16/08/2011 Newsnight


16/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Are the sentences being handed to convicted looters too severe?


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Could this be the most compelling evidence yet of a phone hacking

:00:14.:00:21.

cover-up at News International, former royal reporter, Clive

:00:21.:00:24.

Goodman, claims hacking was discussed widely at editorial

:00:24.:00:29.

meetings, and said he was told he could keep his job if he didn't

:00:29.:00:32.

implicate the paper in court. shows how many people in the

:00:32.:00:36.

company were involved in phone hacking, a devastating piece of

:00:36.:00:39.

evidence. We will discuss what damage these allegations could do

:00:39.:00:44.

to News International and James and Rupert Murdoch. Four years for

:00:44.:00:49.

trying to incite a riot on Facebook last week. That was the sentence

:00:49.:00:54.

given to these two men in the Crown Court today. Rough justice? We ask

:00:54.:01:00.

a leading QC if the courts are getting it right? Also the

:01:00.:01:04.

extraordinary world of the 21st century slum and the lessons they

:01:04.:01:09.

hold for the west. People have built their shantys either side of

:01:09.:01:17.

this canal, it is only six feet wide in parts. We discover these

:01:17.:01:20.

Manila residents won't be cleared from their homes. We will fight,

:01:20.:01:26.

this is what we want, we will fight for our freedom. We will fight for

:01:26.:01:36.
:01:36.:01:37.

our community. According to a letter by a former News of the

:01:37.:01:41.

World reporter, and published today by a Parliamentary Committee, phone

:01:41.:01:44.

hacking was rife at the News of the World, and discussed at the daily

:01:45.:01:49.

meetings. A letter by Clive Goodman, also alleges that the editor, Andy

:01:49.:01:54.

Coulson, offered to let him keep his jop if he agreed not to

:01:54.:01:59.

implicate the paper in court. As well as evidence from a cover-up

:01:59.:02:04.

at News International, there were serious questions raised about

:02:04.:02:07.

whether James Murdoch misled parliament over his knowledge of

:02:07.:02:10.

the extent of hacking at News of the World.

:02:10.:02:14.

In the News International version of events, many details thus far

:02:14.:02:17.

have been obscured, they have maintained throughout that the then

:02:17.:02:22.

News of the World editor, Andy Coulson, and other senior figures

:02:22.:02:27.

knew nothing about widespread illegal practices at the paper.

:02:27.:02:31.

The paper's royal editor, Clive Goodman, pleaded guilty to phone

:02:31.:02:37.

hacking and in January 2007, was imprisoned for four months. In

:02:37.:02:40.

parliament, the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, has been

:02:40.:02:43.

pursuing this matter since 2003. At lunchtime today they announced they

:02:43.:02:48.

were now about to release some important new documents. Within the

:02:48.:02:53.

evidence that will be published at 1.00, there are some devastating

:02:53.:02:55.

revelations which will mean the company in general will have

:02:55.:02:59.

questions to answer. In amongst a huge shrew of

:02:59.:03:01.

documents released by the parliamentary select committee

:03:01.:03:08.

today, perhaps the most explosive is this, dated March 2007, it is

:03:08.:03:17.

from Clive Goodman, he is replying to a letter from News International

:03:17.:03:20.

telling him they are terminating his employment. He writes back with

:03:20.:03:24.

some serious allegations about just how widespread hacking was at News

:03:24.:03:30.

of the World. Mr Goodman complains the decision

:03:30.:03:33.

is inconsistent because other members of staff were carrying out

:03:33.:03:37.

the same illegal procedures. He goes on to say that the practice

:03:37.:03:41.

was widely discussed in the daily editorial conference, until

:03:41.:03:47.

explicit reference to it was banned by the editor. The editor, it is

:03:47.:03:50.

widely assumed tonight, was Andy Coulson. But further on in the

:03:50.:03:55.

letter Mr Goodman makes another, even more serious allegation. He

:03:55.:04:00.

says tomorrow Crone and the editor promised on many occasion that is

:04:00.:04:03.

he could come back to a job on the newspaper if he did not implicate

:04:03.:04:08.

the paper or any of the staff in the mitigation plea. He did not,

:04:08.:04:13.

and expected the paper to honour its promise to him. It is obviously

:04:13.:04:18.

a serious document. Elinor Goodman alleges that is in return for his

:04:18.:04:23.

sigh - Clive Goodman allege that is in return for his silence News

:04:23.:04:27.

International would look after him, and others were up to their necks

:04:27.:04:31.

in phone hacking. He also claims that the senior editor, Andy

:04:32.:04:36.

Coulson, knew what was happening. Here is the other strange thing, in

:04:36.:04:41.

amongst the huge pile of document, there was not just one version of

:04:41.:04:44.

Clive Goodman's letter to his bosses complaining about his

:04:44.:04:50.

dismissal, but two. With those serious allegation about hacking at

:04:50.:04:55.

News of the World, there came via the law firm that dealt with the

:04:55.:04:59.

unfair dismissal case. The other version had the details blacked out,

:04:59.:05:04.

in some cases missing all together. Who supplied this version to the

:05:04.:05:07.

committee? News International and James Murdoch. We asked News

:05:07.:05:10.

International to account for the discrepancy between these two

:05:10.:05:13.

versions of the letter, but couldn't get any official comment.

:05:13.:05:17.

In statement though, they told us that they recognised the

:05:17.:05:20.

seriousness that the materials disclosed and are working in a

:05:20.:05:25.

constructive and open way with all the relevant authorities.

