15/08/2011 Newsnight


15/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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"Slow motion moral collapse". Was it the cause of the riots as the

:00:09.:00:12.

Prime Minister claimed today? Do either of these men have a solution

:00:12.:00:16.

to what caused so much civil unrest last week? Is it David Cameron's

:00:17.:00:19.

way, all about instilling personal responsibility, or Miliband's plan

:00:19.:00:23.

for more jobs and opportunities? I'm joined by David Willetts,

:00:23.:00:27.

Hilary Benn and the Bishop of Kingston. David Cameron declares

:00:27.:00:33.

war on gangs - do these Hackney teenagers think he can win it?

:00:33.:00:41.

REPORTER: If he says war, what will the effect be? Big war. Bigger war

:00:41.:00:45.

than already. Does the American way offer a solution to gang violence?

:00:45.:00:48.

I'll be asking a former New York Police Commissioner. And are the so

:00:48.:00:52.

called "feral rich" in their own way as much to blame for our moral

:00:52.:00:58.

malaise as the feral poor? And also tonight, the economic malaise. On

:00:58.:01:00.

the eve of the Merkel-Sarkozy Summit, how do Germans feel about

:01:00.:01:10.
:01:10.:01:14.

Good evening. The arrests continue in London and in other English

:01:14.:01:17.

cities, the courts are still jammed, hundreds are on remand and the

:01:17.:01:20.

convicted are beginning their sentences. Now the politicians are

:01:20.:01:23.

trying to work out all the things that have gone wrong, but their

:01:23.:01:28.

solutions are different. For David Cameron, it is about an absence of

:01:28.:01:31.

morality - fatherless households, poor parenting. He said that

:01:31.:01:34.

politicians' failure to moralise had been the cause of social

:01:34.:01:38.

breakdown. In a concurrent speech, Ed Miliband emphasised the role of

:01:38.:01:40.

workless households, the lack of facilities for teenagers and a

:01:40.:01:50.
:01:50.:02:05.

dearth of opportunities. David A slow motion moral collapse - a

:02:05.:02:15.
:02:15.:02:16.

nation whose values are in crisis. The Prime Minister's message was

:02:16.:02:21.

what we saw last week was not a moment of madness but decades in

:02:21.:02:29.

the making. At a speech in his Oxfordshire constituency, Mr

:02:29.:02:36.

Cameron promised the Government would look at every single one of

:02:36.:02:40.

its social policies. This must be a wake-up call for our country.

:02:40.:02:47.

Social problems have exploded in our face. The causes were all too

:02:47.:02:50.

clear. Irresponsibility, selfishness, behaving as if your

:02:50.:02:55.

choices have no consequences, children without fathers, schools

:02:55.:03:01.

without discipline, reward without effort. Crime without punishment,

:03:01.:03:03.

rights without responsibilities, communities without control. Some

:03:03.:03:12.

of the worst aspects of human nature, sometimes incentivised by a

:03:12.:03:17.

state and its agencies that have become demoralised. So do we have

:03:17.:03:21.

the determination to confront all this and turn it round? The Prime

:03:21.:03:25.

Minister declared an all-out war on gangs and gang culture. And there

:03:25.:03:31.

will be plans to improve parenting including targeting 120,000 of the

:03:31.:03:35.

most troubled families in the country who will have their lives

:03:35.:03:39.

turned around or improved by the next general election. There will

:03:39.:03:46.

be a review of human rights and health and safety legislation. And

:03:46.:03:50.

how far can those convicted of crimes be stripped of their

:03:50.:03:54.

benefits? Even those on the right who welcomed the message worry

:03:54.:03:59.

about how practical this get tough agenda is. Even though a lot of

:03:59.:04:02.

people support it, I would be surprised if people lose their

:04:02.:04:06.

council houses or benefits because they have been involved in

:04:06.:04:09.

criminality. There is an agenda around the idea of conditionality

:04:09.:04:14.

which could make some progress, the idea that there should be greater

:04:14.:04:24.
:04:24.:04:26.

conditions on receiving benefits. I think those ideas are practical.

:04:26.:04:30.

The ideas of taking away people's benefits will probably not happen.

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Then there is the David Cameron's coalition partners. This lady says

:04:37.:04:42.

her colleagues would fight such benefits changes hard. If we are

:04:42.:04:45.

going to rehabilitate people and make them part of society, they

:04:45.:04:48.

need to have enough money to be able to have a roof over their head

:04:48.:04:51.

to be able to put food on the table and to be able to get themselves in

:04:52.:04:55.

a position where they can find work. If we cut people's benefits, they

:04:55.:04:58.

are less likely to be able to do that and also they are more likely

:04:59.:05:03.

to turn to crime to get enough money to live on. So we could end

:05:03.:05:09.

up making the situation worse. Labour Leader was dismissive of the

:05:09.:05:12.

Government's plans. Ed Miliband thinks more work is needed to

:05:12.:05:16.

identify the causes of the disturbances. He wants the

:05:16.:05:21.

Government to call a full-blown inquiry into what happened. Instant

:05:21.:05:26.

and simple judgments in response to these events bring bad solutions.

:05:26.:05:34.

Of course, the public says we want quick action. A new policy a day,

:05:34.:05:40.

knee-jerk gimmicks, they won't solve the problem. Let's be honest

:05:40.:05:45.

about the politicians in this - appointed new advisor, that won't

:05:45.:05:49.

meet the public's demand for real and lasting solutions.

