27/07/2011 Newsnight


27/07/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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It may not give him sleepless nights, well not as much as NATO

:00:08.:00:12.

bombs do, but the British have decided to chuck out Colonel

:00:12.:00:17.

Gaddafi's representatives in London, and to recognise the rebel National

:00:17.:00:20.

Transitional Council in Benghazi as the voice of the country. About

:00:20.:00:24.

time too, you might think, but what does it mean? Supporters of the

:00:24.:00:34.

rebels can't even get into the building. This is for us, this is

:00:34.:00:38.

for the Libyan people. Gaddafi this is for Libya.

:00:38.:00:41.

The new ambassador, who yesterday was just another London exile, is

:00:41.:00:46.

here with us. The man who was Gordon Brown's

:00:46.:00:50.

secretary for Work and Pensions has been looking for new ways to reform

:00:50.:00:54.

the welfare system. Could it reconnect his party with the voters.

:00:54.:00:58.

What I would love is to see Britain fall in love with welfare again,

:00:58.:01:02.

for people to love the welfare state as much as they do the NHS.

:01:02.:01:08.

He's here to explain his ideas to a couple of sceptics.

:01:08.:01:12.

And nine out of ten scientific experiments on monkeys are deemed

:01:12.:01:22.
:01:22.:01:23.

necessary, high quality and useful. But why isn't it ten out of ten.

:01:23.:01:28.

Only a few weeks ago, the Foreign Secretary was telling us it was

:01:28.:01:31.

quite impossible for the British Government to give diplomatic

:01:31.:01:35.

recognition to the rebels trying to topple Colonel Gaddafi. Today,

:01:35.:01:39.

finally he changed his mind, and booted the remaining Gaddafi

:01:39.:01:42.

diplomats out of Britain. Apparently it was possible afterall,

:01:42.:01:46.

not least because the Americans had decided it was. The dictator,

:01:46.:01:53.

meanwhile, survives in Tripoli, after months of NATO bombing.

:01:53.:01:57.

You know what you did Gaddafi, you are killers, we will not forget

:01:57.:02:01.

what you did. Today they were outside the London embassy, by the

:02:01.:02:07.

end of the week, it will be their's. Supporters of the Libyan opposition

:02:07.:02:13.

were delighted that Britain has given Gaddafi's diplomats 24 hours

:02:13.:02:20.

to leave. The policy has shifted, the opposition are deemed Libya's

:02:20.:02:23.

authority. We have been waiting for this time and moment for five

:02:23.:02:29.

months now. We are very, very happy. Remember diplomacy, well to reverse

:02:29.:02:34.

the normal formula, it is war by other means. For months we have had

:02:34.:02:40.

the curious situation where Britain's bombing Gaddafi in his

:02:40.:02:44.

stronghold in Libya, while allowing his tkpwhats to remain here in the

:02:44.:02:50.

embassy in - diplomats to remain here in London. Suddenly that is

:02:50.:02:55.

changing, Britain is tightening the diplomating squeeze, why now?

:02:55.:02:57.

The Foreign Secretary was in Benghazi last month, now he says

:02:57.:03:03.

his status at the whole of Libya is unique, it warrants recognition of

:03:03.:03:07.

the National Transitional Council. Libya's assets will be unfrozen for

:03:07.:03:12.

their benefit. The Libyan people will be assured we will remain on

:03:12.:03:16.

their side for as long as it takes. I'm making the announcement today

:03:16.:03:19.

to reflect the facts on the ground and increase our support for those

:03:19.:03:23.

fighting and working for a better future in Libya. On the ground n

:03:23.:03:27.

Lybia, the effects of British and French bombs continue to be felt

:03:27.:03:33.

with the reported 40 strikes a day. Gaddafi's forces, skon scripts and

:03:33.:03:36.

mercenaries, are said to be near breaking point. In a way the

:03:36.:03:39.

bombing campaign is part of the generalised pressure, it is not a

:03:39.:03:43.

silver bullet by any stretch, it is part of a generalised pressure to

:03:43.:03:46.

create an uprising in Tripoli. As and when that happens, then I think

:03:46.:03:50.

you will find opposition forces moving into the city pretty quickly.

:03:50.:03:54.

Do you think that will happen? convinced myself there will be an

:03:54.:03:57.

uprising in Tripoli, whether it will happen soon as opposed to a

:03:57.:04:02.

couple of months time, we just don't know. But it has dragged on,

:04:02.:04:08.

and if Gaddafi holds on much longer, into August and Ramadan, NATO's

:04:08.:04:12.

ultimate success, always deemed inevitable, will ring hollow. The

:04:12.:04:17.

Libyan opposition TV channel, out of Doha, announced that the

:04:17.:04:21.

National Transitional Council had already appoint add London

:04:21.:04:27.

ambassador. But who are - appointed a London ambassador, but who are

:04:27.:04:30.

they themselves? It is an arrangement to bring into coalition

:04:30.:04:35.

a group of opposition supporters. Some of them are pretty Islamic

:04:35.:04:40.

fundamentalist, some are very secular, some are on the buy sis of

:04:40.:04:46.

tribal loyalties, a mixed - basis of tribal loyalties a mixed bunch.

:04:46.:04:50.

On Monday William Hague revealed that Gaddafi could remain in Libya,

:04:50.:04:59.

as long as he relinguished power, this confounded the advice of

:04:59.:05:04.

before. Our message to Colonel Gaddafi is to go now. He must go.

:05:04.:05:07.

It now transpires they merely need him to leave the presidential tent.

:05:07.:05:10.

Britain has thus fallen into line with the French policy. As for

:05:10.:05:13.

recognising the transitional council, that too is a policy

:05:14.:05:17.

already adopted elsewhere, by the international Contact Group, two

:05:17.:05:21.

weeks ago. But Gaddafi, remember, is facing an international arrest

:05:21.:05:28.

warrant for war crimes. So could he legally remain in internal exile.

:05:28.:05:31.

