17/08/2011 Newsnight


17/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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A year ago, the Government trumpetted plans for a

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rehabilitation revolution, now David Cameron's praising judges for

:00:12.:00:17.

handing down harsh sentences. But can the system cope with the sea

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change. Newsnight has learned that one council is having to use the

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Premier Inn hotel chain, to accommodate young offenders on

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remand. I'm very much taken aback by this. I don't think the lawyers

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or the community at large, when they learn that a local authority

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takes into the care and custody young people that the next step for

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that young person is say Premier Inn. I will ask the former Home

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Secretary, Jack Straw, what he makes of all this. The Work and

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Pensions minister says Britain is in the last chance saloon when it

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comes to solving this social crisis. But unemployment has gone up today,

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and stands at nearly 2.5 million. The Employment Minister is here to

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answer criticisms that Britain is not working.

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Also tonight, why was Gloucester a charming Cathedral City shaken by

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the riots. I have travelled extensively and go to London a lot,

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and feel more at threat in Gloucester than any other city in

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the country. And is the best way for women to

:01:23.:01:28.

get ahead, to lose weight and look sexy, a controversial new book

:01:28.:01:32.

argues so-called erotic capital is an asset females should exploit.

:01:32.:01:42.
:01:42.:01:46.

The author is here to argue her Good evening, as of tonight, 1,297

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riot-related cases have gone through the courts. And 65% of

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those in the dock have been remanded in custody. But can the

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prison system cope, and does the justice system, already under the

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strain of 25% cuts, have the budget for this sudden spike in cases. It

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was only a few months ago that the Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke,

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hailed a new rehabilitation revolution, and as described

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prisoners in outdated facilities. It turned out before the riots, one

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local authority has had to warehouse at least one alleged

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offender in a budget hotel chain. I think we are being too lenient.

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It is perfectly reasonable for the courts to take the view that these

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sentences should be at the tougher end of the spectrum. The mood is

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clear, the public wants tough sentences for those involved in

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last week's looting. So six months for stealing a bottle of water it

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is. And from the Prime Minister, nothing but support for the courts.

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I think it is right that we should allow the courts to make decisions

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about sentencing. You weren't sitting in the court, I wasn't

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sitting in the court, we didn't hear the evidence, they decided in

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that court to send a tough sentence and message and it is very good

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courts feel able to do. That what happened on the streets was

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absolutely appalling behaviour, to send a very clear message that it

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is wrong and won't be tolerated is what the criminal justice system

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should be doing. How will this square with the Government's long-

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term plans to cut the prison population, and the budgets much

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courts and Legal Aid. Over the next four years the Ministry of Justice

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needs to shed a quarter of its costs to meet Government spending

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targets. What's more the Secretary of State for Justice is on record

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as saying he doesn't think jail always works. This was the Justice

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Secretary in a major speech last year on sentencing reform. Just

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banging up more and more people for longer, without actively seeking

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toe change them is, in my opinion, what would you expect of Vic

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Toryian England. And it is time we dk Victorian England, and it is

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time to focus on today's communities. Too often prison has

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proved a costly and ineffectual approach that fails to turn

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criminals into law-abiding citizens. It was an abrupt change in Tory

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policy, rather than the prison works approach of the 1980s, the

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new Justice Secretary actually wanted to cut prison numbers by

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3,000. The approach is bourne out of philosophy but also cold hard

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numbers. To keep a male in prison for a year, costs �40,000, sending

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him there costs �30 though in court costs. Currently in England and

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Wales there are 8 6,000 people detained at Her Majesty's pleasure,

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just 2,000 short of operational capacity. So far there have been

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1300 riot-related cases heard, two- thirds of the alleged offenders

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have been remanded in custody. In Ealing, one of the centres of the

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riots, the local Tory MP believes the Government may need to look

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again at its budget cuts to justice. The Prime Minister made it very

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clear in the House of Commons last week, when he was asked about this,

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that it is for the judges to decide on sentences, if they decide to

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send people to prison it is the Government's obligation to provide

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prison places for people. How will the Government do that if it needs

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to quarter the budget of the ministry? There are other things

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being looked at, not just prison place, we are looking at things

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like Legal Aid and all sorts of other things as well. Not just

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prison places. My view is, if we need to keep for prison places we

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need to do that. Today Newsnight has new evidence of the pressures

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on the criminal justice system. We have learned that Richmond Council

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has used a west London branch of the Premer in Inn, hotel - the

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Premier Inn hotel chain to house a prisoner on remand. The council

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wouldn't confirm how long the youth stayed there. Wefrpb we asked the

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hotel were they aware of the The revelation has shocked a

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leading criminal barrister. very much taken aback by this, I

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don't think either lawyers or indeed the community at large, when

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they learn that a local authority takes into the care and custody

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young people, that the next step for that young person is say

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Premier Inn, I'm surprised, I put it so far as being flabbergasted to

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hear this. Both the Ministry for Justice and the department for

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local communities say it is matter for the council.