:05:49.:05:55.

Government is not planning to have the full statutory inquiry that

:05:55.:05:57.

Labour wants. But tomorrow the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg

:05:57.:06:02.

will announce what's being described as a grassroots

:06:02.:06:07.

engagement exercise hearing from victims and communities about what

:06:07.:06:10.

went wrong. The Government is already convinced that the police

:06:10.:06:15.

need urgent reform. The public spat with senior officers continued over

:06:15.:06:19.

the weekend. Plans to seek advice from a senior American policeman

:06:20.:06:24.

have not gone down well. Sir Hugh Orde, President of ACPO, speaking

:06:25.:06:34.
:06:35.:06:43.

A week ago tonight, this was the scene at Clapham Junction. The

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police did nothing to stop the looting for two hours. Tomorrow,

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the Home Secretary will make a speech promising to press ahead

:06:51.:06:55.

with police reform. Not that long ago a Conservative

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Prime Minister would rather be caught looting Debenhams than

:06:58.:07:02.

having a knock-down row with the police about who knows best about

:07:02.:07:06.

protecting the public. What's changed? Well, the first thing

:07:06.:07:09.

that's changed is Ministers don't think they have got a choice at the

:07:09.:07:13.

moment. If they back down now, it will not only they fear be the end

:07:13.:07:18.

of their police reform agenda, it could put a big hole in their plans

:07:18.:07:21.

to tackle the budget deficit. There's another reason. They think

:07:21.:07:26.

the mood of voters has profoundly changed. What happened here at

:07:26.:07:31.

Clapham Junction they think adds to a mood that the police aren't

:07:31.:07:35.

getting it done any more. The Prime Minister knows that other

:07:35.:07:38.

politicians before him have promised to re-build the nation's

:07:38.:07:42.

morals. He knows too that the public tell pollsters they yearn

:07:42.:07:47.

for such action. The big difficulty is not identifying the many

:07:47.:07:51.

problems, it is finding policies that will sort them out.

:07:52.:07:54.

I'm joined by the Higher Education Minister, David Willetts, the

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Shadow Leader of the House, Hilary Benn, and the Bishop of Kingston,

:07:57.:08:04.

Dr Richard Cheetham. Slow motion moral collapse - what is moral

:08:04.:08:11.

collapse? Well, we have seen on our TVs what that is. We should be

:08:11.:08:15.

clear about the moral difference between the people that we have

:08:15.:08:20.

just seen raiding shops, threatening individuals, and then

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the following day in that same part of Clapham the people who gathered

:08:24.:08:28.

buying their new brooms to clean up. That is the difference between

:08:28.:08:31.

people doing the wrong thing and the right thing. Although we have

:08:31.:08:39.

our own imperfections, all of us should begin by recognising that is

:08:39.:08:48.

an important difference in the way people behave. David Cameron wants

:08:48.:08:52.

deeper and accelerated programme on parenting. That was a key message

:08:52.:08:57.

that he had today along with the idea that fatherless households

:08:57.:09:04.

were to be discouraged. We spoke to a pressure group on cuts and the

:09:04.:09:10.

list of cuts to parenting groups is quite extensive. Everything from

:09:10.:09:15.

2,000 to 40,000, you will have to turn around a lot of money to help

:09:15.:09:22.

parents? Well, if you look at the 120,000 families that you reported

:09:22.:09:25.

in your clip, the families that have the greatest problems, there

:09:25.:09:31.

is an enormous amount of money going into those at the moment. The

:09:31.:09:36.

living rooms of some of those families is like Victoria Station.

:09:36.:09:42.

It's not treating the whole person. This is one example of a wider

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truth that you can do better. I suspect that one of the very

:09:48.:09:53.

widespread factors behind those people that we saw rioting is I

:09:53.:09:59.

suspect a lot of them were in families where there has not been

:09:59.:10:05.

an actively involved father. Have these riots given David Cameron the

:10:05.:10:09.

moral authority to say things, a licence to say things he wouldn't

:10:09.:10:16.

say otherwise? You see, the point is that David right from the

:10:16.:10:22.

beginning - I remember his first speech - this theme of what's gone

:10:22.:10:25.

wrong with our society is something that he personally cares deeply

:10:25.:10:29.

about. What has happened... Then he moved on to the NHS... What's

:10:29.:10:34.

happened in the past week, it's shown the validity of so much of

:10:35.:10:39.

what he was saying then. There is why there is a new impetus behind

:10:39.:10:45.

the welfare reforms, the school reforms. It has a new energy

:10:45.:10:50.

because it is so needed. politicians - are they right -

:10:50.:10:54.

should Ed Miliband be setting the moral agenda? I don't think it is

:10:54.:11:00.

for us to moralise. It is, isn't it? We have to say what we think is

:11:00.:11:04.

right and what is wrong. We have to understand the causes of this. I'm

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sorry, David Cameron having made that speech in 2006, he has moved

:11:09.:11:16.

away from it. What Ed Miliband was saying today is we have seen a lot

:11:16.:11:25.

of gimmicks, or evicting people from their homes. I don't think

:11:25.:11:29.

those are the answers to the problems. You saw the opposition

:11:29.:11:32.

from the Liberal Democrats the possibility of withdrawal of

:11:32.:11:35.

benefits. What do you make of that? This is one of the many ideas that

:11:35.:11:40.

we will have to look at. You are considering it? We will look at it

:11:40.:11:44.

across the coalition. I have to say, hearing a Minister in the Tony

:11:44.:11:47.

