06/07/2011 Newsnight


Are the News of the World phone hacking allegations the equivalent for journalists to the MPs expenses scandal and a watershed moment for the profession in this country?

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 06/07/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



There will be a public inquiry into how and why the News of the World


hacked into people's phone messages. It reflect as rising tide of public


outrage, and tonight it got worse. The families of soldiers killed in


Afghanistan have been told it may have happened to them as well.


I feel so appalled by what has happened, murder victims, terrorist


victims, who have had their phones hacked is quite disgraceful. With


the biggest press scandals in modern times getting worse by the


day, I am afraid he hasn't shown the leadership necessary today.


Even Rupert Murdoch claims to be scandalised by what his people did,


yet he also affirms his support for the woman who was his editor and is


now his chief executive. What is to be done with an organisation which


treats common humanity and the law with equal contempt. Is the British


public, in a fit of morality, in any state to make judgment about


the limits of journalism. Also tonight, Richard Watson learns from


a former member of the News of the World team, how his paper bought


policemen. That would be the favourite rendezvous point where


the policeman or contributor would drive in, the person would go up


get into the car and hand over the envelope. Everyone knows fid fillia


is an international crime, but Interpol has said Britain is


failing to track down paedophiles. Are we more content with ourselves?,


this man thinks the answer is yes, and David Cameron is listening to


him. There hasn't been a wave of moral


outrage like it for years. Today as it emerged that even families of


some of the victims of the July London bombings, six years ago, had


their phones hacked, the tide of resentment towards the News of the


World grew even stronger. They found out about it last night. The


anniversary of the bombings is tomorrow. Just before we came on


air, news that families of men killed in Afghanistan have been


warned they may have been hacked. Even Rupert Murdoch affected to be


shocked, there was universal condemnation in parliament, and


such public hostility that a shrew of companies are pulling their


advertising. First tonight, Michael Crick reports.


This morning's front page headlines foretold what many MPs are saying


tonight was a big, big day in British politics.


Indeed, it was. It was the day when we may have seen significant tweaks


in the way in which power is distributed in this country. When


politicians asserted themselves over the media. With MPs, not just


crying halt, to the practices of tabloid journalist, but also crying


halt to the expansion of the Murdoch empire.


Day when backbenchers took the initiative, rather than ministers.


And also, almost incidently, the day when Ed Miliband finally


stamped his mark as Labour Party leader.


At Question Time David Cameron announced there would be an inquiry,


maybe two inquiries. But thepm seemed rattled at times. And Ed


Miliband judged the mood rather better. With the biggest press


scandal in modern times getting worse by the day, I'm afraid he


hasn't shown the leadership necessary today. He hasn't shown


the leadership necessary on BSkyB, he hasn't shown the leadership


necessary on News International. Isn't it the case f the public is


to have confidence in him, he has to calm the thing that is most


difficult, he has to accept he made a catastrophic error of judgment by


bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of his Downing Street machine.


I take full responsibility for everyone I employ, for everyone I


appoint, and I take responsibility for everything my Government does.


What this Government is doing is making sure that the fact the


public, and I feel, so appalled by what has happened, murder victims,


terrorist victims, who have had their phones hacked is quite


disgraceful. That is why it is important there is a full police


investigation w all the powers that they need. That's why it is


important we have sthos inquiries to get to the bottom of what -


those inquiries to get to the bottom of what went wrong. We also


need to inquire how to improve the ethics and morals of in this


country make sure they improve for the future. That is what needs to


be done, that is what this Government is doing, and we don't


have to take lectures from him about it. Today's emergency debate


began with a powerful speech from the Labour MP who has called it.


have let one man have far too great a sway over our national life. At


least Beryl's Last Year lives in Italy, but Murdoch - Berlussconi


lives in Italy, but Murdoch lives here but pays his tax elsewhere. No


country would allow him to have a monoply on sports rights and news


and movies. America, the home of the aggressive entrepreneur doesn't


allow it, we shouldn't. There was much on Murdoch's British


Lieutenant, Rebekah Brooks, and Andy Coulson, the former News of


the World editor, who quit in January as David Cameron's chief


spin doctor. It is now reported police have e-


mails showing Coulson knew of illegal payments to police officers.