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Balancing the public mood for justice, as well as the budget, is

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now the dilemma facing the coalition. But a prison reform

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group says we should also be thinking about what works the

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Particularly for short prison sentence, versus community

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sentences, where there is fair comparison in terms of the type of

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person that might be doing the sentence, and the type of offences

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they have done, the reoffending rates are sharp, almost two-thirds

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will go on to reoffend, half of that on community sentences

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reoffend. But that's not what the public

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wants for now. The last ten days have seen extraordinary shifts in

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the demand for tough crime policies. Whether the Government can deliver

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that long-term is a question no-one is answering at the moment. We

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asked to speak to someone from the Ministry of Justice, but was told

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nobody was available. Joining us now from Manchester is the former

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Justice Secretary and Home Secretary, Jack Straw. First of all,

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what's your reaction to the news that Richmond council used Premier

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Inn, to house an alleged offender on remand. I find it extraordinary,

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I'm not sure it is lawful. If an offender whether under 18 or over

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18, is remanded in custody there are very strict rules about the

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circumstances in which they are kept in a room from which they

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can't take any escape, that is certainly not Premier Inn, so

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Richmond Council have to do a great deal of explaining. Their silence

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this evening, their refusal to offer any explanation of this

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practice, underlines the fact that this is an indefensible practice

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itself. Is there any situation that you can think that would make it a

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justifiable decision? No, I have never heard of this, there are

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circumstances in which someone may be remanded on bail, on conditions,

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and for example an authority can't find a bail hostel so they put them

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somewhere else, an equivalent. In that case they would obviously make

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sure there was an arrangement made with the owners of that premises,

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which in the case of the hotel hasn't happened. What do you make

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of the fact that Premier Inn was completely ignorant of what's

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happening? I share astonishment in this. Presumably, it would mean

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that Premier Inn correction easily have put a guest in the next room?

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Of course they comfortable the whole thing is bizarre as well as

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extraordinary. Richmond Council, and by the way, a senior Liberal

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Democrat minister is, Vince Cable, is a member of parliament for one

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of the two Richmond constituent circumstance he too needs to

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explain what on earth is going on. You talked about the fact you think

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there are pretty strong rules in place, but the Ministry of Justice,

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the Department of Local Government, it is not matter for them surely,

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rather than a council to determine the rules. Is this not something

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central Government should be very clear on? Of course, I was

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reflecting when I heard that statement, the minister for justice

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said this is something for the local authority. It isn't, there

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are self-evidently in any civilised society, strict rules about whether,

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particularly juveniles, should be sent into custody, and if they are,

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the circumstances, the physical circumstances, the arrangement for

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their supervision. By the way, I'm also very surprised that Richmond

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Council apparently thought it was necessary to send this juvenile

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into the Premier Inn, as an alternative to a proper, licensed,

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secure establishment. Because in the last two or three years, the

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number of places for under 18, under 18 prisoners in secure

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establishments, that are being used, has dropped significantly. There

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has been a great deal of slack in the system. At the moment

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presumably there isn't slack in the criminal justice system per se,

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what should be done about that? so much. That I was looking at the

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Ministry of Justice website before I came out, they were boasting

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about the fact they had 2,500 spare place, even up to what is called

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the operational capacity, there is margin above that, because of the

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building programme. That is the building programme that, frankly, I

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got going, Ken Clarke has cancelled all of that programme that he can.

