a traditional university? | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
Why should they be called university, that is fundamental to | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
the definition of a university. do you call yourself that? We call | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
ourselves a business school. I would call ourselves a working | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
university. You don't surely think there is | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
only one model of university, do you? In law, in this country, this | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
has been the definition of the university, and as I understand it, | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
will continue to be the definition of the university in Scotland. The | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
reason being, what is absolutely fundamental and intergral to a | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
university education, is education and critical thinking, and if you | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
abstract critical thinking from the equation, for certain subjects, | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
like accountany, for instance, which should not be about creative | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
accountany, but about following the rules, textbook learning is | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
perfectly adequate. For most of the traditional curriculum of a | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
university, the fundamental objective is to teach students to | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
think critically, you do that by engaging with people who are at the | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
forefront of their discipline constantly. That extends to | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
disciplines like engineering as well? It certainly does. Every | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
discipline at the university of Oxford falls into that category, | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
does it? Every discipline in the university of Oxford combines | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
teaching and research, absolutely. In the traditional university that | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
is fundamentally a part of the equation. I'm just surprised, are | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
we saying it doesn't apply to accounting, finance and business | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
and management. It does as taught at university. These two are | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
disciplines which are constantly evolving, in response to new | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
challenges, that requires people at the forefront of their discipline | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
engaging in research and re- thinking the fundamentals of their | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
discipline. There is a real reek of class prejudice about this? I don't | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
think so. Next time you will be insisting that dons have the right | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
to sit around and drink port after dinner? I'm not suggesting that for | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
certain disciplines textbook learning is not a perfectly | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
valuable thing to be done. I am saying, for the vast majority of | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
the traditional university curriculum, the whole purpose is | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
undermined if what is not being taught is independent of thought. | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
Independence of thought means a different style of teaching than | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
simply textbook learning. What is your real objection to David | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
Willetts reorganising principle in all this? My personal fundamental | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
objection is the opening up of universities to market forces. My | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
view would be that universities have traditionally been funded, | :16:22. | :16:31. | |
whether by the state, or as private begin factions, like the Ivy League | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
systems in the United States, to nuture an environment that allows | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
values to be passed from one generation to the next, without | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
those values being undermined and marketised and monitorised by the | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
market. The most dangerous thing which this new radical, | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
unprecedented experiment in university funding implies, is | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
deliberately engineering the marketisation and monitorisation of | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
the university system, when the whole purpose of universities has | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
been to keep that one removed. is your thoughts on that analysis | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
of a university? I would say we have the same purpose, what we are | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
trying to do is change how people think, and to get them to think in | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
a more analytical way. We are trying to achieve exactly the same | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
ends. At my business school as you are trying at Oxford university. | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
I'm slightly taken aback that you think something else is going on, I | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
hear this textbook learning reference. Do you think accountany | :17:38. | :17:47. | |
is a paradigmatic with the disciplines across education. | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
has been within university education since the 1930s. It is | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
deliberately and directly related to managing accounts, and to making | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
money, where as the traditional university education is not. Is the | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
traditional resentment of people who have to learn a living? I don't | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
think so at all. I'm saying that is one thing universities need to | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
accommodate, and therefore, we study economics, we study business | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
and finance, there is a business school at Oxford University, it is | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
one of the most recent major developments. That is fine as part | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
of a university, but accountany some how isn't? I'm not suggesting | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
accountany isn't, I'm suggesting the marketisation of the system | :18:30. | :18:40. | |
:18:40. | :18:41. | ||
which may work perfectly fine and provide social benefits in a small, | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
