05/07/2011 Newsnight


05/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman, including the interception of messages left on Milly Dowler's phone.


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Tonight, reviled, condemned and now boycotted by advertisers, the

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pressure is piling on Rupert Murdoch's News International, as

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the police confirm that the parents of the two little girls killed in

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the Soham murders have also been contacted by the hacking inquiry.

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We have also learned they have been in touch with former police officer

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and Crimewatch presenter Jackie Hames, to warn her, she too may

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have been hacked. All this blamed on an organisation this country's

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politicians have gone out of their way to court. Murdoch veteran,

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editors and Tony Blair's spin doctor are all here.

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For 160 years it has been the heart of British Rail way engineering,

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why has the Government decided to buy new trains, not from derby, but

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from a bunch of Germans. It just seems crazy that it could

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close, and if it does, Britain will lose its last toe hole in an

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industry that we created. Can the transport minister explain why he

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thinks this a better way to spend tax-payers' money.

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Also tonight. We have been degenerated, not regenerated.

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A catastrophically broken promise to the people of Stoke-on-Trent.

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How did a Labour pledge to rehouse people end up with things worse

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than before. Where are the new houses? We haven't got any.

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If it wasn't so nauseating it would be comdal, tonight the News of the

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World - comical, the News of the World journalist accused of hacking

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Graeme McDowell's phone - Milly Dowler's phone has asked for

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privacy for his family. There have been immediate commercial

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consequences, the Ford car company is pulling Tuesdaying from News of

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the World, others are thinking of doing the same. We have been told

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about a major new development tonight in the phone hackinging

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story, it centres on two police detective that is appeared on the

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BBC Crimewatch programme. Dave Cook, investigating a murder case, and

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Jackie Hames, one of the presenters, it is thought the News of the World

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believed they were having an affair, and they were married at the time.

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There is no question that their phones were accessed. It is the

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first stage of investigating exactly what happened and what this

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meant. We understand the police investigating hacking at News of

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the World have found confidential information on the two detectives

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in the miles of Glen Mulcar, the private detective the paper had

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employed. We still don't know exactly what happened, we know some

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sinister incidents took place, going beyond phone hacking. That

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raised issues of personal security that they were both very concerned.

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They both had young children at home. It started two years ago with

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allegations against celebrities and their representatives. Then

:03:30.:03:34.

politicians became involved. It was only yesterday with a revelation

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that murdered schoolgirl, Milly Dowler's phone had been hacked, the

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wave of dues gust threatens to continue, with news today that the

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families of the murdered schoolchildren, Holly Wells and

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Jessica Chapman have been approached by police. If it turns

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out the News of the World hacked into the phones belonging to the

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parents of Holly and Jessica, the News of the World will face further

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investigation. Any investigation about crimes that were interfered

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with, or where hacking took place, adds to the view that there are at

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least in parts of the industry, something very rotten. This is

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truly immoral what was going on. My wife said to me this morning, this

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was sick what was going on, that will be the reaction up and down

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the country. It is reasonable to assume that other high-profile

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crime cases could have been targets. Another obvious candidate is the

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case of missing girl Madeline McCann, who disappeared from the

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apartment in Portugal where the family was holidaying in 2007. We

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approached the former BBC journalist, who has represented the

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McCanns in recent years, he's standing on the right here. He told

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us today when he asked his phone company to check the records, they

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found several suspicious events in 2008, at the height of reporting

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about the Madeline case. Given the concerns that had been

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raised, I asked Vodaphone to check my own phone records. Whilst they

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prrnt able to go back through every single phone call in and out. They

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were able to present me with the customer service records, any time

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someone calls to make a payment or renew your plan a note is made by

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the operator. Vodaphone themselves flagged up, on at least two

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occasions, back in 2008, some suspicious activity on my phone,

:05:29.:05:39.
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which I know had nothing to do with Clarence Mitchell has been

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interviewed by the police who have taken this evidence. He says he

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can't be sure if News of the World was behind these suspicious calls

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or not, he was in daily contact, and says journalists were under

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dangerous pressure to deliver new lines. It certainly wasn't me, it

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makes no sense. There is no such thing as a CID trial and there

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never has been a trial in the McCann case. Rebecca Brook, now

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News International's chief executive is coming under intense

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pressure to resign. I understand people have been saying that, she's

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clear that's what she won't do. It happened in 2002, she's chief

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executive of a company in 2011. She's absolutely determined to get

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to the bottom of this issue. She has put three senior executives in

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charge of it on day-to-day basis, we run this full-time, we make

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decision, we report to her, we are under no illusion she's absolutely

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determined if things went wrong we will correct them, and justice will

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be done. But advertisers are voting with their feet. Ford has pulled

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its advertising, pending the outcome of News International's

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inquiry. Others, including NPower, Vauxhall, Halifax, Dixon, are

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reviewing the accounts. Tesko, one of the biggest advertisers today,

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said the latest allegation also cause huge distress. Remember News

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International used to tell everyone, including the Press Complaints

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Commission, that it was all down to one rogue reporter. I am the

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regulator, there is only so much we can do when people are lying to us.

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Now we know, we didn't have the evidence then. We know now that I

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was not being given the truth by News of the World. New hacking

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victims are emerging by the hour, it seems.

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Tonight the independent newspaper claips that Rebecca Brooks

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personally ordered the hacking of certain phones, and others say that

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the victims of 7/7 were also targeted. New developments tonight?

