06/07/2011 Newsnight


06/07/2011

Are the News of the World phone hacking allegations the equivalent for journalists to the MPs expenses scandal and a watershed moment for the profession in this country?


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Transcript


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There will be a public inquiry into how and why the News of the World

:00:08.:00:12.

hacked into people's phone messages. It reflect as rising tide of public

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outrage, and tonight it got worse. The families of soldiers killed in

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Afghanistan have been told it may have happened to them as well.

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I feel so appalled by what has happened, murder victims, terrorist

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victims, who have had their phones hacked is quite disgraceful. With

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the biggest press scandals in modern times getting worse by the

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day, I am afraid he hasn't shown the leadership necessary today.

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Even Rupert Murdoch claims to be scandalised by what his people did,

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yet he also affirms his support for the woman who was his editor and is

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now his chief executive. What is to be done with an organisation which

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treats common humanity and the law with equal contempt. Is the British

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public, in a fit of morality, in any state to make judgment about

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the limits of journalism. Also tonight, Richard Watson learns from

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a former member of the News of the World team, how his paper bought

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policemen. That would be the favourite rendezvous point where

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the policeman or contributor would drive in, the person would go up

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get into the car and hand over the envelope. Everyone knows fid fillia

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is an international crime, but Interpol has said Britain is

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failing to track down paedophiles. Are we more content with ourselves?,

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this man thinks the answer is yes, and David Cameron is listening to

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him. There hasn't been a wave of moral

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outrage like it for years. Today as it emerged that even families of

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some of the victims of the July London bombings, six years ago, had

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their phones hacked, the tide of resentment towards the News of the

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World grew even stronger. They found out about it last night. The

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anniversary of the bombings is tomorrow. Just before we came on

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air, news that families of men killed in Afghanistan have been

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warned they may have been hacked. Even Rupert Murdoch affected to be

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shocked, there was universal condemnation in parliament, and

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such public hostility that a shrew of companies are pulling their

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advertising. First tonight, Michael Crick reports.

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This morning's front page headlines foretold what many MPs are saying

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tonight was a big, big day in British politics.

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Indeed, it was. It was the day when we may have seen significant tweaks

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in the way in which power is distributed in this country. When

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politicians asserted themselves over the media. With MPs, not just

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crying halt, to the practices of tabloid journalist, but also crying

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halt to the expansion of the Murdoch empire.

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Day when backbenchers took the initiative, rather than ministers.

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And also, almost incidently, the day when Ed Miliband finally

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stamped his mark as Labour Party leader.

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At Question Time David Cameron announced there would be an inquiry,

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maybe two inquiries. But thepm seemed rattled at times. And Ed

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Miliband judged the mood rather better. With the biggest press

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scandal in modern times getting worse by the day, I'm afraid he

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hasn't shown the leadership necessary today. He hasn't shown

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the leadership necessary on BSkyB, he hasn't shown the leadership

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necessary on News International. Isn't it the case f the public is

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to have confidence in him, he has to calm the thing that is most

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difficult, he has to accept he made a catastrophic error of judgment by

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bringing Andy Coulson into the heart of his Downing Street machine.

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I take full responsibility for everyone I employ, for everyone I

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appoint, and I take responsibility for everything my Government does.

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What this Government is doing is making sure that the fact the

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public, and I feel, so appalled by what has happened, murder victims,

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terrorist victims, who have had their phones hacked is quite

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disgraceful. That is why it is important there is a full police

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investigation w all the powers that they need. That's why it is

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important we have sthos inquiries to get to the bottom of what -

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those inquiries to get to the bottom of what went wrong. We also

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need to inquire how to improve the ethics and morals of in this

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country make sure they improve for the future. That is what needs to

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be done, that is what this Government is doing, and we don't

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have to take lectures from him about it. Today's emergency debate

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began with a powerful speech from the Labour MP who has called it.

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have let one man have far too great a sway over our national life. At

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least Beryl's Last Year lives in Italy, but Murdoch - Berlussconi

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lives in Italy, but Murdoch lives here but pays his tax elsewhere. No

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country would allow him to have a monoply on sports rights and news

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and movies. America, the home of the aggressive entrepreneur doesn't

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allow it, we shouldn't. There was much on Murdoch's British

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Lieutenant, Rebekah Brooks, and Andy Coulson, the former News of

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the World editor, who quit in January as David Cameron's chief

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spin doctor. It is now reported police have e-

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mails showing Coulson knew of illegal payments to police officers.

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Was Andy Coulson aware of this, and did he tell either the Prime

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Minister, or anyone else in Number Ten about these e-mails? Because if

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he did, it would mean the Prime Minister and members of the

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Government would have been aware of this information before the

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Metropolitan Police. It is important that the Prime Minister

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provide some immediate answers in response to this question. Only a

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couple of Tories were willing to come to the aid of Murdoch's people.

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I have to say that the relish with which the revelations have been

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greeted by some, seeking to take on the Murdoch empire, or engaging in

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political pot shots, strikes me as opportunistic to say the least.

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other big issue, should, or could, the Culture Secretary, Jeremy Hunt,

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delay his decision on whether Murdoch's News Corporation can take

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over the whole of BSkyB. Given that there is clear evidence of serious

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criminality on the part of some people at News International, of in

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any event, without necessarily referring it to the Competition

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Commission, to calling a pause, pending further evidence.

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Ministers said today that legally they couldn't pause, or block the

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BSkyB takeover, on the grounds of the phone hacking scandal. But it

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seems that Jeremy Hunt is likely to take his time now in considering

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the more than 40,000 responses there have been to his latest

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consultation exercise on the takeover. Another idea much mooted

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by MPs, is that the regulator, Ofcom, could perhaps decide, that

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News Corporation weren't now fit and...