Blair Government denouncing gimmicks is a bit rich. The fact is,

:11:47.:11:53.

I remember Frank Field proposing measures on tightening the links

:11:53.:11:58.

between access to housing benefit and housing and anti-social

:11:58.:12:00.

behaviour. Tony Blair talked about it. They didn't do anything about

:12:00.:12:08.

it. Bishop, when you hear this - and the gimmicks and moralising,

:12:08.:12:12.

are politicians the one from whom we should take our moral lessons?

:12:12.:12:16.

It involves far more than the politicians. The politicians ought

:12:16.:12:20.

to be involved in something to do with the moral framework of our

:12:20.:12:24.

country. They are key players in the forming of laws and that is

:12:24.:12:30.

closely linked to morality. Moralising then, what David Cameron

:12:30.:12:36.

is saying per se, fatherless households are bad per se, marriage

:12:36.:12:41.

is better than non-marriage? course, it is right that certain

:12:41.:12:45.

things need to be condemned as being utterly wrong and a clear

:12:45.:12:49.

distinction between right and wrong. In the area that I cover - and

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Clapham is part of my area - I was on the streets on Tuesday morning,

:12:53.:12:57.

I have spoken to some of those affected, so I know the damage that

:12:57.:13:01.

has been done to people's lives. we need - we don't live in the same

:13:01.:13:05.

society that people lived in when the Ten Commandments were brought

:13:05.:13:10.

about. Do we need a new moral contract that everybody can

:13:10.:13:14.

understand? We need clear moral frameworks. We need to take a close

:13:14.:13:21.

look I think about how moral character is formed in people. The

:13:21.:13:25.

chief Rabbi spoke about the importance of the inner policeman.

:13:25.:13:30.

We can't, as I think bril Bratton said, we can't arrest our way --

:13:30.:13:34.

Bill Bratton said, we can't arrest our way out of this programme. That

:13:34.:13:41.

is true. Can you clarify something that David Cameron said about we

:13:41.:13:47.

must look to see if health and safety legislation and the Human

:13:47.:13:54.

Rights Act is stimeying our efforts in that direction? In the very

:13:54.:13:58.

early hours of this, there was an issue about whether or not it was

:13:58.:14:02.

OK to put on TV the images of people who were involved in rioting

:14:03.:14:07.

so some people were suggesting even this might not be possible. You

:14:07.:14:11.

endlessly hear these type of arguments which are based on a

:14:11.:14:15.

misunderstanding of the law and we will be tackling this. Can I go

:14:15.:14:19.

back to what the bishop said? I think what's happened for us as

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politicians is because we are all imperfect ourselves, because we all

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know... You put this very... that reason, people have become

:14:29.:14:33.

aware of trying to make any moral judgment at all. Unless you are

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Mother Teresa, you are not allowed to talk about morality. You did

:14:38.:14:41.

before "back to basics"? Of course, that is the issue. We should be

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allowed - morality is too important to be left to people... Hilary

:14:48.:14:52.

Benn? I was going to say, on CCTV images, there is no problem, we

:14:53.:14:59.

have seen them on the television, they are proving effective. What we

:14:59.:15:02.

really need is to listen to the people who have been on the

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receiving end of this violence, we need to listen to those, some of

:15:05.:15:10.

those who have been causing the problems to understand why. Isn't

:15:10.:15:14.

it the bigger... We have to have a proper inquiry. Tomorrow, there

:15:14.:15:18.

will be some sort of listening exercise. If that is the first

:15:18.:15:21.

stage, I welcome it. Everybody knows there is going to have to be

:15:21.:15:28.

a full inquiry. Do you really want an inquiry that takes three years?

:15:28.:15:32.

No. It is not just necessarily drilled down into the areas where

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there has been unrest, there is a moral malaise. Having a proper

:15:40.:15:44.

inquiry into this, surely it is listening quickly to what people

:15:44.:15:49.

are saying on the ground? I want an inquiry to be done as quickly as

:15:49.:15:53.

possible. Bishop, is this going to be fixed for the next general

:15:54.:15:59.

election? I do think we need a proper deep look at it. I was

:15:59.:16:04.

immensely grateful for the swift response to putting, sorting some

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of these riots out. I think we need to take a rather more measured look

:16:09.:16:14.

at the causes of these because they are complex. To talk about causes

:16:14.:16:19.

does not excuse some of these actions. I agree with what David

:16:19.:16:26.

was saying, we need far more people engaged in moral discussion and

:16:27.:16:31.

where the roots of our morality comes from about our sense of what

:16:31.:16:37.

makes the good life and we have become a very inquisitive kind of

:16:37.:16:45.

culture which has quite a cancerous effect on the overall climate.

:16:45.:16:48.

we've been hearing, some of the blame for last week's riots has

:16:48.:16:58.
:16:58.:17:00.

been laid at the door of a gang culture in English cities. Paul

:17:00.:17:03.

Mason's been to Hackney where shops were burnt out and looters rampaged

:17:03.:17:07.

on the streets to find out what they make of the Prime Minister's

:17:07.:17:17.
:17:17.:17:18.