:05:25.:05:29.

We learned today also of the payments made to Clive Goodman

:05:29.:05:39.
:05:39.:05:48.

after his dismissal by News Why pay so much, the select

:05:48.:05:52.

committee wants to know, to someone who had been convicted of a

:05:52.:05:55.

criminal offence. As a former accountant and finance director,

:05:55.:05:59.

you should always follow the cash, the cash often leads to the truth.

:05:59.:06:03.

Whether that is trying to track down payments to police, or indeed

:06:03.:06:06.

payments to employees who have been dismissed. A lot of these things do

:06:06.:06:10.

need to be answered. Within six months of that letter being written

:06:10.:06:14.

by Clive Goodman, he received over �200,000 in payments from the

:06:14.:06:18.

newsgroup, and we need to try to understand why that is. If you

:06:18.:06:22.

don't believe a word he saying, why would you go and pay all that kind

:06:22.:06:24.

of money. Some members of the select

:06:24.:06:27.

committee are concerned they may have been misled over the scale of

:06:28.:06:33.

these payments to Clive Goodman. In late 2009, Rebekah Brooks admitted

:06:33.:06:38.

written evidence to the select committee, in it she said the

:06:38.:06:42.

payment to Goodman, and there was only one, she said, was less than

:06:42.:06:47.

�60,000, plus an unspecified sum to cover his notice period.

:06:47.:06:55.

We now know the real figure was in excess of �240,000.

:06:55.:06:59.

News International was still claiming that Goodman was a lone

:06:59.:07:03.

rogue reporter, but police had more information, Glenn Mulcaire, the

:07:03.:07:07.

private investigator used by Goodman, had 1 1,000 pages of notes.

:07:07.:07:12.

Police found an exmail to someone at News of the World from - e-mail

:07:12.:07:18.

to someone at News of the World marked "for Neville ", it was a

:07:18.:07:26.

transcript of a message left on the phone of Gordon Taylor, as they

:07:26.:07:30.

were not interested in the world of football, the implication is

:07:30.:07:36.

someone else at the paper must have been involved. In April 2008 Taylor

:07:36.:07:39.

was paid several hundred thousand pounds sanctioned by James Murdoch.

:07:39.:07:44.

Mr Murdoch has told parliament and others that he was not aware of the

:07:44.:07:48.

"for Neville" e-mail at the end. When you signed off the Taylor

:07:48.:07:56.

payment, did you see, or were you made aware of the full Neville e-

:07:56.:07:59.

mail, or the transcript of the voicemail message. I was not aware

:07:59.:08:03.

of that at that time. In today's shrew of documents, a letter from

:08:03.:08:08.

Tom Crone to the select committee. Mr Crone was legal manager at News

:08:08.:08:18.
:08:18.:08:29.

of the World at the time. He The final set of revelations today

:08:29.:08:34.

has come from News International's one time law firm, Harbottle &

:08:34.:08:38.

Lewis. They were asked by News International to go through some

:08:38.:08:42.

internal e-mails to see if Clive Goodman's claim of wider knowledge

:08:42.:08:49.

of the phone hacking stood up. They said they could find no evidence.

:08:49.:08:54.

Harbottle & Lewis claimed that this information was wrongly

:08:54.:08:58.

misrepresented as a full scale inquiry. This is James Murdoch from

:08:58.:09:04.

last month. It is a key bit of legal advice from senior counsel

:09:04.:09:08.

that was provided to the company. Today the committee has written to

:09:08.:09:11.

several previous witness, including James Murdoch, posing further

:09:11.:09:14.

questions. It seems likely that many f not all will be recalled to

:09:14.:09:18.

give further evidence. We asked News International on to

:09:18.:09:22.

the programme, but they didn't want to appear. Joining me now in the

:09:22.:09:27.

studio is former News of the World editor, Paul Connew, columnist for

:09:27.:09:31.

the Mail, Stephen Glover, and from Hull, the former deputy Prime

:09:31.:09:35.

Minister, Lord Prescott. How significant do you think these

:09:35.:09:40.

letters, all these documents are in the action with News International?

:09:40.:09:43.

Very significant. It is what a lot of us have believed for a long time,

:09:43.:09:47.

though denied by Murdoch. There was a conspiracy of silence between a

:09:47.:09:52.

lot of people at the top. When I hear them now contradicting what

:09:52.:09:57.

was said, why did they keep their mouths shut when all of us were

:09:57.:10:01.

fight to go show it wasn't a one- person operation. Murdoch's

:10:01.:10:05.

business philosophy is pay them off, as much money as you can, deny the

:10:05.:10:10.

evidence, make sure it looks as only one company, and then withhold

:10:10.:10:12.

information. Murdoch press have been involved in that from the

:10:12.:10:15.

beginning when a few of us were trying to stop it. The murd mur

:10:15.:10:20.

press will deny that. We have to - the Murdoch press will deny. That

:10:20.:10:24.

we have to make clear these are allegations by Clive Goodman, he

:10:24.:10:30.

was convicted and put in prison and found guilty of a crime, but this

:10:30.:10:34.

letter is quite self-serving, you have to admit? Those of us saying

:10:34.:10:37.

there was something wrong, the police were giving us the wrong

:10:37.:10:40.

information, the PPC hadn't investigated properly. They knew

:10:40.:10:46.

they had the e-mail of 2007, which said, what he was threatening to do,

:10:46.:10:50.

he was bargaining, he got paid off, they paid the money, what did they

:10:50.:10:55.

pay that for. Paul Connew, it wasn't proven they were paying him

:10:55.:11:02.

off. They agree he was paid, you heard in the production. I think

:11:02.:11:06.

