28/07/2011 Newsnight


28/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Tonight, just when you think it could not possibly get any worse,

:00:08.:00:11.

further revelation about the detective hired by the News of the

:00:11.:00:16.

World. The phone number of Sara Payne, the mother of the murdered

:00:16.:00:20.

schoolgirl, was found among Glenn Mulcaire's papers, she says she's

:00:20.:00:23.

absolutely devastated to learn her phone may have been hacked. We will

:00:23.:00:26.

discuss that and the impact the scandal could have on James

:00:26.:00:33.

Murdoch's leadership of BSkyB. What's the real cost of America's

:00:33.:00:37.

debt crisis in the footsteps of John Steinbeck's The Grapes of

:00:37.:00:43.

Wrath, Paul Mason takes the trail of misery from Oklahoma to

:00:43.:00:47.

California, to find lost lands and the newly homeless middle-class.

:00:47.:00:52.

What is the hardest thing about it? Just having my kids here. America's

:00:52.:00:57.

top general is back home, David Petraeus talks to us about his

:00:57.:01:03.

hopes for Afghanistan, and shaky relations with Pakistan. Everyone

:01:03.:01:10.

is stepping back from the abyss, after looking into it. And can it

:01:10.:01:13.

really be true that watching this programme can seriously damage your

:01:13.:01:20.

love life, not everyone thinks so. Newsnight is one of the greatest

:01:20.:01:30.
:01:30.:01:32.

aphrodisiacs, political debate, what more could a woman ask for!

:01:32.:01:35.

Good evening, at every stage of the phone hacking scandal, it seemed

:01:35.:01:37.

difficult to believe the revelations could be more shocking,

:01:37.:01:41.

but tonight, again, they may just be. After her daughter was murdered,

:01:41.:01:45.

Sara Payne, worked together with the News of the World to publicise

:01:45.:01:49.

information about paedophiles. Now, it turns out, the number of her

:01:49.:01:52.

mobile phone was discovered among the papers of the disgraced private

:01:52.:01:56.

detective, Glenn Mulcaire. We don't actually know if she was hacked, or

:01:56.:02:00.

by whom, but she says she's devastated at the thought she may

:02:00.:02:05.

have been. Even at the end, the News of the

:02:05.:02:11.

World had a few friends left. Even after the politicians, and the

:02:11.:02:15.

advertisers had deserted the title, Sara Payne was still proud to

:02:15.:02:17.

standby the paper that had fought for her cause.

:02:17.:02:27.

Sara Payne gave this tribute, having been told by the police that

:02:27.:02:31.

she was not among those suspected of having their phones hacked by

:02:31.:02:35.

the News of the World. Now that assurance has been withdrawn.

:02:35.:02:42.

People will be deeply shocked that the newspaper which was campaigning

:02:42.:02:46.

for Sarah's Law, was at the same time invading the privacy of her

:02:46.:02:50.

mother. It is unspeakable that we hear these allegations tonight.

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That lady has been through the trauma of what happened to her

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daughter, has had serious medical conditions, and thought that

:02:57.:03:03.

newspaper was on her side. Even at the depths of the phone hacking

:03:03.:03:05.

scandal, News International executives tried to keep reminding

:03:05.:03:10.

the public not to lose sight of its role in changing the law. As you

:03:10.:03:16.

know, part of the, my main focus of my editorship of the News of the

:03:16.:03:20.

World was in convincing the parliament that there needed to be

:03:20.:03:26.

radical changes to the 1997 Sex Offenders Act, which became known

:03:26.:03:32.

as Sarah's Law, which was very similar to laws imposed in America

:03:32.:03:39.

under Megan's Law. Sarah Payne was murdered in 2000. Her killer, Roy

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Whiting, was a known sex offender, Sarah's mother, Sara Payne

:03:45.:03:50.

campaigned for a change in the law, the News of the World helped.

:03:50.:03:54.

Parents should have, they argued, controlled access to the sex

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offenders' register, to find out if somebody living nearby is danger to

:03:59.:04:02.

their children. Rebekah Brooks called this law change the

:04:02.:04:12.
:04:12.:04:38.

highlight of her tenure as editor The damaging influence that many

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are drawing from these allegations that the News of the World only

:04:41.:04:45.

gave the phone to Sara Payne, in order to hack it. One commentator

:04:46.:04:51.

believes we should discount this as a theory. They would have been able

:04:51.:04:54.

to hack her phone, the phone she already had any way. It is not

:04:54.:04:58.

clear what benefit they get from having a phone that only they know

:04:58.:05:01.

the number of it, if that was the case who else would leave messages,

:05:01.:05:06.

on the face of it, it doesn't really add up that is the most

:05:06.:05:08.

likely explanation. Although, if true, it is a very damaging one

:05:08.:05:13.

indeed. More likely, what this illustrate, it is a new low,

:05:13.:05:18.

certainly, the level, the appearance of disloyalty, double

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dealing, betrayal, even, no doubt Sara Payne feels it very deeply,

:05:22.:05:28.

that is shocking, even by gutter tabloid standards, if you like.

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Others believe tonight's revelations actually lend credence

:05:31.:05:37.

to Rebekah Brooks' claim not to have sanctioned phone hacking. One

:05:37.:05:47.
:05:47.:05:59.

former senior member of the News of All that is so far alleged is that

:05:59.:06:03.

Sara Payne's phone was targeted. It is not clear that the private

:06:03.:06:07.

investigator who allegedly did this was working for the News of the

:06:07.:06:11.