By tea time there was almost a wartime feel about the Pembury

:17:18.:17:25.

estate, Hackney. The staff of M&S provided the cakes. Community

:17:25.:17:28.

leaders came and the youth themselves. The only people

:17:28.:17:32.

missing? The hardened gang members who are supposed to have caused it

:17:32.:17:37.

all. They were front of mind for David Cameron. It is time for

:17:38.:17:42.

something else too. A concerted all-out war on gangs and gang

:17:42.:17:48.

culture. And here is how the war on gangs went down among the youth of

:17:48.:17:55.

Hackney. What - can you explain what kind of war you mean? He means

:17:55.:18:03.

intervening with police against drugs, against gun violence? We are

:18:03.:18:08.

getting stopped on the streets for that. If we don't have anything, we

:18:08.:18:13.

get put inside cells. If he says war on gangs, what will the effect

:18:13.:18:20.

be? War. A big war. Bigger war than already. You think that will

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happen? Yeah. If it is not war on gangs, how would you solve the

:18:24.:18:29.

problem of violence in a place like this? Stop the stop and search

:18:29.:18:32.

first of all. We don't like stop and search. Get rid of the police.

:18:32.:18:39.

Get them out of our communities. Calm. Peace. And the local vicar

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was no more enthusiastic. To use words like "war against gangs" is

:18:45.:18:49.

very dangerous and it is likely to cause greater division. Why? A lot

:18:49.:18:53.

of people outside Hackney think they have had enough with areas

:18:53.:18:59.

that are dominated by gangs. Surely we should crackdown on them?

:18:59.:19:06.

don't think it is that similar pl. There are mitigating circumstances

:19:06.:19:12.

as to why people -- it is that simple. There are mitigating

:19:12.:19:17.

circumstances as to why people join gangs. The lives of people here are

:19:17.:19:25.

plagued by gangs. When it comes to a war on gangs, this part of London

:19:25.:19:29.

is one of the most studied areas in Western Europe and what the studies

:19:29.:19:33.

tell us is that the world of youth on the streets and the serious guys

:19:33.:19:37.

with serious firearms and big cars and then the criminal families

:19:37.:19:40.

running drugs into the country, these are three very different

:19:40.:19:46.

worlds. So where do you start the war? If you are running a business

:19:46.:19:50.

selling crack cocaine or heroin, on the street or in your estate, the

:19:50.:19:55.

last thing you want is a load of coppers running in, none of your

:19:55.:20:01.

customers will show up. Who was it? I think it was the younger kids,

:20:01.:20:04.

kids who got carried away with the moment who wanted to prove to their

:20:04.:20:09.

mates that they were up for it and bold and things like that. Hackney,

:20:09.:20:14.

which was torn by rioting last week, is home to numerous warring street

:20:14.:20:23.

gangs, the Pembury boys, the 925, the London Fields Boys and some

:20:23.:20:28.

others. The problem for the police is what does war with them mean?

:20:28.:20:33.

Five days before the riots, 300 police swooped on the Pembury

:20:33.:20:39.

estate raiding 32 addresses, arresting 23 people, this after the

:20:39.:20:43.

longest covert policing operation in the Met's history. Pembury still

:20:43.:20:49.

became the centre of rioting. This man, a long time community activist,

:20:49.:20:53.

alleges the police had made an arrangement with one of the rival

:20:53.:20:57.

gangs. You think the police did a deal with the London Fields Gang?

:20:57.:21:03.

They didn't do a deal. I'm saying what they did was, they told them,

:21:03.:21:09.

they said you can do what you like, OK, as long as you do not touch a

:21:09.:21:13.

police officer. This is before the riot? Not just before. This was

:21:14.:21:17.

months ago because the police officer had a gun pointed at him

:21:17.:21:22.

and if you can go to these young kids, yeah, and say that, you can

:21:22.:21:28.

say, "You all need to put down your guns, or we will come down heavy on

:21:28.:21:34.

you." Isn't that simple policing? Which is what some police forces

:21:34.:21:38.

have been doing. In Manchester police targeted businesses fronting

:21:38.:21:41.

gang operations and gave the gang members a choice - get out or we

:21:41.:21:45.

make your lives a misery. It is called the ceasefire strategy.

:21:45.:21:50.

you don't want these people to be in gangs, you have to say where do

:21:50.:21:55.

I want them to be? If the answer is I want them to be in education,

:21:55.:22:02.

training and work, I think there are all sorts of implications for

:22:02.:22:07.

your economic policies which are obvious. In Hackney, those who will

:22:07.:22:11.

have to fight the new war on gangs are veterans of it. All they need

:22:12.:22:17.

to know is what the new strategy can be that they have not tried

:22:17.:22:20.

before. Paul Mason there. Now the Prime Minister has appointed Bill

:22:20.:22:23.

Bratton, former Police Chief in New York and Los Angeles, who has

:22:23.:22:26.

extensive experience of dealing with gangs as an advisor. It's not

:22:26.:22:28.

an appointment that's been universally welcomed by police here

:22:28.:22:31.

in the UK who doubt that the American model can work this side

:22:31.:22:35.

of the Atlantic. I'm joined now from Washington by Howard Safir who

:22:35.:22:38.

worked closely with Bill Bratton as Police Commissioner in New York and

:22:38.:22:42.

here in the studio by Ian Hanson from the Greater Manchester Police

:22:42.:22:52.
:22:52.:22:52.