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Happening every half an hour. My colleague was reporting earlier

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tonight on Twitter that News International passed e-mails to the

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police that seemed to show that Andy Coulson, the Prime Minister's

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former press secretary, did pass comment, it is thought that new

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information has been provided to the police. And News International

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has reiterated that full co- operation has been provided. This

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is a big issue, it is not just phone hacking, it is about the

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payment of police for confidential information. One final thing

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reported in the Telegraph tomorrow morning, the paper there. They are

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suggesting that some of the survivors from 7/7 may have had

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their phones hacked in to too. The former director of

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communications for Tony Blair, Alastair Campbell, as is the former

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News of the World journalist, Paul McMullan.

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Let's start with you, Paul McMullan, Rebecca Brooks said she's staying

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because she didn't know what was going on in the cases, could she

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not have shown? - known? I have always been quite loyal to her, God

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knows why. One slip up was when Hugh Grant came into the bar and we

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had a chat over the bar and I said she knew all about it to him, that

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was a bit of unguided bar talk. The simple answer is, yes, of course

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she did. She, of course denies that? I see. Right, well that is an

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interesting position to take. And one that when they first said it

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was a rogue reporter, I thought what about the legitimate

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investigations we have done that we have had to go into the grey areas

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and do these things, surely you should protect us and take the

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point that sometimes we have to do these things, not it is just one

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person, we never knew anything about it. What was it like to work

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there at the time. Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator, talks

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about a climate of constant pressure to deliver things? It is,

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you are only as good as your next story. They used to do a byline

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count every year, and if you didn't have enough it was goodbye. Can you

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imagine yourself in that sort of environment imagine yourself doing

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something like listening to Milly Dowler's phone message or something

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like that? I thought about that today, I have always been very

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proud to be a News of the World reporter, the biggest circulating

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English language newspaper in the world, and suddenly I felt ashamed

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because of the parents and what they had gone through. In reality,

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I have been thinking about it and taking a step back, it is not such

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a big deal. I was talking from someone from Kenya earlier today

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who said the journalists might have helped. They knew a bit of extra

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information. Are you saying you don't think it was an invasion of

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privacy? You don't think it broke the law, or obstructive to the

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police inquiry or distress for the parents, all those things are

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outweighed? The mistake was made, he was so keen to get new messages

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he delighted the old ones. That alerted the family that somebody

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was tampering with her phone, and it could have been her. Can you

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imagine yourself doing that in those circumstances at that time?

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I'm thinking, no I didn't, any way. I'm suggesting did, I'm asking can

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you imagine yourself doing it, working at the News of the World at

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that time? I have to say when you're investigating something, and

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you are really just trying to write the truth about an issue, and you

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are looking for an exclusive, and if that is available, then, I have

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been thinking to myself, would I have considered taking information

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from that, because you have to say it wasn't a staff reporter who did

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that, it was a PI, who has done it, and then rung up and said this is

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what's happened. Do I put my fingers in my ears and say please

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don't tell me. No you don't, you listen. You think that is an

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interesting lead. But, no, I shouldn't be trying to defend the

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indefensible, because it is not going to be a very popular position.

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Let me turn to Alastair Campbell here, how big a deal is this?

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has become a very big deal T would have been less of a deal if News

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International from the word go had taken the approach that Paul has

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taken the whole way through this, which is basically to say, we did

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terrible things, we accept they are against the law, here we are going

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to clear it all up. Instead of which, what has happened is the

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truth has been dragged kicking and screaming, lines have changed every

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stage of the story. You have had the business willing if away, and

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the police and the Government willing it away. Some stories have

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a tipping point, and the Milly Dowler revelations last night is

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the tipping point. The reason we are sitting talking about it and

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the newspapers keeping it going and a debate in the Commons tomorrow,

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is we have reached a tipping point, it is not just about the News of

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the World, it is about what sort of press, culture it is, and what sort

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of practices they have indulged in. Considering themselves above the

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law for some time. You know News International, do you think Rebecca

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Brooks can survive? It will be difficult, I think in many of the

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car crash interviews Alan Greenburg did today, he said the difference

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between Andy Coul so, n and this is the allegations were substantiated,

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it seems to say if the allegations are substantiated Rebecca will go.

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It was broadcast earlier this evening that there was no doubt at

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News International that the story has been substantiated and there

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may be worse to come. I this from Rebecca's perspective, I will take

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her at her word she didn't know anything about it. Paul was saying

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the same thing when Andy Coulson knew nothing about it, and Paul

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said the whole way along, he sat in the newsroom and saw what went on,

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and it was industrial, endemic phone hackinging throughout the

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newsroom. I estimate at least 10% of the population hacked into a

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phone, your girld friend might have done the same thing. A mother might

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do that to see what her son has been up to. That has been made

:14:46.:14:51.

illegal, it used to be fair game. We used to sit outside Buckingham

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Palace listening to Prince Charles talk about ridiculous ideas. It is

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not just about phone hacking. This debate in the Commons, I hope they

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talk about the Information Commissioner's report about this

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relationship between newspapers and private detectives, where there was

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one report, the Mail made 60 different journalists make

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different payments to the same private detective. The Observer was

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on there, we are not just talking about the News of the World. We are

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talking about a culture, even Paul would accept has got to change.

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The House of Commons is to hold an emergency debate on the scandal

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tomorrow, while both main party lead verse wrung their hands today

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and expressed their horror at what the News of the World is said to

:15:32.:15:36.

have done. The acid test is how far politicians are willing to distance

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themselves from the paper and the parent company. It is perceived

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wisdom in politics that you don't win elections without cosying up to

:15:46.:15:51.