World at the time, nor that, if he did try, he was successful. Tonight,

:06:11.:06:15.

the former News of the World employee, Hayley Barlow, who became

:06:15.:06:25.
:06:25.:06:31.

very close to Sara Payne tweeted Today the far-reaching inquiry,

:06:31.:06:36.

triggered by the phone hacking scandal, had its first meeting. The

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panel will begin hearing evidence in September. The focus of the

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inquiry is the culture, practices ethics of the press, in the context

:06:45.:06:51.

of the latter's relationship with the public, the police, and

:06:51.:06:54.

politicians. All these matters overlap, and my goal must be to

:06:54.:07:00.

consider what lessons, if any, may be learned from past events, and

:07:00.:07:05.

what recommendations, if any, should be made for the future, in

:07:05.:07:10.

particular as regards press regulation, governance, and systems

:07:10.:07:14.

of oversight. It was in this man's notebooks that Sara Payne's details

:07:14.:07:18.

were allegedly found, along with those of around 4,000 other people.

:07:18.:07:22.

This evening the News of the World's private investigator, Glenn

:07:22.:07:26.

Mulcaire, was saying nothing. With fewer than 200 of the possible

:07:26.:07:29.

victims so far contacted by the police, it is a safe assumption

:07:29.:07:34.

that there are more revelations to come.

:07:34.:07:37.

More revelations indeed in just the past few minutes, breaking news,

:07:37.:07:41.

the police officer who led the investigation into the murder of

:07:41.:07:47.

Sarah Payne, has told the BBC, that he contacted officers from

:07:47.:07:50.

Operation Weeting two weeks ago to say he also could have been the

:07:50.:07:55.

victim of phone hacking. It surrounds an occasion where he was

:07:55.:07:59.

contacted by a senior news executive from News of the World,

:07:59.:08:04.

about a story that he believes was gained by listening to his messages.

:08:04.:08:08.

In yet another development today, the BSkyB board have offered their

:08:08.:08:12.

unanimous support to their chairman, James Murdoch, on the eve of the

:08:13.:08:17.

company's results being announced tomorrow, the board will keep a

:08:17.:08:21.

watching brief on external issues. Not all the shareholders are happy.

:08:21.:08:25.

What happened today? You had a meeting this afternoon of

:08:25.:08:30.

the board, it went on for a long time. What is significant is they

:08:30.:08:34.

came out of the statement saying James Murdoch had their unanimous

:08:34.:08:38.

support, more or less when the news about Sara Payne was breaking. They

:08:38.:08:44.

had a few adjustments after. We have been hearing afterwards that

:08:44.:08:46.

non-executive directors were grilling James Murdoch, he was told

:08:46.:08:50.

by one he was on probation. He was always a controversial choice,

:08:50.:08:54.

because it is a listed company, anyone can buy or sell shares in t

:08:54.:08:59.

it is not meant to be run like family business. Back in 2003,

:08:59.:09:04.

James Murdoch was a controversial choice for chief executive, when he

:09:04.:09:09.

became chairman in 2007, it was questioned could he be independent,

:09:09.:09:13.

can you really represent shareholders equally, when your dad

:09:13.:09:16.

controls 39% of the company. Sharehold hearse a gripe, as well,

:09:16.:09:23.

that they weren't quite happy with the price it was suggested to pay.

:09:23.:09:26.

They won't be as unanimous as the board was. I spoke to one

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shareholder from one of the smaller investment groups, he wanted to

:09:32.:09:35.

remain anonymous, but he was adamant James Murdoch should stand

:09:35.:09:45.
:09:45.:09:55.

down. He said: Shareholders wouldn't be doing

:09:55.:09:58.

their job if they weren't thinking about the money. What will happen

:09:58.:10:01.

tomorrow? Tomorrow we will get the results and the profits. This is a

:10:01.:10:06.

highly lucrative business, it made �752 million of profits last year.

:10:06.:10:10.

This year it is expected to go up to �950 million. This business, as

:10:10.:10:14.

one shareholder told me, just throws off cash. The days peerns of

:10:14.:10:18.

the takeover bid has obviously meant - disappearance of the

:10:18.:10:24.

takeover bid means the price has headed south, they are hoping that

:10:24.:10:30.

their patience of Sky, when they invested new money into new

:10:30.:10:33.

technology, that their patience would be rewarded, there is a hope

:10:33.:10:36.

they will get a special dividend to handsome of their money back. I

:10:36.:10:42.

asked one supportive shareholder, James Bevan of CCLA investments, he

:10:42.:10:45.

manages money for churches and charities. I asked him what he

:10:45.:10:48.

really thought about whether the ethical questions were separate

:10:48.:10:54.

from the financial ones? Absolutely not, we think that corporate

:10:54.:10:58.

governance lies at the heart of long-term shareholder value, we are

:10:58.:11:02.

really very concerned that we do have a chairman, who is going to be

:11:02.:11:07.

doing the right thing, both in terms of ethic, but also in terms

:11:07.:11:12.

of the law. That said, it seems to me he has been a first rate steward

:11:12.:11:16.

of shareholder value over the years. We think that BSkyB is in an

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absolutely first rate position. With their thoughts on revelations

:11:19.:11:22.

from the investigation, and the news about the impact on BSkyB, I'm

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joined by the former chairman of the BBC, Christopher Bland, the

:11:30.:11:35.

