07/07/2011 Newsnight


With the latest on the News of the World hacking allegations and an interview with Labour leader Ed Miliband on what more he thinks the government should be doing in response.

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News International kills off the News of the World, but their chief


executive is alive and kicking with Murdoch's backing. I am satisfied


that Rebekah's leadership of the business and her standard of ethics


and conduct, throughout her career, are very good. I have been speaking


to the Labour leader. What I'm interested in is not closing down


newspapers, I'm interested in those who were responsible being brought


to justice, and those who had responsibility for the running of


that newspaper taking their responsibility. And still they


can't bury the story of hacking and bribery. We hear from a victim of


the 7/7 family about their phone being hacked. We have suffered so


much, why do we have to suffer more. Does Murdoch's empire go below the


water line and is it sinking fast. I'm joined by politician, newspaper


editor, the News of the World's political editor, Rupert Murdoch's


biographer, and Bob Woodward. Up, up and away, tomorrow at the


Kennedy space centre, the very last shuttle is blasting off, we look to


frontiers new. Good evening, the world's biggest-


selling English language Sunday paper has been sacrificed by the


Murdoch empire, in day of high drama, which left 200 employees


bereft of a job. The reason is far from clear, was it simply that the


title is toxic. Was it to save the chief executive, Rebekah Brooks'


skin, or to smooth the passage of the takeover of BSkyB, or to pave


the way for a new Sunday paper, or is Rupert Murdoch at sea for the


first time in his life. Questions remain for David Cameron over the


BSkyB deal, and the relationship between the former direct or of


communications and ex-editor of the News of the World, Andy Coulson,


who, we understand will be arrested tomorrow. First this report.


This is a storm that has engulfed politicians, papers and the police.


After an extraordinary day, it is not clear how far the damage will


go, and ultimately who is going to pay? For David Cameron this is


already the most difficult crisis of his Premiershipship, events are


moving fast and - Premiership, events are moving fast and he can


do little more than wait and see what happens. He used to see his


director of communications as a lucky charm. I thank Andy Coulson


for putting on this march past. Even when Andy Coulson was forced


to resign in January this year, David Cameron refused to cut the


man loose. Andy Coulson resigned from the News of the World when he


found out what happened. I feel he's punished twice for the same


offence. I choose to judge him by the work he has done for me, for


the Government and for the country. As I say, he has run the Downing


Street press office in a professional, competent and good


way. If you compare that with the days of the dodgy dossiers and


Alistair Campbell and Damien McBride, and all that nonsense, we


had from the previous Government, he has done an excellent, excellent


job. This scandal could be every bit as damaging as any of those. Mr


Cameron can't change the past. He did hire Andy Coulson and he is


personal friends with Mr Coulson's predecessor, as editor of the News


of the World, the current chief executive of News International,


Rebekah Brooks. The mood among Conservatives is anger and fear.


Plenty begged David Cameron not to have anything to do with Andy


Coulson. One senior backbencher told Newsnight, this could easily


cost them the next election. It is a bit like John Major and ERM, Tony


Blair and Ecclestone, and even Tony Blair and David Kelly, this is the


moment when that young hopeful leader turns into somebody who's


tarnished. How does he get out of it. I do believe David Cameron does


have moral values, he has to return to those moral values. He has to


apologise for hiring Coulson, to bring such man into Downing Street,


we have to have an apology and an explanation on why he did it. We


have to know about the relationship with Rebekah Brooks, how often they


see each other and what they talk about, and the relationship with


Murdoch, which is kept quiet about for so long. News International


have apparently revealed e-mail that is show that during his time


at News of the World, Andy Coulson authorised huge payments to corrupt


police officers. That would seem to constitute a criminal offence. The


e-mails contradict evidence Mr Coulson gave last December, when he


was a witness in the trial of the Scottish politician, Tommy Sheridan.


Tommy Sheridan, conducting his own Four words that some believe now


require extensive explanation. Today Tommy Sheridan's lawyer and


the spokesman called on the police to investigate. When it was


announced that Andy Coulson had authorised payments to police


officers for information, and in Scotland in December he told a jury


that he had no knowledge of payments to police officers, one of


those, either Andy Coulson or News International, are misleading us.


If it was Andy Coulson, he has to answer a perjury charge, that is


very serious. News International today took the kind of decisive


action simply not available to David Cameron, faced with a scandal


that threatens to infect the whole organisation, Rupert Murdoch has


taken a knife to his own corporate flesh.


An extraordinary moment in British journalism, the News of the World


is to close, victim of its own phone hacking scandal. In closing


the News of the World, he's ending a 168 year title. One of my


colleague is in tears, I have a chap who has just got married and


bought a new house a few weeks ago. There is 200 people up there, I


have to say all the people up there throughout this have held their


heads up high, none of us did any of this, it is all done by people


who have left the organisation. Rebekah Brooks, the editor of the


News of the World, at the time when Milly Dowler's phone was allegedly


hacked, is now chief executive of News International, she hasn't lost


her job, yet, at least. Today, James Murdoch stood resolutely by


her. I'm convinced that Rebekah Brooks' leadership of the company


is the right thing, she's doing the right thing for the company. It is


her leadership that has really gotten to grips with this whole


period in the company's history. And the committees. So no talk of


her going to be clear of that? no, her leadership is crucial right


now. It is actually what has been moving allot of this forward.