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There is some technical problem with that, we can approach the

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subject in a lively fashion because we contacted 24 News International

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journalists today, asking them to defend their employers, not a

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single one of them wanted to talk to us tonight. However, we did

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strike lucky on number 25, with Bill Emmott, former editor of the

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Economist, not staffer there, but as a freelanceer writes columns for

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the Times, we are ajoined by Simon Hughes, the Liberal Democrat, and

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Conservative backbencher and barrister, Anna Soubry.

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You are embarrassed with this title now? I would be more embarrassed if

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I was with News of the World or the other tabloid papers. There are

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some issues here, one the legality, the police not investigating, the

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relationship with politics at the top of these organisations, and at

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the top of politics, and then the fact that this is not going to be

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limited to the News of the World, I'm afraid. We need to explore it,

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what's going on in other tabloids as well. You are not ashamed to be

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working for News International, given what's being revealed? I am

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ashamed by what is going on in News of the World, absolutely, I'm

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ashamed of any organisation that does. That I write columns for them

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on an independent basis. But if they refuse to carry on a proper

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investigation of this, if they refuse to really sort this out,

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obviously anyone like me has to consider their position of writing

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for such an organisation, absolutely. Simon Hughes, do you

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believe that Rupert Murdoch is embarrassed and finds the whole

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thing deplorable? He has be hugely embarrassed. The problem for him is

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this has been visible, increasingly, for five years. I was interviewed

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in the autumn of 2006, the trial happened at the beginning of 2007,

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the issue, therefore, was on their agenda, on Rupert Murdoch ace

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agenda since then. It is all very well now this set of revelations

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coming daily to show her collaborating fully, as they are

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since the beginning of the year. This is clearly been something on

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their watch. As was rightly said, not only on their watch, many other

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tabloid papers too, four years with police connivance. It reflects very

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badly on your leader's judgment, that he was prepared to take into

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the heart of Government a man so intimately involved in practices

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like this, I refer to Andy Coulson? I know who you refer to, I don't

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think that is fair. It was only until today that there was

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revelations about e-mails and his possible knowledge. Because, of

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course, he had always denied knowing anything about what

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happened before becoming editor. He always said that. I'm assuming that

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the Prime Minister asked him and he made it clear that he didn't know

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anything about it, so on that basis, he was taken on. But, of course, he

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then left. So the Prime Minister was just

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naive was he? I don't think he was naive, I don't know. All I can

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assume is that what the Prime Minister did was that he asked him,

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and he gave him assurances, and what more can you do if you take

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somebody on their word. But actually I don't think that's the

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big issue by any means. I think the two issues which we have already

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identified are obviously how News of the World and other newspapers

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have operated, since at least 2002, and of course, the role notably of

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the Met, and I'm afraid the police are coming out of this extremely

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badly. We will explore some of the issues for the police shortly.

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Firstly, on this question of who is to carry the can for this, can

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Rebekah Brooks survive? We're both lawyers and people have to have

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something proved against them, Andy Coulson left his job at the News of

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the World, because on his watch it was proved that somebody had been

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doing guilty practices, and he went from that job. If it is proved that

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other people, and I know other people have been arrested, if it is

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proved that other people were acting, and Rebekah, as the editor,

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was aware of that, she clearly is going to be culpable. The good

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thing about the new investigation s that, again, because I know from

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the interviews I have had with the police, they are investigating much

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more widely. They have to look at not just the people who went out to

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do the job, but the people who commissioned them, collected the

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benefit of that job, or who knew about it. Do you think this time

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they get might - might get it right? I think their reputation is

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at stake. The new Met Commissioner has to realise he has to rescue the

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reputation of his force. What is your judgment, do you think Rebekah

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Brooks will survive? I'm ashamed she has not resigned already. I

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agree legally with Simon. We can't, as it were, demand for her to be

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hanged and drawn and quartered immediately, she should have

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resigned. You would have resigned Jeremy, I would have resigned.

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would have resigned if it happened in the Economist. No doubt about it.

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Given what Tom Watson said today, on the basis of what he said in his

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speech is accurate, and nobody has said it is accurate, then, that is,

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this is so devastating against her. Because, of course, his allegation

:13:10.:13:20.
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is that she was, can we say it. was all under parliamentary

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privilege? I will say then if what he said is true it is devastating.

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The press have been drinked at what is called the last chance saloon

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for 20 years now, what can a public inquiry do? Firstly, you have to

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choose somebody who is entirely separate from all the sorts of

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investigations, that does mean a judge. Some colleagues were making

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the point, a judge not a member of a Masonic lodge, or the golf group,

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not part of the network of people, where police chief officers,

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somebody who can all for evidence, insisting people answer, and who

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has entire independence and reputation, that has to be the way

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forward. I think it is certainly a question now of how you negotiate

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the terms of reference for that inquiry, and then separately the

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inquiry to do with the police. you have faith into inquiries into

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the way the press works? No, the key point of the inquiry should be

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into the police, actually. It is the relationship between the police

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and the press that an inquiry could expose, the press, no. I think that

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the press, I'm afraid, have shown a willful disregard for legality, for

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morality, for integrity, they deserve almost everything they can

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get. As a defender of freedom of speech, I can't say I want

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statutory regulation, of course I don't, but, they have laughed at

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self-regulation. It has proved to be farcical, absolutely farcical.