private business college such as your's, is not the appropriate | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
model for university. You think that people who have never had the | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
chance of university education should be taxed in order that this | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
style of education can be perpetuated intestify infinitely? | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
Most of the funding for universities should come from a | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
combination of students paying tuition fees, which they do at the | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
moment, and possibly need to be increased, I don't think anyone is | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
disputing that, and the taxes, which they pay, because a | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
university education, amongst many other things, is very often a way | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
of increasing your contribution to the public purse as you work your | :19:22. | :19:30. | |
way up the 40% tax bracket. That is a sum which an accountant should | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
easily be able to work out. If indeed a traditional university | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
education increases your earning power, it also increases your | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
public contribution to the public purse. | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
The birth place of European democracy resounded to the sound of | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
chants, shattering glass and tear gas, as they tried to persuade | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
their political leaders not to accept the terms of the loan they | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
talk. Greece's state is a direct result of its banality and | :20:03. | :20:11. | |
incompetence, and a refusal to agree will timey the further funds. | :20:11. | :20:21. | |
A quiet - timey the further funds. Something has changed, two weeks | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
ago it was a right that more or less brought the Government down, | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
forced the Government to reshuffle, and left Athens lawless for a few | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
hours. None of that has happened today, for two reasons, first, we | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
are seeing the beginnings of a response by the financial community, | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
a coherent response. The second thing is, we are seeing the | :20:44. | :20:54. | |
:20:54. | :20:58. | ||
beginnings, maybe, of competent governance. The beleaguered cops, | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
the angry youth, the tear gas, and the stun grenades. | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
This is Greece, again, on the eve of a parliamentary vote, on which | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
the fate of the euro hangs. For the international finance system, this | :21:17. | :21:25. | |
is the real frontline. MPs from the ruling centre left PASOK Party, | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
asked to stomach austerity on a scale never before inflicted. They | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
voted it through in principle today, at a key committee, but for the | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
European Union, and IMF, in principle is not enough. | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
The new Greek austerity plan will slash pensions, slash the wages of | :21:44. | :21:52. | |
public sector workers, and impose a crisis tax on nearly everyone. So | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
today, a 48-hour general strike, and the union delegations limbering | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
up for a long battle of attrition. But white collar workers have been | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
the bedrock of PASOK's vote, and the pressure on the politicians is | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
huge. The people behind me are a movement not to pay your road toll | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
or your tax, or your electricity bill, what they are chanting is, | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
"remember 1973, remember the revolution". | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
We see people losing their homes from the banks, so this makes | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
people feel, I mean, very, it is a disaster, a social disaster. What | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
do you do, and what has brought you here? I'm an unemployed civil | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
engineer, I'm here because the unemployment of youth is rising up | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
to very high limits, and we don't find any job, you don't have any | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
money, life is very difficult for It is this woman's job to face them | :22:56. | :23:04. | |
down. She's a rising star among PASOK as | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
seats. There is lack of an alternative, it is believed. | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
people, they are people that are fed up, they don't say they want a | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
different Government, they are just fed up. They are fed up with all | :23:21. | :23:29. | |
the measures, they are fed up with the lack of ...They Have pictures | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
of Mr Papandreou with a noose around his neck? They are angry | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
people, but they don't have a solution. They don't provide an | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
alternative. As these pictures beam into the homes of Dutch and German | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
tax-payers, the hand Greece has to play is getting stronger. To those | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
opposed to further bailouts, PASOK says this: Do you think it is only | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
Greek people that will take the pain, what will happen to the euro, | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
what will happen to the eurozone, do you think it will be operating | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
perfectly fine? We are talking in the case of what, a default? We are | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
talking in the case of a default. The threat of default, and images | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
like these of social crisis, have produced, in the last few days, the | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
beginnings of a deal. French banks will bury Greece's debts for 30 | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
years, in return Greece will force the austerity plan through | :24:21. | :24:30. | |
parliament, but will it be the end. Will it be cathartic. It will not | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
be cathartic, or it is not sold to be cathartic, we need to deliver a | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
country that is productive and entreprenurial, that exports. What | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