Rebekah Wade thought it was �60 though, now we hear it is up to a

:11:06.:11:11.

quarter of a million. We don't know if they were paying them off or

:11:11.:11:15.

this the notice period they were paying off. Let me bring in the

:11:15.:11:20.

studio guests in London. He went to jail and committed the

:11:20.:11:24.

offence, I don't know any other employee gets that situation.

:11:24.:11:31.

without doubt an explosive moment in this whole saga. But it depends

:11:31.:11:37.

on whether Clive Goodman's letter is accurate. Now, quite clearly he

:11:37.:11:44.

was looking for the maximum payment possible. Could there be a veiled

:11:44.:11:49.

threat in that letter? There could be. Many media observers and former

:11:49.:11:54.

editor, including myself, have been sceptical about the idea that there

:11:54.:11:57.

was a lone rogue and people didn't know what was going on. At the

:11:57.:12:03.

moment, in fact, the only person convicted it Clive Goodman. The PR

:12:03.:12:07.

disaster for News International, and it has been for some time. But

:12:07.:12:11.

they don't really know precisely what Mulcaire has got. And there

:12:11.:12:18.

has always been cover-ups internally, we don't know who has

:12:18.:12:23.

misled who inside News International. Harbottle & Lewis

:12:23.:12:26.

believe they were misled in the parliamentary commity. There is a

:12:26.:12:32.

conflict in evidence, that is the company's lawyers. It is incredibly

:12:32.:12:40.

murky, this cannot be a good day for the Murdochs? It is, and mind-

:12:40.:12:44.

boggling involved. We may think we understand it, I have to put a

:12:44.:12:49.

towel round my head and I'm meant to make a living out of this stuff.

:12:49.:12:53.

Whether the dog or the duck remotely follows what is going on,

:12:53.:12:57.

it is not a good day for the Murdochm pyre, the story has

:12:57.:13:03.

advanced a bit - Murdoch empire, the story has advanced a bit, but

:13:03.:13:07.

there are some revelations. They will ask James Murdoch to come back,

:13:07.:13:13.

he can handle himself very well, he's a very shriek, some what

:13:13.:13:23.

slippery character. Who knows what will happen. I think we are

:13:23.:13:28.

advancing towards what we know in our hearts is that the News of the

:13:28.:13:32.

World was a dysfunctional paper, and there were lots of executives

:13:32.:13:35.

who knew what was going on. didn't write that to begin with,

:13:35.:13:38.

you disbelieved all the arguments that a few of us were trying to put

:13:39.:13:44.

up. Like most of the press they ignored it. What I said, and what I

:13:44.:13:49.

still do say, is that I don't think this is the most important story in

:13:49.:13:54.

the world. Isn't it the case that because t apart from it being going

:13:54.:13:59.

on for a long time. The people that have been affected are people, by

:13:59.:14:02.

and large, are people perhaps that can fight for themselves, but

:14:02.:14:05.

actually, the wider world, the great British public is getting

:14:05.:14:10.

less and less concerned about this? I'm not sure that's true. Some of

:14:10.:14:15.

them are making contrast, if you look at Twitter, two guys have got

:14:15.:14:19.

four years for using the social network to advocate riot, terribly

:14:19.:14:24.

wrong, no doubt about it, four yirs and we have been about five years -

:14:24.:14:29.

four years, and we have been about five years trying to get a company

:14:29.:14:33.

to admit it was involved in a criminal conspiracy. I have been

:14:33.:14:37.

involved in phone-ins over the last weeks and months. What is

:14:37.:14:41.

interesting is callers are pretty evenly de divided, a lot of they

:14:41.:14:46.

will feel there is a grave danger here that politicians are looking

:14:46.:14:51.

for way to actually control the press through statutory regulation

:14:51.:14:58.

and they don't like it. They want a robust press, even one that is

:14:58.:15:03.

flawed. If the public see that wrongdoing is going unpunished, why

:15:03.:15:07.

should they have any faith? There is a crisis of confidence in the

:15:07.:15:10.

public about so many cornerstones of democracy, press, politicians,

:15:10.:15:14.

and the police. There is no reason for people, if they have been

:15:14.:15:19.

guilty of wrongdoing to get away with it by phone hacking? I'm not

:15:19.:15:22.

suggesting that. There is a real public crisis of confidence here,

:15:22.:15:27.

and it goes beyond the press, the press is part of their

:15:27.:15:34.

disillusionment at the moment. you support the PCC, its role has

:15:34.:15:39.

been abominable. They have behaved badly, but I still believe in self-

:15:40.:15:46.

regulation, but with real teeth. In fact, a recent study showed that of

:15:46.:15:55.

the 25 countries with effective free press, 21 of them had self-

:15:55.:15:58.

regulation, only four had statutory regulation, and two of those are

:15:58.:16:02.

thinking of changing it. For the public to have faith in the press

:16:02.:16:08.

again, do you think there has to be regulation, or is self-regulation

:16:08.:16:13.

sufficient? Self-regulation will have to be tightened up. When Lord

:16:13.:16:20.

Prescott rails against the PCC, they didn't have vast resources and

:16:20.:16:24.

they were lied to by people from News of the World again and again.

:16:24.:16:26.