If privately Gaddafi, or those speaking for him, are sending

:05:31.:05:36.

signals to the British and the French, this would be a face-saving

:05:36.:05:40.

way out, then I can understand. makes sense? It makes sense, I can

:05:40.:05:43.

understand why the British Government would be publicly

:05:43.:05:46.

assuring him that this could be a way forward. But if they are not

:05:46.:05:50.

getting those signals, then the British Government is itself

:05:50.:05:54.

sending mixed signals and that is going to tend to undermine the

:05:54.:05:57.

effectiveness of the arrest warrant and the strategy that has been put

:05:57.:06:01.

in place so far. Isn't any Government compelled to arrest him,

:06:01.:06:04.

because the International Criminal Court have warrant out for him?

:06:04.:06:06.

Under the statute of the International Criminal Court, there

:06:06.:06:09.

is a rule in one of the little known provision that is allows the

:06:10.:06:14.

Security Council, to revisit the situation where it has instigated

:06:14.:06:19.

the investigation, which it did in this case and pass a new resolution,

:06:19.:06:22.

in effect, suspending the investigation and possibly also the

:06:22.:06:27.

arrest warrant. So there are possibilities in

:06:27.:06:31.

what's unchartered legal territory. The Libyan opposition will feel

:06:31.:06:33.

politically they are closer tonight to achieving their target. In

:06:33.:06:37.

London, at least, they are about to take possession. In Libya,

:06:37.:06:42.

Gaddafi's days may be numbered but he still has support. Here at rally

:06:42.:06:47.

last night, is Abdel Baser al- Megrahi, the man convicted of the

:06:47.:06:52.

Libyan bombing, defying medical prognosis, still alive.

:06:52.:06:55.

Our diplomatic editor is in Cairo, from where he joins us now. How

:06:55.:07:02.

does this look from Cairo, Mark? don't think it will surprise you if

:07:03.:07:07.

I tell you that Britain is kicking out eight Libyan diplomats has

:07:07.:07:10.

hardly stopped the traffic here at night. There is more interest in

:07:10.:07:14.

local media in the idea that the transitional council will take over

:07:14.:07:18.

the embassy, that certain funds may be freed up. But overall, the tone

:07:18.:07:22.

in the region seems to have been set in recent days by some quite

:07:22.:07:26.

pessimist be comments from the UN envoy, who is supposedly looking at

:07:26.:07:32.

way it find a way out of the Libyan embroilment. He's talked about the

:07:32.:07:35.

two sides not having moved at all in their position since the bombing

:07:35.:07:38.

started. That leaves a lot of people, I think, feeling this is

:07:39.:07:42.

just going to have to go on. I was speaking to a former senior

:07:42.:07:45.

Egyptian Air Force officer this evening, he basically said NATO has

:07:45.:07:49.

to carry on, we understand that, he described it as a relatively cheap

:07:49.:07:52.

operation in terms of the number of aircraft, and he said it could have

:07:52.:07:56.

a very cheap outcome with the death of one man and drew his finger

:07:56.:08:00.

across his throat. I think there is understanding here, that it may

:08:00.:08:04.

well carry on, and that the diplomatic situation may be pretty

:08:04.:08:08.

much deadlocked. What about the suggestion that it could end with

:08:08.:08:15.

Colonel Gaddafi still in Libya in some form? This is a really

:08:15.:08:19.

interesting area, in terms of diplomacy, the man I referred to,

:08:19.:08:22.

the official UN envoy, is not rated particularly by the British and

:08:22.:08:26.

French Governments. They have been exploring through other

:08:26.:08:29.

intermediaries various possible ways out of this. We know the

:08:29.:08:32.

African Union has been involved, the South Africans, we also know

:08:32.:08:35.

the Russians have been involved. I think it is really on the Russians

:08:36.:08:39.

that they pin their hopes. Now, we were hearing in the report just

:08:39.:08:44.

then, from the profess yo, that things could be done by the

:08:44.:08:48.

security d professor, that things could be done by the security

:08:48.:08:52.

powers to lift that arrest warrant if that was part of a package. If

:08:52.:08:55.

that situation was reached, and there is no indication tonight that

:08:55.:09:00.

they are that close to a solution, then you would have US, UK, France

:09:00.:09:04.

and, of course, Russia, as the brokers of such a deal, stepping

:09:04.:09:08.

forward. China wouldn't block it. You can see how it might just work.

:09:08.:09:12.

Most people seem to think we are still some way from that.

:09:12.:09:19.

We are joined now by the representative of the National

:09:19.:09:22.

Transitional Council, he was made effectively Libyan ambassador to

:09:23.:09:27.

London today. When did you learn? This morning. Were you surprised?

:09:27.:09:32.

Yes, a bit surprised. Have you any experience as a diplomat? No, I

:09:32.:09:37.

haven't any experience. But I'm a political fighter for more than 30

:09:37.:09:46.

years, I live in exile, and I am happy to serve my country and the

:09:46.:09:52.

relations between the UK and the new Libya. We appreciate very much

:09:52.:09:56.

the decision of the British Government, from the beginning of

:09:56.:10:03.

the crisis until now. But it is 30 years since you have been in Libya?

:10:04.:10:08.

33 years I'm away from Libya. that going to make it difficult to

:10:09.:10:15.

represent Libya here in Britain? live with Libyan problems, the

:10:15.:10:21.

Libyan life all my life. I'm in touch with my relations, with my

:10:21.:10:27.

friend, and I know what is going on in Libya every day. You're a

:10:27.:10:30.

journalist aren't you? Yes. I was reading something you wrote in

:10:30.:10:37.

February this year, I was rather astonished by it, you said, that

:10:37.:10:41.

despite the heavy sacrifice they are suffering every day, Libyans

:10:41.:10:44.

reject any foreign intervention even for their defence and

:10:44.:10:47.

protection s that still your position? At that time because

:10:47.:10:51.

there was no bombing and no atrocities. You didn't want any

:10:51.:10:56.

bombing? No atrocities from Gaddafi, but when he used his own weapons

:10:56.:11:01.

against the civilians, we have to ask for help. So we are

:11:01.:11:06.

appreciating the help of the international community, of the

:11:06.:11:10.