Times editor, formerly, David Evans, and Tom Watson on the committee for

:11:35.:11:40.

investigating the crisis. This story about Sara Payne seems to be

:11:40.:11:44.

shocking, we don't know if she had her phone hacked or the details?

:11:44.:11:47.

is a new low, but yet another scandalous revelation, I do very

:11:47.:11:51.

much, my party goes out to Sara Payne tonight, she must wonder who

:11:51.:11:56.

her friends are. More importantly, what it shows is this company is

:11:56.:11:59.

still not showing any contrition. They have hired this highly

:11:59.:12:04.

expensive PR firm in London to put a statement out. There has been no

:12:04.:12:09.

apology, no acceptance of the fact that Rebekah Brooks is ultimately

:12:09.:12:14.

responsible for the culture that allowed these kind of things to

:12:14.:12:17.

happen. People who know Rebekah Brooks say, this is the last thing

:12:17.:12:20.

she would have done, she genuinely was friends with Sara Payne, she

:12:20.:12:25.

would be appalled to learn this went on? I can't speak for Rebekah

:12:25.:12:28.

Brooks and her personal relations, but she was head of the company,

:12:28.:12:32.

and she is a former editor of the newspaper. There was a culture

:12:32.:12:35.

created in that newsroom that allowed a private investigator to

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think it was acceptable to do this kind of thing. Unless she carries

:12:40.:12:45.

responsibility for that, and really accepts that she is, as head of the

:12:45.:12:49.

company, was responsible for setting the tone. Even if she

:12:49.:12:54.

didn't know? It is the culture that allows it to happen, not the

:12:54.:13:01.

specific items of wrongdoing. Rushocked by today's revelations

:13:01.:13:11.
:13:11.:13:15.

that - Simon Rushocked by today's revelations? Simon, are you shocked

:13:15.:13:18.

by today's investigations. The phone was given to her by the paper

:13:18.:13:23.

and the number is in the pocket of one of the investigator, I'm not

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shocked. I don't think it justifies leading Newsnight, it is not a big

:13:27.:13:31.

news story, it is another sordid chapter in the every day history of

:13:31.:13:35.

News of the World. Newsnight can look after itself, it is the front

:13:35.:13:39.

page of the Times tomorrow, the Guardian, I looked at the Telegraph

:13:39.:13:44.

website, and the Mail, Times of India have been carrying the

:13:44.:13:47.

stories? I won't defend anything to do with the News of the World, it

:13:47.:13:50.

is nothing to do with me, it is a shoddy and dreadful newspaper. I'm

:13:50.:13:55.

glad it is closed. But that's gone. It is still a big story, is my

:13:55.:14:00.

point, is it not? There is danger of our profession collectively

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looking slightly ridiculous in the eyes of the public, we have gone on

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about this for three weeks now, at a time when serious stories were

:14:07.:14:10.

rattling around the world, familiar anyone in Africa, the European

:14:11.:14:14.

economy is collapsing, the American economy is collapsing, the welfare

:14:14.:14:18.

state is collapsing. There are serious news stories we have not

:14:18.:14:22.

covered properly because we have been completely obsessed with the

:14:22.:14:26.

whole business. Have we got this out of whack? For two years every

:14:26.:14:30.

media company ignored this scandal on their doorstep, I don't think it

:14:30.:14:35.

is unusual they played catch-up. The symbolism of Sara Payne herself,

:14:36.:14:39.

who led a campaign for Sarah's Law, who had the support of News

:14:39.:14:44.

International, producing leaflets and going to politician, to being

:14:44.:14:47.

given an assurance that she wasn't targeted, and then to be hold by

:14:47.:14:51.

the Metropolitan Police that her perch details are held in Glenn

:14:51.:14:55.

Mulcaire's personal files, ordinary people will be shocked.

:14:55.:14:59.

telephone number was in the file. We know nothing about this. I'm not

:14:59.:15:03.

defending T I can see that Tom is on a role here, my paper is on a

:15:03.:15:07.

role here, the BBC is on a role here, no problem with that at all.

:15:07.:15:10.

I think the professional journalism, which I care about, and has been

:15:10.:15:15.

dragged through the mud, rightly so, needs to be careful, how it reports

:15:15.:15:19.

these stories. I don't think I know that there are a lot of people out

:15:19.:15:23.

there who think we are just overdoing it. Getting on to BSkyB,

:15:23.:15:26.

you have particular concerns about that at the moment what do you make

:15:26.:15:30.

of this part of the story? I think Simon is partly right, this isn't,

:15:30.:15:33.

it doesn't add a great deal, because already we knew the phone

:15:34.:15:40.

hacking was endemic in the News of the World, this is just icing,

:15:40.:15:47.

doesn't seem the appropriate simply, but it is more of the same - simile,

:15:47.:15:51.

or worse, the key issue is today, the more important one, of what has

:15:51.:15:55.

happened at BSkyB. Where the board has unanimously voted to retain

:15:55.:15:59.

James Murdoch as chairman. shouldn't it, we heard Rupert

:15:59.:16:03.