Was Andy Coulson aware of this, and did he tell either the Prime


Minister, or anyone else in Number Ten about these e-mails? Because if


he did, it would mean the Prime Minister and members of the


Government would have been aware of this information before the


Metropolitan Police. It is important that the Prime Minister


provide some immediate answers in response to this question. Only a


couple of Tories were willing to come to the aid of Murdoch's people.


I have to say that the relish with which the revelations have been


greeted by some, seeking to take on the Murdoch empire, or engaging in


political pot shots, strikes me as opportunistic to say the least.


other big issue, should, or could, the Culture Secretary, Jeremy Hunt,


delay his decision on whether Murdoch's News Corporation can take


over the whole of BSkyB. Given that there is clear evidence of serious


criminality on the part of some people at News International, of in


any event, without necessarily referring it to the Competition


Commission, to calling a pause, pending further evidence.


Ministers said today that legally they couldn't pause, or block the


BSkyB takeover, on the grounds of the phone hacking scandal. But it


seems that Jeremy Hunt is likely to take his time now in considering


the more than 40,000 responses there have been to his latest


consultation exercise on the takeover. Another idea much mooted


by MPs, is that the regulator, Ofcom, could perhaps decide, that


News Corporation weren't now fit and...


There is some technical problem with that, we can approach the


subject in a lively fashion because we contacted 24 News International


journalists today, asking them to defend their employers, not a


single one of them wanted to talk to us tonight. However, we did


strike lucky on number 25, with Bill Emmott, former editor of the


Economist, not staffer there, but as a freelanceer writes columns for


the Times, we are ajoined by Simon Hughes, the Liberal Democrat, and


Conservative backbencher and barrister, Anna Soubry.


You are embarrassed with this title now? I would be more embarrassed if


I was with News of the World or the other tabloid papers. There are


some issues here, one the legality, the police not investigating, the


relationship with politics at the top of these organisations, and at


the top of politics, and then the fact that this is not going to be


limited to the News of the World, I'm afraid. We need to explore it,


what's going on in other tabloids as well. You are not ashamed to be


working for News International, given what's being revealed? I am


ashamed by what is going on in News of the World, absolutely, I'm


ashamed of any organisation that does. That I write columns for them


on an independent basis. But if they refuse to carry on a proper


investigation of this, if they refuse to really sort this out,


obviously anyone like me has to consider their position of writing


for such an organisation, absolutely. Simon Hughes, do you


believe that Rupert Murdoch is embarrassed and finds the whole


thing deplorable? He has be hugely embarrassed. The problem for him is


this has been visible, increasingly, for five years. I was interviewed


in the autumn of 2006, the trial happened at the beginning of 2007,


the issue, therefore, was on their agenda, on Rupert Murdoch ace


agenda since then. It is all very well now this set of revelations


coming daily to show her collaborating fully, as they are


since the beginning of the year. This is clearly been something on


their watch. As was rightly said, not only on their watch, many other


tabloid papers too, four years with police connivance. It reflects very


badly on your leader's judgment, that he was prepared to take into


the heart of Government a man so intimately involved in practices


like this, I refer to Andy Coulson? I know who you refer to, I don't


think that is fair. It was only until today that there was


revelations about e-mails and his possible knowledge. Because, of


course, he had always denied knowing anything about what


happened before becoming editor. He always said that. I'm assuming that


the Prime Minister asked him and he made it clear that he didn't know


anything about it, so on that basis, he was taken on. But, of course, he


then left. So the Prime Minister was just


naive was he? I don't think he was naive, I don't know. All I can


assume is that what the Prime Minister did was that he asked him,


and he gave him assurances, and what more can you do if you take


somebody on their word. But actually I don't think that's the


big issue by any means. I think the two issues which we have already


identified are obviously how News of the World and other newspapers


have operated, since at least 2002, and of course, the role notably of


the Met, and I'm afraid the police are coming out of this extremely


badly. We will explore some of the issues for the police shortly.


