03/08/2011 Newsnight


03/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Tonight, so was it just News International that was at it? A

:00:10.:00:14.

Newsnight investigation uncovers new allegations of phone hacking at

:00:14.:00:21.

the Mirror Group. Mills, the former wife of Sir Paul McCarthy tells us

:00:21.:00:25.

a senior Mirror Group journalist admitted a phone hacking from a

:00:25.:00:35.

A former Mirror journalist, and an MP on the Culture Committee tell us

:00:35.:00:39.

how much further this could spread. Deposed President Mubarak on trial

:00:39.:00:43.

and on a stretcher, and as we find out, punishing their ailing

:00:43.:00:47.

President is about the only thing Egypt's aspiring politicians can

:00:47.:00:51.

agree on. The political forces that combined

:00:51.:00:55.

to oust President Mubarak are now turning against each other.

:00:55.:00:59.

I will be examining whether Egypt's revolution has derailed.

:00:59.:01:03.

Mouch money have you lost in the recession, exclusive Newsnight

:01:03.:01:10.

research puts a figure on how hard your pay packet has been hit.

:01:10.:01:17.

Coming up later on tonight's show, a special report on...a special

:01:17.:01:23.

report on... I had it a minute ago. And as the world's experts on

:01:23.:01:27.

memory gather in Britain what do we really know about it. And unlike

:01:27.:01:37.
:01:37.:01:38.

Steve, one man who never forgets it here to be tested.

:01:38.:01:42.

From the very start it has been likely that a phone hacking scandal

:01:42.:01:46.

involved not just one reporter or one newspaper, or even one

:01:46.:01:51.

newspaper group, tonight Newsnight has new allegations involving

:01:51.:01:56.

Mirror Group newspapers, and the former wife of Beatle, Sir Paul

:01:56.:01:59.

McCarthy. Heather Mills claims a senior journalist there admitted to

:01:59.:02:04.

her in 2001 her phone had been hacked. She told us the name of the

:02:04.:02:14.
:02:14.:02:15.

journalist, but for legal reasons You have no new message and no

:02:15.:02:19.

saved messages. After permeating News International,

:02:19.:02:23.

the phone hacking scandal seeps into the heart of the Mirror Group.

:02:23.:02:27.

Evidence provided to us by Heather Mills suggests at least one senior

:02:27.:02:31.

journalist was harvesting personal messages with a view to making the

:02:31.:02:34.

front page. Their turbulent love affair made for highly prized copy

:02:34.:02:38.

for the tabloids. But Heather Mills says after a row in early 2001, she

:02:38.:02:43.

left the UK on a trip to India. She says that Paul McCarthy left a

:02:43.:02:48.

series of highly sensitive messages on her voicemail to would her back.

:02:48.:02:54.

Shortly afterwards she received a phone call from a senior Mirror

:02:54.:03:04.
:03:04.:03:42.

There has been much speculation about what Piers Morgan knew or

:03:42.:03:45.

didn't know at the time about hacking. He was a senior Mirror

:03:45.:03:49.

Group editor. But he was not the person who rang Mills. But his own

:03:49.:03:53.

omission n a newspaper article, he had listened to one of Heather's

:03:53.:04:03.
:04:03.:04:19.

He wrote in a 2006 article in the Piers Morgan was editor in chief at

:04:19.:04:21.

the Mirror at the time when Heather Mills says her phone was hacked.

:04:21.:04:26.

Yet on the face of it in that 2006 Mail article, he appears to have

:04:26.:04:30.

admitted to listening to one of her private messages. He has always

:04:30.:04:33.

denied knowledge of phone hacking. Tonight he has raised questions

:04:33.:04:36.

about the credibility of Heather Mills, and once again, denied

:04:36.:04:41.

knowledge of hacking. In statement he said Heather

:04:41.:04:44.

Mills's claims are unsubstantiated, and that a High Court judge had

:04:45.:04:49.

described her as a less than candid witness. Some of his former

:04:49.:04:52.

colleagues believe hacking was widespread. He said I have never

:04:52.:04:57.

hacked a phone. I believe that. That's perfectly plausible. He said

:04:57.:05:03.

he had never asked anyone to hack a phone, that is possible as well.

:05:03.:05:09.

But what wasn't possible is the third thing, that he never

:05:09.:05:14.

published a story on a phone hack, on any of the papers he has edited.

:05:14.:05:24.
:05:24.:05:35.

Newsnight has been told that seven individuals are consulting lawyers

:05:35.:05:40.

about taking legal action against the Mirror Group about hacking.

:05:40.:05:45.

Former England manager, Sven-Goran Eriksson, is one, today we spoke to

:05:45.:05:55.
:05:55.:06:11.

his-partner, who believes their So how much hacking did go on at

:06:11.:06:16.

heightles owned by Trinity mirror. One of Piers Morgan aers fiercest

:06:16.:06:20.

critic, jailed for share ramping, said he would have plenty to say

:06:20.:06:25.

about it. We would have a lively debate about some of the stories he

:06:25.:06:29.

had published whilst he was there. That we would talk about some phone

:06:29.:06:34.

hacking, and I might be able to point to a few stories that he

:06:34.:06:37.

published whilst he was the editor of the paper that came from phone

:06:37.:06:40.

hacks. Arriving for his show tonight in

:06:40.:06:44.

Los Angeles, Piers Morgan had little to say. I have actually made

:06:44.:06:47.

a statement, I'm not going to add anything further to that. Thank you

:06:47.:06:57.
:06:57.:07:01.

very much. Pressure on him and Trinity mirror is growing tonight.

:07:01.:07:05.