Rupert Murdoch's publications. Plenty of politicians clear that

:15:51.:15:56.

not getting up close enough to the sun could cause them to crash and

:15:56.:16:02.

burn. Mrs Thatcher was bathed in a warm appreciative glow, Tony Blair

:16:02.:16:07.

made good relations an absolute priority. Losing the endorsement

:16:07.:16:11.

made Gordon Brown's departure more spectacular. David Cameron, the man

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he chose to run his press operation was a former News International

:16:15.:16:19.

editor. Want to see this influence in

:16:19.:16:23.

action? Here are some pictures of Tony Blair visiting News

:16:23.:16:27.

International in 1999. Look what happens when he comes across

:16:27.:16:32.

Rebecca Brooks, he gives her a friendly wave, before his minders

:16:32.:16:36.

want to get the cameras to film something else. No, no filming just

:16:36.:16:42.

for a bit. Patrick Diamond was an adviser in

:16:42.:16:49.

Tony Blair's Downing Street. It is inevitable, any Government in the

:16:49.:16:52.

modern age will pay heed to what the media thinks and writes, there

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will always be a concern with presentation. What matters is

:16:55.:16:58.

policy decisions are taken for the right reasons and the best

:16:58.:17:02.

interests of the country, and not because it seems to be popular with

:17:02.:17:06.

one newspaper or another. There are sensitive policy decisions around

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the issue of immigration, around the issue of the criminal justice

:17:10.:17:13.

system, and around issues to do with taxation were there has been a

:17:13.:17:16.

feeling that perhaps some newspapers have been too

:17:16.:17:20.

influential n terms of skewing the public debate in particular

:17:20.:17:24.

directions. A generation of Labour MPs were scarred by the way Sun

:17:24.:17:29.

duffed up Neil Kinnock. When Gordon Brown lost the Sun's endorsement in

:17:29.:17:34.

2009, they turned on him. Among other stories they ran a damaging

:17:34.:17:39.

account of his scrawled letter to a mother who lost her son in

:17:39.:17:44.

Afghanistan. For a politician, it is hard to shine when the Sun isn't

:17:44.:17:48.

shining. David Cameron learned the lesson too, the man he appointed to

:17:48.:17:53.

the job of handling his communications was Andy Coulson the

:17:53.:17:56.

editor of the News of the World, who resigned over the phone hacking

:17:56.:18:00.

allegation, while maintaining he was ignorant of the practice. David

:18:00.:18:04.

Cameron is very friendly with News International's chief executive,

:18:04.:18:08.

Rebecca Brooks, sharing a family meal over Christmas last year.

:18:08.:18:11.

Today Mr Cameron said he was appalled by the recent hacking

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allegations. If they are true, this is a truly dreadful act and a truly

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dreadful situation. What I have read in the papers is quite

:18:23.:18:28.

shocking. When the new Labour leader, Ed Miliband, was picking a

:18:28.:18:31.

communicatoins chief, he turned from someone from News

:18:31.:18:35.

International, Tom Baldwin, a former Times journalist. According

:18:35.:18:41.

to leaked memo in January, he told Labour MPs not to pick on News

:18:41.:18:51.
:18:51.:18:59.

It's not just primes and leaders of the opposition - prime ministers

:19:00.:19:04.

and leaders of the opposition that come into the gravitational pull of

:19:04.:19:07.

News International. Backbench MPs looking to investigate the phone

:19:07.:19:10.

hacking allegations report being gently warned against pushing their

:19:11.:19:14.

inquiries too far. Meanwhile other MPs appear to be on very good terms

:19:14.:19:18.

with the organisation. The Commons culture, media and

:19:18.:19:22.

Sport Select Committee has the job of skrutising the activities of the

:19:23.:19:31.

broadcast - scrutinising the activities of broadcast and media

:19:31.:19:35.

operations. BSkyB sent one politician a check for the Cricket

:19:35.:19:40.

Clbu he supports. It was said this was one of many grants made to

:19:40.:19:47.

grassroots cricket. More than one member of the committee recalls the

:19:47.:19:52.

chairman using their power to stop Rebecca Brooks giving evidence.

:19:52.:19:55.

chair said we have to as a committee to think very carefully

:19:55.:19:58.

before going down that particular road, because there could be

:19:58.:20:01.

consequences for us personally. And all kinds of revelations could be

:20:02.:20:08.

dredged up in terms of our personal life. Almost as revenge for telling

:20:08.:20:14.

Rebecca Brooks to appear against her will. Mr Whitting Dale told

:20:14.:20:18.

Newsnight he was neither warning or passing on a message, just

:20:18.:20:22.

recounting what another MP had told him. He said the severity of the

:20:22.:20:26.

committee's criticism of News International, testifys to his and

:20:26.:20:29.

its independence. Plenty of other news organisations have plenty of

:20:30.:20:32.

links with politician, they wouldn't be doing their job if they

:20:32.:20:36.

didn't. But, the question is, when does contact become pressure, and

:20:36.:20:46.
:20:46.:20:48.

when does pressure become sinister. With us knew Chris Blackhurst the

:20:48.:20:52.

new editor. And my other guests. Something you want to clear up

:20:52.:20:56.

first? Your reporter at the top of the story got it slightly wrong. We

:20:56.:21:00.

have a very good story in the Independent tomorrow saying that

:21:00.:21:03.