Firstly, on this question of who is to carry the can for this, can


Rebekah Brooks survive? We're both lawyers and people have to have


something proved against them, Andy Coulson left his job at the News of


the World, because on his watch it was proved that somebody had been


doing guilty practices, and he went from that job. If it is proved that


other people, and I know other people have been arrested, if it is


proved that other people were acting, and Rebekah, as the editor,


was aware of that, she clearly is going to be culpable. The good


thing about the new investigation s that, again, because I know from


the interviews I have had with the police, they are investigating much


more widely. They have to look at not just the people who went out to


do the job, but the people who commissioned them, collected the


benefit of that job, or who knew about it. Do you think this time


they get might - might get it right? I think their reputation is


at stake. The new Met Commissioner has to realise he has to rescue the


reputation of his force. What is your judgment, do you think Rebekah


Brooks will survive? I'm ashamed she has not resigned already. I


agree legally with Simon. We can't, as it were, demand for her to be


hanged and drawn and quartered immediately, she should have


resigned. You would have resigned Jeremy, I would have resigned.


would have resigned if it happened in the Economist. No doubt about it.


Given what Tom Watson said today, on the basis of what he said in his


speech is accurate, and nobody has said it is accurate, then, that is,


this is so devastating against her. Because, of course, his allegation


is that she was, can we say it. was all under parliamentary


privilege? I will say then if what he said is true it is devastating.


The press have been drinked at what is called the last chance saloon


for 20 years now, what can a public inquiry do? Firstly, you have to


choose somebody who is entirely separate from all the sorts of


investigations, that does mean a judge. Some colleagues were making


the point, a judge not a member of a Masonic lodge, or the golf group,


not part of the network of people, where police chief officers,


somebody who can all for evidence, insisting people answer, and who


has entire independence and reputation, that has to be the way


forward. I think it is certainly a question now of how you negotiate


the terms of reference for that inquiry, and then separately the


inquiry to do with the police. you have faith into inquiries into


the way the press works? No, the key point of the inquiry should be


into the police, actually. It is the relationship between the police


and the press that an inquiry could expose, the press, no. I think that


the press, I'm afraid, have shown a willful disregard for legality, for


morality, for integrity, they deserve almost everything they can


get. As a defender of freedom of speech, I can't say I want


statutory regulation, of course I don't, but, they have laughed at


self-regulation. It has proved to be farcical, absolutely farcical.


And I know that when I introduced my Private Members Bill, it was


with a heavy heart, I would much rather that the press regulated


themselves properly and responsibly. But unfortunately, time and time


again, they have shown that they absolutely cannot. I truthfully


don't know what the answer to that is. If criminal offences were


committed here, the law is already adequate? The police are the


problem, the police should be enforcing the law, they are not,


because they are being bribed by the press. The Information


Commissioner produced a very robust report in 2006, that categorised


thousands of breaches by a whole stream of titles. On many


newspapers? Many newspapers. Again what was said in parliament today,


I appreciate I can't repeat it, if again that was true, the way that


the police have behaved, their failure in the face of clear


perversions of the course of public justice, and other criminal


offences, their failure to investigate and prosecute that,


should cause us all really concern. What is your reading of the public


mood. Clearly, advertisers are, many advertisers are saying, our


customers are saying don't have anything to do with this title,


which Murdoch will really care about, because it will have a


commercial consequence. Is your feeling that the public will start


boycotting this title or what? that is my view. But they buy it in


such a large numbers, it is such a successful product? It is, but I


think what has happened is so appalling, so obscene, for all the


reasons that are absolutely obvious, I think there is going to be a mood


swing against the News of the World, and indeed, if they are not careful,


other newspapers that begin, as they have done for a long time,


overstep the line like this. Other newspapers unthe same title that


have hardly reported the events of the last few days. That is the


thing to me that would be brilliant, said that in the House today. On


Sunday, almost nobody bought the News of the World, that is the real


indictment. I think the big thing that has changed, I said from the


beginning, if it was a matter of politicians and the Royal Family


and celebrities, bluntly that was a pretty limited interest group, once


it started being something that "ordinary people" were aware of,


then it became important. We never expected it to be in the category


we are in now, which is ordinary people at their most vulnerable.