Murdoch say clearly that the News of the World was 1% or less of his

:16:03.:16:06.

business, he does many, many other things, which he does, and BSkyB is

:16:06.:16:11.

a separate company? Well, it is not his company, but it has been

:16:11.:16:15.

treated as though it was a satellite of News Corporation, and

:16:15.:16:20.

the reason why James Murdoch should go is very simple, he's damaged

:16:20.:16:26.

goods. He has a day job in New York as deputy COO of News Corporation,

:16:26.:16:31.

and most importantly, BSkyB is a big British company, it is actually

:16:31.:16:34.

the biggest television company in the UK, it is in the FTSE 100, it

:16:34.:16:38.

is never now going to become a subsidiary of News Corporation. It

:16:38.:16:43.

needs to cut itself off from News Corp, the shareholdings should go

:16:43.:16:48.

down to 29%, and it should become a profitable and no longer a cash cow

:16:48.:16:52.

for News Corporation. But it is hugely profitable, it has been very

:16:52.:16:56.

successful, and done extremely well? Yes. That doesn't mean it

:16:56.:16:59.

should ignore all the rules of corporate governance, it shouldn't

:16:59.:17:06.

be run as a satellite of News Corporation any more. I agree. News

:17:06.:17:11.

Corp is a serious media company, it has unattractive aspects, as many

:17:11.:17:15.

media companies do. It has got rid of its worst product, News of the

:17:15.:17:21.

World, it, I think, should have been allowed to take the rest of

:17:21.:17:23.

the Sky Broadcasting shareholder, it shouldn't be run by the Murdoch

:17:23.:17:27.

family any more. Murdoch has done his bit by the world's media, and

:17:27.:17:32.

the world's media has done its bid by Rupert Murdoch. He has patently

:17:32.:17:38.

come to the point where he has to step aside. The family rightly have

:17:39.:17:41.

been castigated by what was happening at the News of the World,

:17:41.:17:44.

they knew it was going on. It was the worst of the worst. Now the

:17:44.:17:47.

time has come for what might be called for News Corp to become a

:17:47.:17:53.

proper krnings and BSkyB to be a proper company. It - company, and

:17:53.:18:02.

BSkyB to be a report company. do you think? We have had

:18:02.:18:05.

staggeringly contradictory evidence from the editor of the News of the

:18:05.:18:11.

World, and the solicitor of the axe crow moany of what James Murdoch

:18:11.:18:15.

told us at the committee last week. I think we should invite James

:18:15.:18:19.

Murdoch back along with Myler and Crone to get to the bottom of this,

:18:19.:18:24.

find the facts and parliament can move on and let the police to do

:18:24.:18:27.

their inquiry. That is the former editor of the News of the World and

:18:27.:18:30.

the chief lawyer. You want to get to the bottom of the contradiction

:18:30.:18:35.

in the evidence about who saw what, particularly one e-mail? We brought

:18:35.:18:40.

James and Rupert Murdoch in front of u we believed parliament had

:18:40.:18:46.

been misled, he gave evidence and 24 hours later two chief executives

:18:46.:18:50.

contradicted. Parliament needs to get to the facts on that and hand

:18:50.:18:54.

over to the police. Maybe need to look at other things because there

:18:54.:18:58.

are other big things on in the world? Parliament has known this

:18:58.:19:02.

stuff is going on since 2003. I don't know any committee inquiring

:19:02.:19:06.

into the press didn't know that the press was being illegally intrusive

:19:06.:19:10.

in all sorts of ways. There is no defence for it at all, there are

:19:10.:19:13.

much more important issues about press ownership and regulation than

:19:14.:19:17.

this. Final thought. Do you see the shareholders getting very anxious

:19:17.:19:21.

about this, given that the financial side of it is going very

:19:21.:19:27.

well? Well, shareholders are a sue pine lot, but they should get very

:19:27.:19:36.

anxious and make a change. It should be a change financially and

:19:36.:19:40.

as well as governance changes, better for BSkyB. It would be a

:19:40.:19:43.

better organisation if it was genuinely independent of News Corp.

:19:43.:19:48.

Thank you very much. On Capitol Hill tonight, politicians of both

:19:48.:19:51.

parties are posturing over how to cut America's debt. While they

:19:51.:19:55.

fiddle around, in the real America they are struggling with the

:19:55.:19:58.

hardest times many Americans have ever seen, and a sense something

:19:58.:20:04.

terrible has gone wrong in the supposedly most powerful country on

:20:04.:20:09.

earth. In The Grapes of Wrath, John Steinbeck wrote about a family

:20:09.:20:15.

uprooting and hoping find work in California. Paul Mason has retraced

:20:15.:20:25.
:20:25.:20:27.

the journey. To the red country and part of the

:20:27.:20:32.

grey country of Oklahoma, the last rains came gently, and they did not

:20:32.:20:41.

cut the scarred earth. So begins Steinbeck's novel, The

:20:41.:20:45.

Grapes of Wrath. The events it describes happened 80 years ago,

:20:46.:20:51.

but today, once again, America is in the grip of unemployment and

:20:51.:20:57.

Oklahoma in the grip of drought. I'm about to retrace the journey

:20:57.:21:06.

Steinbeck describes. At the cattle market in El Reno, business is

:21:06.:21:11.

brisk, but for the wrong reasons. Farmers are bringing their cows to

:21:11.:21:15.

market because the drought, worse than any for 60 years leaves them

:21:15.:21:23.

with no option. To operate my operation, I need

:21:23.:21:33.
:21:33.:21:34.

$400,000. A year? To keep it flowing. Credit? Yes. Brett farms

:21:34.:21:41.

this land, but cotton, brief, it is all failing. I had to sell the

:21:41.:21:47.

calves earlier than I normally do. Last week I sold half my momma cows.

:21:47.:21:51.