Meanwhile, the Metropolitan Police have been forced to revisit the


investigation that they apparently got so badly wrong last time. Was


it just incompetence or complacency or something far more sinister.


Today is the anniversary of 7/7, the families of those who died in


those attacks were also, apparently, targeted by the investigator


working for the News of the World. This, during the tenure of Andy


Coulson at the paper. Sean Cassidy lost his son at the bomb in Russell


Square. It should be an independent inquiry, both the Labour Party and


the Tories should distance themselves from News International.


And an apology for hiring Andy Coulson? Yes, and especially an


apology to people like me, I'm an ordinary citizen going about my


every day work, who unfortunately got caught up in the July 7th


bombings, I don't deserve this or any other family. Do you feel the


Prime Minister is in this, because of his proximity to Andy Coulson,


that he's part of your pain? Yes I think he is, he should know what is


going on. If he hired someone that was already working for News


International. Andy Coulson hid way from the cameras whilst working for


David Cameron. He cannot hide now though from the scandal that is


growing fast, and nor can his former boss.


Joining me now is the editor of the paper who broke the story, Alan


Rusbridger of the Guardian. Is it good news that the News of the


World is closed. No, I think it is baffling, no-one


has called for the News of the World to be closed, as your clip


said, the present staff are not associated with this. In fact James


Murdoch's statement pays tribute to them and says what great journalism


they are doing, it seems perverse to close down the newspaper. If it


was done to save Rebekah Brooks' skin, will it have that effect?


surprising thing about the memo, and first of all, it is welcome


that James Murdoch has finally come out and confessed to everything we


said happened back in July 2009. That is good, but it has this great


gap at the heart of it, which is to just blame everything on one word


"wrong doers", who are they? Either that includes Rebekah Brooks, or


she didn't know what was going on, in which ways she's not very


competent. Is it conceivable, as an editor, that something like as


shocking an event as Milly Dowler's phone allegedly being hacked could


go on without the knowledge of the editor? We now know this was


systematic, this was what went on, it was what they did for every


story. I spoke to a News of the World reporter yesterday who said


every story present today the editor they asked for the messages.


So the editor, Andy Coulson or Rebekah Brooks? This was Coulson.


And most editors find it incredible that you could be editor, and


Rebekah Wade was editor of two papers, and week after week people


coming up with sensational stories and you never ask where they came


from. What do you make of the timing of today, is there something


big coming? They have now a tough investigative team. It may be they


know there is more stuff coming down the slipway. It could be a


commercial decision. It may be they realised the brand was totally


toxic. It seems amazing you keep the chief executive in place and


get rid of the staff and paper. Moving on to something very


important. Tomorrow we understand that Andy Coulson will be arrested.


Now, as an editor, or as a human being, you spoke to a senior


executive of David Cameron's before the election, and said what? There


was this odd situation that we knew that there was this murder trial


coming, which involved one of the investigators that Coulson had used,


who had been in jail for seven years. It seemed reasonable to try


to warn Cameron that he shouldn't, before he took Coulson into Number


Ten Downing Street, he should have some inquiries about this. I'm not


the only figure in Fleet Street who got this warning through to Cameron,


saying beware. Surely David Cameron knew about the warnings? Oh yes.


You also spoke to Nick Clegg before the election what did you say to


him? The same thing, that there is a big murder trial coming,


involving one of the people that Coulson involved. We can't report


at the time, because it is unreportable. But you should just


know about this. Having said this to both Cameron's people and to


Clegg, what message did you get back from both camps? Nick Clegg


didn't think at that time that he would be in Downing Street and


nothing came back from Cameron. I wonder what sort of vetting went on.


A lot of the stuff had been published in the Guardian in 2002.


It was the BBC's crime correspondent who wrote a lot about


this. Cameron was either very naive to accept Coulson's word, or he


just didn't go through the proper vetting processes. We will be


hearing from you again in a little while. Thank you for now. Earlier I


spoke about all this to the Labour leader, Ed Miliband.