Federation. What do you think Bill Bratton has to offer the police

:22:52.:22:58.

forces here? I know Bill well. I succeeded him after he left New

:22:58.:23:03.

York and Bill has had extensive experience in Boston, New York and

:23:03.:23:07.

Los Angeles in dealing with gangs and dealing with them very

:23:07.:23:11.

successfully. The issue is whether or not the American model

:23:11.:23:17.

translates to England and whether or not the British police and the

:23:17.:23:20.

British political system is ready for it. Bill certainly know what is

:23:20.:23:27.

to do and will be a valued advisor. Is that your view, Ian Hanson, that

:23:27.:23:31.

we need Bill Bratton to review policing here? It is not a question

:23:31.:23:35.

of bringing in people from abroad. We have some fantastic people in

:23:35.:23:40.

the UK in policing. The problem is the only people who seem to have

:23:40.:23:42.

been left out with the police officers of Great Britain. The

:23:42.:23:45.

Prime Minister and the Home Secretary are not engaging with the

:23:45.:23:49.

people who are doing this job on a daily basis. It is the police

:23:49.:23:52.

officers who stop the riots, not the politicians. And now what we

:23:52.:23:56.

need is an honest engagement and intelligent discussion with the

:23:56.:23:59.

police officers of the UK. Wouldn't you welcome good advice from

:23:59.:24:05.

wherever it comes? If it comes from Bill Bratton, fine? By all means.

:24:05.:24:08.

We will speak to anybody. The people the Home Secretary should be

:24:08.:24:15.

listening to are the practitioners. What were the tactics that Bill

:24:16.:24:23.

Bratton used? The kind of things that are - and it is not just Bill

:24:23.:24:26.

Bratton - one of the things I want to point out is, I have many

:24:26.:24:32.

friends in the Met. They are very competent. It is a question of

:24:32.:24:35.

philosophy. The philosophy in policing in the United States is

:24:35.:24:38.

the only people who should fear police are criminals, that the

:24:38.:24:42.

public should not but that is very important that criminals fear the

:24:43.:24:46.

police and that we do predictive policing that we gather

:24:46.:24:50.

intelligence, that we have contingency plans for any kind of

:24:50.:24:55.

event and one of the reasons that we have had almost no civil

:24:55.:24:59.

disturbances of the magnitude that you had in London is because we

:25:00.:25:04.

have contingency plans for every possible contingency. Isn't it the

:25:04.:25:11.

case that what Bill Bratton did was use a local crime tax to raise

:25:11.:25:15.

money for 5,000 more police officers? Well, resources are a

:25:15.:25:19.

very important issue. One of the things that - I was police

:25:19.:25:24.

commisioner in New York twice as long as Bill Bratton. One of the

:25:24.:25:27.

things that changed New York from being the crime capital of the

:25:27.:25:33.

world to the safest large city in America were resources. The

:25:33.:25:37.

previous speaker talked about talking to the operators. He is

:25:37.:25:41.

right. What you have to have the political will of the politicians

:25:41.:25:47.

to give police the resources in money and people to be able to

:25:47.:25:50.

execute... We understand that Theresa May is going to say

:25:50.:25:56.

tomorrow the police reforms will go ahead. Bill Bratton got 5,000 extra

:25:56.:26:01.

police officers. You have 20% cuts? Exactly. The Police Service of The

:26:01.:26:05.

UK is exhausted. The public are frightened and the police service

:26:05.:26:10.

don't know where we are going to go from here. We can't function with

:26:10.:26:16.

20,000 less police officers. In America, my colleague there says

:26:16.:26:20.

there that it raised establishments. We are expected to do more with

:26:20.:26:29.

less. Bill Bratton maybe will come in and say you can't go ahead with

:26:29.:26:34.

these cuts? Shouldn't he be engaging with us? We don't want an

:26:34.:26:39.

army of occupation in the UK. It is a different style of policing.

:26:39.:26:42.

Howard Safir seems to be saying is it is proactive rather than

:26:43.:26:48.

reactive. Do you accept that police here are too reactive? We would

:26:48.:26:53.

love to be able to react proactively. We haven't got enough

:26:53.:26:57.

resources. Or maybe you are not organising them... I will take you

:26:57.:27:03.

to any police station. I will show you how well organised these police

:27:03.:27:06.

officers are. Up-and-down the country last week there were not

:27:06.:27:10.

enough police officers in place and it is nothing more than that. We

:27:10.:27:15.

have spoke about "zero tolerance" policing. We would Loch to do that.

:27:15.:27:19.

We haven't got the re-- we would love to do that. We haven't got the

:27:19.:27:23.

resources. You said it was about a mixture of resources and style of

:27:23.:27:28.

policing. Do you think that Bill Bratton might say you don't have

:27:28.:27:32.

the resources? Well, resources are very important. Tactics are very

:27:32.:27:35.

important. Strategy is very important. If you don't have the

:27:35.:27:40.

people and the economic resources and the equipment, you will not

:27:40.:27:44.

succeed. One of the things we found in New York was, if you invest in

:27:44.:27:49.

law enforcement and professional policing, everything else follows.

:27:49.:27:54.

The economy of New York went from being in terrible deficit to being

:27:54.:27:57.

very well positioned when crime went down because people wanted to

:27:57.:28:01.

come to New York City, conventions, tourists, businesses. That is

:28:01.:28:08.

something I think is short-sighted on the part of politicians.