does Europe need to do? Europe needs to have a quick reactionry | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
system. It doesn't have one? needs to create one then. Clashes | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
like those today have fed off that uncertainty and reached a new | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
intensity. A media van torched, serious injuries, damage on an epic | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
scale. Tomorrow's protest promises to be | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
huge, and with the slimmest of parliamentary majorities, those on | :25:10. | :25:17. | |
the streets still hope to stop the Euro-deal. And so, another day of | :25:17. | :25:24. | |
fire, gas and mayhem in the square. We will know in 48 hours whether | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
Greece's parliament has voted for austerity, or as the people here | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
want, rejected it, and plunged Europe, possibly the world's | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
economy into chaos. By this time tomorrow night, we should know the | :25:36. | :25:44. | |
outcome. We already know the cost. Obviously there has been a lot of | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
trouble in Athens, what has been going on elsewhere in Europe to try | :25:47. | :25:54. | |
to sort this out? Well, look, the European Union and the IMF seem to | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
be getting their act together. The French have been working over the | :25:58. | :26:06. | |
weekend on the idea of French banks taking the lead, as I say, burying | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
Greece's debt. You take it for 30 years, you roll it over, that more | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
or less means it is a non-issue for the rest of my career as an | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
economics journalist. That is a quarter of Greece's debt, the other | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
three quarters are being gently finessed on to the balance sheets | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
of what, states, the IMF, the European Central Bank, there to be, | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
again, managed. Why is this important? Behind me, over the hill, | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
the riot is still going on. There is the Greek parliament, just over | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
the hill. Now the parliamentary arithmetic there is quite tight for | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
Papandreou, maybe four, five votes in it tomorrow. Normally you would | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
be saying look that is quite a problem, even if he wins, how does | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
he implement the austerity, and stop local Governments and unions | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
getting in the way of the austerity. Now, if the European Union and IMF | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
can sort this long-term, Greece gets, and the Greek politicians, | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
like you heard there, get what they want, they get the opportunity to | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
make a major change in this country's economy, and 1989-style, | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
east European change, that just completely reverses the patterns of | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
development for decades. They need space to do that, and to deliver. | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
They resent the fact that they are being rushed along on the timetable | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
of sovereign debt crisis. They need basically some breathing space so | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
they can convince the Greek people, take them with them, and actually | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
go somewhere with this country. We might actually, although tomorrow | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
will be very torrid for the demonstrators and all the | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
journalists here covering it. You saw there what happened to one of | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
our vans. It will be torrid, but it might just be the beginning of | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
something new. Now, gang of suicide bombers | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
attacked an interNational Hotel in the Afghan capital, Kabul, tonight, | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
at least ten time are thought dead. A week after President Obama's | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
gamble to pull thousands of troops out of Afghanistan sooner than | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
expected. We have been investigating the military campaign | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
as a whole, and taking stock of key moments in the bitter battle for | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
Helmand Province, for a BBC documentary going out tonight. | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
All the attention is on the withdrawal. Did the British have | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
any idea what they were getting into? I think it is extraordinary | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
how little thought had gone into it. Talking to all of the people | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
involved, many of them, we found, extraordinary impressions of what | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
they thought awaited them, and what actually came. Now, the current | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
Government is actually quite ready to begin the reckoning of the | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
decision-making, to go into Helmand in 2005/2006, and the extent to | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
which that prejudices the campaign, the House of Commons Defence | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
Committee is also investigating these issues. We are already | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
beginning to pick over what happened. When barely more than | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
1,000 combat troops were sent into an area half the size of England, | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
and told to get on with it, amidst thousands of insurgents, this gives | :29:07. | :29:15. | |
a flavour. We spoke add hornet's nest and they | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
came out biting. We didn't have enough people on the ground. | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
were massively trenched at the time. There was one battle group, pretty | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
much to cover the whole of Helmand. I asked on a daily, weekly basis, | :29:28. | :29:36. | |
for more troops, more capability, more helicopters. I remember saying | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
to the Chief of Defence Staff in 2006 one of his visits, that we | :29:41. | :29:48. | |
needed 10,000 troops to achieve what we set out to do. At what | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