What is your reading of it, as a veteran newspaper man what do you


think will be the consequences? think the consequences will be a


huge call for statutory regulation of the press. I am afraid I'm


cynical about the public's ability to call for this, I think that they


will boycott the News of the World for a week and then start buying it


the week after. I think publicly, politically, in the rest of the


media, there is going to be such a furore about this, it will be very


hard to stave off much tougher regulation of what we do. That is a


terrible turn of events. Our guest here, Simon Hughes,


claimed today that there was endemic corruption in the police


because of the way that the News of the World paid money to officers.


The commissioner of the Metropolitan Police says evidence


from the paper suggests that what he called a "small number "of


police officers were involved. The arguments about how widespread


it was are raging. But how was it done.


One for Richard Watson. The sometimes shadowy relationship


between police officers and journalists now centre stage in the


phone hacking scandal. News International confirmed payments


were made by News of the World for access to confidential information


yesterday. Now we have been told how they did it.


Our source, who has had sight of the evidence, tells us that the


Metropolitan Police have now identified three or four officers,


who were paid by News of the World. We are told the sums of money


involved are tens of thousands of pounds. Paid by one or two senior


journalists, and the transactions were known about by one or two


senior managers. Tonight, we reveal the extraordinary tactic used by


the police officers to cover their tracks.


Corrupt officers face a big problem, checks on telephone numbers,


addresses or criminal records made for a journalist paying them cash,


leave an electronic audit trail, which could be used to expose them


later on. A former News of the World insider told us how they got


around it. We have agreed to protect his identity, because he


now works undercover. The rules they came up with, is they signed


up certain journalists within the organisation as confidential police


informants, and they went through the whole charade of signing them


up. They would be assigned code names, pseudonyms, and that would


be registered as a confidential al, reliable police source. When they


carried out the converting of a name and address into a phone


number or visa versa, they would tap into the system, information


received from X, Frank, Jim, reliable informant, that this


person is dealing in drugs and using this phone number. We


converted the phone number to find out what the address was, or to


find out what the phone number was that he was dealing with.


perfect cover? Yeah. This account has been confirmed by a second


source, this time a former senior policeman from the Met, who used to


work in the anti-corruption unit. He told us setting up bogus


informant accounts was one of the best ways of concealing corruption.


Other cases of real concern are emerging, detectives examining


phone hacking evidence, part of Operation Weeting, have contacted


the family of one of those murdered in the London bombings in 2005.


of my clients, whose number has been confirmed, was an ex-directory


landline. At the time of the bombings, the families were giving


every phone number they had to the police, in the hope that they would


get a phone call to give them some news. So, you have to ask yourself,


where on earth this journalist has got an ex-directory landline number


from. The conclusion, I know, a lot of people are drawing at the moment,


is it must have come from the police. In an exchange with MPs in


2003, which now looks remarkably frank, the then editor of the Sun,


Rebekah Brooks, admitted sometimes money changed hands. We have paid


the police for information in the past. Rebekah Brooks is now chief


executive of News International. Her boss, Rupert Murdoch, said


phone hacking and police payments had been deplorable and


unacceptable, but he backed her today. One source told me that News


International have passed the point of any resistance, and are passing


all incriminating documents to the police. Our former journalist


contact explained just how rife paying policemen had become. If you


look along Wapping highway, going towards Limehouse, pass the plant,


there is a drive-in McDonald's, that would be the favourite point


where the police officer or contributor would pull in, and the


pulling in and handing over envelopes. If a police officer


releases confidential information to a journalist for money, that


police officer is corrupt and he should be dismissed immediately and


face a trial. There is no argument about it. One more development


tonight, we have just been told that another person, only


peripherally connected to the 7/7 bombings, who gave their number to


the police, was also targeted. This is fuelling suspicion that an


entire list of phone number was sold.


With us is the former Metropolitan Police commander, and Bob Milton,


and the former deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. Are you


familiar with this technique for money changing hands? It sounds


very familiar to the way that we would actually handle informants


within the police service, the same methodology is being used. How


protect the identity of an informant, it sounds exactly the


same. Whoever has put the system in place, seemed to have a knowledge


of how to run covert sources. Prescott, when you look at this


scandal, are you embarrassed by the way your party kosied up to News


International? There was far too much cosying up to News


International by all the parties, I used to complain about it in


Government. Perhaps people think these guys are important to winning


an election, I didn't hold that view. Anybody with a special


relationship with Murdoch and his operation should be ashamed of it.