:28:09.:28:11.

Tomorrow morning, Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel will meet in

:28:11.:28:14.

Paris to discuss, yet again, the European debt crisis, but this

:28:14.:28:17.

summit is set against a deep divide about the remedy. The idea of

:28:17.:28:19.

"mutualising the debt" by the creation of Eurobonds, which would

:28:20.:28:22.

radically reduce the repayment interest rates for countries such

:28:22.:28:24.

as Greece, Portugal and Spain, is favoured by Italy's Finance

:28:24.:28:27.

Minister and by the international financier, George Soros, but

:28:27.:28:29.

Germany is opposed, partly because the move could affect Germany's

:28:29.:28:33.

credit rating. In a moment, I'll be talking to the Nobel Laureate in

:28:33.:28:43.
:28:43.:28:45.

Economics, Josef Stiglitz, but first here's Madeleine Morris. On

:28:45.:28:51.

the face of it, Germans have plenty to smile about. Their economy is

:28:51.:28:56.

growing at a healthy 3%. Unemployment has dropped over the

:28:56.:29:01.

last couple of years. Exports of their manufactured goods are high.

:29:01.:29:11.
:29:11.:29:15.

Beneath these smiles, there is a worry. The party is over. We

:29:15.:29:23.

basically had a bubble. Now we are sitle sitting like we are in the

:29:23.:29:31.

aftermath of a party. 50 years ago this month the Berlin Wall went up.

:29:31.:29:36.

That great symbol of the Cold War division between east and west. Now,

:29:36.:29:40.

Germany finds itself again at the centre of a European crisis. This

:29:40.:29:45.

time, between north and south. The question for Angela Merkel and the

:29:45.:29:50.

German people is how much are they prepared to sacrifice to keep the

:29:50.:29:55.

European project on line? To help its troubled neighbours and keep

:29:55.:30:00.

the euro stable, in July Germany agreed to pay into an expanded

:30:00.:30:05.

European bail-out fund worth 440 billion euro. Angela Merkel still

:30:05.:30:09.

has to get that through the German Parliament. There are already fears

:30:09.:30:15.

that the fund won't be big enough to stop the rot. That worries

:30:15.:30:22.

Germans. Nobody can be happy. I suffer with the other people and we

:30:22.:30:31.

have fears for the future. I'm no banker. I couldn't say. You are a

:30:31.:30:39.

taxpayer? Yeah. We pay a lot of tax right now. There should be a limit

:30:39.:30:44.

to pay all this money to other countries. And then there's the

:30:44.:30:49.

question of eurobonds, debt issued by the whole eurozone instead of

:30:49.:30:56.

individual member states. Many economic high-flyers including the

:30:56.:31:00.

financer George Soros say eurobonds are necessary to save the eurozone.

:31:00.:31:05.

France and Germany have said they won't be on the agenda on Tuesday.

:31:05.:31:09.

In a Newsnight interview recorded last week, Germany's Foreign

:31:09.:31:13.

Minister explained the thinking. There are different ways of

:31:13.:31:18.

solidarity in the European Union and in the eurozone. This does not

:31:18.:31:25.

mean the necessity of eurobonds. We don't want to have a situation

:31:25.:31:29.

where the national Parliaments do not feel themselves responsibility

:31:29.:31:34.

for the budgets and for their fiscal discipline. This is what is

:31:34.:31:40.

necessary. What we are facing now is not the crisis of the euro, it

:31:40.:31:46.

is a crisis because of the debts. Angela Merkel has been accused of

:31:46.:31:51.

dithering over the crisis, neither promoting a closer fiscal union,

:31:52.:31:56.

nor cutting southern Europe loose. With polls turning against her,

:31:56.:32:00.

some commentators believe that can't go on. I would be much more

:32:00.:32:03.

in favour for the German side. We are facing a very honest discussion

:32:03.:32:09.

and we say look, we knew from the very beginning in '92, the monetary

:32:09.:32:17.

union without a fiscal entity will not function. Either we do this now

:32:18.:32:22.

- there is still the bail-out, this is sort of speaking here and acting

:32:22.:32:27.

there. This is what citizens detect as not being honest. This is the

:32:27.:32:32.

problem in terms of communication. That is where you lose faith and

:32:32.:32:37.

the voters. The political editor of the country's most popular

:32:37.:32:40.

newspaper says nothing less than the Chancellor's job is on the line.

:32:40.:32:44.

People asked, we have governments, we have Chancellor, we have a

:32:44.:32:51.

Finance Minister, what do they do about the euro crisis? If the euro

:32:51.:32:58.

crisis is fixed, she will win the next election. If it blows up, she

:32:59.:33:07.

will lose. It is easy. Even Gordon Brown has criticised Angela Merkel

:33:07.:33:09.

saying July's euro summit was a wasted opportunity. That is

:33:09.:33:12.

something Germany's Foreign Minister firmly rejects.

:33:12.:33:18.

management of the crisis is important but also to take the

:33:18.:33:23.

right consequences for the future and this is also important in our

:33:23.:33:30.

days. We are facing now a forked road for Europe and the European

:33:30.:33:36.