We have more extraordinary detail from Piers Morgan. He has been in a

:07:05.:07:09.

position where he has to give more detail. He says he has no knowledge

:07:09.:07:13.

of any executive from any other newspapers that Trinity newspapers

:07:13.:07:20.

may or may not have with Mills. Goes on to attack Heather Mills's

:07:20.:07:26.

credibility. He says he has knowledge of that Sir Paul McCarthy

:07:26.:07:31.

says that Heather Mills illegally accessed his phone messages and

:07:31.:07:35.

released those details. He then goes on to quote the judge in the

:07:35.:07:37.

divorce case, saying that Heather Mills was inconsistent and

:07:37.:07:42.

inaccurate in some of her evidence, and a less than impressive witness.

:07:42.:07:46.

But despite all of this, the question that remains tonight,

:07:46.:07:50.

which he hasn't addressed yet, is why did he write in 2006, this line

:07:50.:07:55.

about at one stage he was played a tape of a message that Paul had

:07:55.:08:00.

left for Heather on a phone. He hasn't addressed that specifically

:08:00.:08:03.

at all. He reiterates he has never hacked a phone, told anyone to hack

:08:03.:08:09.

a phone, nor, to his knowledge, published any story obtained from a

:08:09.:08:14.

phone haging. Another thing, Trinity Mirror Group said that all

:08:14.:08:17.

the journalists work within the law and the Code of Conduct. I'm joined

:08:17.:08:21.

by the Conservative MP, Therese Coffey, from the Culture Committee,

:08:21.:08:24.

investigating phone hacking, and Wensley Clarkson, a journalist

:08:24.:08:28.

formally at the Mirror and other papers, not at the time we were

:08:28.:08:30.

talking about. What do you make of the

:08:30.:08:34.

allegations? I find them very have strong in terms of Heather Mills

:08:34.:08:37.

has made these, although her credibility is attacked and has

:08:38.:08:42.

been in the past, there is no doubt she feels very much her privacy has

:08:42.:08:45.

been infringed. I'm sure everybody wishes she would have gone to the

:08:45.:08:48.

police earlier with this matter, rather than just left it at the

:08:48.:08:52.

time. The significance of this is that you and other members of the

:08:52.:08:57.

committee have always thought it wasn't one journalist or one paper,

:08:57.:09:01.

it wasn't one newspaper group this appears to back up those suspicions,

:09:01.:09:04.

at least? I'm not the only member of the committee who has made those

:09:04.:09:08.

suggestions in the past. The information commission's report

:09:08.:09:11.

from 2006 gave credibility to that. I just hope the police take the

:09:11.:09:17.

evidence and go with it, and if Mr Morgan wapbs to come back to the UK

:09:17.:09:21.

and help them with their inquiry, I don't mean being arrested or

:09:21.:09:26.

anything, I'm sure he can add light to the article he wrote in 2006.

:09:26.:09:29.

would be a good idea for him to come back and help the police?

:09:29.:09:33.

think it is, there is no point in him necessarily saying in the UK

:09:33.:09:36.

and issuing statement. It would help him, including himself and

:09:36.:09:40.

this investigation, if he was able to say more about why he wrote what

:09:40.:09:45.

he did in 2006. Does this strike you as credible? It probably is

:09:45.:09:49.

credible. There is a huge issue here, where do you draw the line.

:09:49.:09:53.

We're now on Heather Mills tonight, saying this, no doubt there will be

:09:53.:09:56.

somebody else next week. It is a shame that Heather Mills herself is

:09:56.:10:02.

not perhaps the most credible person in the world. No doubt Piers

:10:02.:10:05.

Morgan will feel that as well. He has already said that. I would

:10:05.:10:11.

point out she has had battles with the Mirror and Piers Morgan. It is

:10:11.:10:16.

a bit he said she said in that situation? The bigger issue is more

:10:16.:10:20.

important, that is where do you draw the line. For example, hacking

:10:20.:10:25.

is something that newspapers learned from Private Eyes, Private

:10:25.:10:31.

Eyes are hired and - private ayes have been hired in the past by

:10:31.:10:35.

television stations, newspapers, magazines, and were until recently

:10:35.:10:38.

used for documentaries. I recognised the voice of a private

:10:38.:10:42.

eye in the background on a documentary I watched own the BBC

:10:42.:10:47.

the other day. I have to open this, if we go after other newspapers we

:10:47.:10:51.

will have to go after them. We will have to go after David Cameron

:10:51.:10:57.

himself, who got Andy Coulson wo vet bid the Security Services, who

:10:57.:11:01.

used a freelanceer to do the vetting, he was a private

:11:02.:11:05.

investigator who would have used hacking in the past. Where do you

:11:05.:11:14.

draw the line. You draw it at legality. Then we have to go after

:11:14.:11:17.

everybody. What do you make of the point that Piers Morgan is very

:11:17.:11:21.

detailed, legalistic, it talk about the various things with the court

:11:21.:11:25.

cases. It does not redress the fact that he was writinging about this

:11:25.:11:30.

heart-breaking phone call that he apparently heard - writing about

:11:30.:11:33.

this heart-breaking phone call that he apparently heard and didn't

:11:33.:11:38.

report it at all. I guess Piers Morgan is there to be shot down,

:11:38.:11:42.

because he's a world famous personality which he hasn't back

:11:42.:11:45.

then. I would imagine every editor, I didn't work at the Mirror at that

:11:45.:11:49.

time, I must make that point, would be worried what was done in their

:11:49.:11:52.

name, whether they were aware or not is almost irrelevant, as we

:11:52.:11:56.

discovered from the fate of Rebekah Brooks. That is a fact. I will also

:11:56.:12:01.

say here and now, I'm absolutely certain not one newspaper in Fleet

:12:01.:12:04.