Had a matter of moments ago we heard James Murdoch has made a


statement to say after this Sunday the News of the World will be


closing its doors forever. What is your reaction to that? I think it


is a big decision but I don't think it so was the problem. Because


afterall, lots of people are losing their jobs today. But one of the


people who is remain anything her job is the chief executive of News


International, who was the editor at the time that the hacking of


Milly Dowler's phone happened. So it is a big act, but I don't think


it so was the real issues at News International. Is it the right


decision? It is a decision for them, but I don't think it so was a


problem. Is it Mia cull pa? sure - Mea culpa? I'm sure for


those up and down the country they are appalled, the public is


appalled, the hacking of Milly Dowler, over the last few days what


we have seen exposed, it shows the trouble that News International is


in. I'm not interested in closing down newspaper, I'm interested in


those who were responsible for being brought to justice, and those


who had the responsibility for the running of that newspaper, taking


responsibility. I don't think that has happened today. Is it right to


say if Rebekah Brooks stays in her job as far as you are concerned


that is a blight on News International for good? She should


go and take responsibility. Let me explain why I say this. I say this


because anyone who runs an organisation and who imagines


themselves being in a position of the things that happened on her


watch happening would think, even if I didn't know about them,


somebody has to take responsibility for what happened. Frankly, the


idea that she is leading the investigation at News International,


overseeing the investigation, with the police, I think that beggers


belief for members of the public up and down the country. That is why I


have spoken out as I have on it. What do you say to the allegation


that she has been kept in place as a human shield for James Murdoch?


I'm not getting into that, I'm interested in the right thing being


done by way of the public, that is the most important thing in this


whole process. We have a responsibility as political leders


to speak out on these issues as to what we think the right thing to do


is. Weren't you slow off the mark. On Monday night's Newsnight, Tom


Watson said you are as guilty as Clegg and Cameron, of, not only


letting the Dowler family down, but simply not pushing hard enough on


this whole issue, you were run to go catch up? I don't accept what


Tom Watson said. But I do accept this, that we all have lessons to


learn about the need to speak out on these issues. And you know the


history of the Labour Party and News International is that up and


down history, but I think we have all learned a lesson this week.


Should you have spoken out earlier? We all learn a lesson, as I say b


the need to speak out on the issues. What I have done this week is to


leave the debate, as political leaders should. Isn't the very


thing you were saying, that Labour has a problem with News


International, look at 1995, Tony Blair, Alistair Campbell and others


couldn't get to Australia fast enough to see Rupert Murdoch and


have his blessing, presumably you thought that was great? I can't


remember what I thought at the time, but I learned lessons from that


episode. I learned lessons, not because who you have dinner with


and who you meet, because it is always the case in our political


culture, that politicians want good relationships with the press, they


are important. But you have to make sure you can speak out without fear


and favour on the issues as you see them, the whole political class was


too slow off the mark on this, I won't deny. That the question is


now who is willing to show the leadership and speak out on the


inquiry we need and what is happening in News International,


and all the other issue, like BSkyB. Just two weeks ago you were at a


News International, at the Orangery in Kensington, did you speak to


Rupert Murdoch? I did speak to him, briefly. Did you raise the issue of


phone hacking with him when you met him? I didn't discuss him with that.


You said you wanted to take a lead, two weeking ago you had Rupert


Murdoch in your sights and you didn't raise it? This isn't a


discussion about who we talk to and who we have relationships. But you


are the leader of the Labour Party? This is about our willingness to


speak out on the issues. There are lessons to learn. Labour has its


own problems with relationship, your head of strategy used to work


for News International and the Times, and in January, he sent out


an e-mail to Labour backbenchers saying do not just, it is a were,


pick on News International as the only paper that might be involved


in the hacking business, it could be other titles as well. And don't


raise hack anything the same breath as BSkyB. You can't be comfortable


with him doing that. The position we have taken is this, to speak out


on the hacking issues. But also to say that the Competition Commission


is the right body to make rulings on BSkyB. That is right. Jeremy


Hunt and the Government have chosen a different course. They have


chosen to go down the road of specific arrangements with News


International. They have to act on assurances from News International.


The reason why the process is becoming unstuck on BSkyB, I think


it is becoming unstuck. They are trying to get assurances from News


International. But I have to say, News International assurances are


not worth very much, given what we have seen in the past few months.


That is why I say, even at this stage, the right thing for the


Government to do would be to go to the Competition Commission. The


right process to deal with this. Let's deal with Andy Coulson for a


moment. It is now alleged that he either agreement to payments or


sanctioned other people to make payments to police officers. What


should happen to Andy Coulson? That's a matter for the police. But


what I do say is the Prime Minister has serious questions to answer


about the judgments he has made in relation to Andy Coulson, the


hiring of him originally, the bringing of him into the Downing


Street reason, also he will have to answer questions in the coming days


about what he knew and what discussions he had with Andy


Coulson, about what he actually did when he was editor and knew about,


when he was editor of the News of the World. Let's deal with James


Murdoch, because of a select committee, we know he authorised


the payment of Gordon Taylor for �750,000, is his position tenable?


I don't want to assess the police investigation. The right thing to


do is say the police investigation has to take its course. People are


saying perhaps your removal from the whole orbit of News


International and your criticism of News International is a reversal of


clause IV moment, saying we don't need News International any more,


they are bad news for Labour, is that the ways? I'm learning lessons


over what the right thing to do and the past, this is not about me, it


is about the public, up and down this country, who have been appal


bid what they have heard. The hacking of the phone of an abducted


girl. The hacking of the families of 7/7 victims. Today we learn the


hacking of phones of families of servicemen who died in this country.


That should make us look and think what kind of culture do we have in


this country. Thank you very much.