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And I know that when I introduced my Private Members Bill, it was

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with a heavy heart, I would much rather that the press regulated

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themselves properly and responsibly. But unfortunately, time and time

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again, they have shown that they absolutely cannot. I truthfully

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don't know what the answer to that is. If criminal offences were

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committed here, the law is already adequate? The police are the

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problem, the police should be enforcing the law, they are not,

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because they are being bribed by the press. The Information

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Commissioner produced a very robust report in 2006, that categorised

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thousands of breaches by a whole stream of titles. On many

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newspapers? Many newspapers. Again what was said in parliament today,

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I appreciate I can't repeat it, if again that was true, the way that

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the police have behaved, their failure in the face of clear

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perversions of the course of public justice, and other criminal

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offences, their failure to investigate and prosecute that,

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should cause us all really concern. What is your reading of the public

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mood. Clearly, advertisers are, many advertisers are saying, our

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customers are saying don't have anything to do with this title,

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which Murdoch will really care about, because it will have a

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commercial consequence. Is your feeling that the public will start

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boycotting this title or what? that is my view. But they buy it in

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such a large numbers, it is such a successful product? It is, but I

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think what has happened is so appalling, so obscene, for all the

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reasons that are absolutely obvious, I think there is going to be a mood

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swing against the News of the World, and indeed, if they are not careful,

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other newspapers that begin, as they have done for a long time,

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overstep the line like this. Other newspapers unthe same title that

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have hardly reported the events of the last few days. That is the

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thing to me that would be brilliant, said that in the House today. On

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Sunday, almost nobody bought the News of the World, that is the real

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indictment. I think the big thing that has changed, I said from the

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beginning, if it was a matter of politicians and the Royal Family

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and celebrities, bluntly that was a pretty limited interest group, once

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it started being something that "ordinary people" were aware of,

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then it became important. We never expected it to be in the category

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we are in now, which is ordinary people at their most vulnerable.

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What is your reading of it, as a veteran newspaper man what do you

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think will be the consequences? think the consequences will be a

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huge call for statutory regulation of the press. I am afraid I'm

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cynical about the public's ability to call for this, I think that they

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will boycott the News of the World for a week and then start buying it

:17:35.:17:38.

the week after. I think publicly, politically, in the rest of the

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media, there is going to be such a furore about this, it will be very

:17:43.:17:48.

hard to stave off much tougher regulation of what we do. That is a

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terrible turn of events. Our guest here, Simon Hughes,

:17:53.:17:56.

claimed today that there was endemic corruption in the police

:17:56.:18:00.

because of the way that the News of the World paid money to officers.

:18:00.:18:02.

The commissioner of the Metropolitan Police says evidence

:18:02.:18:06.

from the paper suggests that what he called a "small number "of

:18:06.:18:09.

police officers were involved. The arguments about how widespread

:18:09.:18:13.

it was are raging. But how was it done.

:18:13.:18:17.

One for Richard Watson. The sometimes shadowy relationship

:18:17.:18:21.

between police officers and journalists now centre stage in the

:18:21.:18:24.

phone hacking scandal. News International confirmed payments

:18:24.:18:27.

were made by News of the World for access to confidential information

:18:27.:18:31.

yesterday. Now we have been told how they did it.

:18:31.:18:35.

Our source, who has had sight of the evidence, tells us that the

:18:35.:18:38.

Metropolitan Police have now identified three or four officers,

:18:38.:18:42.

who were paid by News of the World. We are told the sums of money

:18:42.:18:46.

involved are tens of thousands of pounds. Paid by one or two senior

:18:46.:18:50.

journalists, and the transactions were known about by one or two

:18:50.:18:54.

senior managers. Tonight, we reveal the extraordinary tactic used by

:18:54.:18:58.

the police officers to cover their tracks.

:18:58.:19:03.

Corrupt officers face a big problem, checks on telephone numbers,

:19:03.:19:07.

addresses or criminal records made for a journalist paying them cash,

:19:07.:19:10.

leave an electronic audit trail, which could be used to expose them

:19:10.:19:14.

later on. A former News of the World insider told us how they got

:19:14.:19:17.

around it. We have agreed to protect his identity, because he

:19:17.:19:21.

now works undercover. The rules they came up with, is they signed

:19:21.:19:25.

up certain journalists within the organisation as confidential police

:19:25.:19:29.

informants, and they went through the whole charade of signing them

:19:29.:19:35.

up. They would be assigned code names, pseudonyms, and that would

:19:35.:19:41.

be registered as a confidential al, reliable police source. When they

:19:41.:19:44.

carried out the converting of a name and address into a phone

:19:44.:19:48.

number or visa versa, they would tap into the system, information

:19:48.:19:53.

received from X, Frank, Jim, reliable informant, that this

:19:53.:19:56.

person is dealing in drugs and using this phone number. We

:19:56.:19:59.

converted the phone number to find out what the address was, or to

:19:59.:20:03.

find out what the phone number was that he was dealing with.

:20:03.:20:06.

perfect cover? Yeah. This account has been confirmed by a second

:20:06.:20:11.

source, this time a former senior policeman from the Met, who used to

:20:11.:20:15.

work in the anti-corruption unit. He told us setting up bogus

:20:15.:20:19.

informant accounts was one of the best ways of concealing corruption.

:20:19.:20:23.

Other cases of real concern are emerging, detectives examining

:20:23.:20:26.

phone hacking evidence, part of Operation Weeting, have contacted

:20:26.:20:32.

the family of one of those murdered in the London bombings in 2005.