Street has employed these tactics for quite a number of years now,

:12:04.:12:08.

this isn't something that has suddenly happened overnight. Where

:12:08.:12:13.

do you draw the line? The grounds of illegality. Of course

:12:13.:12:16.

journalists have often used sources to break stories in the public

:12:16.:12:20.

interest. The Telegraph paid money for a disc about the expenses

:12:20.:12:23.

information, actually that was in the public interest, even though it

:12:23.:12:28.

was embarrassing for MPs, what was the right thing to do. I'm not sure

:12:28.:12:31.

going into the love life between Heather Mills and Paul McCarthy is

:12:31.:12:34.

necessarily in the public interest, it may sell papers. This is about

:12:35.:12:40.

the dark arts, this is the phrase we keep hearing, "the dark arts",

:12:40.:12:43.

that involves private investigators, journalist, and a lot of those

:12:43.:12:46.

security companies that are hired by banks, they are hired by the

:12:46.:12:52.

City, they are hired by the BBC, to investigate people. At the moment,

:12:52.:12:55.

I'm sure, security companies are being used by the BBC and all sorts

:12:55.:13:00.

of major institutions to look into people, using the very dark arts we

:13:00.:13:02.

are talking about. We will leave it there. Thank you

:13:02.:13:06.

very much. Now, for decades Hosni Mubarak was

:13:06.:13:12.

Egypt's king of kings. But today the humiliated and apparently one

:13:12.:13:21.

well former President appeared in court on a stretcher. Agreeing to

:13:21.:13:23.

get Mubarak and punish him has brought the country together. But

:13:23.:13:28.

how does the leading nation in the Arab world cope with the ambitions

:13:28.:13:32.

of nationalists, socialists, Islamists and others, all under the

:13:32.:13:37.

eyes of a powerful military. Mark Urban has returned now from Egypt.

:13:37.:13:41.

What happened today? That image of President Mubarak in the cage, is

:13:41.:13:46.

essentially what happened, along with his two sons and a former

:13:46.:13:50.

Interior Minister. The trial opened. You ask questions about whether

:13:50.:13:54.

there really is a serious dossier of evidence, connecting him and his

:13:54.:13:57.

sons and the minister to the crimes they are accused of. Because we

:13:57.:14:01.

have seen in the Hague, when leadership figures have gone on

:14:01.:14:05.

trial, these things have sometimes taken years to assemble to try to

:14:05.:14:07.

prove the responsibility of individuals for decisions to shoot

:14:07.:14:11.

demonstrator, this kind of thing. Any way, it opened, they were in

:14:11.:14:16.

the cage. The charges were read, of corruption, and of course, of

:14:16.:14:25.

complicity in the killing of demonstrators during the revolution.

:14:25.:14:30.

The TRANSLATION: The intention was to kill the biggest number of

:14:30.:14:33.

protestors possible. TRANSLATION: All the accusations I deny them all.

:14:33.:14:38.

It is a trial, but it is also, quite clearly, a show, isn't it?

:14:38.:14:42.

Absolutely. If one looks at the wider impact, I think it could be

:14:42.:14:47.

enormous, the little guy in the Middle East, seeing one of the

:14:47.:14:51.

region's strongmen brought low, kainled on his bed, sick - caged on

:14:51.:14:55.

his bed, sick. Justice, in that sense, was being done, awakens

:14:55.:14:59.

posbltsd that it might be done in their countries - possiblities that

:14:59.:15:03.

it might be done in their countries. The leaders there, we know there

:15:03.:15:06.

was pressure on the Egyptian council that runs the country from

:15:06.:15:11.

the Arab Emirates not to do this. A lot of them felt President Mubarak

:15:11.:15:14.

gave in too easily any way. It was a very tough decision. Of course,

:15:14.:15:20.

the decision to put him on trial was, in a sense, forced by the

:15:20.:15:24.

violence going Onyango the streets. The military council knew if they

:15:24.:15:27.

didn't there would be more and more trouble. Today outside the

:15:27.:15:30.

courtroom, clashes broke out between supporters of the former

:15:30.:15:35.

President, and pro-democracy activists who supported the trial.

:15:35.:15:38.

There have been running battles of this kind for weeks, with the

:15:38.:15:42.

military edging towards today, as a means of trying to buy people off.

:15:42.:15:45.

The implications of everything you have been saying is that Mubarak is

:15:45.:15:48.

the past, and this is putting a seal on that, but the future and

:15:48.:15:52.

the question of election, that is all very uncertain? That is

:15:52.:15:56.

absolutely right. The point is, in essence, this trial may well now be

:15:56.:16:00.

adjourned, or it could go in fits and starts, it could last a hell of

:16:00.:16:06.

a long time, they have played the military - the card, the military

:16:06.:16:09.

council, in terms of moving the nation forward and bringing it

:16:09.:16:12.

together. We know from all the other street battles, and

:16:12.:16:15.

demonstrations and shows of force I have been witnessing in recent days

:16:16.:16:18.

in Cairo, that the battle for political control of the country,

:16:18.:16:28.
:16:28.:16:54.

once elections are held, has begun Egypt's transformation races on.

:16:54.:17:04.
:17:04.:17:05.

Everyone is jockeying for advantage, and Cairo's streets are the arena.

:17:05.:17:09.

Fridays offer the country's different political forces the

:17:09.:17:12.

chance to mobilise and show how many people they can bring to

:17:12.:17:16.