Joining me now is the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party,


Michael Fallon, and the Liberal Democrat MP, Lord Oakeshott.


Your leader and the Chancellor made a serious error of judgment hiring


Andy Coulson? Andy Coulson resigned from the News of the World, when


one of his reporters was convicted. He resigned again from Downing


Street. I didn't hear anybody resigning this week. The Prime


Minister made it absolutely clear to parliament yesterday that he


makes full responsibility for his employment. But, yes, but surely it


was a catastrophic error of judgment, you have just heard Alan


Rusbridger say very clearly and candidly, he spoke to somebody very


close to David Cameron, who told David Cameron that actually there


were going to be problems with Andy Coulson, and then he was warning


him off. David Cameron chose to ignore that advice entirely, and it


didn't just come from here, that is failure of judgment, or an


arrogance. You want to be very careful about the allegations.


David Cameron sought assurances from Andy Coulson before he was


appointed. He received those assurances, he employed it, in the


end Andy Coulson resigned. You are suggesting Andy Coulson lied to the


Prime Minister? I think Andy Coulson's conduct is not matter for


you, or for I n the end it is a matter for the investigation going


on at the moment, we shouldn't pre- judge it. The one thing we can say


with clarity is, when Andy Coulson was director of communications for


Her Majesty's Government, he said, in court, they had no knowledge of


payments to police officers. Now, it is possible, allegedly, he


allegedly perjuryed himself, if he is arrested tomorrow, this is a


dark day for David Cameron? These are dark days for for the inquiry


and the courts. These are matters for the courts, these are


investigations and not for you and I. Any police officer who takes


money is corrupt? These are matters for the investigation. We can't


decide on Newsnight that somebody is guilty or not. That is the whole


point of the police investigation and the inquiry that will follow.


If Andy Coulson is charged with perjury, as Deputy Chairman of the


Conservative Party, how uncomfortable will you be about


that? If he's charged with perjury it is matter for the court, he is


entitled to a trial. We can't prejudge that. If somebody is


charged we need to be careful about that. Let's talk Lord Oakeshott


about the position, vis a vis the BSkyB takeover. In your view,


should that takeover now be delayed? Certainly t should be, as


it should have been months ago. Referred to the competition


commission, as it would have been had Vince Cable still had the


decision. I will come on to Vince Cable in a molt, I want to ask you


on the Andy Coulson apair. Nick Clegg was warned specifically by


Rusbridger. Do you think it strange that Nick Clegg didn't warn David


Cameron when Alan Rusbridger said Andy Coulson in Downing Street


wouldn't be a good idea. It wasn't Nick Clegg's decision and it was


before the election. In the Liberal Democrats we sup from a very long


spoon with the News of the World and the News Corporation and


whoever works from them, unlike Labour who were close to the entire


machine and the Conservatives. We have nothing but contempt from them,


we treat them with great care. Let's talk about BSkyB, do you


think the takeover of BSkyB should go ahead and there should be no


delay? There is still a process running. Submissions close tomorrow.


The Culture Secretary has to weigh all that up. He takes further


advice from the competition authorities about that. So there is


some time still to go. The decision as to whether somebody is fit and


proper, which you are getting at. The decision about whether someone


is fit and proper to run a broadcasting organisation,


parliament decided years ago should not be a matter for politicians and


ministers, it should mash for an independent regulator which is


Ofcom. That is a continuing duty, they can decide at any point, not


just the point of the proposed merger, they can decide at any


point that they are not a fit and proper organisation. Should that


happen now? That is for Ofcom to decide, not politicians to decide.


One thing that will be decided by politicians perhaps there will be a


vote, called for by Labour next week in the House of Commons, to


delay further the decision. How will the Liberal Democrats vote on


that? I don't know how Liberal Democrats in the Commons will vote,


I know how I would vote. T as Michael said, Ofcom can, and has


only said today that they have an on going responsibility for whether


someone's a fit and proper person. And the key point here, is that why


would anyone accept an assurance from News International, I wouldn't


buy an assurance from them. The News of the World was great


prize for Rupert Murdoch when he beat off his rival, the late Robert


Maxwell, to buy the title in 1969. It is said that Murdoch loves


nothing more than a tabloid paper and he got the red top, top. Now it


is tiny, and apparently toxic, as part of his empire, and a threat to


his much bigger ambition to own the whole of BSkyB. In flash he closed


it. We have this on the giant that is News Corp.