In those circumstances it is difficult for anybody, when the

:16:26.:16:31.

wool is pulled over their eyes, to go on. Where do you think it will

:16:31.:16:35.

go on from here, we know letters have been issued for clarification,

:16:35.:16:40.

and we know there will be more sittings on the 6th September. Are

:16:40.:16:45.

you saying you will keep pushing away at this for as long as it

:16:45.:16:48.

takes? I am pushing away at the courts, with the judicial review,

:16:48.:16:51.

the police didn't carry out their proper job. I want the courts to

:16:51.:16:54.

bring them in and explain why they didn't look at the evidence. What

:16:54.:16:58.

was the influence with the Murdoch press, I'm in that battle with one

:16:58.:17:04.

or two others. The PPC, we should have taken the 1997 solution, which

:17:04.:17:09.

was opposed by the press, was still a form of regulation but had

:17:09.:17:13.

sanctions. That is the way forward to guarantee some accountability of

:17:13.:17:18.

a press that is, frankly, out of control. Let's look at the what ifs,

:17:18.:17:23.

if it is found that James Murdoch did mislead parliament, is it

:17:23.:17:26.

conceivable he could run any part of the Murdoch empire? I don't

:17:27.:17:29.

think so, if that was established beyond doubt, that would be the end

:17:29.:17:35.

of James Murdoch. There is a wider question any way as to whether

:17:35.:17:37.

Rupert Murdoch will maintain control over the empire. A lot of

:17:37.:17:42.

people in New York don't like the fuss, who don't regard the British

:17:42.:17:48.

newspapers as particularly important, and think that Mr

:17:48.:17:52.

Murdoch is too involved. biographer has been talking about

:17:53.:17:57.

the fact that Rupert Murdoch is ready to sell News International?

:17:58.:18:02.

think James Murdoch's position, should Colin Myler and Tom Crone

:18:02.:18:07.

version be correct, then obviously he's an untenable position, and

:18:07.:18:11.

even Rupert Murdoch won't be able to...Why Didn't they say it before,

:18:11.:18:15.

when this is going on for years, Mr Myler said he inspected all the

:18:15.:18:19.

evidence and e-mails and he could say there is no other fd. He said

:18:19.:18:24.

that then when he - evidence, he said that then when he must have

:18:24.:18:29.

known that information? There is a dispute over who saw what. That is

:18:29.:18:34.

one of the great mysteries. It is unedifying when everyone is

:18:34.:18:40.

scrabling to save their skins? Absolutely, the other point is the

:18:40.:18:46.

public are very quick to point out it was the press that has actually

:18:46.:18:51.

exposed the phone hacking scandal. You mean the Guardian. The rest of

:18:51.:18:55.

the press kept quiet about it. Before we finish this conversation,

:18:55.:18:59.

I would like to bring one person's name into the frame who hasn't been

:18:59.:19:03.

discussed tonight, that is Coulson. Again, these are just allegations,

:19:03.:19:07.

for Andy Coulson this is extremely bad day? Yes, and for David Cameron

:19:08.:19:14.

too. A lot of people felt it was hostage to fortune with that

:19:14.:19:18.

appointment. Whether Andy Coulson is guilty of anything or not, it

:19:18.:19:23.

was still a very risky decision, and David Cameron must be rueing it

:19:23.:19:28.

tonight. Even if Coulson turns out to be innocent, and he is until

:19:28.:19:33.

proved guilty, we can all say it was a bad misjudgment on Mr

:19:33.:19:37.

Cameron's part. There were people telling him, I wrote to him in 2009

:19:37.:19:42.

in July saying it is unwise to appoint Coulson, I said you were

:19:42.:19:45.

the opposition at the time, and if you come into Government and

:19:45.:19:49.

appoint him as a civil servant, that would be terribly brong and

:19:49.:19:55.

reflect on his judgment. 2009 - wrong and will reflect on his

:19:55.:19:58.

judgment. It is beginning to do that now. The sentencing of people

:19:58.:20:03.

involved in the criminal rioting and damaging last week is carrying

:20:03.:20:09.

on. Two young men received a custodial sentence, after they used

:20:09.:20:15.

to Facebook to try to incite disorder in Warrington.

:20:15.:20:20.

The men of previous good character are going to jail for four years.

:20:20.:20:27.

Does the punishment fit the crime or are the judges overreacting to

:20:27.:20:33.

the riots. Here is our report.

:20:33.:20:39.

Justice has been swift, sentences stiff, the Government's tough

:20:39.:20:42.

rhetoric, matched by tough decisions from the courts. Today

:20:42.:20:47.

these two men were jailed for four years each, or inciting disorder on

:20:47.:20:51.

Facebook. Neither had previous convictions and no riots actually

:20:51.:20:56.

took place. The police had been monitoring what was being posted.

:20:56.:21:00.

The Assistant Chief Constable of Cheshire Police said tonight that

:21:00.:21:05.

social media had been used to incite behaviour that would strike

:21:05.:21:09.

fear into communities, the sentences are meant as a deterrent.

:21:09.:21:16.

In the wake of last week's looting, it is alleged that magistrates are

:21:16.:21:21.

to disregard normal guidelines and issue tougher sentences than they

:21:21.:21:24.

normally would. This is Hackney last week, looters running riot.

:21:24.:21:29.

Today, as you see, life is pretty much back to normal here. But

:21:29.:21:34.

plenty of young people now face court that has been sitting through

:21:34.:21:39.

the night and weekends. Unprecedented times, but are the

:21:39.:21:42.

sentences being meted out commensurate with the crimes.

:21:42.:21:48.