Does it make you feel like giving up? A lot of nights I don't get

:21:51.:21:55.

sleep and I stay up worrying about how will I stretch this out, how

:21:55.:22:00.

will I make this work. But, I believe in the Lord, and he will

:22:00.:22:08.

get us through it. At the cattle market, prices are

:22:08.:22:14.

falling, but, unlike in the 1930s, the whole farming system is

:22:14.:22:17.

underwritten with Government supsidies and loan, but now, even

:22:17.:22:21.

that is under threat, as America moves to cut federal spending. So,

:22:22.:22:28.

at knockdown price, they are selling their future.

:22:28.:22:33.

In the 1930s, tens of thousands left this land and set off west for

:22:33.:22:43.

California. The experience still haunts the landscape. The old route

:22:43.:22:49.

west, root 66, has been replaced by interstate 40. But 66 is still

:22:49.:22:56.

there, just at the side. In Steinbeck, the family make this

:22:56.:23:01.

journey into a world of conflict, rootlessness, prejudice and there

:23:01.:23:05.

is plenty of that today. What there is not today, and there was then,

:23:05.:23:09.

is general agreement about the direction of American economic

:23:09.:23:14.

policy. Because then, the state was set to play a larger part in crisis

:23:14.:23:24.
:23:24.:23:25.

resolution. And now, it is set to shrink.

:23:25.:23:28.

The journey through Texas and New Mexico, takes you into a whole

:23:28.:23:34.

different landscape. Today it is normal for Americans to

:23:34.:23:38.

move home to look for work, the rootlessness that shocked Steinbeck,

:23:38.:23:46.

is almost a way of life. As a result, amid the desert, boom towns,

:23:46.:23:55.

and boom suburbs, that have now turned to bust. The families

:23:55.:23:58.

learned what rights have been observed, the right of privacy in

:23:58.:24:02.

the tent, the right to keep the past, black, hidden in the heart,

:24:02.:24:08.

the right to talk and listen. That is how Steinbeck describes the

:24:08.:24:14.

camp for homeless migrants that the family turned up in. Joy Junction

:24:14.:24:18.

is a modern shelter for the homeless. Normally the families who

:24:18.:24:21.

come here are coping with drink, drugs, domestic violence, but now

:24:21.:24:30.

there is a new kind of customer, the American middle-class. Mime'

:24:30.:24:35.

Larry Antista, this is my daughter Michelle, we are here - I'm Larry

:24:35.:24:40.

Antista, we are here for the economic times, my spouse took off

:24:40.:24:45.

on us, and that cut our income in half, and we lost our house and

:24:45.:24:51.

here we are.'S A struck driver, and he can't work, he works for his

:24:51.:24:59.

welfare payments $300 a month. His daughter, Michelle, is still at

:24:59.:25:04.

school. Do the people at school know where you live? No. They don't

:25:04.:25:09.

ask I don't tell them. You don't show up as homeless, even in the

:25:09.:25:14.

school statistics? No. The sort of rich of America, really, the media,

:25:14.:25:17.

do they understand that every night thousands of people are bedding

:25:17.:25:22.

down like this? No. No. What would you say to them if you could speak

:25:22.:25:26.

to them? If they could live one day of our lives they would see how

:25:26.:25:32.

hard it is. And how good they have it. Because loot of them complain

:25:32.:25:36.

about what they have got which is really dumb. This man was, not long

:25:36.:25:41.

ago, the manager of a vehicle fleet. They lived in a moat tell, but his

:25:41.:25:46.

unemployment money ran out. know when you lose a secure job,

:25:46.:25:51.

and you have to downgrade, you have to downgrade your lifestyle,

:25:51.:25:54.

sometimes the bills start racking up, you only get further behind,

:25:54.:25:58.

after that it catches up and then you start losing stuff. Cars start

:25:59.:26:03.

getting took, can't pay your note, you end up here. Can I ask you how

:26:03.:26:12.

it is for you to cope with all of this? It is stressful. What's the

:26:12.:26:15.

toughest thing, you have been here how many nights? We are on our

:26:15.:26:23.

second week. What's the hardest thing about it? Well, just having

:26:23.:26:33.
:26:33.:26:35.

my kids here. Them. That would be my number one concern.

:26:35.:26:41.

experience of all ba kurky gives me a whole new take on the moat tells

:26:41.:26:47.

flashes past on the free way, look closely and many are housing the

:26:47.:26:51.

hidden homeless. What role does a place like this play in the housing

:26:51.:26:55.

and homelessness system? Huge. Many of the folks for the first seven to

:26:55.:26:59.

ten days of each month, on the first or there about they get the

:26:59.:27:02.

Government welfare cheque. They spend some or all of that forget

:27:02.:27:06.

ago room for seven to ten day, once the cheque runs out they migrate

:27:06.:27:13.

down to Joy Junction. It is like an alternating system. It is. It is a

:27:13.:27:16.

reminder of the basic facts about this recession, it is a housing

:27:17.:27:22.

crisis. Many Americans can't afford to put a roof over their head, and

:27:22.:27:32.
:27:32.:27:38.

home repossessions are still rising. The roads were filled with migrants

:27:38.:27:46.

80 years a office workers, farmers, all displayed by poverty.

:27:46.:27:51.

This landscape of Cactuss and vast canyon, must have seemed to them,

:27:51.:27:59.

like a different planet. If you compare the book to the

:27:59.:28:03.

actual journey, there is nothing in Steinbeck to prepare you for the

:28:03.:28:08.

vastness, the aridity, and the distance that the 30s dust ball

:28:08.:28:12.

migrants had to face. That is because I don't think Steinbeck

:28:12.:28:18.

actually made the full journey, what Steinbeck knew about what was

:28:18.:28:21.

was what was lay at the end of the journey, which was social conflict.