Rupert Murdoch bought the News of the World, back at the tailend of


the 60s, to be the foundation of what has become a global business


empire. Back then he was a in a corner fighting. Mr Maxwell called


me a moth-eaten kangaroo. I never got quite to that stage!


closure of the News of the World is a sign of Murdoch's ruthless


expediency, once again he's feeting, even forethat business empire's


very survival. Film and TV in the UK, the US and around the world,


have long ago taken over as Murdoch's cash cows in chief. But


the scandal surrounding the world's best-selling English language


newspaper, have threatened them all. O2, DFS, Sainsbury's, Ford,


companies have been falling over themselves to pull advertising from


the tabloid. Murdoch feared a boycott by readers was next and


they understand where that leads. News co-operation executives know


better than anyone the cost of a public boycott. On Merseyside for


22 years, sales of the Sun have remained on the floor, because of


public anger over the coverage of the Hillsborough disaster. It is


thought 75% of readers were lost and those readers have never come


back. Claire Anders has been following the Murdoch empire for 20


years. She wasn't entirely surprised by today's shock news,


the death of News of the World? brand has been destroyed and they


have called it day. They will rename it and relaunch it as


something else. Does this end the scandal? Not at all.


James Murdoch, Rupert's son, is the man who has been running damage


limitation at News International, the UK arm of News Corporation. He


authorised pay-offs of up to a million pounds from celebrities who


threatened to sue after being bugged. Now he's saying sorry.


There was a particular settlement I authorised, and I have said was


made with information that was incomplete, I acted on the advice


of executives and lawyers. Withen complete investigation. That is a


matter of real regret for me personally. It is only weeks since


James Murdoch was spirited from London to head News Corporation in


New York. He said, memorably, he put the News of the World scandal


in a box, problem over. It was not envisaged that James Murdoch would


be moving to New York as its appointed successor, until it was


announced. In fact, previously analysts had been told that he


would be the chief executive of the European pay TV option. That


upgrade came suddenly and wasn't really flagged. Brooks Brookes


Brooks was left to sublg seed James Murdoch in the UK. Cynics felt she


had been left to carry the can. James Murdoch said that's not so.


I'm convinced that Rebekah Brooks's leadership of the company is the


right thing. She's doing the right thing for the company.


inescapably point is Rebekah Brooks is vulnerable n, in the corporate


standing she's the last one standing before James himself.


Two News Corporation agencies have broken the news. In the US, where


Murdoch makes ten times more than in the UK, the share price dropped


10%. This really sooms like something different. A different


level of awfulness. Murdoch has had really thick skin here and kind of


has that teflon aura where criticism bounces off him. This


seems like it has the potential to be more serious. It seems different.


One of News Corporation's directors has been dispatched to London to


liaise. Last time we met, he was working for the Bush administration,


as the architect of the patient yacht act, and there was a row over


phone happen - patriarch act, and there was a row over phone hacking.


For James Murdoch these are times of crisis, the father will be


hoping this will make the boy as his business heir. James must be


sweating. He must be feeling very dejected that instead of putting in


had a box with a lid on, whatever has gone into the box the lid has


gone. And we have a very, very big explosion going on. Which could


come back on him? Of new allegations, absolutely, questions


about what he knew, why he wasn't asking himself more questions, or


asking questions of other people. All of this will come up. Joining


me is Anna Adams who has spent this evening in various disreputable


drinking holes, what happened today? Everyone was called into a


short meeting this afternoon. Only five minutes. They had absolutely


no idea, they told me, what was happening, not even an inkling.


They were called in, Rebekah Brooks held a meeting, they said she was


very nervous, her voice was cracking. Every thought they were


preparing for a boycott and they were told to watch out it would be


a bad week. Then she started saying the paper had been running for so


many years, then they said they knew what was coming. There is a


sense they are carrying the can for past regime, a lot of young staff


had nothing to do with this. They hadn't even heard of Glenn Mulcaire,


why are they losing their jobs. I spoke to a News of the World


columnist, she has been on Fleet Street for 30 years, she says it's


one of the most professional papers there. None of us saw this coming,


we believed a title around for 168 years would get through this.


Everyone in that room today had nothing to do with what went on in


the past. I don't know how much more the News of the World could


have changed in the past five years than it has already. It is an


entirely different paper to what it was in the last regime. I have been


here for three-and-a-half years I'm proud to work for this organisation


and the paper. What about the mood of some others? I was in a pub in


Wapping and it was a bit like a wake a lot of alcohol, reminiscing


and hugging. Defiant, saying they will get jobs elsewhere, inwardly


they are furious that Rebekah Brooks could keep her job. They are


all going to lose their's, when they weren't there and she was.


Inwardly there is a lot of anger about that. There is a 90-day


consultation period, nobody would say that on camera. They gathered


from the Mail and Mirror, they came down to show their support. The


feeling was this will hasten the demise of newspapers in general.


This is the television Tom Latchham. Frustrated, angry, surprised, shock,


how would you feel if you were told don't show up next week your job


has finished. All those things. Exactly there were tears, I went


into the office as soon as I found out there were tears, sadness, hugs.