Rebecca Brooks actually commissioned one of the private

:21:03.:21:09.

detectives herself on a personal matter. Nothing to do with the

:21:09.:21:13.

story. He was the private detective who then went on to provide the

:21:13.:21:17.

paper with the ex-directory number of Milly Dowler's family. What that

:21:18.:21:22.

shows is her claims not to know these people and to be distant from

:21:22.:21:26.

them, really can't stand up. She did contact this bloke, she asked

:21:26.:21:30.

him to look for, something to do with a phone number, he did the job

:21:30.:21:35.

for her. It was something to do with her private life. He then went

:21:35.:21:38.

on later to provide this phone number.

:21:38.:21:44.

How does it strike you as a visitor to these lands a frequent advise to

:21:44.:21:48.

but this whole affair? Well, in many ways it is a universal problem.

:21:48.:21:52.

Because there is a deep mistrust a growing mistrust of the media.

:21:52.:21:58.

Across the Atlantic, as well as here. But the specific problem of

:21:58.:22:01.

actually paying private investigators, to collect

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information, which is something illegal, to hack, which is

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something illegal. That is very specific to here. Yes, the National

:22:11.:22:15.

Enquiryer may do it, the Star may do it, but mainstream press should

:22:15.:22:19.

not be able to get away with that. The fact it is going on year, after

:22:19.:22:22.

year, after year, is very significant. What Alastair said is

:22:22.:22:29.

the key, this has reached a tipping point, our splash tomorrow in our

:22:29.:22:39.
:22:39.:22:42.

inaugural edition will be the back stabs with Rebecca Brooks. These

:22:42.:22:45.

guys have been able to behave in this way because people like you

:22:45.:22:48.

and political parties of the kind you belong to and are still

:22:48.:22:51.

associated with, and indeed the present Government, like to cosy up

:22:51.:22:54.

to them, because they believe they are important, do you accept a

:22:54.:22:58.

degree of blame in this? I accept a degree, but it is overstated. I

:22:58.:23:04.

always think the Sun's influence is overstated. In 1997, the Sun came

:23:04.:23:08.

out for us because they knew we would win. You flew Tony Blair to

:23:08.:23:12.

Australia to speak to Murdoch? To get them on side? Partly about that.

:23:12.:23:15.

Our aim in opposition was to get into Government. That was about

:23:15.:23:19.

reaching through to the public. So an event like that was a bit of a

:23:19.:23:24.

no-brainer for to us do. Where you have a point, Patrick Diamond made

:23:24.:23:28.

a great point in that package. He said, you can have all sorts of

:23:28.:23:31.

relationships with all sorts of people, providing you are making

:23:31.:23:35.

policy judgment ace cord to go what you genuinely believe - according

:23:35.:23:40.

to what you genuinely believe. Tony Blair would sit with Rupert and say

:23:40.:23:46.

that you are mad about Europe. I think the relationship is skewed if

:23:46.:23:51.

they are moving half way across to their ideas. You have the note from

:23:51.:23:55.

Tony Blair after the victory, "thank you for your wonderful

:23:55.:24:00.

support which really did make all the difference"? Tony is a polite

:24:00.:24:06.

kind of chap. The Sun likes winners, the reason they really went for

:24:06.:24:09.

Gordon Brown is because they were desperate for Cameron to win,

:24:09.:24:13.

because that's who they backed, in the end Cameron didn't get the

:24:13.:24:16.

majority. That is the other point, politicians worry far too much

:24:16.:24:20.

about newspapers. That is me saying it, having worried about them in

:24:20.:24:24.

the past, partly because of the changes that the on-line revolution

:24:24.:24:27.

represents, newspapers are becoming less influential.

:24:27.:24:32.

This is an apology for a wasted life, in your case? Not at all, my

:24:32.:24:35.

life was dedicated towards helping the Labour Party get into power,

:24:35.:24:40.

and then staying there. worrying about what the press was

:24:40.:24:43.

saying! Part of the job as press spokesman was to manage the press.

:24:43.:24:47.

Tony Blair's job was to get on and lead the Labour Party. The media

:24:47.:24:51.

thinks everybody sits there only thinking about the media. If you

:24:51.:24:56.

let the media define your reality, you are always making a mistake.

:24:56.:25:00.

What is given different now is managing the press is no longer

:25:00.:25:03.

possible, it is no longer five or six newspaper that is you manage.

:25:03.:25:10.

It is social media everywhere. It is Twitter, it is the Huffington

:25:10.:25:19.

Post. Stop uing ping your - plugging your paper please.

:25:19.:25:25.

What do you make of your relationship? What agree with

:25:25.:25:30.

Alastair is, when he mentioned the Sun, the perception in this country

:25:30.:25:38.

is that the Sun delivered the election,, they had the poster

:25:38.:25:43.

front page the day of Neil Kinnock, I would argue that they had already

:25:43.:25:48.

lost and the clincher was the Sheffield rally the night before.

:25:48.:25:52.

The Sun did not win that election for Labour, sorry, for the Tories.

:25:52.:25:57.

Unfortunately, it has been allowed to grow in the Westminster village

:25:57.:26:02.

and the media village. It is good marketing by the Murdoch people.

:26:02.:26:05.

this a tipping point as far as people's attitudes to the press

:26:05.:26:08.

generally, and to the News International papers in had

:26:08.:26:14.

particular? First of all, I would like to say on behalf of everybody.

:26:14.:26:21.

Don't plug your newspaper, please? All journalists, in the same way

:26:21.:26:24.

not all MPs fiddle their expenses, not all journalists got up to this.

:26:24.:26:28.

On the other hand it is a tipping point. The Milly Dowler thing today,

:26:28.:26:33.