Arabic world, and everyone who helps us. There is also confusion

:11:10.:11:14.

about what is going to be the end game here. The British and various

:11:14.:11:19.

others were saying very early on that Gaddafi had to leave Libya, do

:11:19.:11:24.

you think he can stay there and this crisis be solved? No, it is

:11:24.:11:30.

impossible. So he has to quit the country? Either he stays in power,

:11:30.:11:36.

or he quits. And disappears from the stage in Libya. He can quit

:11:36.:11:40.

power, quit the Presidential Palace and stay in Libya do you think?

:11:40.:11:44.

I think it is impossible also. He will be taken to the courts, even

:11:44.:11:47.

to the criminal courts, or to the Libyan courts. That is what is

:11:48.:11:50.

being suggested by the British Government, that he might some how

:11:50.:11:57.

manage to stay living in Libya? think they will change finally

:11:57.:12:03.

their view, and many countries I think they got a lot of information

:12:03.:12:08.

now that Gaddafi and his soldiers, in the weakest position, at this

:12:08.:12:13.

time. Where would you like him to go?

:12:13.:12:20.

soon as possible. Where would you like him to go? He can decide, he

:12:20.:12:25.

can go to ...Should He be put on trial at the International Criminal

:12:25.:12:33.

Court? Yes, if they got him. They asked us in the last you know ...As

:12:33.:12:40.

Far as the people you represent are concerned, we heard in that report

:12:40.:12:44.

from Peter Marshall, that they are a broad coalition, some are

:12:44.:12:47.

secularist, some Islamic fundamentalist, what do you stand

:12:47.:12:54.

for apart from getting rid of Gaddafi? I think the moderate

:12:54.:12:58.

Libyan is the mainstream. When you look for the people who are

:12:58.:13:06.

fighting now on the ground, they are not elite, they are not

:13:06.:13:13.

fundamentalists, they are from the mainstream of Libyan people. And I

:13:13.:13:17.

think also the future will be controlled by the mainstream who

:13:17.:13:25.

look for work, or look for a good standard of life, who look for good

:13:25.:13:28.

hospitals, good schools, that is what they look for.

:13:28.:13:35.

When do you get possession of the embassy? Maybe next week. You hope?

:13:35.:13:42.

Yes. Have they told you how soon the current people will leave?

:13:42.:13:47.

think very soon they will leave. Thank you very much indeed.

:13:47.:13:51.

What's to be done about the welfare system in this country? As they

:13:51.:13:54.

looked around at the wreckage of the last Government in the

:13:54.:13:58.

aftermath of last year's election wipout, many senior Labour figures

:13:58.:14:01.

realised that many people had lost faith in them because they lost

:14:01.:14:06.

faith in the way the welfare system works. Now those Labour figures see

:14:06.:14:10.

reforming the system as a vital thing to reconnect with the voters.

:14:10.:14:14.

We asked James Purnell, secretary for Work and Pensions in Gordon

:14:14.:14:24.
:14:24.:14:26.

Brown's Government, what he thought When I was a cabinet minister, we

:14:26.:14:29.

spent more money on welfare, because we wanted to reduce poverty,

:14:29.:14:33.

it was one of the things that everybody in the Labour Government

:14:33.:14:36.

agreed about. But when it came to the last election, one of the

:14:37.:14:40.

reasons that we lost was that traditional Labour supporters no

:14:40.:14:45.

longer backed the welfare state. When he was in his teens...Remember

:14:45.:14:50.

This famous encounter, everyone focused on the discussion about

:14:50.:14:53.

immigration, it was what came before that is to revealing. Three

:14:53.:14:58.

main things I was drummed in when I was a child, was education, health

:14:58.:15:04.

service and looking after people who are vulnerable. But there is

:15:05.:15:09.

too many people now who aren't vulnerable, but they can claim and

:15:09.:15:14.

people who are vulnerable can't get claims can't get it. They shouldn't

:15:14.:15:19.

be doing that. So that's Mrs Duffy, one of the really interesting

:15:19.:15:24.

things about her is that she's born in 1945 she's a Beveridge baby,

:15:24.:15:29.

part of the generation that grew up with new council estates and who

:15:29.:15:34.

love the welfare state as much as the NHS. But not any more.

:15:34.:15:39.

The pollster, Peter Kellner, says there is plenty of evidence that

:15:39.:15:43.

welfare supporters have lost faith in the welfare state. Great many of

:15:43.:15:46.

the people who one would have thought would be natural Labour

:15:46.:15:52.

voters came to think, by the end of Labour's time in power, that Labour

:15:52.:15:57.

reflected special groups. Immigrant, public sector workers, the poorest,

:15:57.:16:04.

single mothers. It was not seen as a party for the generality of white

:16:04.:16:10.

working-class Britain. And I think Gillian Duffy represented a

:16:10.:16:12.

widespread feeling that people paying their taxes and National

:16:13.:16:16.

Insurance, they thought it was a contributory system that would work

:16:16.:16:20.

fairly over their lifetime to their benefit, and they came to feel they

:16:20.:16:27.

weren't getting it back. As the as a result of much

:16:27.:16:30.

intensive study into questions of social security, Sir we have

:16:30.:16:34.

Beveridge is the recognised authority on present day and post-

:16:34.:16:37.

war problems. Voters loved Beveridge's welfare state, because

:16:37.:16:42.

it was based on a clear principle. In his words, benefit in return for

:16:42.:16:47.

contribution, rather than free allowances from the state was what

:16:47.:16:51.

the people of Britain require. extra you pay is your contribution

:16:51.:16:55.

towards the pension you will get when the time comes. This young

:16:55.:16:59.

fella can look forward to a secure old age.

:16:59.:17:03.

Jon Cruddas is the MP for Dagenham, he and I were elected at the same

:17:03.:17:06.

time. He believes that there is still a

:17:06.:17:10.

lot we can learn from that idea of social solidarity, that came out of

:17:10.:17:14.

Second World War. I think there was a new covenant

:17:14.:17:17.

between the people and the Government, at local level as well

:17:17.:17:22.

as national level, that you had good quality housing, you had good

:17:22.:17:26.

quality secure jobs for you and your family. You had pensions that

:17:26.:17:30.

went along with that, and you had public service, health and

:17:30.:17:33.

education that were developing and you could rely on it. It is about

:17:33.:17:36.

the essential character of the community and the country actually,

:17:36.:17:41.

it is a distinct Hallmark in terms of our sense of duty and obligation

:17:41.:17:45.

to others, beyond an individual economic transfer. Actually people

:17:45.:17:48.

were buying into it emotionally weren't they, it was deaf nigs of

:17:48.:17:52.

who they were and what society was - definition of who they were and

:17:52.:17:57.

what society was like? I like it, it resonates today as well as 1945.