People standing around not knowing what to do. And there were all


those feelings. I think now we are coming to terms with it. I think we


are thinking tomorrow is another day. Joining me now is the


political editor of the News of the World, David Wooding, the former


Express and Independent editor, Rosie Boycott, and Rupert Murdoch's


biographer, William Shawcross. We heard what Anna Adams had to say,


you were there. Was there a feeling that the News of the World was


being hung out to dry, and you were a toxic brand and had you to go?


came as a bolt from the blue. It has been a week in which revelation


after revelation has come out. There was a stage when we were


saying can it get any worse than this. It continued to get worse


every day. Nobody expected this. Did this think it was a good move,


had the paper lost its reputation? Yes, we had been sullied by what


happened five or ten years ago by a previous staff. We are carrying the


can, as you say. The people who work there there is only three in


executive roles who work there at the time. People were saying


privately, not publicly, why should they lose their jobs and Rebekah


Brooks Kiev her's? Rebekah is not editing News of the World, she's


the chief executive of the group, she has gone into deep carpet land.


But the editor of the News of the World, as he is now, Colin Myler,


took over five or six years ago and is as clean as they come. Rosie


Boycott, you have edited two newspapers, what do you make of


what happened today, for the ranks and the people in the deep carpets?


I think it is terrible to blame the News of the World for what has


happened. Who is to blame is the people who work there. Who set the


culture? And how high that goes is still to be seen. The culture comes


from the top. The need to get stories, the decision to break


rules, the decision to phone hack, to go that extra 200 miles into


illegality. And any editors, news editors, overall editors, editors


in chief didn't know what was going on, is just inconceivable. It is


inconceivable that someone would be paying someone the kind of sum that


is Glenn Mulcaire was earning, �50,000, and not know everything he


was doing. Do you think the paper was that bit out of control? As I


said earlier, it was on an industrial scale, I believe the


editors knew, if they didn't, then it was out of control. You


completely agree that is it is inconceivable, that more than


�100,000, going to a private detective, without anyone knowing


about it? You were Rupert Murdoch's


biographer and know him well including motivations. Is it


realistic that he did not have a grip, I know he was upper echelon,


he zfrpbt have a grip on what was going - he didn't have a grip on


what was happening at the papers, he must have kept an eye on all


this time. Was there not an inkling he let things go too far. Avenues


control frequent wasn't he? I don't think he is, he lets editors have a


free hand if he trusts them. He accepts responsibility for this


appalling thing that has happened. And Alan Rusbridger and the


Guardian have done well to, pose it over a long period of him. Never


the less, Murdoch was living most of the time in America during this


period. He has moved to Los Angeles and New York. It wasn't in day-to-


day control. His son was? More recently, yes. I want to ask


William what is your view about why Rebekah Brooks is still being


backed, when it is clear that not just public opinion, and legal


opinion, possibly, will come to see what kind of responsibility she


bother for this, she was the editor when Milly Dowler's phone was


hacked? I believe you are right, I understand that, that would be the


public view now, I don't know what her role was. I want to know what


you think Murdoch is doing in carrying on supporting her in this


job and having his son say on camera she's doing a good job?


presumably believes she's innocent of the allegations and charges.


this doesn't shut it down, what damage ultimately does it do to the


wider Murdoch empire? I don't know, it is too early to say. You said it


was held below the water line. I hope that is not the case. Despite


what's happening in this horrendous scandal, Murdoch is one of the best


things that happened to British journalist, without his battle with


the print unions back then, he made papers profitable. Without him


there would be no BSkyB, and no competition for you at the BBC.


think that is fair point. He's bold, imaginative and he loves newspaper,


which makes it surprising he has taken that decision today. I think


the thing we need to talk about is what happened in the last two years.


We published this story two years ago to the day. This company has


been wriggling, it denied it, it went to parliament, police, it has


misled everybody, they are still paying Glenn Mulcaire, the one


person who has known the truth. They have been highly resistant to


the lawsuits. This idea that they were kes operate to get the story


out is not true. I'm struck by what you said that


Rupert Murdoch murd was a good thing because he's a - Murdoch mur


was a good thing because he understands newspapers. If he's a


good thing, what is wrong with him owning BSkyB. I don't subscribe to


the school that he's the devil incarnate, in terms of newspapers


he has kept the Times afloat. has lost �87 million two years ago


and �47 million last year. No other proprietor could do that.


We have heard there will be a Phoenix on Sunday. This is now a


problem for tabloid papers across the board. This is the start of the


obvious demise? There is no hiding the fact that tabloid papers are


suffering at the moment. We were called in by Rebekah Brooks a few


weeks ago and said we have to diversify into the website. It is a


difficult time for tabloid papers. What they have done with News of


the World, if we lost half the circulation, we would still sell


more than virtually every other Sunday newspaper. Is it the end of


the tabloids? No, you can see by the success of the Mail on-line. It


is also about gossip. The cynical interpretation of this is Murdoch


will see News of the World will lose money and advertiser, you shut


it down, you rehire the ones you want at lower rates, and start up


the Sun on Sunday. There is a suggestion that this is a grand


plan? I don't think it is a grand plan, but it has a financial plan


to it, cooked newspaper the last 48 hours. It doesn't mean if you buy


the Sun you buy the News of the World, different readerships.


not just that these papers, it is all newspapers, that is why Murdoch


has tried pay walls over the Sunday Times and the Wall Street Journal.