I have never seen anger and fury, and my own wife said, she didn't

:26:33.:26:39.

care too much about Sienna Miller having her phone hacked, but she

:26:39.:26:41.

was livid about Milly Dowler. There is something very profound there.

:26:42.:26:45.

It is this point on the extent of it, the Information Commissioner I

:26:45.:26:50.

mentioned before, he did a report earlier this year, one detective

:26:50.:26:54.

employed by 31 different newspapers, right across the spectrum. Selling

:26:54.:26:59.

them illegally obtained information. That is why this debate tomorrow

:26:59.:27:03.

mustn't just be about News of the World and Rebecca Brooks. Isn't it

:27:03.:27:06.

the extent to which commercial pressures could get the media

:27:06.:27:09.

straight. Once you get organisations like Ford withdrawing

:27:09.:27:13.

their advertising from News of the World, organisations like Tesco,

:27:13.:27:18.

Virgin and various others, thinking about doing so, it is a significant

:27:18.:27:23.

pressure, from ununexpecting source. The reason they are considering

:27:23.:27:26.

withdrawing advertise something partly because of the public

:27:26.:27:29.

outrage. While the public might have been willing to put up

:27:29.:27:33.

celebrities, even the Royal Family, politicians having their phones

:27:33.:27:37.

hacked, they are absolutely outraged it happened to an ordinary

:27:37.:27:42.

family. It means it could happen to them. Also this revolving door that

:27:42.:27:51.

we see here between the News of the World and Number Ten. That is

:27:51.:27:57.

outrageous, have they run out of spin miser, do they have to go to

:27:57.:28:03.

the News of the World. Tonight on Twitter, the spokesman, Greenburg,

:28:03.:28:08.

he was trending, Rebecca Brooks was trending, Glenn Mulcaire was

:28:08.:28:15.

trending, even Rebecca Wade is trending. It is a strand of the

:28:15.:28:22.

public having their say and forcing it and keeping it on the agenda, at

:28:22.:28:26.

that time when the police, the media and the politicians want it

:28:26.:28:30.

to go away. I think the first thing the Prime Minister should say is

:28:30.:28:36.

there will be a full judicial inquiry into the practice. We live

:28:36.:28:40.

in strange age, one of the clinchers today was to hear Mumsnet

:28:40.:28:47.

was up in arms, that is much bigger than Tesco and Ford, Mumsnet.

:28:47.:28:54.

as big as the Huffington Post though! That's enough. Getting on

:28:54.:28:58.

for half the work force at Britain's last remaining train

:28:58.:29:03.

manufacturer will lose their jobs. It follow as Government decision to

:29:03.:29:09.

give the contract to make 1,200 new train carriages to the German firm,

:29:09.:29:13.

Seimens. It is an odd way to show their commitment to manufacturing

:29:14.:29:18.

in Britain. The business secretary said it was vital that Britain

:29:18.:29:22.

retains train making skills. I will be talking to the Transport

:29:22.:29:28.

Secretary in a moment. Just look at this beauty, she's one of thousands

:29:28.:29:34.

of mighty locomotives designed and built at the Derby Work a centre of

:29:34.:29:44.
:29:44.:29:47.

railway innovation since 1840, the very dawn of the industrial era.

:29:47.:29:54.

Frank Leeming, now a local councillor, became an apresent tis

:29:54.:30:00.

in 1948, aged 15. - an apprentice in 1948, aged 15. I feel extremely

:30:00.:30:04.

proud and think I was part of this at one time, this is my heritage,

:30:04.:30:12.

and I intend to keep it. Machines like this one are a mighty

:30:12.:30:22.

symbol of Britain's once great manufacturing industry. But, as we

:30:22.:30:26.

all know, British manufacturing is not what it used to be.

:30:26.:30:30.

Or at least, that's the conventional wisdom. But the plant

:30:30.:30:34.

here in derby has been at the forefront of innovation in the

:30:34.:30:38.

railway industry. First in the age of steam, then in the diesel

:30:38.:30:44.

revolution and now with high-speed trains. I took Frank back to see

:30:44.:30:49.

how the place has changed since his day. I'm so pleased to see the

:30:49.:30:53.

standard that we are still producing. This is a superb

:30:53.:30:58.

standard, second to none anywhere in the world. Not for much longer,

:30:58.:31:05.

according to the Unite union. Unfortunately this vast engineering

:31:05.:31:10.

work could soon close, Bombardier lost a contract to a German company,

:31:10.:31:14.

Seimens, for a major Government contract to supply trains for the

:31:14.:31:18.

London Thameslink network. It leaves this unique British

:31:18.:31:23.

factory's future uncertain. The company says the loss of the

:31:23.:31:28.

�1.4 billion contract to Seimens, has led to the 1,400 job losses

:31:28.:31:32.

announced today. It says by September just one of its five

:31:32.:31:37.

production lines will be operating. Of course, resuscitating Britain's

:31:37.:31:40.

manufacturing industry has been a key goal of the coalition

:31:40.:31:45.

Government. Remember when Cameron shipped the entire cabinet up to,

:31:46.:31:50.

that's right, Derby. Why? The point of the cabinet today is to ask one

:31:50.:31:54.

fundamental question, what is it that we can do, in Government, to

:31:54.:31:59.

help the economy to rebalance, to grow, and for businesses to start

:31:59.:32:02.

up, to invest and employ people. Here is the Prime Minister in

:32:02.:32:07.

London. My approach is clear, British business should have no

:32:07.:32:11.

more vocal champion than the British Government itself.