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On this issue, Wii you started, the so-called rehabilitation revolution,

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we are all in favour of improving rehabilitation of persistent

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offenders, the glib statement about the prison reformers, comparing

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community punishments and comparing the reoffending rate with those on

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short-term sentences won't wash. It is baloney, 96% of those who go to

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prison for a short-term sentence have been tried on a community

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punishment and failed, and three quarters of them, have seven or

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more sets of convictions. Now not only are we seeing at the moment

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this spike, because all these cases are going through the courts. 5%

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are on remand. Do you detect that is reflective of a mood in the

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community which the Government has picked up on. A mood that people

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are feeling themselves much tougher about this? Yes, look, prison is

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the punishment of last resort. Where you have and have, as we had

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a week ago, gangs taking the law into their own hands, becoming an

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arky on the streets, and make - anarchy on the streets and the

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state has to clamp down on that. That will cost money, not only for

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all the people who may end up on jail, but all the appeals that may

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be heard, how will that be paid, considering a 5% cut in the justice

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system? - a 25% cut in the justice system? With great difficulty, and

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the ministry's budget will bust. will bust? Yes. Over a year ago Ken

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Clarke ludicrously volunteered much greater cuts in his budget that he

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needed to. He was trying to show avenues very virile justice

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minister. If you think it will bust, are you in favour, for example, of

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judges handing out four-year sentences to two men for inciting a

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riot that didn't take place, but inciting a riot on a social

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network? In principle I'm in favour of that sentence. There have to be

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tough sentence, I wasn't in court, that is the point the Prime

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Minister made, I'm not going to judge the circumstances as if I had

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been in court. I'm absolutely clear that people who xir, which is what

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these - conspire, which is what these people sought to do, to

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organise a riot, whether they do that by Facebook or out in the

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street, must expect and deserve a very tough sentence. One of the

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five principles of sentencing set out in the 2003 Criminal Justice

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Act, as the chairman of the Magistrates' Association was

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referring to today, is that of deterrent, you can't have this

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anarchy, you have to deter people. But now there is a cost to that,

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and the Government will be wholly failing in the first duty of any

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Government, which is to keep the streets safe f it does not meet

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these costs. Today's unemployment figures offer

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little comfort to the Government in the wake of the riot, with a rise

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of 38,000 in England and Wales in the three months to June, the

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largest rise for more than two years. A figure the Chancellor

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describes simply as "disappointing". The general secretary of the trade

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The Female Eunuch son said the savage cuts have ended

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opportunities in the public sector, and it is the private sector

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struggling to withstand the economic downturn. With the

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announcement of 11 more Enterprise Zones in England be the magic

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bullet. Bradford Leeds, today's the small

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rise in unemployment significants barely matters, the problem here is

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entrenched. Years of depravation have left 46% of people here with

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no qualifications at all, finding a job is tough. My job is to get work,

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I'm doing college, that is the only way to do it is to get a trade in

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college. Now the Government has stopped EMA, you have to pay for it

:15:50.:15:54.

yourself, it is hard to pay for it. Figures today show youth

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unemployment above 20%, the evidence is it is scarred, a spell

:15:59.:16:03.

on the dole before the age of 23 can affect you throughout your

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working life. There are permanent scaring effects from this temporary

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unemployment shock. For example an individual who has a spell of

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unemployment during youth, their wages will be lower, even up to 20

:16:15.:16:20.

years later. So they can have wages when they are 42 which are 20%

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lower than an individual who wasn't unemployed during their youth.

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part of the solution, says the Government, is Enterprise Zones, 11

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new ones were named today. In the zone you get 100% business rate

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discount for five years. Simplified planning regulations and Government

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support for superfast broadband. need the private sector to be the

:16:42.:16:47.

engine of growth and jobs. The good news is the private sector has

:16:47.:16:50.

created around half a million jobs over the last year, we need it to

:16:50.:16:54.

go further and faster to make sure there are good will-paid jobs for

:16:54.:16:58.

all our people. That is why Enterprise Zones matter. Here is

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the kind of place it is supposed to work. Cobalt Light Systems a high-

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tech start up in Oxford. It has 15 employee, mainly scientist, but is

:17:10.:17:14.

about to go into production mode, which should mean more technician

:17:14.:17:18.

jobs. One of the options for us, is to start to manufacture, as our

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products gain acceptance, and I think the innovation centres and

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the Enterprise Zones certainly will help us to do that. As we grow, for

:17:27.:17:31.

example, we will have to move out of this innovation centre, there is

:17:31.:17:36.

some Greenfield sites nearby, and certainly the Enterprise Zones will

:17:36.:17:40.

encourage new build structures that we can potentially move into and

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occupy in the future. But, as for many UK firms, the problem is the

:17:46.:17:52.

absence of a trained and skilled work force. If you look at where

:17:52.:17:55.

the Enterprise Zones are cited, there is a mismatch, it is always

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some distance from the unemployment black spots. The one in London is