:28:21.:28:26.

Today you don't have to get to the end of the journey to find that.

:28:26.:28:29.

Arizona has become the political fault line of America, above all,

:28:29.:28:35.

on the issue of migration. The boom times drew in millions of his

:28:35.:28:40.

spannic migrant, millions illegal. But Arizona is still in recession

:28:40.:28:46.

and tensions are rising. In Phoenix, the inmates are forced

:28:46.:28:52.

to live in tents. The temperature when I went there was 114 degrees

:28:52.:28:57.

Fahrenheit. They are forbidden to cover their heads in the sun. As

:28:57.:29:03.

well as pink towels, socks and sheets, they are required to wear

:29:03.:29:07.

pink underwear, the objective, humiliation. In this something he

:29:07.:29:11.

gre gated section, every man is a migrant, jailed under the anti-

:29:11.:29:16.

migrant laws, and destined for deportation. Under a law called

:29:16.:29:19.

SB1070, if you are stopped by the police and cannot produce documents

:29:19.:29:25.

to prove your legal residence, you have committed an offence. Other

:29:25.:29:28.

laws criminalise the hiring of migrants, transporting them.

:29:28.:29:34.

don't have a name any more, you become a number. They call you

:29:34.:29:37.

alien, as if you were from another planet.

:29:37.:29:40.

Fernando Lopez was picked up for driving without a license. He spent

:29:40.:29:44.

a month in the prison system, and is now on bail, fighting

:29:45.:29:51.

deportation. How do young Mexican men live, what kind of jobs do they

:29:51.:29:58.

do? House keeping, land caping, restaurants. Every restaurant you

:29:58.:30:02.

will find Mexicans in the back. What makes people come here since

:30:02.:30:07.

it is so inhospitable, why do people still come? It is very hard

:30:07.:30:13.

for them to live over there. They don't have any other option than to

:30:13.:30:16.

go to go to another country. Probably the best option is the

:30:17.:30:25.

United States. But the migrants keep on coming, in the car parks,

:30:25.:30:28.

at hardware stores, here and across America, men wait for casual work,

:30:28.:30:37.

for cash. As for the families, at this

:30:37.:30:40.

Hispanic community centre, there is trepidation. Actually we are living

:30:41.:30:45.

in state of fear. We can't even go to the store, or go out like we

:30:45.:30:52.

used to do. Take the kids to the park, or take them somewhere to the

:30:52.:30:55.

mall, we can't do that, now the kids are feared that the police

:30:55.:31:00.

might stop their parents, or might stop us. So, right now, we just

:31:00.:31:04.

stay home, and we don't do nothing, we just stay there.

:31:04.:31:09.

At the office of the man in charge of law enforcement, there is a

:31:09.:31:14.

Bailey protest, but fear is what he's aiming at. They are leaving,

:31:14.:31:20.

they don't want to go into the hot tents, they worry about the Sheriff

:31:20.:31:25.

rounding them up in the work place, or coming into our county. That is

:31:25.:31:29.

why they are leaving. If you can do it in this county, you can do it

:31:29.:31:35.

across the United States, if people have the will to do it and fight

:31:35.:31:41.

the politics, or not care about the politics, or the his spannic vote,

:31:41.:31:48.

or the employ - Hispanic vote, or the employers having cheap labour.

:31:48.:31:55.

To the argument, that his spannics do the jobs nobody else - his

:31:55.:32:00.

spannics do the jobs nobody wants, he says this? This is the greatest

:32:00.:32:05.

country in the world, for them to say nobody lels do these jobs, are

:32:05.:32:10.

you kidding, any time we go into the business and drag the people

:32:10.:32:13.

out working illegally, they get tonnes of people applying for the

:32:13.:32:16.

job that are US citizens. We have an economic problem in this country,

:32:16.:32:21.

we have 10% unemployment. You have people from all professions that

:32:21.:32:28.

will wash cars, to make money for their families. You are telling me

:32:28.:32:38.

nobody will do these jobs, that is a cop out.

:32:38.:32:44.

The last part of the journey would be the most arduous, vigilante

:32:44.:32:48.

squads, roadblocks, strikes. In the 30s, people made this journey

:32:48.:32:52.

because at the end of it there were jobs. But for the past year,

:32:52.:32:56.

America's been going through what economists call a jobless recovery,

:32:56.:33:05.

and right now, even the recovery itself looks like it is stalling.

:33:05.:33:11.

In the book, the family crossed the desert by night, and at dawn they

:33:11.:33:19.

come to the San Joaquimvalley. drove through in the morning glow,

:33:19.:33:24.

and the sun came up behind them, suddenly they saw all the great

:33:24.:33:34.

valley below them. In Steinbeck, the migrants come to California to

:33:34.:33:39.

look for work, and they find work. But the book is a metaphor for

:33:39.:33:42.

something else, it is about the search for a new economic model

:33:43.:33:46.

that can create jobs, sustain growth and drive America out of

:33:46.:33:49.

recession. And that's a question they still face, even in place like

:33:50.:33:57.

this. The journey ended in bakeserfield,

:33:57.:34:03.

today, the - Bakersfield, today the biggest employers are oil and

:34:03.:34:09.

farming, but the biggest employer by far is the US military, when

:34:09.:34:13.