:17:57.:18:01.

The reason Britain has fallen out of love with welfare is the

:18:01.:18:06.

covenant has broken down. We have a welfare state that isn't demanding

:18:06.:18:09.

enough of people and doesn't protect them enough. There are

:18:09.:18:13.

dozens of benefits in this country, they offer something to people that

:18:13.:18:18.

they don't value enough when times are good, but don't protect them

:18:18.:18:21.

enough when times are bad. We should have a smaller number of

:18:21.:18:24.

protection, but ones people would really value. Things of which

:18:24.:18:28.

people would say, that's why I pay my taxes. A bit like they do for

:18:28.:18:32.

the NHS. So there would be a right to work,

:18:32.:18:37.

but also an obligation to work. The Government would guarantee you

:18:37.:18:40.

a job, but if you didn't take it up, you would lose your benefit, you

:18:41.:18:44.

would get more if you paid in, perhaps some sort of wage

:18:44.:18:48.

protection, while you looked for another job. Free childcare would

:18:48.:18:51.

enable more parents to work. If you contributed all your life, it would

:18:52.:18:56.

be clear you would get a higher pension than those who hadn't paid

:18:56.:19:01.

in. To fund all that we might have to look to cut somewhere else,

:19:01.:19:05.

higher rate tax relief on pensions, free bus basss and free TV license,

:19:05.:19:09.

even some parts of child benefit, perhaps.

:19:09.:19:12.

Liam Byrne represents one of the poorest constituencies in the

:19:12.:19:17.

country, but that makes him more in favour of reforming welfare rather

:19:17.:19:22.

than less. Right now the problem I think we have got in Britain is

:19:22.:19:26.

that people don't feel they get out of the welfare state what they put

:19:26.:19:31.

in. And they sort of feel that if we just stopped rewarding the

:19:31.:19:35.

people behaving irresponsibly, there would be more money to help

:19:35.:19:38.

those who were responsible and were doing the right thing. It is really

:19:38.:19:43.

important that we face this blunt reality that people don't think

:19:43.:19:48.

that the Labour Party was strong enough on the responsibility to

:19:48.:19:54.

take work if you could. We're not a head-on - ahead on welfare reform

:19:54.:19:56.

now, we have to get back into the lead.

:19:56.:20:00.

Liam is right. We needing to back to that Beveridge idea, of benefit

:20:00.:20:04.

in return for contribution. So what I would love is to see

:20:04.:20:07.

Britain fall in love with welfare again, for people to love the

:20:07.:20:11.

welfare state as much as they do the NHS, and I think for us to do

:20:11.:20:17.

that we will have to show everybody that people had to contribute to

:20:17.:20:21.

the welfare state. What we really need to do now is show people that

:20:21.:20:25.

the welfare state protects people. It is too late for people to fall

:20:25.:20:29.

in love with something called the welfare state, they might fall in

:20:29.:20:34.

love with something called the protection state.

:20:34.:20:39.

James Purnell joins us in the studio. We're also joined by

:20:39.:20:43.

Elizabeth Truss, who is the Conservative MP for South-West

:20:43.:20:47.

Norfolk, and Vidhya Alakeson, the research direction for the

:20:47.:20:51.

Resolution Foundation think-tank. I will talk to you a minute or two

:20:51.:20:55.

before we have the discussion. The Government would guarantee everyone

:20:55.:20:59.

a job. How would they do that? were doing that before the last

:20:59.:21:03.

election. So when you get to, the ideal scheme would be after a year

:21:03.:21:07.

if you haven't found a job, would you get one from a local authority

:21:07.:21:10.

or charity, but you would have to take it. Job seekers' allowance

:21:10.:21:14.

would be limited to one year, after that you get a proper minimum wage

:21:14.:21:18.

job, that is more likely to get you there. But the state pays for that?

:21:18.:21:23.

It doesn't cost that much. There are 2.5 million people unemployed,

:21:23.:21:28.

the state would employ every one of them? 85% of people find employment

:21:28.:21:32.

for a year, at the moment we pay for them to stay on benefits for a

:21:32.:21:37.

long time. By having that you save lots of money because people

:21:37.:21:40.

cheating the system come off the benefit, if you are a taxi driver

:21:40.:21:43.

claiming and working you have to give up your benefit, because

:21:43.:21:47.

people say here is a job you can't continue with the other job. It is

:21:47.:21:50.

fairer to people, it creates a proper way for them to get a

:21:50.:21:54.

minimum wage and get a proper skill and job. You have costed that?

:21:54.:21:58.

did it in Government and the Tories abolished it. You didn't guarantee

:21:58.:22:02.

everyone a job, there were over two million unemployed by the time you

:22:02.:22:07.

left office. We said we would guarantee a job for anyone who

:22:07.:22:12.

couldn't find one under their own scheme. Other place who is do it is

:22:12.:22:17.

not massively expensive, it plaix the welfare state tougher but

:22:17.:22:20.

fairer. You are saying we should have zero unemployment? Nobody

:22:20.:22:23.

should be out of work for more than a year, it is a real protection.

:22:23.:22:27.

I'm saying in the film we need to look at what people are frightened

:22:27.:22:31.

of and genuinely protect them. At the moment we give them a bit of

:22:31.:22:36.

money and it doesn't take the fear away. You particularly dislike

:22:36.:22:40.

various targeted benefit, you mentioned free bus travel, free

:22:41.:22:44.

television licenses for older people and one or two other things,

:22:44.:22:50.

higher rate tax relief on pension contributions and so on. How much

:22:50.:22:55.

would getting rid of all of those save? Billions. The things we

:22:55.:23:00.

mention, �30 billion depending on getting rid of them or targeting

:23:00.:23:03.

them. I'm saying the goi., no Government ever really since

:23:03.:23:08.