:20:32.:20:40.

of my clients, whose number has been confirmed, was an ex-directory

:20:40.:20:44.

landline. At the time of the bombings, the families were giving

:20:44.:20:47.

every phone number they had to the police, in the hope that they would

:20:47.:20:53.

get a phone call to give them some news. So, you have to ask yourself,

:20:53.:20:58.

where on earth this journalist has got an ex-directory landline number

:20:58.:21:06.

from. The conclusion, I know, a lot of people are drawing at the moment,

:21:06.:21:10.

is it must have come from the police. In an exchange with MPs in

:21:10.:21:16.

2003, which now looks remarkably frank, the then editor of the Sun,

:21:16.:21:19.

Rebekah Brooks, admitted sometimes money changed hands. We have paid

:21:19.:21:24.

the police for information in the past. Rebekah Brooks is now chief

:21:24.:21:26.

executive of News International. Her boss, Rupert Murdoch, said

:21:26.:21:31.

phone hacking and police payments had been deplorable and

:21:31.:21:35.

unacceptable, but he backed her today. One source told me that News

:21:35.:21:39.

International have passed the point of any resistance, and are passing

:21:39.:21:43.

all incriminating documents to the police. Our former journalist

:21:43.:21:48.

contact explained just how rife paying policemen had become. If you

:21:48.:21:51.

look along Wapping highway, going towards Limehouse, pass the plant,

:21:51.:21:56.

there is a drive-in McDonald's, that would be the favourite point

:21:56.:22:03.

where the police officer or contributor would pull in, and the

:22:03.:22:07.

pulling in and handing over envelopes. If a police officer

:22:07.:22:09.

releases confidential information to a journalist for money, that

:22:09.:22:12.

police officer is corrupt and he should be dismissed immediately and

:22:12.:22:18.

face a trial. There is no argument about it. One more development

:22:18.:22:23.

tonight, we have just been told that another person, only

:22:23.:22:26.

peripherally connected to the 7/7 bombings, who gave their number to

:22:26.:22:30.

the police, was also targeted. This is fuelling suspicion that an

:22:30.:22:35.

entire list of phone number was sold.

:22:35.:22:40.

With us is the former Metropolitan Police commander, and Bob Milton,

:22:41.:22:43.

and the former deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. Are you

:22:43.:22:46.

familiar with this technique for money changing hands? It sounds

:22:46.:22:50.

very familiar to the way that we would actually handle informants

:22:50.:22:56.

within the police service, the same methodology is being used. How

:22:56.:22:59.

protect the identity of an informant, it sounds exactly the

:22:59.:23:03.

same. Whoever has put the system in place, seemed to have a knowledge

:23:03.:23:07.

of how to run covert sources. Prescott, when you look at this

:23:07.:23:12.

scandal, are you embarrassed by the way your party kosied up to News

:23:12.:23:21.

International? There was far too much cosying up to News

:23:21.:23:24.

International by all the parties, I used to complain about it in

:23:24.:23:29.

Government. Perhaps people think these guys are important to winning

:23:29.:23:32.

an election, I didn't hold that view. Anybody with a special

:23:32.:23:36.

relationship with Murdoch and his operation should be ashamed of it.

:23:36.:23:40.

Anybody? This guy just used people, that's clear. He used people, he

:23:40.:23:44.

used the reporters to get the information he wanted, for

:23:44.:23:47.

exclusive stories. We now know it is criminal acts. We know they are

:23:47.:23:51.

involved in payments to the police. I have to say this issue was being

:23:51.:23:55.

managed since 2006, when Mr Murdoch comes in and tells us we are now

:23:55.:23:59.

going to be transparent, that was in January, when he apologised. Now

:23:59.:24:02.

we have a situation where they are giving us the prime ministers to

:24:02.:24:05.

the police issue. That must have been available, and has been

:24:05.:24:10.

available for years. So it was a mistake, for your party to get so

:24:10.:24:14.

close to Murdoch? Individuals get close to them. Murdoch only invites

:24:14.:24:19.

the top crowd. I had an invitation, I didn't go, I have never been to

:24:19.:24:22.

one of his things. The other thing raised is the question of the

:24:22.:24:25.

behaviour of the police, these police investigations have been

:24:25.:24:29.

pathetic and utter failures so far, why is that? I have no idea, I have

:24:29.:24:32.

no inside information on this, there is a number of reasons it

:24:32.:24:36.

could be, one just simply poor judgment. Not an understanding of

:24:36.:24:40.

how serious this matter was, a cursory investigation, poorly done,

:24:40.:24:44.

and dismissed, it is not until now we realise how serious this is.

:24:44.:24:48.

This is a very bad day for the Metropolitan Police Service, it is

:24:48.:24:52.

a bad day for the press and it is an even worse day for the victims

:24:52.:24:55.

of terrorism, and serious crime, and the families of soldiers who

:24:55.:25:01.

have lost their lives. I cannot stress how saddened I am by the

:25:01.:25:04.

performance of the Metropolitan Police on this. For someone for

:25:05.:25:13.

years who has been trying to get out of there that my phone has been

:25:13.:25:16.

hacked. It is charityability, and I understand why you are saying it,

:25:16.:25:20.

on the one hand it is because they felt there was so many things to

:25:20.:25:23.

investigate, they came together with the Crown Prosecution Service

:25:23.:25:26.

in correspondence with me, and say we have come to an agreement, as

:25:26.:25:30.

long as we have two that is it. There was sacks of evidence. The

:25:30.:25:33.

real offence was to say there is no evidence of you being hacked at all.

:25:33.:25:38.

It took a commission Tory come along and say they were wrong. It

:25:38.:25:41.

was complete lie in which the police were involved, the press

:25:41.:25:43.

were involved, and the Crown Prosecution Service were co-

:25:43.:25:46.

operating. I don't know what information they had, more

:25:46.:25:49.

information seems to have been coming out all the time.