Union. We can decide do we go the way of less Europe, or do we go the

:33:36.:33:42.

way of more Europe? We think it is necessary to answer this crisis

:33:42.:33:49.

with more Europe which means that we have to implement of course the

:33:49.:33:55.

conclusions of July. For decades Germany has been in the driving

:33:55.:34:00.

seat of Europe but this crisis has caught it on the hop, reacting to

:34:00.:34:04.

events dictated but its southern neighbours rather than setting the

:34:04.:34:08.

agenda. The big question now facing German politicians is whether they

:34:08.:34:15.

can lead in Europe as well as keeping the German people happy?

:34:15.:34:19.

Germans are still remarkably pro- European and the country has

:34:19.:34:24.

benefited greatly from the EU. As the eurozone spins more and more

:34:24.:34:29.

out of control, the cost of their convictions is only going to rise.

:34:29.:34:32.

Joining me now live from Columbia University in New York is the

:34:32.:34:38.

economist Joseph Stiglitz. Good evening. Nice to be here. Is there

:34:38.:34:44.

any future for the euro without eurobonds? Well, I think it will be

:34:44.:34:50.

very difficult. There are other ways but the basic fact one has to

:34:50.:34:55.

come to grips with is that Europe as a whole is in very good

:34:55.:34:59.

financial position. The debt, GDP ratio is lower than the United

:34:59.:35:09.
:35:09.:35:09.

States. But with so little fiscal room in so many of the countries

:35:09.:35:16.

unless some framework like European bonds are promoted, it will be very

:35:16.:35:23.

difficult for countries like Greece or Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal,

:35:23.:35:29.

to be able to meet their financial requirements. One of the points in

:35:29.:35:34.

this discussion that has been lost is that the cost of Germany, to

:35:34.:35:44.
:35:44.:35:44.

Germany of dropping out is very large. If Germany were on its own,

:35:44.:35:50.

its exchange rate would depreciate. It's benefited enormously from the

:35:51.:36:00.

weak euro and Germany would have to pay severe consequences from the

:36:00.:36:06.

failure of others to repay their loans because they were the lenders.

:36:06.:36:11.

You heard the German Finance Minister opposed to a eurobond,

:36:11.:36:21.
:36:21.:36:21.

talking about the problem without fiscal discipline. It is like

:36:22.:36:25.

giving your teenager a credit card, the Foreign Minister said? The fact

:36:25.:36:30.

of creating a European bond framework doesn't mean that it is

:36:30.:36:34.

done without discipline. There can be limits to the amount that can be

:36:34.:36:39.

and the conditions under which these bonds get issued. Let's be

:36:39.:36:45.

frank. In effect, governments are borrowing, they are borrowing from

:36:45.:36:51.

their individual banks, private banks and then these bonds are

:36:51.:36:55.

being rediscounted by the European Central Bank. In a way, it's

:36:55.:37:00.

already happening, but in a non- transparent way. And with a lot of

:37:00.:37:03.

uncertainty about when it is going to continue, how it is going to go

:37:03.:37:10.

forward. So right now, in effect, many governments are borrowing from

:37:10.:37:16.

Europe as a whole. If there isn't some solution like a eurobond, and

:37:16.:37:22.

if Germany doesn't step up to the plate to back the euro, is it

:37:22.:37:26.

likely that we will see countries like Greece and Portugal leaving

:37:26.:37:35.

the euro? It would be better for the euro if Germany left. The

:37:35.:37:44.

consequences for restructuring debts if Greece leaves or Portugal,

:37:44.:37:50.

or Ireland, are going to be very great. There will be great

:37:50.:37:57.

complexities and restructuring debt. Much easier if Germany...

:37:57.:38:03.

Politically, it is not going to happen? The question is, if Europe

:38:03.:38:10.

decides that the only way that it is going to continue is through

:38:10.:38:14.

some solidarity funds, solidarity approaches including eurobonds, and

:38:14.:38:18.

Germany says we don't want to pay the price, then it will be Germany

:38:18.:38:25.

that will have to leave. There will be questions about the governing

:38:25.:38:32.

structure, unanimity, if everybody except Germany decide they want to

:38:32.:38:36.

create this fund, but a couple of them don't, it is not clear who is

:38:36.:38:41.

leaving and who is staying. Tell me, though, crisis meeting in July,

:38:41.:38:44.

crisis meeting tomorrow, how quickly does this have to be

:38:44.:38:54.

nailed? Well, they keep having these crisis meetings and in spite

:38:54.:39:04.
:39:04.:39:05.

of a lot of progress that they made in the July meeting, the fact is

:39:05.:39:14.

the fundamental problem, when the euro was created, it was not an

:39:14.:39:19.

optimal currency area. Other differences made it difficult for

:39:19.:39:25.

this system to work. It was only a matter of time until the

:39:25.:39:30.

difficulties of working with it as a single currency came to the fore.

:39:30.:39:39.

It is quite remarkable - the euro was only started in 2000. Its track

:39:39.:39:49.
:39:49.:39:53.

record is not that long. Thank you very much. We return to the

:39:53.:39:56.

criminality of last week and the comparisons that have been made

:39:56.:39:59.

between what are being called the feral rich and the feral poor, the

:39:59.:40:01.

greed and avariciousness of bankers, MPs fiddling their expenses, Met

:40:01.:40:04.

police officers on backhanders, and the theft from local stores by

:40:04.:40:07.

looters grabbing anything they can get their hands on. Can we equate

:40:07.:40:11.

one with the other? In a moment, I'll be speaking to the MP Stella

:40:11.:40:14.