point did NATO realise that the British couldn't cope? Some people | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
were talking about this from as early as 2007/2008. Iraq was a big | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
priority for the UK and the US. The decision hadn't been made to surge | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
in the final months, President Bush sent more troops then President | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
Obama, the very people who last week he announced was pulling back. | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
And so it wasn't really until those decisions were taken that they | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
could really get to grips, and far from the 10,000 troops that Ed | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
Butler, that first British commander was talking about there, | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
we have ended up today with 30,000 troops in Helmand, two third of | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
them American. What we found talking to people involved in this | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
decision making s that the American senior officers are now ready to | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
talk about how they decided the British couldn't cope, and they are | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
being increasingly frank. Let's make no mistake about it, the | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
Taliban had the momentum, broadly speaking in Afghanistan, until | :30:48. | :30:55. | |
probably some time last fall. British forces in he will mand was | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
under- Helmand was underresourced make no mistake, I will leave that | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
to the British leadership to decide how much that was underresourced. | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
American generals decided a major reinforcement was needed in Helmand, | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
putting the Brits in the back seat. Some had been saying it for years. | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
It actually began with me. I began to express to the leadership of the | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
United States of America that this was an underresourced force. | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
Manoeuvre forces, flying machines and intelligence. That did not | :31:26. | :31:36. | |
:31:36. | :31:37. | ||
change until I would say 2010. Of course, when he refers to 2010 | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
he's talking about the surge force that is are now being withdrawn | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
over the next 15 months following that announcement from President | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
Obama last week. In the time remaining for NATO troops in | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
Afghanistan they are desperate to show effect. They are still | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
struggling to do the non-military stuff. And we have been looking at | :31:58. | :32:06. | |
one particular place where their failure to do so has been epic in | :32:06. | :32:16. | |
:32:16. | :32:21. | ||
its scale. High at the northern end of Helmand Province, man and nature | :32:21. | :32:31. | |
:32:31. | :32:34. | ||
have combined to produce this. The Kajki lake and dam came about from | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
an American aid project during the 1950s, NATO wanted to double the | :32:38. | :32:48. | |
:32:48. | :32:52. | ||
power produced by the dam, so far its grand designs have failed. | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
This village just below the dam used to be a bustling market and | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
home to thousands. The people left just before the British came in | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
2006, and have never come back. The US Marines now patrol. It used to | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
be a thriving bazzar, but due to the fighting between the Taliban | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
and the British, because of the intensity of it, all the people who | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
lived and worked in the bazzar moved out. Is it right that there | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
is one person who still lives in this? They have bread maker that | :33:25. | :33:32. | |
supplies bread for the local security, and the marines. | :33:32. | :33:40. | |
Holding on to Kijak, has cost many lives. Soldiers here have to resort | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
to artillery, and even air power to maintain their hold. The Americans | :33:44. | :33:53. | |
inherited the dam and its problems from the British, who held Kij k | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
aki for four years. Now they want to upgrade the dam, install a new | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
turbine and provide two million more Afghans with electricity. | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
will add the third turbine, vacant for two years, the parts of which | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
have been sitting up there since 2008. We will get it in and add to | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
50% the production of the site. It will make it one of the larger | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
facilities in Afghanistan. Was it the British who originally spoke | :34:21. | :34:28. | |
about installing the new turbine by the end of 2007. Today, with this | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
key project still languishing, NATO's chander has told us that | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
this is an object lesson in how not to do things. | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
With respect, I would be careful not to overgeneralise on the basis | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
of one very tough mission, that may have included overpromising and | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
underdelivering in the past. One of the other mandates I brought in, as | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
part of my staff, is we would try to the best of our ability, we | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
can't always help ourselves, we try to under-promise and over-deliver, | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
to avoid the triumphant rhetoric that has occasionally followed some | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
small tactical successes, only to find out they weren't as enduring | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
as perhaps we thought they were at that time. | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
In 2008, the British mounted an operation, one of their biggest in | :35:28. | :35:38. | |
:35:38. | :35:41. | ||
Helmand, in fact, to move a 210 tonne turbine up to Kijaki. | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
It involved more than 3,000 troops. The turbine was broken down and put | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
on low loaders, they crawled up towards the dam at an average speed | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
of barely one mile per hour. The British knew there would be heavy | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