:25:49.:25:51.

Particularly this latest information concerning payments to

:25:51.:25:57.

police officers. I thought it was the job of the police to get out

:25:57.:26:01.

the information? When did the latest information come out

:26:01.:26:07.

concerning payments to policemen, just recently. If has been

:26:07.:26:11.

available for - It has been available for a while. In January

:26:11.:26:15.

they said they would co-operate, and the information was available

:26:15.:26:18.

then. They are always doing robust informations and then they find

:26:18.:26:22.

bait more information further on. That is more criminal. Do you have

:26:22.:26:26.

any confidence in the new police investigation? Yes I do.

:26:26.:26:29.

Commissioner Hague came to me and said I know you have been pressing

:26:29.:26:33.

for years about it, I know they have denationwide it, I have to go

:26:33.:26:37.

to a judicial review to do something about T I have to tell

:26:37.:26:40.

you straight away that you have had 44 messages, I believe this woman

:26:40.:26:43.

is making a difference. We have only got that because the police

:26:43.:26:47.

know they have to clear this mess up. From your experience of the

:26:47.:26:52.

police, that is what makes the difference, an investigation is

:26:52.:26:56.

prosecuted thoroughly, when the police believe they are under some

:26:56.:27:00.

pressure to do so? That is not true. The investigation is prioritised.

:27:00.:27:06.

They made a very poor judgment, lack of political nouse, lack of

:27:06.:27:08.

understanding, exactly what was under this investigation. That was

:27:08.:27:14.

the problem. I think now, and I agree with Lord Prescott, I think

:27:14.:27:16.

there will be a very fiery investigation now. Perhaps one that

:27:16.:27:20.

should have happened in the past. One very important difference, when

:27:20.:27:24.

I saw judicial review, it did mean the police would have to go and

:27:24.:27:27.

explain why they did or why they did not. It was the court that then

:27:27.:27:31.

the police realised they could no longer hide behind this story of

:27:31.:27:37.

one rogue reporter, they would have to actually clear it up in a

:27:37.:27:41.

judicial review. Don't forget, my first judicial review was turned

:27:41.:27:45.

down, why? Because the police at the time and Mr Yeats reviews today

:27:45.:27:52.

tell them they had found all the information for the new inquiry.

:27:52.:27:55.

Michael Crick was rudely interrupted in telling us the Tory

:27:55.:28:01.

of the day, he joins us now. What is the latest? Ofcom I believe?

:28:01.:28:05.

of the big questions today is whether, as well as Jeremy Hunt,

:28:05.:28:09.

perhaps referring the BSkyB takeover to the Competition

:28:09.:28:13.

Commission, the other possibility for blocking the BSkyB takeover

:28:13.:28:17.

might be if Ofcom, the broadcast regulator, were to come out and

:28:17.:28:23.

decide that in the light of events, News Corporation weren't fit and

:28:23.:28:26.

proper people to hold a TV license. The way things are at the moment,

:28:26.:28:31.

it is looking pretty unlikely that will happen in the near future. He

:28:31.:28:39.

they came out today and said they were monitoring events. It has

:28:39.:28:47.

emerged the relatives of dead servicemen serving in Afghanistan

:28:47.:28:51.

and they have been told their phones may have been hacked. The

:28:52.:28:55.

Chancellor, George Osborne, has come out tonight and said he had

:28:55.:28:59.

been told that his phone number had been on the list of Glenn Mulcaire.

:28:59.:29:05.

There is no evidence his phone had been hacked. It was George Osborne

:29:05.:29:09.

who persuaded David Cameron to take on Andy Coulson as the main spin

:29:09.:29:11.

doctor. It was the Government's position that they were consulting

:29:11.:29:15.

all regulatory authorities, they have said this since March,

:29:15.:29:20.

including Ofcom. When I wrote two nights to Ofcom, delivered it at

:29:20.:29:23.

midnight, the responsibilities extend to investigating privacy

:29:23.:29:27.

allegations, interference, invasion of privacy. Why are you not giving

:29:27.:29:31.

that advice to the Government, and the Government's now opened the

:29:31.:29:34.

second inquiry, to end on the 8th of July, the second consultation

:29:34.:29:43.

period. I hope, and I said to them, I'm wade waiting for his - waiting

:29:43.:29:47.

for his reply. They have a responsibility to report on these

:29:47.:29:50.

people bidding whether or not they interfere on privacy. It has been

:29:50.:29:54.

done on a large scale, it is about time they got involved.

:29:54.:29:59.

Somewhere mixed up in the origins of this sordid affair it what was

:29:59.:30:02.

said to be a campaign by the News of the World against paedophiles.

:30:02.:30:09.

Newsnight has learned that for all the campaigns there remain as

:30:09.:30:12.

failure in the way it was dealt with, for every image of child

:30:12.:30:17.

abuse, a crime has been committed somewhere. Interpol has told us

:30:17.:30:22.

that Britain is sliding down the league of countries who are finding

:30:22.:30:27.

the criminals, because we have no central database to store the

:30:27.:30:31.

information on. We have asked an investigation. Some of the content

:30:31.:30:36.

of this report is disturbing. For over 20 years I have worked in the

:30:36.:30:41.

field of child protection, 12 years as a police detective. The British

:30:41.:30:44.

police are quite good as investigating and prosecuting those

:30:44.:30:49.

who distribute indecent images of children. But I believe they are

:30:49.:30:53.

failing to do enough to identify victims, I think they can do better.

:30:53.:30:57.