America boomed the town boomed, the population grew by a quarter in ten

:34:13.:34:18.

years. But now 15% are unemployed, and one home in 70 has been

:34:18.:34:24.

repossessed. All across the south, I found the

:34:24.:34:29.

same basic problem, not enough jobs, and not enough credit to revive the

:34:29.:34:36.

housing market. And in politics there is plenty of wrath. You can

:34:36.:34:41.

see and read more about Paul's journey from Oklahoma to California

:34:41.:34:47.

on our website. General Petraeus pet is regards as

:34:47.:34:53.

one of America's best - General David Petraeus is regarded as one

:34:53.:35:01.

of America's brightest. He begins his career as head of the FBI. His

:35:01.:35:06.

time in Afghanistan ends with troops withdrawing, a suggest of

:35:06.:35:11.

huge debai. As he headed home, we spoke - huge debate. As he headed

:35:11.:35:18.

home we spoke to him about it. NATO forces in Afghanistan have a new

:35:18.:35:24.

commander, General David Petraeus has served for a year, but he has

:35:24.:35:28.

been called home to head the CIA. The force he left behind is being

:35:28.:35:33.

cut faster than he recommended, and the insurgency has shown itself

:35:33.:35:40.

capable of hitting backs, with assassinations and attacks. NATO

:35:40.:35:43.

insists it is winning. This afternoon I asked the general what

:35:43.:35:46.

the grounds for optimisim could be? What we have seen now recently is

:35:46.:35:50.

developing into a trend. In fact, this past week, yet again, the

:35:51.:35:57.

level of insurgent attacks was a good bit lower, over 20% lower than

:35:57.:36:03.

the level of attacks the same week last year. That makes now nine of

:36:03.:36:09.

the last 13 weeks in which this has taken place, in which levels of

:36:09.:36:16.

attack s are lower than the course ponding month last year. That is

:36:16.:36:20.

completely contrary to what the intelligence professionals

:36:20.:36:22.

predicted. Do you think the strategic differences and the death

:36:23.:36:26.

of Bin Laden has checked political momentum, or is it not really

:36:26.:36:31.

possible to see it like that on the battlefield? It is a very

:36:31.:36:36.

significant blow to Al-Qaeda senior leadership, to the overall

:36:36.:36:40.

franchise of Al-Qaeda as well. He was the iconic figure of the

:36:40.:36:46.

movement. Even his image has been tarnished, diminished, by the final

:36:46.:36:53.

pictures seen of him, of just the fact that he is dead it's gone. And

:36:53.:36:58.

in the Arab world that is a, the biggest blow you can sustain. That,

:36:58.:37:04.

in a sense, is quite significant, obviously, it turns out he was

:37:04.:37:07.

quite active with operational guidance and working the movement.

:37:07.:37:14.

He was also a very effective fundraiser. His replacement is no

:37:14.:37:19.

Osama Bin Laden. So the movement, the overall Al-Qaeda franchise and

:37:19.:37:24.

network, has sustained a substantial blow. Having said that,

:37:24.:37:29.

it is not apparent what effect that has had on the insurgents fighting

:37:29.:37:34.

in Afghanistan. Although some of their leaders, certainly, have had

:37:34.:37:38.

second thoughts about how frequently they might move or

:37:38.:37:43.

relocate at various times, when they are in areas that they deem

:37:43.:37:49.

safe. There has been talk, particularly I'm thinking about the

:37:49.:37:55.

chairman of the joint chiefs, but as this process of drawdown goes on,

:37:55.:38:01.

at this rate there could be risks that are being embraced by going at

:38:01.:38:06.

that speed. What do you think can be done over the coming year, 18

:38:06.:38:11.

months, to mitigate the risks in the draw down? The key, of course,

:38:11.:38:16.

is to maintain the pressure on the insurgents, to reduce their

:38:16.:38:20.

capabilities, as much as is possible. To disrupt, to dismantle,

:38:20.:38:26.

in some cases to defeat them, in some local areas. And then to

:38:26.:38:29.

establish a combination of local security initiatives, Afghan

:38:29.:38:34.

national security forces, that can back them up, Afghan enablers,

:38:34.:38:39.

because again, keep in mind, we built the infantry formations first,

:38:39.:38:45.

now we are helping them build their artillery units, their fixed and

:38:45.:38:50.

rotary wing aviation, military intelligence, route clearance teams,

:38:50.:38:53.

engineering units, logistics and all of that. That is an important

:38:53.:38:57.

component as well. Indeed, to build that more rapidly, than we actually

:38:57.:39:03.

draw down. How big a risk to what's been achieved is the state of

:39:03.:39:11.

relations now with Pakistan? Well, clearly the relationship between my

:39:11.:39:18.

country and Pakistan has seen some challenges, needless to say, in

:39:18.:39:22.

recent months. Really in the last eight months or so. My hope,

:39:22.:39:27.

frankly, is that we recognise the mutual objective that is we have,

:39:27.:39:33.

and that we can indeed begin a process of reviving some elements

:39:33.:39:38.

of a relationship that has indeed been difficult. We do have a lot of

:39:38.:39:42.

common aims. It is, well I would say, I wouldn't say it is hard to

:39:42.:39:46.

imagine things getting worse, there could be a complete shutdown of

:39:46.:39:50.

relation, but it is at a pretty bad state, they have denied visas to

:39:50.:39:55.

advisers to their forces, they are claimed by the Afghan Government to

:39:55.:39:59.

be shelling into Afghanistan. They say they have withdrawn all co-

:39:59.:40:02.

operation from the US on drone strikes and that kind of thing. Do

:40:02.:40:07.

you really see the beginnings of a rebuilding of that, or are things

:40:07.:40:12.

still in the deep freeze? I do, actually. I think everyone has

:40:13.:40:19.

stepped back from the abyss. After looking into it, realising, once

:40:19.:40:25.

again, that we have again very important objectives, many of which

:40:25.:40:29.

we share, and we need to focus on those, and move forward.