Anybody? This guy just used people, that's clear. He used people, he


used the reporters to get the information he wanted, for


exclusive stories. We now know it is criminal acts. We know they are


involved in payments to the police. I have to say this issue was being


managed since 2006, when Mr Murdoch comes in and tells us we are now


going to be transparent, that was in January, when he apologised. Now


we have a situation where they are giving us the prime ministers to


the police issue. That must have been available, and has been


available for years. So it was a mistake, for your party to get so


close to Murdoch? Individuals get close to them. Murdoch only invites


the top crowd. I had an invitation, I didn't go, I have never been to


one of his things. The other thing raised is the question of the


behaviour of the police, these police investigations have been


pathetic and utter failures so far, why is that? I have no idea, I have


no inside information on this, there is a number of reasons it


could be, one just simply poor judgment. Not an understanding of


how serious this matter was, a cursory investigation, poorly done,


and dismissed, it is not until now we realise how serious this is.


This is a very bad day for the Metropolitan Police Service, it is


a bad day for the press and it is an even worse day for the victims


of terrorism, and serious crime, and the families of soldiers who


have lost their lives. I cannot stress how saddened I am by the


performance of the Metropolitan Police on this. For someone for


years who has been trying to get out of there that my phone has been


hacked. It is charityability, and I understand why you are saying it,


on the one hand it is because they felt there was so many things to


investigate, they came together with the Crown Prosecution Service


in correspondence with me, and say we have come to an agreement, as


long as we have two that is it. There was sacks of evidence. The


real offence was to say there is no evidence of you being hacked at all.


It took a commission Tory come along and say they were wrong. It


was complete lie in which the police were involved, the press


were involved, and the Crown Prosecution Service were co-


operating. I don't know what information they had, more


information seems to have been coming out all the time.


Particularly this latest information concerning payments to


police officers. I thought it was the job of the police to get out


the information? When did the latest information come out


concerning payments to policemen, just recently. If has been


available for - It has been available for a while. In January


they said they would co-operate, and the information was available


then. They are always doing robust informations and then they find


bait more information further on. That is more criminal. Do you have


any confidence in the new police investigation? Yes I do.


Commissioner Hague came to me and said I know you have been pressing


for years about it, I know they have denationwide it, I have to go


to a judicial review to do something about T I have to tell


you straight away that you have had 44 messages, I believe this woman


is making a difference. We have only got that because the police


know they have to clear this mess up. From your experience of the


police, that is what makes the difference, an investigation is


prosecuted thoroughly, when the police believe they are under some


pressure to do so? That is not true. The investigation is prioritised.


They made a very poor judgment, lack of political nouse, lack of


understanding, exactly what was under this investigation. That was


the problem. I think now, and I agree with Lord Prescott, I think


there will be a very fiery investigation now. Perhaps one that


should have happened in the past. One very important difference, when


I saw judicial review, it did mean the police would have to go and


explain why they did or why they did not. It was the court that then


the police realised they could no longer hide behind this story of


one rogue reporter, they would have to actually clear it up in a


judicial review. Don't forget, my first judicial review was turned


down, why? Because the police at the time and Mr Yeats reviews today


tell them they had found all the information for the new inquiry.


Michael Crick was rudely interrupted in telling us the Tory


of the day, he joins us now. What is the latest? Ofcom I believe?


of the big questions today is whether, as well as Jeremy Hunt,


perhaps referring the BSkyB takeover to the Competition


Commission, the other possibility for blocking the BSkyB takeover


might be if Ofcom, the broadcast regulator, were to come out and


decide that in the light of events, News Corporation weren't fit and


proper people to hold a TV license. The way things are at the moment,


it is looking pretty unlikely that will happen in the near future. He


they came out today and said they were monitoring events. It has


emerged the relatives of dead servicemen serving in Afghanistan


and they have been told their phones may have been hacked. The


Chancellor, George Osborne, has come out tonight and said he had


been told that his phone number had been on the list of Glenn Mulcaire.