Government is taking it a bit too far. Giving people custodial

:21:48.:21:52.

sentences for theft, because it is actually theft, it is not burglary,

:21:52.:21:57.

and I think it is ridiculous, it is over the top. What the Government

:21:57.:22:01.

is trying to do is send a message out to all the other people so it

:22:01.:22:06.

doesn't happen again. I think some of them are too harsh, I heard a

:22:06.:22:10.

boy got sentenced for six months for stealing water worth �3.50.

:22:10.:22:14.

That is too harsh. I understand they should be punished. It is a

:22:14.:22:19.

bit extra really. It is not the bottle of water, but what you would

:22:19.:22:24.

have had, the effect it would have had on the people inside.

:22:24.:22:27.

support very strong sentences? if it will be a deterrent.

:22:27.:22:31.

Others told us the looters should be made to clear up what they have

:22:31.:22:35.

broken rather than be put behind bars, and not surprisingly

:22:35.:22:41.

differences of opinions here are echoed far way in the Westminster

:22:41.:22:44.

world. There are cases where offenders who have committed

:22:44.:22:48.

serious crimes should expect very serious sentences, that is what I

:22:48.:22:52.

expect to happen. But there have been some case where is people who

:22:52.:22:57.

have committed petty offences have received sentences which, if they

:22:57.:23:01.

had committed the same offence a day before the riots they would not

:23:01.:23:05.

have received a sentence of that nature. I think we need to be very

:23:05.:23:11.

careful of that, that this should be about restorative justice, in

:23:11.:23:14.

other words making people acknowledge the offences they have

:23:14.:23:18.

committed and preferably if the victims wanted, to actually sit

:23:18.:23:21.

down, face-to-face with the victims to hear from the victims the impact

:23:21.:23:26.

they have had, but it should not be about retribution. This is one of

:23:26.:23:31.

the most memorable images of what what happened in England last week,

:23:31.:23:36.

a furniture store in Croydon in flames. The MP for the area has

:23:36.:23:39.

strong views about how to proceed. We are seeing the sentencing people

:23:39.:23:43.

have wanted to see for years. I sent out an e-mail to all the

:23:43.:23:46.

people in my constituency that I have an e-mail address for, on

:23:46.:23:51.

Tuesday, I had over 1300 responses, there was a virtual unanimity that

:23:51.:23:56.

people wanted the courts to get tough with the people that caused

:23:56.:24:01.

the terrible criminality in Croydon. It will help people restore

:24:01.:24:05.

confidence in the justice system, and send out a clear message that

:24:05.:24:11.

this kind of disorder will not be tolerated. Over 1,000 people have

:24:11.:24:16.

appeared before the courts. With many more still to be processed,

:24:16.:24:19.

the controversy will continue over how they should be treated.

:24:19.:24:28.

I'm joined by the leading criminal barrister, John Cooper QC, and the

:24:28.:24:32.

Conservative MP for Stourbridge. The two men inciting violence, four

:24:32.:24:36.

years, a good decision? I wouldn't want to second guess the court and

:24:36.:24:39.

the judge. I wouldn't challenge the decision. The young men involved

:24:39.:24:43.

were inciting a riot, trying to organise a sort of mayhem that we

:24:43.:24:47.

saw on the streets eight nights ago in Salford. Which would have put

:24:47.:24:50.

lives at risk. And at the very least they distracted the police

:24:50.:24:55.

from trying to deal with that crisis. They put a lot of fear into

:24:55.:25:00.

people. At least one of them turned up at the site with full intention

:25:00.:25:05.

to steal and loot. Four years a reasonable sentence for that?

:25:05.:25:10.

I do think so, yes. A reasonable sentence, it was a serious crime,

:25:10.:25:13.

if they had incited violence there could have been mayhem, injuries

:25:13.:25:18.

and a lot of looting? All offences are serious offences, nothing I

:25:18.:25:22.

have to say can take-away from that. This sentence in my view is over

:25:22.:25:26.

the top. I anticipate it going to the Court of Appeal, and probably

:25:26.:25:29.

being overturned there. A lot of these sentence also they go to the

:25:29.:25:34.

Court of Appeal? I anticipate a lot will. What we need to remember is

:25:34.:25:39.

there is a protocol for sentencing, there are rules and procedures in

:25:39.:25:41.

sentencing which make them effective and fair. What we can't

:25:41.:25:45.

do, in my view, in situations like this, is suddenly throw the

:25:45.:25:50.

rulebook away, simply because there is a groundswell of opinion. We

:25:50.:25:54.

don't sentence people by virtue of a reality television programme or

:25:55.:26:01.

an X-factor, your contributor earlier on, one of the MPs, said he

:26:01.:26:06.

had contacted all his constituents and this is what they think. If

:26:06.:26:12.

sentences were based on that it would be a great reality TV show

:26:12.:26:16.

but not great justice. You are saying earlier on the judges are

:26:16.:26:20.

becoming hysterical, it sounds like a lot of people are hugely charged

:26:20.:26:25.

up and no wonder, in a way, because of the atmosphere? I don't think it

:26:25.:26:29.

is an overreaction, I think this time a week ago, eight or nine

:26:29.:26:34.

nights ago, this country was in had a terrible state. People lost their

:26:34.:26:38.

lives. Police were faced with unprecedented levels of violence

:26:38.:26:44.

from a mob. People were just going in and helping themselves to things.

:26:44.:26:49.