Tahrir Square. But new tensions have emerged over the institution,

:17:16.:17:23.

timing of elections and the place of Islam in society. Several months

:17:23.:17:27.

after the revolution, some are talking about the need for a second

:17:27.:17:32.

revolution, one thing is clear, that the forces that combine

:17:32.:17:35.

together to topple the former President, Hosni Mubarak, are now

:17:35.:17:45.
:17:45.:17:51.

engaged in an active competition Early morning on the Nile, and the

:17:51.:18:01.
:18:01.:18:03.

city's troubles are a world away. These rowers belong to the Arab

:18:03.:18:06.

constructors club. It is a big building firm that is putting

:18:06.:18:16.
:18:16.:18:18.

something back into the community. Among their first eight are an

:18:18.:18:22.

interior design he, an office manager, and the Cox is a teacher.

:18:22.:18:28.

They think Egypt is on the right course, they are in work, and as

:18:28.:18:33.

their hour's training row end, seem to trust the country's temporary

:18:33.:18:40.

military helmsmen. Is their job a bit like your job in

:18:40.:18:47.

the boat, the cox, to steer Egypt in the right direction. It will be

:18:47.:18:51.

good, we will be stable, after this situation any revolution in the

:18:51.:19:01.
:19:01.:19:05.

world takes more time to be stable. Not everyone shares that confidence.

:19:05.:19:12.

Here a TV show was going out. Among the guests an editor from one of

:19:12.:19:16.

the top pro-democracy parties. They have been casting doubt whether the

:19:16.:19:21.

military council ruling Egypt to election also really hand over

:19:21.:19:24.

power. TRANSLATION: The election process

:19:24.:19:28.

is in danger. Civil society in Egypt is weak. The real threat is

:19:29.:19:32.

not that the military don't want to give up power, but that political

:19:32.:19:35.

parties are so disorganised that the military says it must stay in

:19:35.:19:41.

power. Downing Street about the way ahead

:19:42.:19:47.

lay behind a protestor's decision early in July to reoccupy Tahrir

:19:47.:19:50.

Square. A rainbow coalition of groups came to demand justice for

:19:50.:19:54.

the country's martyrs, and criticise the generals running the

:19:54.:19:58.

country. Some here bother the scars of a

:19:58.:20:03.

March on military headquarters that ended in violence. Among them this

:20:03.:20:08.

man. An unemployed graduate, who believes the military will not

:20:08.:20:15.

allow free elections. TRANSLATION: We don't want elections, because we

:20:15.:20:18.

don't trust the military to run them fairly. None of the demands of

:20:18.:20:22.

the original revolution have been met yet. And the military have no

:20:22.:20:26.

authority. There should be a second revolution, with a broader case

:20:26.:20:35.

base. In this city the Muslim Brotherhood has become adept at

:20:35.:20:41.

judging the mood. Founded 60 years ago, and underground for decade, it

:20:41.:20:45.

decided to get out of the protest camp and condemn those who stayed.

:20:46.:20:52.

To stay in Tahrir Square will create chaos, stopping people going

:20:52.:20:59.

to the famous buildings, marching to the army it causes criticism for

:20:59.:21:07.

it creating chaos in the street, this is dangerous. The Muslim

:21:07.:21:10.

Brotherhood and others left the democracy groups behind in the

:21:10.:21:14.

square. They are now speeding into the future, accepting that the army

:21:14.:21:19.

will bow out, and preparing to win November's elections.

:21:19.:21:23.

Those most friendly to western values meanwhile, are still trying

:21:23.:21:33.
:21:33.:21:35.

to find traction. This event brought the social media

:21:35.:21:41.

glit rattity to a Cairo hotel, TV presenters, corporate sponsors and

:21:41.:21:44.

humam rights activists joined the blogger who calls himself

:21:44.:21:54.
:21:54.:21:57.

Sendmonkey. They wanted to raise money via Twitter for one of

:21:57.:22:00.

Cairo's slums. Like others on this progressive wing of politics, he's

:22:00.:22:03.

already crying foul about the election. In the new election they

:22:03.:22:08.

have stated that there will be no international observers. I'm not

:22:08.:22:16.

saying that they intend to do fraud in the elections, I'm just saying

:22:16.:22:18.

that usually Governments that don't want the election monitored have

:22:18.:22:27.

something to hide. While the Twitterratie debate the

:22:27.:22:30.

timing of elections or rivalries, their relationship with the

:22:30.:22:39.

community they were helping seems to be arm's length.

:22:39.:22:44.

When we went to here, the fundraisers' organisers couldn't

:22:44.:22:51.

come with us or put us in touch with any community workers. More

:22:51.:22:59.

than 600,000 people live here, with few services. Many rely on state-

:22:59.:23:03.

subsidised bread, and times are tough because the economy has

:23:03.:23:06.

stalled since the revolution. But the issue that most concerned the

:23:06.:23:11.

people we spoke to, was the desappearance of the police.

:23:11.:23:16.

- disappearance of the police. They told me the most noticable change

:23:16.:23:26.
:23:26.:23:28.

since the revolution was the slow response time of the police. The

:23:28.:23:34.

Muslim Brotherhood has seen the law and order vacuum as an opportunity

:23:34.:23:43.

to extend its own services. When we see the police going, our system

:23:43.:23:48.

helps people to keep their security in all towns and villages, and even

:23:48.:23:54.

the rate of crimes declined, not rose.

:23:54.:23:59.

The faltering police and faltering economy combined to produce scenes

:23:59.:24:03.

like this, most days in Cairo. Rising prices and unploil

:24:03.:24:07.

employment, key factors in triggering the revolution continue

:24:07.:24:13.

to eat away at social stability. These people are very angry because

:24:13.:24:21.

the boss of their company has sacked 1200 workers and her

:24:21.:24:24.

demonstrating at the gateway to the headquarters of the company. On

:24:24.:24:28.

this same street, if you look down here, there are dozens of

:24:28.:24:33.

ambulances, because the ambulance men are also in dispute with their

:24:33.:24:36.

employers. And at the same time people are coming through the

:24:36.:24:42.

street getting more and more angry, and this is Cairo today.