Beveridge asked what do we want to do with the system. Let me finish

:23:08.:23:12.

the point. You look at where to save money and add incrementally on

:23:12.:23:16.

the welfare state. Start with a clean state, what are the things we

:23:16.:23:19.

want to do and get rid of the things we can't afford. Much better

:23:20.:23:23.

to have a job guarantee and free childcare, if that means we can't

:23:23.:23:26.

afford some other things, fine, that doesn't necessarily mean

:23:26.:23:31.

having higher taxes. If you want much more protections you have to

:23:31.:23:33.

be tougher. The reason I don't think they are worth keeping, some

:23:33.:23:36.

of them, you are taking money away from people in taxes, and then

:23:36.:23:40.

giving it back in benefit, you would bind people in by giving them

:23:40.:23:43.

real protection that is they would know it is worth paying their taxes

:23:43.:23:48.

for. Let's explore all of these ideas, he sounds like a Tory in

:23:48.:23:51.

some respects? I don't think he is, he started his film saying I want

:23:51.:23:56.

to help people to love the welfare state. You don't, you hate it?

:23:56.:24:01.

is wrong with it? We want to help people to love working and get

:24:01.:24:04.

people back into work. He says he will do that? We want to make

:24:04.:24:07.

people capable so they don't have to rely on the Government to bail

:24:07.:24:10.

them out. That should be the aim of what things we are doing, like the

:24:11.:24:14.

work programme, the Universal Creditor, to give people that

:24:14.:24:18.

capability to make their own decisions. And the idea that the

:24:18.:24:22.

Government is going to recreate Beveridge, and have a whole new

:24:22.:24:25.

insurance scheme provided by the Government, strikes me as

:24:25.:24:28.

unworkable. Explain to her why it might work? Your Government is

:24:28.:24:31.

continuing something which we have done in this area, we are bring

:24:31.:24:34.

anything a company pension for everyone, Nest from every year,

:24:34.:24:37.

that will organise a pension for five to ten million people,

:24:37.:24:40.

delivered by the private sector but organised by the state. That is a

:24:40.:24:44.

big extension in the welfare state, your Government is continuing it.

:24:44.:24:47.

It is different when it is delivered by the private sector.

:24:47.:24:50.

The NHS is delivered by the state and more efficient than privately.

:24:50.:24:53.

The problem with social insurance is the people who need it can't

:24:53.:24:56.

afford to pay for it, because the insurance companies don't want to

:24:56.:25:00.

protect them, the people who don't need it don't pay for it. By

:25:00.:25:05.

pooling our risk together we can protect ourselves better. Do you

:25:05.:25:10.

think the proposal, as outlined by James Purnell is fair? I want to

:25:10.:25:16.

take issue with a central premise that seems to underpin the

:25:16.:25:22.

proposals, that people love the NHS because they get out what they put

:25:22.:25:25.

in. People love the NHS because it comes to their rescue when they get

:25:25.:25:30.

ill, what they get out is based on how ill they are, not at all how

:25:30.:25:34.

much they have contributed. So there seems to be two ideas mixed

:25:34.:25:39.

up, one about contribution. Don't explain to me, but him? One about

:25:39.:25:41.

contribution, and one about providing a smaller number of

:25:41.:25:46.

benefits but making them richer and deeper. They seem to be at odds to

:25:47.:25:50.

me. I totally agree there is two different ideas. One is that we

:25:50.:25:55.

would make people love the welfare state because it really proed them

:25:55.:26:00.

so it was there when - protected them when they needed it, like the

:26:00.:26:04.

NHS, extending to long-term care, child cautious and how you pay for

:26:04.:26:09.

it. We don't - childcare and also how you pay for it all. We don't

:26:09.:26:14.

say to people who smoke we won't cure your cancer, but if someone

:26:14.:26:17.

has worked hard and saved more we want them to get more out of the

:26:17.:26:21.

system. A lot of women take time out of work, a lot of people with

:26:21.:26:25.

long-term health conditions fall in and out of work, they are not

:26:25.:26:31.

irresponsible because that is, it is a luck question, fate deals them

:26:31.:26:35.

card. It is not a hypothetical question, I brought in a reform

:26:35.:26:39.

that women who stay at home you pay their National Insurance

:26:39.:26:42.

contribution, and the same with disabled people, if you are

:26:42.:26:48.

contributinging to society and you are disabled we pay your National

:26:48.:26:51.

Insurance contribution. Won't it increase cost, some of the things

:26:51.:26:55.

you mentioned like the TV license, that would save half a billion, if

:26:55.:26:58.

you compare the cost of providing universal childcare, that is

:26:58.:27:02.

estimated to be �20 billion, that would be an extra 2p on income tax,

:27:02.:27:07.

we are talking about a huge increase in taxation to pay for

:27:07.:27:11.

these universal benefits, people already feel they are paying too

:27:11.:27:15.

much, they are paying �3,000 on average for welfare payment t will

:27:15.:27:19.

increase the cost hugely. Child benefit, for example, is �12

:27:19.:27:24.

billion, more money you can get from that. You would abolish it.

:27:24.:27:32.

The tax relief people get on higher rate tax contributions, �7 billion,

:27:32.:27:37.

there are �30 billion of middle- class benefits found by you. We

:27:37.:27:40.

never get into the discussion about the kind of welfare state we want,

:27:40.:27:43.

the only amount we can allocate is the little bit of savings. We

:27:43.:27:48.

should start with a clean sheet of paper and ask what do we want it to

:27:48.:27:52.

look like. What is the welfare state for? To protect people.

:27:52.:27:58.

they lose their job? Yes. From poverty in old age. What else?

:27:58.:28:02.

Beveridge had his five evils to be protected from, they are still

:28:02.:28:05.

pretty good. At the moment we don't. Before the credit crunch we had

:28:05.:28:09.

gone to the idea that everybody would look after themselves and

:28:09.:28:12.

markets would always work, it wasn't true. We need to protect

:28:12.:28:15.

people against the things they are really scared about, losing their

:28:15.:28:19.

home, their job, being ill for a long time in old age f there are

:28:19.:28:22.

other benefit that is people don't value as much, I would put them

:28:22.:28:27.

down the list of priorities. I'm not saying get rid of child benefit,

:28:27.:28:30.

let's order the things we worry about. What do we care least about

:28:30.:28:34.

that we currently pay? Winter fuel allowances. You wouldn't say that

:28:34.:28:38.

if you were an old person who wouldn't afford their fuel bill?