This is a paper he has rescued in America. The culture of tabloid


journalism, now, this will be a real problem, people see the victim,


I understand there will be more information to come, more hacking


to come, whether victims or politicians, I don't know. The more


this keeps going and the more that victims are hacked, everyone is


tainted with the same problem? culture we will lose is the culture


of campaigning journalism by the News of the Worldment we won the


military covenant enshrined in law with our campaign. We raised �1.5


million for the McCann's in 48 hours. All these things are


overshadowed by the appalling behaviour of these people, who the


not only sullied the brand but put us all out of work today. It makes


it a confusing day, doesn't it? is an astonishing day. It will be


sad if we lose the ability of tabloids to exist, they raise a lot


of money. It doesn't needing to. don't think we would have been in


this position is Rebekah Brooks and jaisms Murdoch took action in July


2009. James Murdoch inherit his father's empire? I don't know if he


wants to, it is a long way on. few moments I will be speaking to


the legendary Watergate journalist, Bob Woodward.


Another bigger ra ends tomorrow, although one with a more noble


mission. The space shuttle Atlantis will take off into the Florida sky,


the last space shuttle launch ever. We have been across to America to


talk to the teams that want to take over, now NASA is stepping aside,


including one today that signed a deal in using Kennedy space


facilities. Opening up for everyone, not just astronautings. What could


be the next chapter in space - astronauts. What could be the next


chapter in space? By tomorrow morning, this beach


will be packed, it is a has been for every significant launch,


because this is Coco Beach in Florida, the closest to Kennedy


Space Center, and the launch pad of the space shuttle. This beach has


seen everything, from the first American in space, and Lance


Armstrong on the moon. And, of course, every shuttle launch.


The shuttle is magnificent, of course, but it is really a delivery


van, it is a way of getting stuff up to the space station. When


people were inspired by space, they think of Apollo and the moon


landings, that is what inspired the space fans, the enthusiasts, the


billionares, people like me into science. The shuttle never really


did. Your average shuttle launch was never very memorable, and


neither was the shuttle particularly good at the frequent


cheap space hops it promised. But its friends say it was still a


pioneer. The shuttle is huge, it is like a big aeroplane, and the fact


that it did not turn out to be as inexpensive as people hoped, and we


couldn't fly it as frequent. It was the first generation, nobody knew


how to build a reusable space shift. So is it time for radical change in


gear, opening up space to more than just elite astronauts. In the 1960,


that is what I promised, space travel for everybody, you and me.


Here in the rockies, they think they might have a way to do that.


In the basement at Colorado University, there is a team using


NASA money and an old NASA spacecraft to try to fly people


into space. It is headed by a veteran of five shuttle missions.


You must be Jim? Welcome. That is the ship we are in, not that one,


it is a scale model. This one, a mock-up, tucked into the corner.


left NASA in 2003 and went to teach into university. I came back to


work on the new commercial space industry to attempt to take this


vehicle off the shelf, from what NASA had done to use modern


technology and materials to make it into a new spacecraft to take


humans to the International Space Station and back. In zero gravity


it is very nice, we would float gently towards the end of the


tunnel, there would be plenty of room. In terms of experimentry with


this craft, what is this about up here? This is a model of the dream


chaser. They dropped the one fifth scale model from 40,000 feet, this


flew autonomously and then parachuted back to earth. They are


also building a full size version for structure tests. They are


working out how best to play controls, which is proudly homemade.


Pull back gently, softly we will come back up. This is how you start


programmes like this. The students started off with cardboard, they


cut out boxs to make their first cockpit and made the panels.


Because it is very cheap, they spent $20 on the first panel


displays. They get the idea on that. Then they built the more rigid


structure with panels and switches they can replace. You can swap them


out with others and they can test different types of switches. People


will look at this and think not NASA? It is, NASA does the same


thing, they spend a lot more money doing the same thing that we have


done. This cost us $30,000. The quality and evacillations was as


good as I have seen at NASA. The dream chaser project has $20


million of NASA money. Just today it signed a deal to take off and


land at the Kennedy Space Center. It dependss on buying a NASA rocket


for launch. Out here in the California desert like Anne proch


that evokes the 1950s. It is doing away with all the bureaucracy and


the slow timetable, it is back to workshops, that kind of, we can do


it, quickly and cheaply, mentality. A strange mix of businesses here.


The people here want a step by step approach, than NASA's grand


projects. Why is this place unique? It is a few miles from the airport


where test pilots flew into the unknown, breaking the sound barrier


and on to the edge of space. Before NASA existed. The big boys are here,


over there is Virgin's space ship two. Over here we have a company


that wants to take people to space for about half the price, in that


ship. If you want to hop on the cockpit I will give you a tour.


That was another model, inside this one is a rocket plane they have


already flown in. You fit pretty good, you could be a


rocket pilot. Have you guys had chance to ride in this one?


rocket raceer we all had a ride. What did it feel like? Amazing,


when you tow out to the runway, you are in a quiet place. 3-2-1 you hit


the switch, and your head is pinned to the street.