:24:42.:24:46.

The army looked on, it tries to avoid stepping in to street

:24:46.:24:56.
:24:56.:25:06.

violence. And the generals have Insiders, meanwhile, scorned the

:25:06.:25:11.

idea that the army wants to do anything other than get back to

:25:11.:25:17.

barracks as soon as it can. TRANSLATION: I don't think the

:25:17.:25:20.

transition period will go on for much longer. It is wrong to think

:25:20.:25:25.

the military want to takeover. No- one would want that. Including the

:25:25.:25:29.

international community. The military want to hold elections as

:25:29.:25:35.

soon as possible. So if order is shaky and the army can't police,

:25:35.:25:44.

what will happen here? Down in the Al-Hussein district, the tourist

:25:44.:25:49.

market is on its knees, disorder has hit tourism hard. Some of the

:25:49.:25:54.

stall holders used to make 300 Egyptian pounds on a good day, now

:25:54.:26:01.

it is one tenth of that. business is going down, it is not

:26:01.:26:05.

going up. Some here want a military crackdown,

:26:05.:26:09.

but they know it won't happen. Instead, they pray the elections

:26:09.:26:17.

will end the country's disorder. It started so good and now it has

:26:17.:26:21.

become ridiculous. And the army is not so bad what they think, it is

:26:21.:26:29.

not so bad. So, if the stage is set for

:26:29.:26:35.

political showdown, with November's planned elections, last Friday's

:26:35.:26:45.
:26:45.:26:45.

prayers in Tahrir Square showed one party's ability to organise. This

:26:45.:26:51.

event was dominated by Salafist, religious Muslim, must stricter

:26:51.:26:56.

than the Brotherhood in the observance they urge.

:26:56.:27:01.

There was a Wahhabi preacher holding forth in Saudi dialect, and

:27:01.:27:06.

hundreds of thousands of people had turned up. Among them the cox from

:27:06.:27:12.

the rowing club and his friends. The Islamic parties will win in the

:27:13.:27:16.

election? We hope, we aim to win. Because there are more and more

:27:16.:27:22.

people, you see, most people here, Islam is the most people in Egypt.

:27:22.:27:32.

About 77% in the last vote. We will win, I think. Egypt is an Islamic

:27:32.:27:38.

area, we are not Muslim, they want to make us liberal, we respect

:27:38.:27:43.

those people, but keep those things for you, and leave the people say

:27:44.:27:49.

what they want. If the people want to live liberally we will live with

:27:49.:27:55.

them, if people say they want Islam, we go with Islam, that is democracy.

:27:55.:28:01.

The Brotherhood does not share the Sulafist desire for a swift move to

:28:01.:28:05.

an Islamic state. What is clear is that the two Islamic parties

:28:05.:28:10.

between them may well deliver a majority of the electorate.

:28:10.:28:15.

None of the liberal-minded parties favoured by the west has brought

:28:15.:28:25.
:28:25.:28:25.

these numbers to the square. The Sulafist produced a disciplined,

:28:25.:28:29.

impressive show of strength. It really shows the relative

:28:29.:28:36.

balance of political forces here. And the ability of the Islamists to

:28:37.:28:40.

answer people's concerns from security to economic and to

:28:40.:28:44.

mobilise their people and get their vote out.

:28:44.:28:50.

Whether or not the US or UK like what they see as Egypt careers

:28:50.:28:54.

towards the polls, there is little they can now do to influence this

:28:54.:29:00.

revolution. Elections happen as planned, then

:29:00.:29:04.

the superior organisation and ideolgical strength of the Islamist

:29:04.:29:10.

movements could easily bring them victory.

:29:10.:29:14.

We have got our memory man coming up in just a few moments. First t

:29:14.:29:17.

has been a bad Newsweek for economies, from the United States

:29:17.:29:21.

to Spain and itly the, but while the politicians talk of billions -

:29:21.:29:24.

and Italy, but while the politicians talk of billions and

:29:24.:29:30.

trillions, we wondered how the rest of us are being squeezed in pounds

:29:30.:29:33.

and pence. We have exclusive research that shows what has

:29:33.:29:38.

happened to our take-home pay since the recession hit. It is sobering

:29:38.:29:42.

stuff. Generally speaking it is on a

:29:42.:29:45.

downward spiral, small businesses have been hit as well.

:29:45.:29:51.

We are teachers, we are both on a pay freeze this year. But certainly

:29:51.:29:57.

petrol and food definitely. Eats a little more at your monthly income.

:29:57.:30:02.

Have you had pay rise lately? lately, but I'm looking for one,

:30:02.:30:07.

man. How are you finding prices and paying the bills? Getting harder

:30:07.:30:11.

right now. This is Slough, one of several

:30:11.:30:15.

candidates, along with the likes of Banbury and Northampton, for the

:30:15.:30:25.
:30:25.:30:30.

title of "Average Town UK". The amount consumers are likely to fork

:30:30.:30:34.

out is changing. We have been hearing a lot in

:30:34.:30:39.

recent months about the squeeze on living standards, but we haven't

:30:39.:30:42.

heard much about it means in pounds and pence. We commissioned special

:30:42.:30:46.

research to find out what the effect had been on people's take

:30:46.:30:51.

home pay, we found out in the last two-and-a-half years, real take

:30:51.:31:01.

home pay has fallen for the average person by more than 12 - �1200 a

:31:01.:31:05.