:32:11.:32:16.

again. Our economy has become more and more unbalanced, with our

:32:16.:32:19.

fortunes hitched to a few industries in one corner of the

:32:19.:32:24.

country, while we let other sectors, like manufacturing, slide.

:32:24.:32:27.

The Government says that European rules mean it is forced to choose

:32:27.:32:31.

the best value option for tax- payers, regardless of where

:32:31.:32:38.

companies are based. Christian Wolmar is a railway historian and

:32:38.:32:41.

transport export. Most trains for Germany are made in Germany, most

:32:41.:32:47.

trains in France are made in France. Here we follow the rule. How much

:32:47.:32:52.

flexibility does the Government have under European law, could the

:32:52.:32:55.

coalition have awarded the Thameslink contract to this British

:32:55.:33:00.

factory if it wanted. The UK and the authorities that award public

:33:00.:33:06.

authorities in the UK are obsessed with the lowest price, with purely

:33:06.:33:11.

economic criteria for the award of public contracts. In the continent,

:33:11.:33:14.

in Germany, France and other continental countries, they have a

:33:14.:33:21.

more relaxed and flexible opportunity to incorporate

:33:21.:33:26.

socioeconomic criteria, taking into influence how public service

:33:26.:33:30.

contracts are award. The decision has angered workers

:33:30.:33:37.

here. These workers have a century- long commitment to the plant.

:33:37.:33:42.

was a massive disappointment, for the town it was horrendous. This

:33:42.:33:47.

plant is Britain's last toe hold in the railway industry. If it goes,

:33:47.:33:52.

the chances are this country will never build another train.

:33:53.:33:58.

With us now is the Transport Secretary, Philip Hammond. How much

:33:58.:34:02.

money was saved by giving the contract to Germany rather han

:34:02.:34:06.

having it made at the Bombardier plant - than having it made at the

:34:06.:34:09.

Bombardier plant? It is not about money saved, it is complying with

:34:09.:34:15.

the legal requirements under. there any money saved? The Seimens

:34:15.:34:18.

proposal represented better value for money. By how much? When

:34:18.:34:24.

measured in terms that were set out in the original procurement. By how

:34:24.:34:30.

much? I can't tell you that. Do you know? Of course I know, it is

:34:30.:34:33.

commercially confidential, and under the terms of the procurement

:34:33.:34:37.

I can't sit on the programme and talk about the terms of the two

:34:37.:34:41.

bids. Have you considered the cost of the unemployment? The terms of

:34:41.:34:46.

the procurement were set out by the previous Government in 2008Er

:34:46.:34:51.

Passing the buck? I'm explaining how the system works. What the guy

:34:51.:34:58.

said on there is perfectly true, it is OK to add in socioeconomic

:34:58.:35:03.

factors, but it has to be at the time you have the procurement.

:35:03.:35:09.

Labour didn't do that in 2008. If we had decided, as some people have

:35:09.:35:12.

urged us, to simply ignore the terms of the procurement that

:35:12.:35:16.

Labour set out, and to award the contract to an underbidder, first

:35:16.:35:23.

of all, we would face legal action from the successful bidder.

:35:23.:35:27.

Secondly, under terms of the EU remedies directive, we would very

:35:27.:35:30.

likely be prevented by legal intervention from signing a

:35:30.:35:34.

contract any way. Why is it that the German and French Governments

:35:34.:35:38.

are able to ensure that their trains are made largely in their

:35:38.:35:43.

own country, and you appear to be incapable of doing so? It is a very

:35:43.:35:45.

good question, and Vince Cable and I wrote to the Prime Minister the

:35:45.:35:50.

week before last. That is after the event? Following the announcement

:35:50.:35:53.

on Bombardier, wrote to the Prime Minister. After the event? And said,

:35:53.:36:00.

that we need now to look at how we operate within...Did You say, I'm

:36:00.:36:05.

sorry Prime Minister, we made a mistake? We followed the rules.

:36:05.:36:10.

have just admitted you made a mistake? I'm talking about any new

:36:10.:36:14.

procurements that we specify, we need to look very carefully at how

:36:14.:36:18.

our competitors in Europe, also operating within the same EU

:36:18.:36:22.

procurement law, can manage to achieve the outcomes they do.

:36:22.:36:25.

question is how can they do it so much better than you can?

:36:25.:36:29.

answer is, right up front, when they set out the rirms of the

:36:29.:36:33.

contract, they set out how - requirements of the contract, they

:36:33.:36:38.

set out how it will be evaluated, they include the socioeconomic

:36:38.:36:44.

factors that the expert just talked about. And we don't? In this

:36:44.:36:49.

particular contract there was no reference to the socioeconomic

:36:49.:36:54.

issues, so we couldn't. So it is a bunch of civil servants that

:36:54.:36:58.

doesn't give a dam about the consequences, someone is

:36:58.:37:01.

responsible? It is about the culture around Civil Service

:37:01.:37:05.

procurement in Britain, we have to look at it. Other countries put

:37:05.:37:09.

much more emphasis on the strategic impact of procurement. What it does

:37:09.:37:12.

to the long-term supply base in their own domestic economy. We have

:37:12.:37:17.

suggested to the Prime Minister, that we need to look at how we can

:37:17.:37:21.

make sure that in future procurements, we also give

:37:21.:37:24.

appropriate weight to that long- term strategy.

:37:24.:37:27.

You are a member of the cabinet what do you think of Rupert Murdoch

:37:27.:37:31.

being able to take over the whole of Sky, given what we have seen

:37:31.:37:35.

over the News of the World's behaviour? I think the two things

:37:35.:37:43.

are separate issues. The issues around the BSkyB bid are issues of

:37:43.:37:47.

plurality in the media. It is about the undertakings being given there.