resistance if they tried to fight their way through Kijaki, the | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
village down below me, and bring the village up that road, the 611. | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
They did try to negotiate an agreement whereby it could come | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
peacefully up to the dam. After leaving Kandahar, the convoy | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
travelled through the desert, avoiding the enemy stronghold of | :36:23. | :36:31. | |
sanguine. Around 100 miles into its don Sangin, and around 100 miles | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
into the journey, there was fierce fighting. The Taliban leadership | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
rejected the British offer of a deal to get the turbine through. | :36:39. | :36:47. | |
That produced a battle. The British hailed the turbine's | :36:47. | :36:54. | |
arrival as a triumph. Although they had lost no troops and estimated | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
200 Afghan insurgents had been killed getting there. The military | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
were proud of their achievement and flew in the press. The turbines | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
arrived in Kijaki in these different lorries. They are being | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
unloaded. Although fighting continued around | :37:13. | :37:21. | |
the dam, the Defence Secretary argued it was right to push on. | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
But even today, the turbine parts are sitting unmoved where the | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
British army dropped them three years ago. | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
All of the blood, sweat and tears expended bringing this plant here, | :37:34. | :37:42. | |
have so far proven to be in vain. Instead of proving to be a | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
visionary scheme to bring electricity to two-and-a-half | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
million Afghans, this has turned into an epic of mismanagement and | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
miscommunication between aid organisations and military. So why | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
has the turbine carried up at such cost remained unassembled. New | :37:59. | :38:05. | |
foundations need to be built for it, requiring 500 tonnes of cement. | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
Chinese workers, who were meant to do the work, fled. | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
Since the US Marines took over in Kijaki last year, American | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
commanders have been trying to get the turbine project going again. | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
When did the Americans think they might have it completed? It is our | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
hope that most of the material that is up at the site is reusable. If | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
it is, and we don't have any long lead time items, like transformers, | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
to procure, we should be able to get the turbine installed in 24 | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
months after that assessment is done, some time between 24-30 | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
months from today. Even if that timetable is met, | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
electricity will not reach the Afghans until seven years after it | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
was first promised. But given that Helmand has proven | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
to be a graveyard of optimisim, it may well be, that the project won't | :39:02. | :39:10. | |
even be finished by the time NATO withdraws. | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
When you see words in quotation marks in a newspaper or magazine, | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
what can you assume. An interview is a conversation between a | :39:17. | :39:24. | |
journalist and his or her subject. There is a minor storm in media | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
line - medialand, when a columnist said he sometimes took words | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
uttered by a subject in one context and inserted them into his form of | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
the conversation. He claims other people do the same thing. Nobody in | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
our trade is under the misapprehension of how trusts we | :39:42. | :39:49. | |
are, but what are readers entitled to expect? What is the line between | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
playingism and slieth of hand in journalism. It is a question that | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
Johann Hari, columnist for the Independent is being forced to | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
consider. He was accused on a blog last week of taking quotes from | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
interviewee, and passing them off as being said during interviews. He | :40:09. | :40:19. | |
:40:19. | :40:23. | ||
admitted it was the case. He wrote The admission has provoked much | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
huffing and puffing in the Twitter sphere, over what are, amusingly | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
called, journalistic ethics, those who attack the issue calling it | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
playingism and those who have a more lenient view. Johann Hari's | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
blog has opened an interesting conversation. He said what he did | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
was normal practice, he said ultimately the test he used was | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
this, would the readers mind you did this or prefer it? | :40:52. | :41:02. | |
:41:02. | :41:07. | ||
With us now are two esteemed hacks, Jean Alesi of the Daily - Anne | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
Lesley .r. How serious is this - how serious is this? Deborah and I | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
are friend of Johann's, we admire and like him. But he's been an | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
idiot doing this, it used to happen a lot in my youth, which as you | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
know is a very long time ago. There wasn't an internet, there was no | :41:27. | :41:37. | |
way anyone could check. Now, of course, why the Twitterrerati are | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
up in it. There have been some very funny jokes on it. They can do it, | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
poor Hari is sobbing in a dark corner, he has made an idiot of | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
himself and been caught. In my youth you were never caught. | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
you do it? No, I tell you why I didn't. Actually I was a proper | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
journalist. I used to loathe the people, I would be say in rode | :42:00. | :42:07. | |
deegsia, as it then dRohdesia, as it then was. I would go into the | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