year. In real terms the average construction worker is taking �86

:31:05.:31:09.

less than last year. The average retail worker, already

:31:09.:31:16.

on low pay was �25 a month worse off. And the average public sector

:31:16.:31:22.

workers' take home pay is boun by �50. This affects families like

:31:22.:31:28.

this, Guy used to run a business, but changed career to be a teacher,

:31:28.:31:31.

a move made possible by the recession. Because interest rates

:31:31.:31:35.

came down so far, our mortgage had become very, very affordable, and

:31:35.:31:40.

that meant I had little and little bit extra which allowed me to take

:31:40.:31:44.

the plunge and do my training. During the worst of the recession

:31:44.:31:48.

we were better off, as we are climbing out, so we have got more

:31:48.:31:52.

expenses, and bills are going up, inflation is going up, and we're,

:31:52.:31:55.

although I'm going to get a little bit more money, obviously it is

:31:55.:32:00.

going to get a little bit tighter in many respects. Sarah is trying

:32:00.:32:04.

to ease the squeeze on the family budget by taking on more work as a

:32:04.:32:08.

private swimming teacher. Yes we are bring anything more income now,

:32:08.:32:12.

which is fantastic, it is the expense of the family time we

:32:12.:32:15.

spending to. What happened to this family also happened to most of us.

:32:15.:32:19.

Even in the boom years, before the banking crisis, the average take

:32:19.:32:23.

home pay didn't keep up with prices. It was actually only when the

:32:23.:32:28.

global recession struck, that the cost of living fell, and we got

:32:28.:32:31.

better off. It is now that we are in recovery that the amount we can

:32:32.:32:35.

buy with our money is again slipping back.

:32:35.:32:40.

Food prices have been pushed up by a surge in demand from Asia, and

:32:40.:32:44.

the weak pound means shoppers here are squeezed harder than the UK or

:32:44.:32:50.

Europe. That pinchs particularly hard if you are a mum with mouths

:32:50.:32:56.

to feed. The day-to-day budget, clothing for instance, kids don't

:32:56.:33:00.

stay the same size, you have to buy loads of clothes. What else, I mean,

:33:00.:33:04.

taking them out, day trips, you can't just take them to the park,

:33:04.:33:08.

they get a bid bored, there might be other stuff you need money for.

:33:09.:33:12.

The trouble with the word "recovery", it is misleading if you

:33:12.:33:15.

take it to mean the consumer is getting off and feeling better. In

:33:15.:33:18.

fact we got better off in the recession and we are getting worse

:33:18.:33:23.

off now in the recovery. What's really happening here is that we

:33:23.:33:27.

are breaking our addiction to spending beyond our means. And what

:33:27.:33:32.

we don't yet know is whether this cure is going to be more painful

:33:32.:33:36.

than the disease. We are worse off now than we were

:33:36.:33:41.

in 2004, and what's driving that, according to one think-tank, is an

:33:41.:33:43.

unprecedented situation where we are competing with countries that

:33:43.:33:46.

pay their workers a tenth of what we do.

:33:46.:33:51.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we had to cut our living standards

:33:51.:33:55.

by roundabout a quarter over a generation. And actually that's

:33:55.:34:00.

just an extrap laigs over what has happened over the last eight years.

:34:00.:34:05.

This is not predetermined and if we get ourselves the right skills so

:34:05.:34:11.

we can compete in premium areas to charge premium prices, then we

:34:11.:34:14.

don't have to cut our living standards. We will be forced to if

:34:14.:34:19.

we are simply in the same areas, and we are therefore competing in

:34:19.:34:29.
:34:29.:34:34.

the same traditional areas that we have in the past. Our families are

:34:34.:34:40.

gaining more by step anything and doing some work in other ways, this

:34:40.:34:45.

work has brought in �100 a month. We have to step up what we are

:34:45.:34:50.

doing if our children will not be worse off than the parents.

:34:50.:34:54.

The greatest conference on memory will be held this month. Explaining

:34:54.:34:57.

how memory can be improved and impaired. We will discuss what we

:34:58.:35:03.

know, and the vast amount we still do not know about memory.

:35:03.:35:07.

Steven Smith remembered to turn up for work today, we put him to good

:35:07.:35:14.

use. Are you ready Mr Memory? I will

:35:14.:35:18.

place myself into readiness for this evening's performance, and

:35:18.:35:23.

super material. Mr Memory has been turning in unforgetable

:35:23.:35:27.

performances. Now ladies and gentlemen first question please.

:35:27.:35:37.
:35:37.:35:37.

Yes, Sir, being beg your pardon, Sir, who won the cup in 19267.

:35:37.:35:43.

1926, the Arsenal gunners were beaten in the presence of His

:35:43.:35:50.

Majesty King George V. The great old yarn The 39 Steps, running in

:35:50.:35:57.

London, resolves around a prodigious feat of memory. It is a

:35:57.:36:02.

strange old mismemory, we are impressed by it, we know when it is

:36:02.:36:09.

working and when it isn't. When it comes to how the old grey

:36:09.:36:13.

matter actually operates, you are asking the wrong species, mate.