Certainly, in my lifetime, I don't think I have ever been as shocked

:26:49.:26:55.

and ashamed by anything in this country. Is the atmosphere

:26:55.:26:59.

different to before the riot, and you were talking about discounting

:26:59.:27:02.

sentencing in your own party, but people going for the maximum

:27:03.:27:06.

sentences, and you want judges to go for that? I have certainly

:27:06.:27:10.

argued for that, I respect your point that it is not up to the

:27:10.:27:14.

public or MPs as to what is a sentence in the court of law. I

:27:14.:27:19.

would hope that judges would air on the side of severity for cases like

:27:19.:27:23.

this. It is not for anyone else but the judges or the magistrates to

:27:23.:27:28.

make these decisions. When we hear that Government are telling judges

:27:28.:27:35.

and magistrates to sentence on a wholly different set of priorities.

:27:35.:27:39.

There is direction coming from the clerks of the court, but not

:27:39.:27:43.

politicians? Certainly there is a suggestion that an indication has

:27:43.:27:46.

been given. I certainly haven't heard the Home Secretary, the

:27:46.:27:49.

Justice Secretary or the Prime Minister try to second guess the

:27:49.:27:53.

courts and tell them what they should be doing. That is reashuergs

:27:53.:27:59.

to hear that, I am reassured. You were talking about the MPs

:27:59.:28:05.

hearing from constituents, isn't the job of MPs to reflect the

:28:05.:28:08.

public mood. If people are feeling insecure and feeling people should

:28:08.:28:14.

be put away for crimes, that if they are not put away for, may

:28:14.:28:17.

commit again quickly, you can understand why people feel insecure

:28:17.:28:21.

at the moment? I can absolutely understand why people feel insecure,

:28:21.:28:25.

and the emotion barely a woke after it happened, but it is part and

:28:25.:28:30.

process of the legal procedure to take a step back from this, and

:28:30.:28:33.

make sure justice administered isn't quick justice, but sound

:28:33.:28:37.

justice. Another point I would like to make. A lot of people at the

:28:37.:28:41.

moment who have been arrested, who would normally get bail, are not

:28:41.:28:46.

being given bail, but being held in custody, for reasons no other than

:28:46.:28:51.

the public mood is up. I think the reason is that they have taken part

:28:51.:28:55.

in a riot and put lives at risk. There is a difference between going

:28:55.:28:59.

into a shop and shoplifting something, that is a serious crime

:28:59.:29:03.

in itself, it is different to using violence and mayhem to create that

:29:03.:29:09.

opportunity. Some of these people haven't. Do you think we are in an

:29:09.:29:14.

atmosphere where you should revisit sentencing and make it tougher, and

:29:14.:29:17.

the road the Conservative Government started down was the

:29:17.:29:23.

wrong one, discounting sentences for a guilty plea? That was a

:29:23.:29:27.

consultation that the Government decided to not proceed with. I

:29:27.:29:34.

think we all know there is an issue with jail spaces, and the early

:29:34.:29:38.

guilty plea does have merit, and it is a current policy. But there was

:29:38.:29:43.

a feeling that 50% reduction was a step too far. Do you seriously

:29:43.:29:47.

think now, that people, the mood in the country is for tougher

:29:47.:29:51.

sentences? I think the mood in the country is for tougher sentences

:29:51.:29:55.

than we have had for many years. I don't think this is a product of

:29:55.:29:59.

the riots just. I want to make one point, one of the people on the

:29:59.:30:03.

preamble were talking rightly about restorative justice, and community

:30:03.:30:10.

payback. Cleaning up the mess they have created. These things are not,

:30:10.:30:13.

they don't contradict a prison sentence. There is no reason why

:30:13.:30:18.

you shouldn't serve some time in prison, and also give the victims

:30:18.:30:25.

of your crime restorative justice. It is estimated around one billion

:30:25.:30:29.

people live in shantytowns all over the developing world. That number

:30:29.:30:37.

is predcted to double by 2050. We are familiar with the slums in slum

:30:37.:30:43.

dwellings, at risk by typhoon and flood. There is a feeling that the

:30:43.:30:48.

shantys have a lot of positive aspects that we in the rich west

:30:48.:30:54.

could learn from. We enter the extraordinary lab brint world where

:30:54.:30:59.

people koufrpb - lab brint world where people often spend the whole

:30:59.:31:05.

of their lives. This is the Rice Belt of the Philippines, it is

:31:06.:31:10.

illusion, calm, idyllic. But more than one million people a year are

:31:10.:31:20.
:31:20.:31:21.

leaving it. Poverty, climate change and a population boom are pushing

:31:21.:31:30.

people off the land. The places they end up in look like this.

:31:30.:31:36.

Half Manila's population live in slums. And the new global orthodoxy

:31:36.:31:42.

in urban planning says that is good. Slums are now Lorded as models of

:31:42.:31:47.

cohesion and sustainability. But here, they are the frontline in war

:31:47.:31:55.

between the rich and poor. They always look down on us as if we are

:31:55.:32:00.

just like a little on their eyes. They always refer to us as the

:32:00.:32:10.
:32:10.:32:13.

eyesore of the society. This is the Estero de San Miguel.

:32:13.:32:23.

It is 600ms long, 600 families live on either side. Though it looks

:32:23.:32:27.

utterly temporary, it is decades old, and so is the pofrpt of those

:32:27.:32:32.

who live here. - poverty of those who live here. Mina, who has made

:32:32.:32:38.

her home in the slum, is about to show me how people survive here.

:32:38.:32:42.

And though I have been in slums before, I have never seen anywhere

:32:42.:32:52.
:32:52.:32:52.

like this. It is like a mine. Just a tunnel, dark tunnel, and just

:32:52.:33:00.

people live off it, like a mine. The tunnel, less than four feet

:33:00.:33:08.

wide is the centre of their world. This is the queue for the bathroom.