There is no evidence his phone had been hacked. It was George Osborne


who persuaded David Cameron to take on Andy Coulson as the main spin


doctor. It was the Government's position that they were consulting


all regulatory authorities, they have said this since March,


including Ofcom. When I wrote two nights to Ofcom, delivered it at


midnight, the responsibilities extend to investigating privacy


allegations, interference, invasion of privacy. Why are you not giving


that advice to the Government, and the Government's now opened the


second inquiry, to end on the 8th of July, the second consultation


period. I hope, and I said to them, I'm wade waiting for his - waiting


for his reply. They have a responsibility to report on these


people bidding whether or not they interfere on privacy. It has been


done on a large scale, it is about time they got involved.


Somewhere mixed up in the origins of this sordid affair it what was


said to be a campaign by the News of the World against paedophiles.


Newsnight has learned that for all the campaigns there remain as


failure in the way it was dealt with, for every image of child


abuse, a crime has been committed somewhere. Interpol has told us


that Britain is sliding down the league of countries who are finding


the criminals, because we have no central database to store the


information on. We have asked an investigation. Some of the content


of this report is disturbing. For over 20 years I have worked in the


field of child protection, 12 years as a police detective. The British


police are quite good as investigating and prosecuting those


who distribute indecent images of children. But I believe they are


failing to do enough to identify victims, I think they can do better.


Maybe we can learn from other international law enforcement


investigations. I have come to the headquarters of Interpol in Lyon in


France. The task is to help police combat international crime at


Interpol. They maintain a variety of international databases,


including fingerprints, missing persons and stolen passports.


I'm here at the command and Coordination Centre. Officers here


track an incidents happening all around the world. We can see how


busy it is from this map, ranging from bombings, abduction and


kidnaps of children, even piracy. They can cross reference against


photos and DNA on known criminals. What is important to me, is


rescuing children who have been sexually abused, that is why I'm


here. Interpol have a dedicated team that helps to identify and


rescue children whose images and videos have been posted on-line.


This is a case that has come in the last couple of hours. This is


detective Mick Moran, who co- ordinates the team that deals with


crimes against children. In a couple of minute that is this file


was there available for download, 650 people downloaded it. Now they


didn't download that by accident, they downloaded that knowing what


it was. We have a very young girl here who is performing oral sex on


a man. She's probably, well, six, probably. OK, yes. I would agree


with that, I would say maybe five. She is being forced. The first part


of this case is to give the police in each country the unique address


of every computer that was used to download this appalling video.


a bit of luck in some countries there will be searching in the


morning on that information. The second aspect of that is for us


here, the more important aspect, that is just Post Office. We're


getting the information, we are sending it on to the countries to


deal with it. The second aspect is the more important one here, it is


the identification of this victim. This is a victim that is being


currently abused. Have a look at it there, this is a gross sexual


assault being carried out on this child. This is why victim


identification is so important. This girl here, obviously knows the


offender, I would say, and the offences that she is being made to


commit are horrific offences, she can be no more than five or six


years old. Correct. This is the issue about calling it pornography,


for us it is not pornography it is a crime scene. This child is being


abused. We can do something about it. Is it possible we can identify


her and stop this abuse, one thing is for sure, the vast amount of


sexual abuse takes place at home and in the family circle. One


statistically likely is this guy is her father. This guy who is orally


raping her is her father. Straight away, at basic analysis level, we


can see she's white Caucasian, we can see...The Clues are here in


this video, if they can find and identify them they can rescue a


ildchoo. Whilst they were there they identified - the chide, they


identified the country and the exact city. There are articles of


interest, that article there could be very useful. Before we left they


identified the offender's likely employer and immediately passed on


all the information to the local police. You realise that this is


abuse that is happening right now. Right this minute. And if I told


you, seriously, if I told you that there was a girl being raped down


the corridor, you would quick walls in to get in there and assist ter,


what is different about this? - Assist her, what is different about


this? Interpol has shown that international co-operation is the


key to saving children. I was talking through another case which


resulted in a successful identification. Let's be clear,


this is a baby being horrifically sexually abused. You have seen four


different babies here. In those four images. Now, if we zoom in on


that. The only chance they had to save these very young children from


sexual abuse s through one country collecting all the material at a


central point and sending it on to Interpol. Enabling them to analyse


and identify key clues. Most importantly because of this, it


turned out to be a Metro ticket. And because it is a Metro ticket,


it turned out to be a Metro ticket, I could guess it is something like.