:36:14.:36:18.

know, as brain scientists, quite a lot what happens when we learn

:36:18.:36:21.

something, what changes take place in the brain then. What we know

:36:21.:36:24.

almost nothing about is how we actually remember, that is what

:36:24.:36:34.
:36:34.:36:39.

goes on in the brain to enable you Memory. Andrew Lloyd Webber had it

:36:39.:36:46.

right, yet again, when he said every street light seems to beat a

:36:46.:36:50.

fatalistic warning. Technological aids are all very well, but don't

:36:50.:36:54.

lose the old skills. The status of memory has changed, because of

:36:54.:36:57.

technology. Memory is something that we don't attach as much

:36:57.:37:00.

importance to, as we used to, because we can get machines to do

:37:00.:37:04.

it for us, we don't bother to remember phone numbers any more,

:37:04.:37:08.

because we feel secure that they are stowed away in our pocket

:37:08.:37:12.

somewhere. I can still remember the phone numbers of my childhood

:37:12.:37:15.

friends, but I couldn't tell you what my wife's phone number was. We

:37:15.:37:25.
:37:25.:37:30.

have sort of outsourced that We invited eight-times world

:37:30.:37:35.

champion memory man, Dominic O'Brien into the controlled

:37:35.:37:38.

environment of the overheating Newsnight Green Room, to show us

:37:38.:37:46.

what a trained memory can do. Is it best if I don't talk to you now, do

:37:46.:37:51.

you have to concentrate? It is up to you. Dominic said he could

:37:51.:37:58.

memorise 20 random playing cards in the right order in 30 seconds or so.

:37:58.:38:03.

Starting from the top, the cards are. The four of spades, the ace of

:38:03.:38:08.

club, the seven of diamonds, the three of hearts, it is the ace of

:38:08.:38:14.

hearts, the eight of diamond, followed by the king of spades.

:38:14.:38:19.

came up with them faster than I can shuffle them. How did you do that?

:38:19.:38:23.

I'm bringing the cards to life Madgeing them as people. And using

:38:23.:38:33.
:38:33.:38:37.

- imagining them as people, and then a journey. Back at the 39

:38:37.:38:41.

Steps, the actor in the role has his memory tested. It is not like

:38:41.:38:45.

the actor in the role with the lines written everywhere and on

:38:45.:38:50.

your sleeve. Can we check that. For paying customers, there is nothing

:38:50.:38:54.

there. No ear pieces. Not like Marlon brand dough, you just have

:38:54.:39:03.

to learn it. What was Napoleon's horse called? It was called

:39:03.:39:09.

Balerithon, when he road at the battle of Waterloo, am I right,

:39:09.:39:15.

Sir? Quite right. Memory man, Dominic O'Brien is with

:39:15.:39:22.

us now, along with my guests. As we are talking we have challenge for

:39:22.:39:29.

Dominic, to memorise these numbers. There is 100 of them in order, by

:39:29.:39:32.

the end of the programme, in about five minutes time. I think the

:39:32.:39:41.

number also appear now. Now. While Dominic is having fun, I

:39:41.:39:45.

just want to talk but about some of the things that we think we know

:39:45.:39:48.

about memory. The first thing that strikes me is we all think that as

:39:48.:39:53.

we get older our memories get worse s is that true? It is actually an

:39:53.:39:58.

interesting idea that research hasst now revealing that there is

:39:58.:40:02.

different aspectss of memory that get better as we age - aspects of

:40:02.:40:07.

memory that get better as we age. One of them is our wisdom or our

:40:07.:40:10.

general knowledge. While we might experience things like for getting

:40:10.:40:15.

names or certain details of situations. Or car keys?

:40:15.:40:20.

getting things that have just happened to us, - forgetting things

:40:20.:40:24.

that have just happened to us. But we are getting better with age in

:40:24.:40:28.

rembering concepts and facts and general knowledge. Is there a

:40:28.:40:31.

difference between good and bad memories. Older people sometimes

:40:31.:40:34.

remember good things, but forget some of the bad things. That might

:40:34.:40:38.

be a good defence mechanism? That is actually right. We know that

:40:38.:40:42.

despite the fact that there is a lot of negative things that happen

:40:42.:40:47.

as we age, our health might be failing, our our relatives might be

:40:47.:40:52.

passing way, older adults have a very good way of regulating their

:40:52.:40:56.

emotions, in terms of focusing on positive information in their

:40:56.:41:03.

environment and rembering that. memory always useful, I would

:41:03.:41:06.

always think there are some things we would want to forget, and that

:41:06.:41:11.

is a good thing? It can sometimes be a serious problem for people who

:41:11.:41:15.

have survived traumatic or life- threatening events, these intrusive

:41:15.:41:18.

and vivid memories might come flooding back for many, many years

:41:18.:41:23.

afterwards, something we used to call shell shock, but is now known

:41:23.:41:27.

as post-traumatic stress disorder. One of the things that has been

:41:27.:41:31.

coming up at the conference we are running up, is the remarkable

:41:31.:41:34.

flexibility of memory, and the fact that we might have in the future

:41:34.:41:38.

new ways that might be able to change or reduce these kind of

:41:38.:41:42.

intrusive memory it is not always a good thing to remember. We are

:41:43.:41:48.

watching Dominic here, memorise all these numbers, do we know how

:41:48.:41:52.

memory works, we know it is like a filing cabinet and pull things out

:41:52.:41:56.

s that right, is that how it works? I think the first piece of

:41:56.:42:00.

understanding we must make clear is that there is not just one type of

:42:00.:42:03.

memory, there are many different types of memory. And they all work

:42:03.:42:07.

in different ways, and perhaps depend on different brain

:42:07.:42:10.

mechanisms that can go wrong in different ways. Dominic now is

:42:10.:42:13.

probably trying to remember these numbers as being located in

:42:13.:42:17.

different places around his house or around a familiar route, as he

:42:17.:42:23.

mentioned before. That kind of technique might enable him to use

:42:23.:42:26.

his hipercampus, a part of the brain that we use for finding our

:42:27.:42:30.

way around, but also the part used for long-term memories. This is

:42:30.:42:33.

clearly interesting, but if it we did know much more about memory and

:42:33.:42:37.