Maybe we can learn from other international law enforcement

:30:57.:31:03.

investigations. I have come to the headquarters of Interpol in Lyon in

:31:03.:31:08.

France. The task is to help police combat international crime at

:31:08.:31:12.

Interpol. They maintain a variety of international databases,

:31:12.:31:16.

including fingerprints, missing persons and stolen passports.

:31:16.:31:21.

I'm here at the command and Coordination Centre. Officers here

:31:21.:31:24.

track an incidents happening all around the world. We can see how

:31:24.:31:28.

busy it is from this map, ranging from bombings, abduction and

:31:28.:31:33.

kidnaps of children, even piracy. They can cross reference against

:31:33.:31:38.

photos and DNA on known criminals. What is important to me, is

:31:38.:31:42.

rescuing children who have been sexually abused, that is why I'm

:31:42.:31:46.

here. Interpol have a dedicated team that helps to identify and

:31:46.:31:52.

rescue children whose images and videos have been posted on-line.

:31:52.:31:56.

This is a case that has come in the last couple of hours. This is

:31:56.:31:59.

detective Mick Moran, who co- ordinates the team that deals with

:31:59.:32:03.

crimes against children. In a couple of minute that is this file

:32:03.:32:09.

was there available for download, 650 people downloaded it. Now they

:32:09.:32:12.

didn't download that by accident, they downloaded that knowing what

:32:12.:32:20.

it was. We have a very young girl here who is performing oral sex on

:32:20.:32:26.

a man. She's probably, well, six, probably. OK, yes. I would agree

:32:26.:32:30.

with that, I would say maybe five. She is being forced. The first part

:32:30.:32:34.

of this case is to give the police in each country the unique address

:32:34.:32:39.

of every computer that was used to download this appalling video.

:32:39.:32:43.

a bit of luck in some countries there will be searching in the

:32:43.:32:46.

morning on that information. The second aspect of that is for us

:32:46.:32:49.

here, the more important aspect, that is just Post Office. We're

:32:49.:32:53.

getting the information, we are sending it on to the countries to

:32:53.:32:56.

deal with it. The second aspect is the more important one here, it is

:32:56.:33:01.

the identification of this victim. This is a victim that is being

:33:01.:33:05.

currently abused. Have a look at it there, this is a gross sexual

:33:05.:33:09.

assault being carried out on this child. This is why victim

:33:09.:33:12.

identification is so important. This girl here, obviously knows the

:33:12.:33:17.

offender, I would say, and the offences that she is being made to

:33:17.:33:22.

commit are horrific offences, she can be no more than five or six

:33:22.:33:26.

years old. Correct. This is the issue about calling it pornography,

:33:26.:33:30.

for us it is not pornography it is a crime scene. This child is being

:33:30.:33:34.

abused. We can do something about it. Is it possible we can identify

:33:34.:33:39.

her and stop this abuse, one thing is for sure, the vast amount of

:33:39.:33:45.

sexual abuse takes place at home and in the family circle. One

:33:45.:33:50.

statistically likely is this guy is her father. This guy who is orally

:33:50.:33:55.

raping her is her father. Straight away, at basic analysis level, we

:33:55.:33:59.

can see she's white Caucasian, we can see...The Clues are here in

:33:59.:34:03.

this video, if they can find and identify them they can rescue a

:34:03.:34:11.

ildchoo. Whilst they were there they identified - the chide, they

:34:11.:34:14.

identified the country and the exact city. There are articles of

:34:14.:34:18.

interest, that article there could be very useful. Before we left they

:34:18.:34:21.

identified the offender's likely employer and immediately passed on

:34:21.:34:25.

all the information to the local police. You realise that this is

:34:25.:34:29.

abuse that is happening right now. Right this minute. And if I told

:34:29.:34:35.

you, seriously, if I told you that there was a girl being raped down

:34:35.:34:39.

the corridor, you would quick walls in to get in there and assist ter,

:34:39.:34:45.

what is different about this? - Assist her, what is different about

:34:45.:34:48.

this? Interpol has shown that international co-operation is the

:34:48.:34:52.

key to saving children. I was talking through another case which

:34:52.:34:56.

resulted in a successful identification. Let's be clear,

:34:56.:35:03.

this is a baby being horrifically sexually abused. You have seen four

:35:03.:35:09.

different babies here. In those four images. Now, if we zoom in on

:35:09.:35:19.
:35:19.:35:20.

that. The only chance they had to save these very young children from

:35:20.:35:23.

sexual abuse s through one country collecting all the material at a

:35:23.:35:28.

central point and sending it on to Interpol. Enabling them to analyse

:35:28.:35:32.

and identify key clues. Most importantly because of this, it

:35:32.:35:37.

turned out to be a Metro ticket. And because it is a Metro ticket,

:35:37.:35:42.

it turned out to be a Metro ticket, I could guess it is something like.

:35:42.:35:45.

That when the officer from that country looked at this, he said

:35:45.:35:50.

that is a ticket from the Metro in this city, and there is the station

:35:50.:35:54.

name. So you have shown me horrific abuse of babies, very young

:35:54.:35:59.

children, the key, and the most important thing was did you save

:35:59.:36:03.

those children and did people get arrested? As a result of the work

:36:03.:36:06.

done here and the identification specialists working within the

:36:06.:36:09.

community, these kids were saved. It is a happens, these children

:36:09.:36:13.

were all being abused within a creche environment a nursery, the

:36:13.:36:17.

mothers were leaving their children off to be minded, and the people

:36:17.:36:21.

who were running the creche were abusing the children. By locating

:36:21.:36:26.

the creche, they locate the victims, and then the offenders. Two men who

:36:26.:36:31.

had access to these children, and who are now subsequently in prison.