:28:38.:28:41.

talk today a lot of people about free bus pass, saying I should get

:28:41.:28:48.

it when I'm 70 or 80. It is better to have one pension rather than all

:28:48.:28:51.

the freebies. Would you be prepared to see something like child poverty

:28:51.:28:55.

rise if you were redirecting your spending towards richer protection

:28:55.:28:58.

that is are more universal around childcare and a job guarantee,

:28:58.:29:03.

something has to give. If the pie is limited, if you are not going to

:29:03.:29:09.

poke tus on child poverty, which was overly focused on - focus on

:29:09.:29:16.

child poverty which was overly focused on the last Government,

:29:16.:29:21.

what about child poverty. You end up rewarding people doing the wrong

:29:21.:29:24.

thing and punishing those doing the right thing, giving them money

:29:24.:29:28.

whether they are work organise not or not working or not. We should

:29:28.:29:31.

have a child poverty goal, if you are working and your child won't be

:29:31.:29:37.

poor, if your child is young your child be poor. This lifting the

:29:37.:29:42.

child out of poverty regardless of what parents do, encourages

:29:42.:29:46.

behaviour of parents, not going out to work, which ends up penalising

:29:46.:29:50.

the child. I would reframe the child poverty goals. What we are

:29:50.:29:55.

talking about is giving childcare to very rich people, and at the

:29:55.:29:58.

same time cutting child benefit. do that for primary schools,

:29:58.:30:02.

secondary schools, if you say to mums would you rather have good

:30:02.:30:06.

free childcare can he start or child benefit all the way through,

:30:06.:30:10.

most would like free childcare at the beginning. As you are here I

:30:10.:30:13.

would like to ask you a couple of other questions, notably about your

:30:13.:30:17.

leader at present, Ed Miliband, your leader of your former party,

:30:17.:30:21.

you are still a member. He is my leader. Does he buy any of these

:30:21.:30:26.

ideas? He's interested in the idea of contribution. He made a speech

:30:26.:30:29.

recently about responsibility where he spoke about some of it. It is

:30:29.:30:32.

early days for the Labour Party. you look at him in opposition, and

:30:32.:30:36.

you look at where you were as an elected MP, you don't think with

:30:36.:30:39.

all these ideas it would be fun to get back into mainstream politics

:30:39.:30:43.

and try to put them into effect? You can do lots of politics outside

:30:43.:30:47.

parliament, that is what I'm doing. You have no desire to go back into

:30:47.:30:50.

parliament? One thing about Ed, before the recent News

:30:50.:30:53.

International spat, there was a real danger that people were

:30:53.:30:56.

writing him off as not having a chance, the election was being

:30:56.:30:59.

fought through the press in advance of that, people should go treating

:30:59.:31:03.

him as someone who has a good chance of being the next Prime

:31:03.:31:08.

Minister. Why did you turn down the opportunity for being his Chief-of-

:31:08.:31:11.

Staff? Because I had left politics two weeks previously and it would

:31:11.:31:15.

be odd to go back. He has good ideas on responsibility, and

:31:15.:31:19.

interested in the ideas on contribution. Compared to 1994, it

:31:20.:31:24.

is a much more complicated task. When Gordon and Tony and Peter went

:31:24.:31:28.

in, it was clear what not to do, it was 15 years of wrong answers, Ed

:31:28.:31:33.

and his team have to think it over from scratch, he's taking steps

:31:33.:31:38.

before that. You have ruled out the idea of joining his crusade as an

:31:38.:31:42.

elected MP? I'm a big part of his crusade without being an elected MP.

:31:42.:31:46.

Around one in ten of academic research programmes on monkeys in

:31:46.:31:53.

the UK produces no clear scientific, medical or social benefit, that is

:31:53.:31:59.

how much of the news media reported the results of a highly respective

:31:59.:32:03.

research today. One could say it vindicates nine out of ten

:32:03.:32:08.

experiments. Animal rights activists say none at all can be

:32:08.:32:14.

justified. How do you side what is legitimate and not. Meet chimp nine,

:32:14.:32:18.

we gave him a gene therapy that allows the brain to create its own

:32:18.:32:24.

cells in order to repair itself. We call it the cure to Alzheimer's.

:32:24.:32:28.

is a Hollywood interpretation, and pretty far from reality,

:32:28.:32:34.

nevertheless, rise of the planet - Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes,

:32:34.:32:37.

explores a long standing relationship with other primate,

:32:37.:32:43.

not least as subjects of research. In the US scientists still use

:32:43.:32:50.

chimps in research, it is banned in the UK. Every year some 3,000 or so

:32:50.:32:54.

monkeys are still used. The organisations that fund this kind

:32:54.:32:58.

of research commissioned today's review. Which looks back over the

:32:59.:33:03.

last ten years, specifically at research in acedemia, rather than

:33:03.:33:09.

in industry. The review was led by Professor Sir Patrick Bateson,

:33:10.:33:13.

President of the Zoological Society of London. Who said while the

:33:13.:33:18.

subject is largely controversial and raises strong emotions, an all-

:33:18.:33:22.

or-nothing approach to research on non-human primates would have been

:33:22.:33:27.

stupid. We do reckon research on non-human primates should continue,

:33:27.:33:32.

but subject to stringent safeguards and it should involve not only an

:33:32.:33:34.

assessment of the quality of the science, but also whether or not

:33:34.:33:38.

the animals are going to suffer, at all, and whether there is likely to

:33:38.:33:42.

be medical benefit or public good benefit. What they found was that

:33:42.:33:46.

much of the research was outstanding in quality. In its care

:33:46.:33:50.

for animals and in its likely benefits to medicine, but not all

:33:50.:33:54.

of it. The thought behind this review is that scientists

:33:54.:33:58.

conducting research on primates have an almost unwritten contract

:33:58.:34:04.

with the public, that re that research should have a tangible

:34:04.:34:08.

medical benefit. The panel was concerned about approximately 9% of

:34:08.:34:12.

research programmes from which no clear scientific, medical or social

:34:12.:34:17.

benefit had emerged. Panel member, Mark Prescott, works for the

:34:17.:34:23.