:37:47.:37:51.

What has happened in the News of the World, if it is true, as the

:37:51.:37:55.

Prime Minister said, it is completely inexcusable, that is a

:37:55.:37:58.

separate issue. To another, once great industrial

:37:58.:38:03.

city, which has fallen victim to official incompetence and broken

:38:03.:38:07.

promises, it is Stoke-on-Trent. The issue is not jobs but houses. When

:38:07.:38:11.

we all lived in Gordon Brown's fantasy Government, the Labour

:38:11.:38:15.

Government made vast commitments to those living in sub-standard

:38:15.:38:19.

housing. Then came economic reality and budget cuts from the coalition.

:38:19.:38:26.

As a consequence, the citizens of Stoke, the promise of improvement

:38:26.:38:36.

has ruined their lives. Pauline and Barbara live on New Port Lane,

:38:36.:38:41.

nobody else does. Mark and Sharon's home is falling down, it is the

:38:41.:38:47.

last one on the block. Natalie lives on a street plaged by crime.

:38:47.:38:50.

This is Stoke-on-Trent, once an industrial heartland, its heart has

:38:50.:38:56.

been ripped out. Hundreds of terraces have been

:38:56.:39:05.

demolished, hundreds more stand derelict, all because of a scheme

:39:05.:39:09.

called Pathfinder. Doreen lived at the end. Gina. Doreen had only just

:39:09.:39:16.

spent a load of money on her house. Where are they all now? The answer

:39:16.:39:20.

is rehoused, for some evicted, the promise was new homes would be

:39:20.:39:27.

built here. Where is the new houses? We haven't got any. Why?

:39:27.:39:32.

want to know why. They won't invest. They have no money they say. I know

:39:32.:39:36.

they have more money, it is for private buyers, they won't invest

:39:36.:39:42.

anything. We have had things put in the paper who they are going to

:39:42.:39:47.

build, and it hasn't materialised. House building has stopped,

:39:47.:39:50.

demolition is delayed, what was supposed to be the planned

:39:50.:39:54.

regeneration of a community has turned into a nightmare. We have

:39:54.:40:02.

been degenerated, not regenerated. We used to be a community, right

:40:02.:40:07.

Pauline. We had our own shops. had a butcher's, a grocer's, we got

:40:07.:40:14.

the club. We want it back as a community. We

:40:14.:40:20.

want some life into the place. Instead of rats running all over

:40:20.:40:23.

the place. Do you think you will live to see this place come back as

:40:23.:40:31.

a community? No. No. Definitely not. There is no community left. This is

:40:31.:40:37.

no story of gradual decline. It is a story of a master plan. Of social

:40:37.:40:43.

engineering, of spending cuts, and a broken promise. Stoke was already

:40:43.:40:47.

in trouble, thousands of pottery jobs were moved offshore. Property

:40:47.:40:52.

values had collapsed, even as, in the rest of Britain, a property

:40:52.:41:01.

boom took off. That made Stoke an ideal candidate for Pathfinder. In

:41:01.:41:06.

2003, Labour's deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, launched

:41:06.:41:10.

the Pathfinder plan, 90,000 terraced house, in seven cities,

:41:10.:41:15.

would be cleared and replaced with new-build housing, thousands more

:41:15.:41:20.

would be renovated, property values would rise. But last October, the

:41:20.:41:24.

coalition, which had always opposed the scheme, cancelled it. The

:41:24.:41:28.

promised homes will not be built, Pathfinder is over. But not for

:41:28.:41:32.

those who still have to live in the middle of all this.

:41:32.:41:41.

It is not nice, it looks dead rough. You look like you are living here

:41:41.:41:51.
:41:51.:41:51.

on your own, there is no-one here. This couple have been trying to

:41:51.:41:55.

move, but are stuck? Crime is through the roof. It is scary to

:41:55.:41:59.

live here. We have to leave the lights on in the house all the time.

:41:59.:42:03.

Even throughout the night so people know we're still in here, if you

:42:03.:42:07.

smell smoke you instantly think next door is on fire, they are

:42:07.:42:11.

setting fire to every empty house, it is not being dealt with at all.

:42:11.:42:17.

It is constant fear of what could happen. So nobody lives here?

:42:17.:42:26.

are people on both sides that live in this. Brendan Nevin is a housing

:42:26.:42:32.

expert who helped implement the Pathfinder he is scheme. He thinks

:42:32.:42:36.

it is putting lives at risk. This was sealed up only last week. That

:42:36.:42:40.

is an arson risk. There is somebody living next door. Somebody lives

:42:40.:42:44.

there. If they get in, if somebody gets in there and torches that,

:42:44.:42:50.

these people are in real trouble. Clearance areas are fundamentally

:42:50.:42:54.

dangerous people and they need to be got down very, very quickly.

:42:54.:43:01.

Even if we can't rehouse people and rebuild things, why can't we get

:43:01.:43:04.

the last people out and make it safe. At the moment there is no

:43:04.:43:09.

money to buy people out, the money was cut off on 1st April, there

:43:09.:43:12.

used to be money to manage and clean these place, that money is

:43:12.:43:17.

gone. The scheme was scrapped eight years in to a 15-year agreement.

:43:17.:43:23.