bush with the freedom fighters, I would struggle to get to the facts, | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
and get back to the hotel, I would find my colleagues had never left | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
the bar. We called them the Avon ladies, they were all very | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
interested in make-up, for example, making up stories! I had to do very | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
hard work, I get very annoyed when people do that. The axe you are | :42:30. | :42:36. | |
grinding is pretty rusty now. Have you ever done it? Yes, I have. | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
Was it a serious offence? I did it early in my career, at a point | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
before I realised I shouldn't do it now, I wouldn't do it now. He | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
became a top class newspaper at 23 years old, he didn't spend loot of | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
time on trade papers and local papers. He has learned on the job. | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
He has learned this thing, at not an old age. In full public view, | :43:03. | :43:11. | |
he's not a playingerist, he is not - playingist, he's not pretending | :43:11. | :43:18. | |
to have interview people. It is misrepresentation if they are not | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
the words uttered. There is a interest rate between | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
the viewer and the audience and the interviewer that contravenes? | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
should have attributed his quotes. You really should, this was what I | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
would do. If somebody I was interviewing, who had opineed | :43:35. | :43:44. | |
endlessly in his own books, or her books, And they were actually | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
opining better when they wrote it down or talking to me, I would | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
select the quote, as he once said, not that he said it to me. | :43:54. | :44:04. | |
:44:04. | :44:04. | ||
could call the person and say you prexed this much more clearly? | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
importantly Johann has done over 50 interviews and nobody has | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
complained. It is not the point. However, Jeremy, this would have | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
come to light a lot more quickly, that he was doing something he | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
shouldn't have been, if the subjects of the interviews had been | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
unhappy in the first place. It is material to how it has taken so | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
long for him to learn this lesson. Those interviewees, don't | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
necessarily know anything about the Independent, so they wouldn't have | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
read it, a lot of people wouldn't have read it. We have agreed this | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
is irrelevant, the crucial thing is the relationship between the writer | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
and reader, can they trust it. Is there a difference between what a | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
news reporter is expected to do, and what a columnist, or an | :44:50. | :45:00. | |
:45:00. | :45:00. | ||
essayist is gettinged? I absolutely disagree, totally. What enrages me | :45:00. | :45:10. | |
is you have people like Bruce Chapwin, and that guy who made | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
travel book, who pretended these were accurate reports of the people | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
they met, they weren't, they were made up, we are supposed to deal | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
with in facts. I think there is a difference between an interview and | :45:21. | :45:31. | |
:45:31. | :45:31. | ||
a profile, in a profile, in the case of Gideon Levy, he quoted | :45:31. | :45:39. | |
books he quote - quotes those books. I think that is one of the ways | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
there has been a confusion. He hasn't deliberately behaved | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
unethically, he hasn't tried to trick people or pull the wool over | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
people's eyes, he has just learned a hard lesson in public. Many, many | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
years ago, there was a showbiz editor, who did an interview with | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
some dim American starlet, she complained to the paper saying I | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
never said any of that. He said to me, what is the young hussy | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
complaining about, you gave her my best quotes. That's fair enough | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
point to end. That's it for now. Back tomorrow at | :46:18. | :46:28. | |
10.30, Wimbledon permitting, until 10.30, Wimbledon permitting, until | :46:28. | :46:38. | |
:46:38. | :46:55. | ||
The hot and humid weather finally left our hours, the thunderstorms | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
that resulted are off into the near continent. A dryer start to | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
Wednesday, sunshine around as well, a little on the cool side, compared | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
with recent days. Refreshingly cool for some of you. Through the day | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
shower clouds brewing up, the heavier showers will transfer from | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
North West England to north-east. Sunshine between them. Bigger gaps | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
between the showers further south, many of you staying dry, | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
temperatures near normal for the time of year, it lasts 21-22. Mid- | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
to high teens across South-West England and through Wales, shower | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
clouds breaking in the morning. Even here we will see decent dry | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
and sunny weather a bit of a westerly breeze. Northern Ireland | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
will see the showers heaviest in the morning, in the afternoon fewer, | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
lighter showers expected. Even here showers will be expected 17-18, a | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
good scattering of showers across Scotland into the afternoon, | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
heaviest by the end of the day. Looking at the differences between | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
Wednesday and Thursday, not a huge amount on the face of it. | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
Temperatures roughly the same values, still showers continuing | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
into Thursday, they will become lighter and much well scattered. | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
More in the way of dry weather from Thursday. A ridge of high pressure | :48:04. | :48:08. |