That when the officer from that country looked at this, he said


that is a ticket from the Metro in this city, and there is the station


name. So you have shown me horrific abuse of babies, very young


children, the key, and the most important thing was did you save


those children and did people get arrested? As a result of the work


done here and the identification specialists working within the


community, these kids were saved. It is a happens, these children


were all being abused within a creche environment a nursery, the


mothers were leaving their children off to be minded, and the people


who were running the creche were abusing the children. By locating


the creche, they locate the victims, and then the offenders. Two men who


had access to these children, and who are now subsequently in prison.


We have seen how Interpol work. But does Britain have a similar system?


The UK has no national database for child abuse material. The Child


Exploitation and Online Protection Centre have called for one to exist.


But I have learned it will be another 18 months before one is


created. In the meantime a chaotic system exists, with just 47 cases


forwarded to CEOP last year. They did well and saved 22 children, how


many more could be rescued if a central database existed. Claire


Perry is on the Justice Select Committee, and is campaigning for


tougher measures to sort out child abuse material on the internet. Is


it acceptable to wait another 18 months? It is not acceptable for


one day extra. Children every day are suffering appalling abuse and


those images are distrib buelted worldwide. We have to stop that,


the easiest way is to tag the data, work together for a national


database to be circulated amongst police forces and internationally


we know the technology exists, we know the police force want it. We


know that the victims deserve it, we have to go and lobby ministers


as hard as we can and make sure this is put in place as soon as


possible. There needs to be this central


point, and that central point doesn't exist in every country.


have been shown the latest Interpol statistics of identified victim,


they suggest the UK is not doing very well. When you correct for


population size, Norway is at the top, with 33 per million, followed


by Sweden, at 15, Canada, six, Netherlands five, Australia,


Denmark and Belgium all above three, and the US, Switzerland and Germany


are all above two, the UK scores just 1.5, not even in the top ten.


Unlike those other countries, many of the UK's police forces are


working in isolation, and as a result are failing to co-ordinate


victim identification. This is why we need a national database now.


Now, it is the list that includes the Hammersmith Palais and the


Bolshoi Ballet, goes on through carrot juice, porridge, yellow


socks, cheese and pickle, those among you will have figured out I'm


talking about Ian Dury's Reasons to be Cheerful. It is not what you can


do for yourself but what the Government can do for you.


How do we go about it? What makes you happy? In 2002


Professor Martin Seligman's theory, authentic happiness, laid out a way


of scoring the happiness of individuals. His work spawned the


phrase "positive psychology" and prompted shelves full of self-help


books, and in the professor's view, an overemphasis on cheerness. So, a


revised theory, which distills down to the acronym, PERMA. Experiencing


positive emotions, being aware of feelings as they happen, relating


to others well, finding meaning in your life, and getting a sense of


achievement. He's already inspired David Cameron to announce last year


that there will be a move to try to measure our gross national


happiness. If your goal in politics is to make people happier, and you


know prosperity alone won't deliver happier life. You have to deliver


steps to make sure Government is focused on quality of life as well


as economic growth. If this is sounding pie in the sky, rest


assured the office of national statistics is currently phoning


200,000 households to measure how happy we are. But at a time of cuts


in public spending and demonstrations on the streets, it


is an interesting era in which to do it.


Professor Seligman is here now. Can you really make people feel well at


a time like this? Yes, I actually think you can. The question is


how's life going for you, or how's life going for nation?