:33:08.:33:18.
:33:18.:33:20.

And this, the playground. This is the public space. And as for the

:33:21.:33:30.
:33:31.:33:33.

private space? There is very little. So this is where you live.

:33:33.:33:37.

Three adults, a teenager and a child live here. It is clean, but

:33:37.:33:42.

the sleeping arrangements are cramped. Where do you sleep,

:33:42.:33:48.

upstairs? There. You sleep on the floor there. I sleep up, and

:33:48.:33:52.

husband and wife sleep there. while for some people, slums are

:33:52.:33:57.

just one stage on the root out of poverty, here most people are

:33:57.:34:07.
:34:07.:34:10.

trapped. 20 years. You have been here 20 years. In this house?

:34:10.:34:15.

As I get further into the Estero de San Miguel, it is like seeing the

:34:15.:34:21.

worst of 18th century Europe. But why does this survive alongside

:34:21.:34:25.

skyscrapers, that, really, is the question I'm here to answer. There

:34:25.:34:30.

is a theory in the world that we can all learn from places like this,

:34:30.:34:37.

informal settlements, or slums, as we call them, it is true, there is

:34:37.:34:42.

social cohesion, and entrepeneurship, because if they

:34:42.:34:47.

didn't they would die. They are living inches from canal full of

:34:47.:34:50.

sewage, into which sewage is being thrown. I can't help thinking that

:34:50.:34:55.

the whole theory is a bit of a coppout. Why was it that the

:34:55.:34:58.

Industrial Revolution was able to clear places like this within a

:34:58.:35:03.

generation. And yet, in it the era of globalisation, we seem content

:35:03.:35:08.

to tinker with it. As I'm about to learn the answer is not simple,

:35:08.:35:12.

because without slum dwellers, many of our global megacities couldn't

:35:12.:35:19.

function at all. Clean your house, drive your car,

:35:19.:35:25.

clean your garden, take care of your baby, and if these people get

:35:25.:35:35.
:35:35.:35:39.

out of the city the city will die. In a slum called Payatas, right

:35:39.:35:46.

next to a mountain of gash an, imcome to meet Father Nobilo, he

:35:46.:35:53.

thinks the slums are unclearable. In an age of scarce resources,

:35:53.:35:59.

there are lessons here for all of us. You don't need more as a human

:35:59.:36:04.

being to live. Because of the imbalance of having and not having

:36:04.:36:10.

is really vast, so what can we learn not only by the rich, but by

:36:10.:36:17.

everybody, how can you survive and manage scarcity and do little and

:36:17.:36:23.

do something. - have little and do something. What you notice in the

:36:23.:36:28.

slum is how organised things are, sports teams, church, women's

:36:28.:36:35.

groups, even the water fights have rules. Being in a place like this

:36:35.:36:39.

is a process of stripping away illusions, first that it is

:36:39.:36:42.

horrible, because it isn't. Second, that the women's groups and the

:36:42.:36:47.

Credit Unions can sort it all, because they can't. The fundamental

:36:47.:36:52.

problem is that in an era of land hunger, 98% of the people who live

:36:52.:36:57.

here, don't have the right to. And the Filipino Government has decided

:36:57.:37:02.

to clear half a million slum dwellers out of the city by force,

:37:02.:37:06.

if necessary. You really want live well if you smell sewage, how can

:37:06.:37:16.
:37:16.:37:26.

you live well. Attention river warriors.

:37:26.:37:33.

The baby's water is clean. Meet Gina Lopez, she's on a mission to

:37:33.:37:39.

clear Manila's water slums and bring the rivers back to life.

:37:40.:37:45.

Her charity, the River Warriors, recruits local people to clear the

:37:46.:37:51.

slums, lay drains and patrol the place, to maintain order. Security

:37:51.:37:56.

around Gina is tight, because she's part of a powerful business family.

:37:56.:38:03.

They own the energy company, the main TV station, large chunks of

:38:03.:38:10.

downtown be Manila, she take as traditional view on slum clearance.

:38:10.:38:13.

There is a theory among some policy makers in the world, that we have

:38:13.:38:18.

to live with slums and accept slums. I don't agree, exclammation point,

:38:18.:38:24.

underlined and circled. No way, no way. Why does anyone have to live

:38:24.:38:29.

like that. I don't think any city can ever come up to its fullest

:38:29.:38:34.

potential if there are slums and people living like that. But, there

:38:34.:38:39.

is a problem, the clearance is compulsory, and once they have been

:38:39.:38:42.

cleared, some people have been coming back. Because, cities are

:38:42.:38:51.

where the jobs are. In Gina's helicopter, and with

:38:51.:38:54.

Gina's Chief-of-Staff, I'm off to see the place the slum dwellers

:38:54.:39:00.

have been moved to. It is 30 minutes, as the chopper flies, but

:39:00.:39:10.
:39:10.:39:11.

more than four hours by road. Here density is not a problem. The

:39:11.:39:15.

problem is, there is no mains electricity, no prospect of ever

:39:15.:39:22.

getting any, and there are no jobs. The market traders have time to

:39:22.:39:32.
:39:32.:39:51.