how it works, would that help us in some way, would we be able to

:42:37.:42:41.

achieve more? I think there is a number of misconception that is we

:42:41.:42:45.

actually have in our common understanding of how memory works,

:42:45.:42:50.

and so an understanding the ways in which memory can be enhanced, new

:42:50.:42:53.

research that has been done in the states has shown there is different

:42:53.:42:58.

ways in which we can study material, to better learn that material, and

:42:58.:43:02.

to have it endure for longer. And I think also understanding that

:43:02.:43:06.

memory goes beyond the past and that is something I have really

:43:06.:43:11.

been focused on. Memory goes beyond the past? I have been researching

:43:11.:43:16.

how memory is used as the building blocks to imagine the future. Even

:43:16.:43:20.

though memorys play - memories play back like videos in your mind, they

:43:20.:43:24.

are stored in different ways, as framents or details across the

:43:24.:43:28.

brain, that actually mean that is memory can be pulled apart and put

:43:28.:43:32.

together in different ways. In that sense, what is the relationship

:43:32.:43:35.

between having good memory or being intelligent and creative, they are

:43:35.:43:39.

all slightly different things, we assume people who are intelligent

:43:39.:43:44.

have good memories? Donna has raised way in which memory can help

:43:45.:43:48.

with creativity by putting together new ideas in a new imaginative way.

:43:48.:43:52.

More generally, I'm not certain there is a close relationship

:43:52.:43:56.

between all good types of memory and intelligence. Some kind of

:43:56.:44:01.

memory might allow you to continually store habits that are

:44:01.:44:05.

reinforced over and over again, you might not be able to think about

:44:05.:44:09.

those things, they come automatically to mind, I'm thinking

:44:09.:44:14.

about riding the bike and playing the piano, that is memory too but

:44:15.:44:22.

not the sort of thing we think of when we think of the word. People

:44:22.:44:28.

and me have things like false memory, things I think my parent

:44:28.:44:32.

told me, but they weren't there, that is quite important? There are

:44:32.:44:37.

ways memory can be distort or fail, we might forget the source of the

:44:37.:44:42.

information. We can't remember the context of how we encountered that.

:44:42.:44:46.

Memories are stored in these fragments, when we retrieve a

:44:46.:44:49.

memory, we have to bring together all the fragments again. It is

:44:50.:44:53.

possible we might leave certain details out, or bring in details

:44:53.:44:57.

from other experiences. I was wondering what the big thing that

:44:57.:45:01.

we could hope for in some of this would be. People will also think

:45:01.:45:05.

about Alzheimer's and loss of memory, and terrible debilltation

:45:05.:45:09.

that cause, is it possible, through studying how we remember things,

:45:09.:45:15.

that we might help in Alzheimer's and similar conditions? That is

:45:15.:45:19.

absolutely right, what Dominic is doing now seems like a bit of money,

:45:19.:45:24.

but memory is a serious business, if you lose your memory you are

:45:24.:45:28.

losing your sense of self. Alzheimer's is something to be

:45:28.:45:31.

solved and one of the most pressing issues for scientists to work on

:45:31.:45:34.

today. Dominic your time for memorising stops now.

:45:34.:45:38.

Thank you very much. We will get back to you and test you in just a

:45:38.:45:48.
:45:48.:46:15.

second. 30 seconds after I have Back to Dominic now to see if he

:46:15.:46:17.

can give us the 100 numbers in order.

:46:17.:46:27.
:46:27.:46:35.

You have until the credits run out. , 6331, 1, 5 7, 29, 6, 8, 3, 55, 59,

:46:35.:46:45.
:46:45.:46:52.

3, 1, 33, 46, 437, 2, 5, 88, 7, 4 I think it is 81, 1, 4, 40 it could

:46:52.:47:02.
:47:02.:47:14.

be 8, 7, 7430, 2, 1, 17, 2, 24, 26, 1, 9, 28, 50, 5, 28, 22, 4, 7, 8,

:47:14.:47:24.
:47:24.:47:24.

22, 3, 5, 8, 33, 5, 1. 22, 3, 5, 8, 33, 5, 1.

:47:24.:47:27.

APPLAUSE. Good evening, the daytime heat has

:47:27.:47:30.

peaked, one more muggy night to deal with. With it outbreaks of

:47:30.:47:35.

rain pushing to the west. The wetter weather will push through

:47:36.:47:39.

areas. Rain working up other parts of eastern England. Into the

:47:39.:47:42.

afternoon brighter weather will develop for North West England, a

:47:42.:47:46.

wetter afternoon in store for eastern most parts. Particularly in

:47:46.:47:49.

East Anglia, it is East Anglia to the London area to the south where

:47:49.:47:54.

we could see minor flooding. London drying out for the second half of

:47:54.:48:00.

the day. Many will see sunshine come out through the afternoon. The

:48:00.:48:04.

temperatures will have dropped, humid and fresher in the shade. The

:48:04.:48:06.

August sunshine strong enough across Wales to make it feel

:48:07.:48:10.

reasonably warm. A brighter end to the day than we started with. For

:48:10.:48:13.

Northern Ireland brightening skies in the afternoon, temperatures in

:48:13.:48:16.

the high teens, squeezing the low 20s. For the northern half of

:48:16.:48:20.

Scotland here the rain that stafrted in the south will have

:48:20.:48:25.

pushed its way northwards and will remain wet through Thursday night.

:48:25.:48:29.

Then the changes, northern areas we have the rain predominantly on

:48:29.:48:33.

Thursday, Friday looking dryer, same further south, temperatures

:48:33.:48:39.

will climb a little bit for one or two. Not back to the heat and

:48:39.:48:42.

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