Traditionally we have measured the economics of it, but what we want


to know about, in Addicks, is how much positive emotion we have -


addition, is how much positive emotion we have, how good are our


relationships, how engaged are we with the people we love, those are


measurable. Are you a natural cheery chap? No I'm a pessimist, I


think they can only do serious research on happiness. Does that


make you think is it worth aiming for? That is a good question. The


issue is, is there something over and above getting over misery. All


public policy, therapy, is aimed at getting rid of misery, the question


is what's above zero. What is above zero? That is what positive


psychology is about. Well being is somewhere above there? Beauty is


not the absence of uingless, bravery is not just the absence of


cowardice. Well being is not just the absence of well being, it is


the presence of real things. Isn't it an immensely selfish


preoccupation? Not quite, the single If, if you are depressed


right now, and you asked me what is the single mood swing move you can


do, it is to help another person. Doing something for another person


is the single biggest boost. our viewers sitting at home tonight,


give them one piece of advice about improving their sense of well being


about life? There are quite a number of piece, one easy piece is


when we have people, every night before they go to sleep, write down


three things that went well today, and why they went well, it is


addicting and six months later, in random assignment placebo-


controlled tests, people who do this are happier, and have higher


life satisfaction, lower depression. Being conscious of the things that


go well in your life. The thing I liked of your's, what would your


grandchildren say about you, is that what you can explain?


question, how can you have more mean anything life? One thing we do,


is we have people write first a vision of what a positive human


future would be, and then write their obituary through their


grandchildren's eyes, in which they say what they did to contribute to


a positive meaningful future. is David Cameron supposed to apply


this? The first question is if we don't measure the right thing we


don't do the right thing, all we have measured is money. The


question is first, measuring well being. It turns out, over the last


decade, people have found ways of measuring pretty much as well as we


can, schizophrenia, alcoholism, mean anything life, positive


emotion, engagement at work, relations with others. The first


thing is to measure the well being of the British people, and then,


and I think this is quite bold of the Prime Minister, to hold one's


self accountable for changes in well being by public policy. Give


us an example? Well, one thing I work on is schools and schools


systems, actually in Britain as well as Australia and the United


States. So what we do is we take teachers and we teach them the


skills of well being in their own life, then teach it to 10-12-year-


old children, then we follow the children through puberty, what we


find is when teachers learn the skills of well being, for the next


couple of years, children have less depression, less anxiety, and


better conduct. So that's an example of a public policy in


education that leads to greater well being. If I were to say to you,


look a pig, lying around in muck is content. What would you say?


not really after contentment. So I think contentment and the smiley


face are not the variables of real psychological interests, they are


things like how engaged are you at work, how good are your relations,


how much meaning do you have in life. A pig lying around in muck


doesn't have a lot of meaning in life. You believe you can give


people mean anything life? Yes, it turns out that unlike the smiley


face, which is highly inherited, your parents pass it on to you,


mean anything life is everyone's birthright, and it is learnable, it


is teachable by teachers to children, it is teachable in the


United States army. Thank you. Some of tomorrow morning's front


There was a 5% drop in the value of shares in News Corporation in New


York today. According to the Mail, even war widows are on the hackers


hitlist. That's all from Newsnight tonight. Kirsty will be your


therapist tomorrow night, until then, goodnight.


No sign of the weather settling down just yet. A showery prospect


for several days to come. A wet start where you live tomorrow


morning. But it will break up into showers. There will be hail and


thunder mixed in. Very few places will avoid them entirely. A cool


day, particularly when the showers come along in a gusty wind.


Temperatures held back into the mid-to high teens at best in most


places. Across the south west of England, maybe around some of the


coasts lengthy spells of sunshine. Even here I wouldn't rely on it.


Frequent and heavy showers blowing in on the Brit south-westerly wind.


If you catch a shower it could last quite a while. There will be some


heavy storms across Northern Ireland, I think, with hail and


thunder for sure. At least we have lost the persistent heavy rain


across eastern parts of Scotland we had today. Lively downpours to come.


This is the situation on Thursday, and Friday, with more of the same.


Limited brightness, again disappointing temperatures, across


the more southern parts of the UK, every chance that we will see


prolonged rain and gusty winds. The big picture on Friday looks like


Presented by Jeremy Paxman.

Are the News of the World phone hacking allegations the equivalent for journalists to the MPs expenses scandal and a watershed moment for the profession in this country?

Download Subtitles