:36:31.:36:38.

We have seen how Interpol work. But does Britain have a similar system?

:36:38.:36:44.

The UK has no national database for child abuse material. The Child

:36:44.:36:46.

Exploitation and Online Protection Centre have called for one to exist.

:36:46.:36:52.

But I have learned it will be another 18 months before one is

:36:52.:36:58.

created. In the meantime a chaotic system exists, with just 47 cases

:36:58.:37:04.

forwarded to CEOP last year. They did well and saved 22 children, how

:37:04.:37:10.

many more could be rescued if a central database existed. Claire

:37:10.:37:14.

Perry is on the Justice Select Committee, and is campaigning for

:37:14.:37:24.
:37:24.:37:26.

tougher measures to sort out child abuse material on the internet. Is

:37:26.:37:30.

it acceptable to wait another 18 months? It is not acceptable for

:37:30.:37:36.

one day extra. Children every day are suffering appalling abuse and

:37:36.:37:39.

those images are distrib buelted worldwide. We have to stop that,

:37:39.:37:44.

the easiest way is to tag the data, work together for a national

:37:44.:37:47.

database to be circulated amongst police forces and internationally

:37:47.:37:50.

we know the technology exists, we know the police force want it. We

:37:50.:37:54.

know that the victims deserve it, we have to go and lobby ministers

:37:54.:37:57.

as hard as we can and make sure this is put in place as soon as

:37:57.:38:00.

possible. There needs to be this central

:38:00.:38:04.

point, and that central point doesn't exist in every country.

:38:04.:38:08.

have been shown the latest Interpol statistics of identified victim,

:38:08.:38:14.

they suggest the UK is not doing very well. When you correct for

:38:14.:38:19.

population size, Norway is at the top, with 33 per million, followed

:38:19.:38:27.

by Sweden, at 15, Canada, six, Netherlands five, Australia,

:38:27.:38:32.

Denmark and Belgium all above three, and the US, Switzerland and Germany

:38:32.:38:38.

are all above two, the UK scores just 1.5, not even in the top ten.

:38:38.:38:42.

Unlike those other countries, many of the UK's police forces are

:38:42.:38:46.

working in isolation, and as a result are failing to co-ordinate

:38:47.:38:53.

victim identification. This is why we need a national database now.

:38:53.:38:58.

Now, it is the list that includes the Hammersmith Palais and the

:38:58.:39:03.

Bolshoi Ballet, goes on through carrot juice, porridge, yellow

:39:03.:39:10.

socks, cheese and pickle, those among you will have figured out I'm

:39:10.:39:17.

talking about Ian Dury's Reasons to be Cheerful. It is not what you can

:39:17.:39:24.

do for yourself but what the Government can do for you.

:39:24.:39:34.
:39:34.:39:36.

How do we go about it? What makes you happy? In 2002

:39:36.:39:40.

Professor Martin Seligman's theory, authentic happiness, laid out a way

:39:40.:39:45.

of scoring the happiness of individuals. His work spawned the

:39:46.:39:50.

phrase "positive psychology" and prompted shelves full of self-help

:39:50.:39:57.

books, and in the professor's view, an overemphasis on cheerness. So, a

:39:57.:40:04.

revised theory, which distills down to the acronym, PERMA. Experiencing

:40:04.:40:07.

positive emotions, being aware of feelings as they happen, relating

:40:07.:40:12.

to others well, finding meaning in your life, and getting a sense of

:40:12.:40:15.

achievement. He's already inspired David Cameron to announce last year

:40:15.:40:19.

that there will be a move to try to measure our gross national

:40:19.:40:29.
:40:29.:40:35.

happiness. If your goal in politics is to make people happier, and you

:40:35.:40:39.

know prosperity alone won't deliver happier life. You have to deliver

:40:39.:40:45.

steps to make sure Government is focused on quality of life as well

:40:45.:40:48.

as economic growth. If this is sounding pie in the sky, rest

:40:48.:40:53.

assured the office of national statistics is currently phoning

:40:53.:40:57.

200,000 households to measure how happy we are. But at a time of cuts

:40:57.:41:00.

in public spending and demonstrations on the streets, it

:41:00.:41:07.

is an interesting era in which to do it.

:41:07.:41:13.

Professor Seligman is here now. Can you really make people feel well at

:41:13.:41:17.

a time like this? Yes, I actually think you can. The question is

:41:17.:41:22.

how's life going for you, or how's life going for nation?

:41:22.:41:25.

Traditionally we have measured the economics of it, but what we want

:41:25.:41:30.

to know about, in Addicks, is how much positive emotion we have -

:41:31.:41:34.

addition, is how much positive emotion we have, how good are our

:41:34.:41:43.

relationships, how engaged are we with the people we love, those are

:41:43.:41:49.

measurable. Are you a natural cheery chap? No I'm a pessimist, I

:41:49.:41:53.

think they can only do serious research on happiness. Does that

:41:53.:41:58.

make you think is it worth aiming for? That is a good question. The

:41:58.:42:01.

issue is, is there something over and above getting over misery. All

:42:01.:42:06.

public policy, therapy, is aimed at getting rid of misery, the question

:42:06.:42:12.

is what's above zero. What is above zero? That is what positive

:42:12.:42:16.

psychology is about. Well being is somewhere above there? Beauty is

:42:16.:42:20.

not the absence of uingless, bravery is not just the absence of

:42:20.:42:24.

cowardice. Well being is not just the absence of well being, it is

:42:24.:42:28.

the presence of real things. Isn't it an immensely selfish

:42:28.:42:38.