Come and visit Reuben, he came from the slum. Can I come in? Reuben

:39:51.:39:55.

came here straight from Estero de San Miguel. He likes it, the house

:39:55.:40:01.

is bright and solid, but there is still a problem. TRANSLATION:

:40:01.:40:06.

need factories here, people still go back to Manila to find work. We

:40:06.:40:11.

try very hard to earn money. Because if you don't, we could die

:40:11.:40:14.

of hunger. The Government accepts this is not ideal, but they are

:40:14.:40:24.

determined to go on demolishing the slums. Next on the list for

:40:24.:40:29.

clearance is the slum I first visited, Estero de San Miguel,

:40:29.:40:38.

where Mina has invited me back after dark. It is amazing, we're on

:40:38.:40:45.

a bridge, a yard wide, and here, people have built their shan'ties

:40:45.:40:50.

either side of this canal - shantys, either side of this canal, it is

:40:50.:40:57.

only six feet wide in parts. I love the people in this place, but how

:40:57.:41:06.

on earth do people survive? I think that is the ability of the

:41:06.:41:13.

Filipinos to be very adaptive. longer I stay in this place, the

:41:13.:41:17.

more my revulsion at the way people have to live gives way to my

:41:17.:41:23.

admiration of how they do it. And the tunnel itself is full of

:41:23.:41:29.

surprises. How is business, how is the shop going? She just graduated

:41:29.:41:35.

from college. You graduated from college, which college? Iris. Tech

:41:35.:41:45.
:41:45.:41:48.

college kal institute. What did you study? Business administration.

:41:48.:41:56.

is doing my head in, I'm in economic, and I'm talking to a

:41:56.:42:01.

business graduate here. What do you think about the people who want to

:42:01.:42:07.

clear it out? The people who want to demolish us here, please don't

:42:07.:42:13.

do that, because...The Gist of it is we have invested all our money

:42:13.:42:18.

here, we like it here and it is all we really know. You have lived here

:42:18.:42:22.

from birth? Yes. Congratulations to you, many people could not do this.

:42:22.:42:32.
:42:32.:42:32.

Thank you all, good luck with your shop. What is your name? Anis.

:42:33.:42:39.

I'm interested in all these guys in these uniforms, who are they?

:42:39.:42:45.

are my local councillors, and police officers. Police officers?

:42:45.:42:53.

They live also here. Who recruits them? Me. I organise them. I have

:42:53.:42:58.

20 local police. They have all got sticks.

:42:58.:43:02.

One of their main jobs is to protect the slum against arson,

:43:02.:43:09.

because, places resisting demoligs have a strange habit of get -

:43:09.:43:14.

demolition, have a strange habit of getting burned to the ground. I'm

:43:14.:43:19.

stood in the middle of a three-foot wide canal, eight dwellings either

:43:19.:43:24.

side of it, what is this? This is a computer shop. A computer shop in

:43:24.:43:32.

the middle of here? Yes, Sir. have, one, two, three, four, five,

:43:32.:43:39.

six, seven screens, somebody's on Facebook. Somebody's playing poker,

:43:40.:43:43.

and I'm gradually understanding how this settlement is liveable for

:43:43.:43:49.

people. In the space of 100ms, I have met

:43:49.:43:53.

three graduates, a semi-official police force and the social media

:43:53.:43:57.

revolution. With so much invested in this place, social capital,

:43:58.:44:04.

Tennessee, money, there is no - tennancy, money, there is no

:44:04.:44:07.

surprise why they don't want to leave. What will you do? We will

:44:08.:44:12.

barricade, we will fight for it, this is what they want, we will

:44:12.:44:19.

fight for our community. Some architects now think we can learn

:44:19.:44:27.

from slum, afterall, they are human habitats designed without the help

:44:27.:44:32.

of politicians. The measures of zoning and formallised urban

:44:32.:44:42.
:44:42.:44:43.

planning, it fragmented our society. This is a world famous architect

:44:43.:44:47.

who wants to rebuild the Estero de San Miguel, based on the way the

:44:47.:44:53.

land is divided up at present. bridge to connect both

:44:53.:44:57.

neighbourhoods across the canal. That is an optimistic vision

:44:57.:45:01.

compared to what it looks like now. The slum dwellers support the

:45:01.:45:07.

scheme, and the plans are ready and the Government says it is too

:45:07.:45:13.

expensive. Would it not be better to clear it, however painful it is

:45:13.:45:20.

for them, would it not be better to clear it and start again? Since we

:45:20.:45:25.

have become an independent country it is the wrong policy, slum

:45:25.:45:28.

upgrading uproots them from the community. It is also a problem

:45:28.:45:34.

because they keep coming back, they are not assured of jobs where they

:45:34.:45:37.

are relocated. For now that is the approach, the fate of 6,000 people

:45:37.:45:44.

hangs in the balance. We used to think these place would

:45:44.:45:49.

disappear as the world developed. Instead, they have grown. With

:45:49.:45:54.

technology and education, people have found new ways to live in them.

:45:54.:46:03.

And millions of people are heading for them all across the world.

:46:03.:46:13.
:46:13.:46:28.

That's all from Newsnight tonight, we leave you with the news that the

:46:28.:46:33.

iconic Chelsea Hotel in New York, which inspired residents such as

:46:33.:46:43.
:46:43.:46:44.

Bob Dylan, and others, is being gentrified, to the horror of the

:46:44.:46:50.

Manhattan community, the sign says they are no longer taking

:46:50.:46:53.

reservations. # I remember you were in the

:46:53.:46:58.

Chelsea Hotel # We were talking so brave and so

:46:58.:47:04.

As the conviction and sentencing of people involved in the criminal damage and looting last week continues, questions are being asked as to whether the punishments fit the crimes. With Kirsty Wark.