Those who drew the blueprints assumed even if the coalition

:43:23.:43:27.

scrapped the scheme existing commitments would be met? We have

:43:27.:43:31.

no plan or guidance, we have been left to our own devices with the

:43:31.:43:36.

money pulled at short notice. has now �5 million to put the

:43:36.:43:41.

scheme to rest. After that it will rely on market forces. There is

:43:41.:43:44.

always consensus between political parties that you have to finish

:43:44.:43:48.

things that have been started, even though the policy has to change.

:43:48.:43:51.

There was a consensus to make sure no place was left to die, and no

:43:51.:43:55.

place where the market wouldn't work. We have abandoned that now.

:43:55.:43:58.

There seems to be an explicit policy whereby places will live or

:43:58.:44:03.

die by the market. This is a massive change in British political

:44:03.:44:12.

history. Where it was done with foresight, Pathfinder worked, this

:44:12.:44:15.

council estate used to be one of the roughest in Britain. It was

:44:15.:44:23.

plaged with vandalism, dodgy pubs and crime. But Maggie Carter sorted

:44:24.:44:30.

that out, she was part of a community group that helped shape

:44:30.:44:35.

the Pathfinder group on the ground. There was apathy, but once people

:44:35.:44:38.

realised they weren't going to be trodden on but they were going to

:44:38.:44:41.

be talked to and consulted with, they started to come out and get on

:44:41.:44:46.

board. Here the rebuilding was done within a short time scale. The

:44:46.:44:52.

result, new and refurbished homes, on the site of previously sub-

:44:52.:44:56.

standard ones. Was it ever in the back of your mind what happens if

:44:56.:45:00.

the money runs out? Yes. thought about it? Yes. Why didn't

:45:00.:45:04.

the people planning Stoke think about it? I don't know.

:45:04.:45:08.

But, with the money gone, she's worried that even here, progress

:45:08.:45:14.

could be reversed. I'm not as stupid as to say things couldn't go

:45:14.:45:19.

back to what they were, because I am aware that we are on a knife

:45:19.:45:22.

edge. Do you mean socially, in terms of crime and drugs. Yeah.

:45:22.:45:32.
:45:32.:45:33.

Even here. Hanly, in Stoke, was where Arnold

:45:33.:45:37.

Bennett chronicled the life of the potters. They are now a few niche

:45:37.:45:42.

business, many remember the hey day. At the community centre they are

:45:42.:45:50.

trying to keep things jolly. But this is the last bingo session. Lee,

:45:50.:45:55.

the community worker, employed under the Pathfinder scheme, is to

:45:55.:45:59.

lose his job, the money has run out. Personally I think we should have

:45:59.:46:04.

taken a section, demolished and rebuilt it. The people who still

:46:04.:46:09.

lived here could have moved on into those properties and continued in

:46:09.:46:14.

that way. Build and move, build and move process. Anybody you may speak

:46:14.:46:19.

to today would say that to you. That's where we feel it has gone

:46:19.:46:23.

wrong slightly. They have demolished and not built, so people

:46:23.:46:28.

are stuck. It has split the community.

:46:28.:46:33.

Pathfinder was supposed to revive places like this, now, in 12 cities

:46:33.:46:37.

across the Midlands and the north of England, the scheme is winding

:46:37.:46:45.

up. Communities are left high and dry.

:46:45.:46:52.

What haepsd here is a disSASer - what's happened here is a disaster,

:46:52.:46:57.

one charge levied is a Labour Government that refused to listen

:46:57.:47:03.

to local people. The other is spite, many believe the coalition doesn't

:47:03.:47:07.

care what happens to the blighted cities of the Midlands and the

:47:07.:47:11.

north. The council, the Government would they like to live in the mess

:47:11.:47:17.

we are living in. You feel like a secondhand citizen.

:47:17.:47:22.

Beyond the distress and poverty, on these streets, what's left of them,

:47:22.:47:29.

is a deep distrust, never again will the words "rebegin "and

:47:29.:47:39.
:47:39.:47:56.

"renewal" mean - "regeneration" and No time for the newspapers tonight,

:47:56.:48:01.

apparently, we have delighted you long enough, see you tomorrow, time

:48:01.:48:11.
:48:11.:48:32.

The last vestiges of heat have now drained away from eastern England,

:48:32.:48:37.

it is a cooler outlook, with a number of heavy showers around.

:48:37.:48:40.

Persistent rain across Scotland. Elsewhere, with a chance of saying

:48:40.:48:46.

something in the way of sunshine. Sharpish showers scattered around.

:48:47.:48:50.

Rattling around on a stiff breeze in the southern half of the UK.

:48:51.:48:54.

Cooler than Tuesday. We are stuck in the high teens, probably not

:48:54.:48:57.

that high across parts of the South-West, where the wind will

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freshen up, bringing heavy, squally showers as we end the day across

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Devon and Cornwall and the south west. The limited brightness to the

:49:06.:49:10.

east of the month tains, not a friendly day.

:49:10.:49:14.

Across Northern Ireland, some sunshine, heavy showers, light

:49:14.:49:18.

winds here, those showers could linger for a while. Persistently

:49:18.:49:22.

wet scene across a good chunk of central Scotland where there could

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be over an inch of rain. Further showers to come widely across

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northern parts of the UK on Wednesday and Thursday. Difficult

:49:29.:49:34.

to pin down the detail, but very few places staying entirely dry, it

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will be cool, further south, some sunshine, but showers never too far

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away. Temperatures a lot lower than we saw to start the week. This is

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Presented by Jeremy Paxman.

Newsnight has an update on the claims that a private investigator working for the News of the World newspaper intercepted messages left by relatives for murdered schoolgirl Milly Dowler while she was missing in 2002.


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