National Centre for The Final Testament Of The Holy Bible, an

:34:23.:34:33.
:34:33.:34:37.

The 9% yielded no fine bet at all. Any exploration in any scientific -

:34:37.:34:43.

no benefit at all. Any exploration in any scientific research

:34:43.:34:47.

discovers what you are expected recover. If 9% was not up to

:34:47.:34:54.

scratch, it implies 91% was. A department in king college London

:34:54.:34:58.

heads up research, and it is said that some studies have no

:34:58.:35:02.

alternatives and may take many years to show benefits. I have just

:35:02.:35:08.

come back from a meeting in Florence about the International

:35:08.:35:13.

Brain Research Authority, I saw a video of a monkey with a robotic

:35:13.:35:19.

arm directing the arm by his thoughts. Scientists are now using

:35:19.:35:22.

implants of electrodes in the brains of people without the use of

:35:22.:35:26.

arms and legs to give them movement and perhaps one day getting them

:35:26.:35:31.

walking. We scientists are very reluctant to do work on primates,

:35:31.:35:35.

except where we need to, if the justification is not there, it

:35:35.:35:39.

should not be done. The panel made 15 recommendations,

:35:39.:35:44.

among them, that scientists seeking funding for primate testing should

:35:44.:35:49.

show they have considered alternatives such as studying cells

:35:49.:35:53.

or computer simulations, and whether in some cases humans could

:35:53.:35:57.

be used in research instead. Those using primates should publish

:35:57.:36:00.

negative results to prevent the repeating of unnecessary work.

:36:00.:36:04.

Those funding and carrying out the work should state clearly when they

:36:04.:36:09.

expect a medical benefit. The panel says it is not ruling out research

:36:09.:36:14.

with no obvious medical benefit, they say superlative science should

:36:14.:36:18.

still go ahead the, but the scientists need to be clearer about

:36:18.:36:25.

why they want to do research and careful not to hype the potential.

:36:25.:36:28.

Organisations campaigning for an outright ban on all primate

:36:28.:36:32.

research, say the report was written for those who fund the work,

:36:32.:36:36.

and scientists who have a vested interest in keeping it, but still

:36:36.:36:40.

proved a chilling insight. This report is anything but good news,

:36:40.:36:43.

it is illustrating the use of primates, as far as we are

:36:43.:36:48.

concerned, is failing as a model, we want to see modern humane

:36:48.:36:52.

research techniques that moves away from the use of primate, let's look

:36:52.:36:55.

at the recommendations. 25 years after we had a law on research in

:36:55.:37:00.

this country, we are still having to say to researchers, please only

:37:00.:37:03.

use primates where it is absolutely necessary, don't use them where

:37:03.:37:08.

there is an alternative. That is already the law. In recent weeks we

:37:08.:37:17.

have seen a monkey creating a tool to deal with his toenails and

:37:17.:37:24.

another monkey taking a photograph of him selves, the discussion about

:37:24.:37:30.

whether or not toe use primates for human benefit is far from over.

:37:30.:37:37.

My guests are we with me now, the Professor who has used monkeys in

:37:37.:37:42.

research for Parkinson disease. And Professor Paul Matthews, a panel

:37:42.:37:49.

member of today's Bates report, and a specialist in human brain images.

:37:49.:37:52.

- brain imaging. The interesting question here is

:37:52.:37:57.

how could you get, given the sensitivities in this area, from

:37:57.:38:03.

91% to 100%, which is where it ought to be? That would be

:38:03.:38:07.

preaching an impossibility. We're scientists because we are exploring

:38:07.:38:13.

the unknown. Therefore, there will always be projects that may not

:38:13.:38:17.

reach the conclusion that they wanted. From your perspective, can

:38:17.:38:22.

we ever get to 100%? It is a very important question. I think the

:38:22.:38:27.

first thing that is important to point out is this was a

:38:27.:38:31.

retrospective review, with observations going back as far as

:38:31.:38:35.

1997. A number of processes have been put into place, since then,

:38:35.:38:40.

following the Weatherall report five years ago, which have

:38:40.:38:46.

substantially changed the standard of proof that is needed, of the

:38:46.:38:50.

need for scientific research in primates, and more over for

:38:50.:38:56.

painting the trail between research and outcome. So can we move closer

:38:56.:39:01.

to 100%. I think the committee felt that we must rigorously try to do

:39:01.:39:10.

so. Important ideas that came forward were to help provide the

:39:10.:39:15.

infrastructure for academic scientists, to be able to more

:39:15.:39:19.

effectively translate their work into a medical or other broad

:39:19.:39:25.

social environment. Now, you say there is always going to be a

:39:25.:39:30.

percentage that you don't know how they are going to turn out. Is that

:39:30.:39:34.

desirable thing in itself, or just the natural consequence of the way

:39:34.:39:38.

that science operates? It is a natural consequence of science.

:39:38.:39:42.

Because if we knew all the answers we wouldn't be doing the

:39:42.:39:49.

experiments, and sometimes. Is it possible some could subsequently be

:39:49.:39:56.

vindicated? Yes, as that chap just said on your programme, that

:39:56.:40:02.

studying how the monkey controls a movement of an extraneous device by

:40:02.:40:08.

thinking about it, is possibly, after 20 years, conceptually a

:40:08.:40:10.

clinical possibility. You don't seem necessarily to admit, that you

:40:10.:40:15.

say at one point in this report, the panels' assessment of medical

:40:15.:40:20.

and other benefits were made with difficulty, and could often be no

:40:20.:40:24.

more than informed guesses. Is that adequate? That is a statement of

:40:24.:40:28.

the information that was available on many of the studies. Now there

:40:28.:40:30.

were some outstanding example where is the translation was very clear.

:40:30.:40:35.