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near Canary Wharf, the two in Birmingham are not exactly in the

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worst hit areas, it is the same across the country. There is a

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reason. Fundamentally I think these places have become unattractive for

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businesss to locate in, want to set up. That is a very big challenge

:18:16.:18:20.

these places face. We know the types of things that would improve

:18:20.:18:26.

the economic boincy of these areas would be to improve their skills

:18:26.:18:32.

profile. For example, areas like Stoke Hull, Birmingham, all areas

:18:32.:18:39.

with an Enterprise Zone, have between 17-19% of their working age

:18:39.:18:43.

people unemployed. Addressing these deep seated challenges will be more

:18:43.:18:47.

important to the long-term economic growth potential of these cities.

:18:47.:18:53.

The first Enterprise Zones were launched in the early 1980 today

:18:53.:18:56.

they are widely believed to have failed. The relocated existing jobs

:18:56.:19:00.

didn't create new one, and what stalled employment was sustained

:19:00.:19:03.

recovery, which is what is not happening today. Schemes such as

:19:03.:19:09.

the private enterprise scheme, they are incentivising the private

:19:09.:19:13.

sector to create jobs, this won't have a quick impact on youth

:19:13.:19:16.

unemployment. We need a direct scheme that quickly takes the

:19:16.:19:21.

individuals out of unemployment and into work or education now. Because

:19:21.:19:24.

if we don't do that the consequences for these individuals

:19:24.:19:29.

will last a lifetime. And there is another problem revealed in today's

:19:29.:19:33.

figures about migration, employment among British workers in red, falls

:19:34.:19:37.

rapidly at the start of the crisis but only among foreign nationals in

:19:38.:19:42.

yellow. But then, in the recovery, foreign workers have taken more

:19:42.:19:47.

jobs than UK nationals, especially in the last two quarters. Here's

:19:48.:19:56.

the view on that from people. are coming over working minimum

:19:56.:20:02.

wage, we can do the same work for minimum wage, it is harder for an

:20:02.:20:06.

English person, than a Polish person who can get a job straight

:20:06.:20:10.

away. The real nightmare for politicians in the recovery, is we

:20:10.:20:14.

get a recovery in private sector demand, but the work force can't

:20:14.:20:20.

match it. With nearly a quarter of all adults economically inactive,

:20:20.:20:30.
:20:30.:20:30.

the skills base is being eroded, with one million unemployed it is

:20:30.:20:37.

not catching up faster. There will be 250,000 school leavers with A-

:20:37.:20:40.

level results tomorrow to add to that.

:20:40.:20:47.

The private sector hasn't delivered the jobs bonanza fast enough to

:20:47.:20:53.

deal with the numbers of 17-23- year-old who is are on the dole and

:20:53.:21:01.

unskilled. They will left behind? There is a huge youth unemployment

:21:01.:21:04.

challenge. If you look at the labour market over the last 12

:21:04.:21:09.

months, we have seen four-times as many jobs created in the private

:21:09.:21:15.

sector, as jobs lost in the public sector. Who are they going to?

:21:15.:21:21.

of the frustrations is we haven't had up to now a scheme to match

:21:21.:21:25.

unemployed British workers to vacancies. We have that now, that

:21:25.:21:29.

is designed to solve that problem. You have the enterprise areas, but

:21:29.:21:33.

not in the areas where there is all the unemployment, there is a

:21:33.:21:37.

mismatch immediately? That is not right, if you look at the north-

:21:37.:21:40.

east, areas particularly affected, an area where we can't to see a

:21:40.:21:45.

bigger and stronger private sector, there are two Enterprise Zones, one

:21:45.:21:52.

in the Tees Valley and one around Newcastle. That will serve as an

:21:52.:21:57.

engine to help grow the private sector. You are not matching the

:21:57.:22:03.

unemployment black spots with skills. If you don't put highly-

:22:03.:22:07.

skilled training in areas where the factories are, the factories will

:22:07.:22:12.

go to foreign nationals as we see on the graph? You talk about it

:22:12.:22:16.

being far away, in London we have black spots in South-East London,

:22:16.:22:21.

we have an Enterprise Zone around Canary Wharf, that is a short

:22:21.:22:26.

commute away. In the north, black spots in Newcastle and an

:22:26.:22:30.