What is the link between what you are doing and the old X planes?


They thought simply to how we did, do incremental testing, don't make


something giant, start small, we did that and proved we could build


something safe enough to put someone in it.


Their first two planes were not designed to go into space, but


their third craft, the Lynx, still under construction, will be. Only


for sub orbital flights, an easy option. In other part of the


country there is a team working on a different approach. Moving away


from planes, using capsules on top of rockets. What are you doing?


This is a test lift of a single common propulsion modual. We call


it that because this is the central building component for all our


rockets. Five of these CPSs would be bundled together into the


Neptune 30, it is called that because it lifts 30 kilograms to


lower earth's orbit. This is crunch year for Randa and her husband, rod,


they have been here for 16 years and plan this first orbital launch,


which they say is sold out. Cheap satellites come first, but by 2014


they want to send people up too. This is the six-person capsule. We


will take a pilot and five crew members to do the earth orbit.


is very ambitious, we are standing in front of the wooden mock-up. How


will you convince people you will get ready for the stage of being


ready for flight in three or four years? We have on going programmes


that will demonstrate the viability of these rockets. First of all with


our satellite launch vehicles. That will be a great confidence builder.


We are looking to travel ourselves. So we want to make this as safe and


reliable as possible. That is why we have built rocket that is are so


radically simplified in their systems, that they will be safest


types of vehicles around. Do you think you will be one of the first


passengers? Not the first, because we will be conducting the launch.


At the moment these smaller companies are really not ready,


maybe it is time now to give them a few years, see if they can have a


shot of the dream of making space available to more people, people


like you and me. The future pay belong to the


smaller outfits, but to those who play a part in the shuttle years,


there is a lot to be proud of. The mission to prepare the Hubble


Telescope is the most memorable, a the man who walked in space to fix


it agrees. I have done satellite, science experiments, I have fixed


Hubble, I have done spacewalks, I have had a great time. Maybe he's


right, there is a lot to remember about the shuttle years.


# If you should ever leave me # Life would go on believe me


# Life could show nothing to me # What good would living do me


# God only knows what I'd The shuttle may have failed to


bring space flight to the mass, but over $500 million a launch, it


would never do that. But it still had its moments.


Now back to the death of the News of the World. Joining me now from


Washington to give the view across the Atlantic on our newspaper


scandals is Bob Woodward, the legendary reporter who broke


Watergate. Thank you very much for joining us. How does today's drama


look from where you are sitting? is a lightning bolt. And the idea


of closing this newspaper, I have never heard of something like this


in the news business. Because of an investigation, a scandal. Initially


I was concerned that the whole Government was kind of piling on


poor Rupert Murdoch. But for him to close the newspaper, is, in a sense,


a plea deal. In other words, he is saying there is something seriously


rotten here, so rotten we are going to get rid of this organ in the


body. Now I think the impact of that will be to unleash everyone. I


mean I heard two cases today of people saying this is a giant media


scandal. There are books in it, investigative reporters are going


to be out. People who work their there are going to be interviewed.


Probably new revelations and so forth, you will have this very,


very serious opening of the bod. I guess it should officially in


America. Tell me more, seriously b the


empire, what do you think about - about the empire, what effect do


you think it will have on the empire in the states? It will


depend on the facts. Here it will be called Rupertgate, and it has


got all of the elements, all of the power, all of the secrecy, give


Rupert Murdoch his due, brilliant manager of newspapers. He's done an


awful lot, made an awful lot of money. Everyone wants to look at


all of the details here. He is in for a real scrubbing. Here we have


a situation where he closes the newspaper, all the journalists go.


But his chief executive, Rebekah Brooks, editor at the time of one


of the alleged phone hackings, still in their positionment does


that have all the elements of a drama. That he's protecting her as


a human shield for his son James. If you remember in Watergate the


question about Nixon was what did he know and when did he know it.


The question is obvious about Rupert Murdoch b Rebekah, what did


she know and when did she know it. There are official, police and


Government, investigations, which I suspect will try to get to the


bottom of it. Other report remembers, in the United States


here, there is a real rivalry that has escalated between the New York


Times and Murdoch's Wall Street Journal. I noticed today, the New


York Times had a front page story about all the criticism of Murdoch,


and another story in the business section. The former New York Times


editor used to say, "flood the zone", they will have all sorts of


reporters on that. He is an elderly man, and we don't know when the


acsession will be. Will it survive as an empire, or with the demise of


Rupert Murdoch, the whole landscape will change, even for tabloid


journalists and investigative journalisms. We don't know the


future, everything can happen, and it will depend hopefully on the


facts. There shouldn't be a presumption that they don't have


the evidence yet, to show that X, or Y, knew all about it. My


following of it, this is a scandal that has been festering for months,


for years. A wise executive at the top, if I may say, when you have


something like that going on for months l say, let's clean house,


let's get to the bottom of it. He obviously didn't do that.


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

This edition includes the latest on the News of the World hacking allegations and an interview with Labour leader Ed Miliband on what more he thinks the government should be doing in response.

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