preoccupation? Not quite, the single If, if you are depressed

:42:38.:42:45.

right now, and you asked me what is the single mood swing move you can

:42:45.:42:49.

do, it is to help another person. Doing something for another person

:42:49.:42:53.

is the single biggest boost. our viewers sitting at home tonight,

:42:53.:42:58.

give them one piece of advice about improving their sense of well being

:42:58.:43:02.

about life? There are quite a number of piece, one easy piece is

:43:02.:43:05.

when we have people, every night before they go to sleep, write down

:43:05.:43:09.

three things that went well today, and why they went well, it is

:43:09.:43:15.

addicting and six months later, in random assignment placebo-

:43:15.:43:19.

controlled tests, people who do this are happier, and have higher

:43:19.:43:23.

life satisfaction, lower depression. Being conscious of the things that

:43:23.:43:28.

go well in your life. The thing I liked of your's, what would your

:43:28.:43:34.

grandchildren say about you, is that what you can explain?

:43:34.:43:38.

question, how can you have more mean anything life? One thing we do,

:43:38.:43:41.

is we have people write first a vision of what a positive human

:43:41.:43:46.

future would be, and then write their obituary through their

:43:46.:43:51.

grandchildren's eyes, in which they say what they did to contribute to

:43:52.:43:56.

a positive meaningful future. is David Cameron supposed to apply

:43:56.:43:59.

this? The first question is if we don't measure the right thing we

:43:59.:44:02.

don't do the right thing, all we have measured is money. The

:44:02.:44:08.

question is first, measuring well being. It turns out, over the last

:44:08.:44:12.

decade, people have found ways of measuring pretty much as well as we

:44:12.:44:15.

can, schizophrenia, alcoholism, mean anything life, positive

:44:15.:44:19.

emotion, engagement at work, relations with others. The first

:44:19.:44:23.

thing is to measure the well being of the British people, and then,

:44:23.:44:29.

and I think this is quite bold of the Prime Minister, to hold one's

:44:29.:44:33.

self accountable for changes in well being by public policy. Give

:44:33.:44:38.

us an example? Well, one thing I work on is schools and schools

:44:38.:44:41.

systems, actually in Britain as well as Australia and the United

:44:41.:44:47.

States. So what we do is we take teachers and we teach them the

:44:47.:44:53.

skills of well being in their own life, then teach it to 10-12-year-

:44:53.:44:57.

old children, then we follow the children through puberty, what we

:44:57.:45:01.

find is when teachers learn the skills of well being, for the next

:45:01.:45:06.

couple of years, children have less depression, less anxiety, and

:45:06.:45:10.

better conduct. So that's an example of a public policy in

:45:10.:45:14.

education that leads to greater well being. If I were to say to you,

:45:14.:45:20.

look a pig, lying around in muck is content. What would you say?

:45:20.:45:24.

not really after contentment. So I think contentment and the smiley

:45:24.:45:28.

face are not the variables of real psychological interests, they are

:45:28.:45:31.

things like how engaged are you at work, how good are your relations,

:45:31.:45:35.

how much meaning do you have in life. A pig lying around in muck

:45:35.:45:38.

doesn't have a lot of meaning in life. You believe you can give

:45:39.:45:44.

people mean anything life? Yes, it turns out that unlike the smiley

:45:44.:45:50.

face, which is highly inherited, your parents pass it on to you,

:45:50.:45:54.

mean anything life is everyone's birthright, and it is learnable, it

:45:54.:45:58.

is teachable by teachers to children, it is teachable in the

:45:58.:46:04.

United States army. Thank you. Some of tomorrow morning's front

:46:04.:46:14.
:46:14.:46:31.

There was a 5% drop in the value of shares in News Corporation in New

:46:31.:46:36.

York today. According to the Mail, even war widows are on the hackers

:46:36.:46:39.

hitlist. That's all from Newsnight tonight. Kirsty will be your

:46:40.:46:49.
:46:50.:46:51.

therapist tomorrow night, until then, goodnight.

:46:51.:46:56.

No sign of the weather settling down just yet. A showery prospect

:46:56.:47:01.

for several days to come. A wet start where you live tomorrow

:47:01.:47:07.

morning. But it will break up into showers. There will be hail and

:47:07.:47:11.

thunder mixed in. Very few places will avoid them entirely. A cool

:47:11.:47:14.

day, particularly when the showers come along in a gusty wind.

:47:14.:47:18.

Temperatures held back into the mid-to high teens at best in most

:47:18.:47:22.

places. Across the south west of England, maybe around some of the

:47:22.:47:26.

coasts lengthy spells of sunshine. Even here I wouldn't rely on it.

:47:26.:47:34.

Frequent and heavy showers blowing in on the Brit south-westerly wind.

:47:34.:47:38.

If you catch a shower it could last quite a while. There will be some

:47:38.:47:40.

heavy storms across Northern Ireland, I think, with hail and

:47:40.:47:44.

thunder for sure. At least we have lost the persistent heavy rain

:47:44.:47:49.

across eastern parts of Scotland we had today. Lively downpours to come.

:47:49.:47:53.

This is the situation on Thursday, and Friday, with more of the same.

:47:54.:47:56.

Limited brightness, again disappointing temperatures, across

:47:56.:48:00.

the more southern parts of the UK, every chance that we will see

:48:00.:48:04.

prolonged rain and gusty winds. The big picture on Friday looks like

:48:04.:48:10.

Presented by Jeremy Paxman.

Are the News of the World phone hacking allegations the equivalent for journalists to the MPs expenses scandal and a watershed moment for the profession in this country?


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