:40:29.:40:33.

The campaign in Afghanistan, it has been a long slog, and there has

:40:33.:40:40.

been a huge price paid, in lives, in money, do you think that the

:40:40.:40:46.

patience of the US, the UK, NATO, will hold out over the next few

:40:46.:40:51.

years, can be depended upon, or do you see exhaustion setting in?

:40:52.:40:58.

has been a long war, no question about it. And our countries have

:40:59.:41:04.

shown enormous determination and persistence. My sense is that if

:41:04.:41:08.

that progress continues, if the people recognise that this does

:41:08.:41:13.

enable us to achieve our important objective over time, that they will

:41:13.:41:18.

continue to provide the requisite support, but it is incumbent on us

:41:18.:41:23.

and our Afghan partner, indeed, to continue to build on that progress,

:41:23.:41:28.

so that it can be very clearly seen by all those back home, who have

:41:28.:41:35.

sacrificed so much for this effort. Thank you very much. It is great to

:41:35.:41:39.

be with you. A former editor of Newsnight once

:41:39.:41:43.

told me that he thought this programme maybe one of the greatest

:41:43.:41:48.

contraceptives known to mankind. That therefore didn't entirely come

:41:48.:41:51.

as a shock that a blog claimed watching Newsnight when your

:41:51.:41:55.

partner goes to bed, is a sure sign your relationship is in trouble. We

:41:55.:41:59.

couldn't resist this one, if you are still watching alone or in

:41:59.:42:06.

couples, this is what Stephen Smith is making of it!

:42:06.:42:11.

You know how t it is late, it is just the two of you there on the

:42:11.:42:18.

couch. Time to snuggle up and share your favourite news almanac. Good

:42:18.:42:23.

luck with that. It turns out the only thing that's getting turgid,

:42:23.:42:31.

is our analysis, that is according to our highly-trained, eh,

:42:31.:42:33.

freelance journalist. It is a significant sign if your marriage

:42:33.:42:38.

is going on. If you watch Newsnight. At all? The scheduling of it, the

:42:38.:42:44.

timing of it, the attitude of it is not conducive to the end of a good

:42:44.:42:49.

day and a good marriage really. it ain't so. We turned to a long

:42:49.:42:53.

time Newsnight viewer and contributor, Edwina Currie.

:42:53.:43:02.

She would stick up for us, wouldn't she? No she wouldn't. I'm not the

:43:02.:43:06.

least doubtful that watching Newsnight can have a detrimental

:43:06.:43:10.

effect on relationships. Afterall, you are sitting on the sofa and

:43:10.:43:14.

your beloved says you are going up to bed. And you think, do I really

:43:14.:43:19.

want to follow this rather large, perhaps rather bearded character

:43:19.:43:23.

who is only interested in watching football on tele, when I could be

:43:23.:43:33.
:43:33.:43:41.

with Jeremy Paxman, I think that is # Let me be good to you

:43:41.:43:47.

# # Let me be good to you 'S more like it. Newsnight unsexy,

:43:47.:43:51.

I don't think so. What girl, or guy, wouldn't melt a little at the

:43:51.:43:59.

thought of curling up with one of our box sets. Experts believe this

:43:59.:44:04.

early erotic print may show a couple watching the programme!

:44:04.:44:09.

Newsnight is one of the greatest aphrodisiacs, political debate,

:44:09.:44:15.

what more could a woman ask for. Seriously, and a man. If you are

:44:15.:44:19.

into mental stimulation, as a bit of foreplay. Are you sure you're

:44:19.:44:23.

tuned to the right channel? Absolutely positive. As a

:44:23.:44:28.

professional, doctor, is it possible that Newsnight could be

:44:28.:44:36.

some kind of aphrodisiac? Ha ha, ...I Want you to think about this,

:44:36.:44:45.

this is a serious matter? Newsnight can give topics for two people.

:44:45.:44:49.

pillow talk? To talk about afterwards. Afterwards. After the

:44:49.:44:53.

programme. After the programme or after the watershed? Ha ha, after

:44:53.:44:57.

the programme. It can do that. I think people talk a lot about

:44:57.:45:03.

what's going on today. People should. Everybody is affected in

:45:03.:45:07.

one degree or another, unless of course people want to shut off from

:45:07.:45:12.

it, there are a lot of people who do. But the people at the Middle

:45:12.:45:16.

Class Handbook prefer to see our programme as a dirty little secret.

:45:16.:45:20.

If you are man it is to be treated like a form of pornography, what

:45:20.:45:25.

you should do is watch it very quietly perhaps on your iPhone on

:45:25.:45:30.

the iPlayer during the day, or watch it can friend or discuss it

:45:30.:45:35.

in the pub with your - watch it with your friends or discuss it in

:45:35.:45:41.

the pub. Don't let Paxman become the third man in your marriage.

:45:41.:45:48.

Newsnight is a tonic to my relationship, if you have an

:45:48.:45:53.

argument and watch Jeremy take um bridge with an unforth coming

:45:53.:45:57.

politician, or anyone, that apieces my rage, mellows the situation.

:45:57.:46:07.
:46:07.:46:08.

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