There were many example where is the translation needed, or the

:40:35.:40:39.

translatability needed to be inferred. This gets back to the

:40:39.:40:43.

recommendation that scientist, and the funding agencies, be helped to

:40:43.:40:47.

establish the infrastructure, to make the scientific information

:40:47.:40:50.

available from these studies, rapidly moving to the important

:40:50.:40:56.

impact that is are needed. There is one other point, that perhaps comes,

:40:56.:41:04.

and is important to bear in mind. Negative results are not results of

:41:04.:41:10.

no value. If a question is...They Are results of no value if no-one

:41:10.:41:13.

knows about them? That is the key point. That was the most

:41:13.:41:18.

disappointing and disturbing thing about that 9%, that was the 9% were

:41:18.:41:23.

studies for which there had not been an outcome that had appeared,

:41:23.:41:28.

positive or negative, and this is what the committee felt very

:41:28.:41:31.

strongly needed to be part of the change that we helped to drive

:41:32.:41:36.

forward from now on. What you are saying is if you don't get the

:41:36.:41:41.

result that you are looking for or consider any use, you should

:41:41.:41:45.

publish it so others know? If you ask a good question a positive

:41:45.:41:50.

result is of value, and a negative result is of value. Why doesn't

:41:50.:41:55.

that happen now? For several reasons, if one achieves a negative

:41:55.:41:59.

result very few journals will publish it. Surely on the web

:41:59.:42:03.

anyone can publish anything? Yes, but perhaps not in the most

:42:04.:42:08.

respected journals, one that would bring impact or cite your work. The

:42:08.:42:14.

other thing is publishing negative work also distracts from your

:42:14.:42:19.

chances of getting further research funding. If you admit it didn't

:42:19.:42:24.

work out, you might not get funded to do it again? Not the same

:42:24.:42:28.

experiment again but further research. That is nuts isn't it?

:42:28.:42:34.

think you have expressed a very common view. But I think that if,

:42:34.:42:40.

again, let me go back to the point, that for good scientist, for

:42:40.:42:44.

excellent scientists, who ask cheer questions for which positive and

:42:44.:42:49.

negative results are equally valuable, achieving a negative

:42:49.:42:53.

result need not mean that further funding is not necessary. It is

:42:53.:42:57.

also true, as you know in the context of human clinical trials,

:42:57.:43:01.

that there are mechanisms by which negative results can be published

:43:01.:43:07.

to provide a record for the community, so that no-one else

:43:07.:43:12.

tries to do the same experiment. That would be the good thing?

:43:12.:43:17.

agree, nowadays on the web it is much more possible than in the past.

:43:17.:43:23.

Just on the broader point, the report recommends that as much as

:43:23.:43:26.

possible there should be further research into other ways of

:43:26.:43:31.

conducting experiments than on non- human primates. Why is it that we

:43:31.:43:35.

are so sensitive about experiments upon these, research with these

:43:36.:43:42.

kinds of animals as opposed to mice or rats or anything else.

:43:42.:43:46.

I guess people feel it is a humanisation is easier with a

:43:46.:43:51.

primate. Because they look like us? Vaguely,

:43:51.:43:56.

and afterall we are primates too. So I guess people...As A scientist

:43:56.:44:03.

does it make sense to you? No. not? Because there are certain

:44:03.:44:09.

disease that is you cannot study to the same effect in non-human

:44:09.:44:18.

primates. Certainly my research over the last 20 years on

:44:18.:44:23.

Parkinson's diseases, that work evolved from that work would not be

:44:23.:44:28.

used if I did the work on rats, they are wired differently, they

:44:28.:44:35.

have four legs rather than an arms and leg, if I wanted to look at

:44:35.:44:39.

that treatment I need to look at a close model.

:44:39.:44:49.
:44:49.:45:07.

The front pages, Tom Daley diving Lots of BBC people at the year to

:45:07.:45:11.

the Olympics and the cost of keeping those very attractive Civil

:45:11.:45:16.

Service pensions have gone up by 3,000 a year. The police are

:45:16.:45:21.

looking into Harvey Weinstein's death, according to the Mirror, and

:45:21.:45:27.

the Independent has news of rationing within the NHS.

:45:27.:45:35.

Now on tomorrow's programme, we look at why America's economic

:45:35.:45:39.

recovery has stalled. The new Mrs Miliband is looking forward to a

:45:39.:45:43.

decent night's sleep soon, her husband had an operation on his

:45:43.:45:48.

nose to correct his sleep apnia, he didn't do it to improve his voice.

:45:48.:45:53.

If the operation has worked and he no longer snores, he is leaving

:45:53.:46:00.

some politically very powerful company, we leave you with

:46:00.:46:04.

distinguished snorers! Goodnight.

:46:04.:46:14.
:46:14.:46:41.

Getting the detail right over the next few days will not be easy, the

:46:41.:46:44.

bottom line is many of us will stay dry, despite the fact we have rain

:46:45.:46:48.

on the chart, early on Thursday, crossing out of Scotland, into the

:46:48.:46:51.

far North West of England and Wales. It is fragmenting all the while.

:46:51.:46:55.

Just dribs and drabs left by the afternoon, across parts of northern

:46:55.:46:59.

England. The south of that, the Midlands looks like a fine day.

:46:59.:47:03.

Eastern England compared to Wednesday, warmer, 25 degrees in

:47:03.:47:06.

London, very nice indeed. Across the south west some increase in

:47:06.:47:10.

cloud, maybe the odd spot of drizzle, that will be it. You might

:47:10.:47:13.

hang on to brightness, Wales too, that weather front will bring an

:47:13.:47:17.

increase in cloud, and the odd spot of rain. Some brightness possible

:47:18.:47:21.

in one or two places. For Northern Ireland after a wet night in some

:47:21.:47:24.

place, things brightening up through the course of the day,

:47:24.:47:28.

temperatures not as high as they were on Wednesday, pleasant in the

:47:28.:47:31.

sunshine. That goes for the Highlands in Scotland, reaching 25

:47:31.:47:35.

today, not as warm tomorrow, dry with brightness. Improving stories

:47:35.:47:40.

as we end the week across northern parts of the UK, the sunshine

:47:40.:47:44.

returning by Friday, pleasant with light winds, simply ayes cross the

:47:44.:47:51.

south. Patchy cloud, sun shy, light wind. - sunshine, light winds.

:47:51.:47:54.

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