Creasey, who has a PhD in Social Psychology, and the Editor of City

:40:14.:40:17.

AM, Alistair Heath, but first a reminder of the scandals that have

:40:17.:40:27.
:40:27.:40:58.

There was a period of remorse. That Give us our money back!

:40:58.:41:08.
:41:08.:41:09.

What is the message to your I have decided to send to the

:41:09.:41:13.

Inland Revenue a cheque which is the equivalent of what would have

:41:13.:41:17.

been paid in Capital Gains Tax had it been liable when I have moved

:41:17.:41:27.
:41:27.:41:37.

Your only motive was profit. You are not journalists? I would like

:41:37.:41:47.
:41:47.:41:50.

to say just how sorry I am and how sorry we are. I'm joined by the

:41:50.:41:55.

Labour MP Stella Creasey and by Alistair Heath. Is the culture that

:41:55.:41:58.

gave us the excess of the bankers the same that gives us the looters

:41:58.:42:05.

on the streets? No. Of course the rot at the top of our society needs

:42:05.:42:11.

to be fought. I don't think the first caused or can justify the

:42:11.:42:16.

second. In fact, it makes our job harder. We find it harder to

:42:16.:42:20.

understand why we had all of this chaos on the streets last week. It

:42:20.:42:23.

will make it harder to fight it. is reasonable to assume these

:42:23.:42:28.

looters who were stealing big televisions think if somebody can

:42:28.:42:32.

fiddle �8,000 on their expenses, if somebody can take a bonus even

:42:32.:42:36.

though RBS is losing money, why can't we have a piece of the

:42:36.:42:46.
:42:46.:42:48.

action? I think... I think that is too middle-class. If you are

:42:48.:42:52.

smashing a shop, you are not thinking about these things.

:42:52.:42:55.

that your analysis, Stella Creasey? I don't think anybody was so weak

:42:56.:43:00.

minded that the expensess crisis or the bankers were in their minds

:43:00.:43:07.

when they were stealing these TVs. It is about the signals that we

:43:07.:43:11.

send. The important of being very clear that there are sanctions for

:43:11.:43:16.

bad behaviour and in that sense, there is a commonalty in saying if

:43:16.:43:26.
:43:26.:43:27.

we have a culture and we don't put sanctions, there is a problem.

:43:27.:43:37.
:43:37.:43:49.

it morally wrong to be avaricious? How did we get here to have a

:43:49.:43:55.

society when the looters came to my area other people followed them and

:43:55.:44:00.

they thought it was OK to take trainers. That is what moral

:44:00.:44:03.

questions are about. It is about all of us understanding the

:44:03.:44:06.

consequences of people's behaviour and coming together to say these

:44:06.:44:14.

aren't the values that we want to see in our society. Those values go

:44:14.:44:21.

across every area of society? do. It is a mistake and a

:44:21.:44:27.

misunderstanding to come up with criminal explanations for the

:44:27.:44:31.

recession. We have to tackle everything. We have to tackle phone

:44:31.:44:34.

hacking, police corruption, problems in the economy. I think

:44:34.:44:39.

what we saw on the streets was very different. It was a tragic tale of

:44:39.:44:45.

this group of people who were completely alienated from society.

:44:45.:44:50.

The people on the streets, they alienate themselves, are they

:44:50.:44:55.

separate? Are they separate? In fact, Shirley Williams coined the

:44:55.:44:59.

expression "the underclass". Are you saying they are different?

:44:59.:45:04.

have become different as a result of flawed policies from both

:45:04.:45:11.

parties, from the establishment. That is where the rich are to blame.

:45:11.:45:15.

They thought chucking money at these people would make the

:45:15.:45:20.

problems go away. They were wrong. Other than that, we should make

:45:20.:45:24.

clear distinctions between looting, arson, murder and the sort of

:45:24.:45:30.

things we have seen during the "credit crunch". Redistribution,

:45:30.:45:33.

Tony Blair never worried about the gap between rich and poor.

:45:33.:45:38.

Redistribution in your book is the right thing to do if it is

:45:38.:45:42.

accompanied by better policies in general? Moral arguments allow us

:45:42.:45:48.

to do what Alistair Heath is asking us to do. So people who commit

:45:48.:45:52.

fraud and bankers who behave in ways which are morally

:45:52.:45:55.

reprehensible. The consequences of their behaviour are damaging to the

:45:55.:45:58.

rest of society. There is an important cultural debate to be had

:45:58.:46:01.

here. The Prime Minister and Ed Miliband have talked about the

:46:01.:46:06.

signals we send out, about the social norms that we want to see

:46:06.:46:11.

our society living by, values to you and me. It is right we are able

:46:11.:46:15.

to differentiate between those and criminal activities. A moral debate

:46:15.:46:19.

needs to have many people taking part in it. That is why I am

:46:19.:46:29.
:46:29.:46:31.

concerned when I hear people talk about an underclass. Thank you both

:46:31.:46:35.

very much. Tomorrow morning's front-pages. The Guardian, tough

:46:35.:46:41.

love and tougher policing: PM's solution for "Broken Britain".

:46:41.:46:49.

National Service for every teenager - in the Daily Express. The Times,

:46:49.:46:59.
:46:59.:47:01.

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