Enterprise Zone around Newcastle, they are there, and close by and

:22:30.:22:33.

accessible. The fact is the jobs aren't going to British national,

:22:33.:22:37.

that graph was perfectly clear, as the recovery starts, foreign

:22:37.:22:40.

nationals, not British nationals are getting the jobs. That is a

:22:40.:22:43.

strange position for a Conservative Government? We recognise that

:22:43.:22:47.

problem, one of the key goals of the providers who are going to be

:22:47.:22:50.

delivering our work programme s to match individual job seekers to

:22:50.:22:53.

find the right opportunities, to remote vait people who have been

:22:53.:23:01.

out of work for long time, to fill the skills gap to make sure there

:23:01.:23:04.

is the ready work force. filling of the skills gap is too

:23:04.:23:10.

slow. It must be very disheartening for 17-23-year-olds, who haven't

:23:10.:23:15.

got the skills now and see this whole wave of schoolchildren coming

:23:15.:23:21.

out behind them. You atrify if you are unemployed, your skills become

:23:21.:23:25.

less. That is right. If you look at young job seekers we have done two

:23:25.:23:27.

things. Along with the work programme and the support we

:23:27.:23:32.

provide through organisations like the Prince's Trust, our work

:23:32.:23:35.

experience scheme is delivering those opportunities for precisely

:23:35.:23:39.

those people. Joining us now are Martina Milburn, the chief

:23:39.:23:42.

executive of the Prince's Trust, Laura Rennis, long-term unemployed

:23:42.:23:46.

but now running her own business and from Newcastle, Andrew Hodgson,

:23:46.:23:51.

the chief executive of a high-tech manufacturing company on north

:23:51.:23:54.

Tyneside. Andrew Hodgson, you heard the minister say that the skills

:23:54.:23:59.

are there in the right areas, you run a high-tech company, what's

:23:59.:24:03.

your experience? For the last two years we have recruited about 200

:24:03.:24:07.

people, all of very high skill. But I have to say that most of that has

:24:07.:24:10.

been achieved by taking from companies that have been laying off.

:24:11.:24:14.

I think we are reaching the point now where we are struggling to find

:24:14.:24:17.

people with the right skills going forward. We tried to do things with

:24:17.:24:20.

the local colleges and universities to address, that clearly, as you

:24:20.:24:25.

have said, it is quite a slow process. In fact, you don't have

:24:25.:24:30.

young engineers? We have some young engineers entering our population,

:24:30.:24:34.

but over time we have seen, in the last ten years, the number of

:24:34.:24:39.

people taking up science and technology-type degrees have

:24:39.:24:42.

dramatically reduced and therefore the quality of people entering the

:24:43.:24:46.

population at graduate level has been severely reduced. You have a

:24:46.:24:52.

lot of unemployed people in your area? The north-east as the highest

:24:52.:24:55.

level of unemployment, we have one of the lowest levels of skills,

:24:55.:24:59.

clearly you can see the co-relation between those two numbers. That is

:24:59.:25:02.

firsthand experience for a man trying to run a high-tech company?

:25:02.:25:09.

This is precisely the reason why we have had 100,000 extra

:25:09.:25:14.

apprenticeships. It is essential for a high-tech business to develop

:25:14.:25:19.

the skills at college and university level that are right for

:25:19.:25:21.

those companies. You heard manufacturing capability talked

:25:21.:25:24.

about, we have to make sure where we have investment in manufacturing,

:25:24.:25:28.

we have skills that are built amongst the existing unemployed

:25:28.:25:30.

community, that they are remote vaited and we find the right

:25:31.:25:40.
:25:41.:25:49.

vacancies for them. .We Have to match the employers with employees.

:25:49.:25:54.

This is where the Prince's Trust comes in, you are matching people

:25:54.:25:59.

so far off the scale of skills, how does this help them? The way you

:25:59.:26:02.

help those types of young people is with a lot of support. One of the

:26:02.:26:05.

things we have been discussing with Government is the amount of support

:26:05.:26:09.

and long-term support that those young people need, and it isn't

:26:09.:26:14.

just about the cash, it is about the people and meantors that go

:26:14.:26:17.

with them. How long were you unemployed? About four or five

:26:17.:26:21.

years. What did that feel like being there, somebody else in the

:26:21.:26:26.

film thought about it there you feel like you are atrifying on the

:26:26.:26:34.

dole? You get a sense of demote vaigs, you become very defeatist

:26:34.:26:38.

and depressed, you get very fed up, I know myself I didn't want to not

:26:38.:26:44.

have a job. Is that the experience of a lot of your friends r a number

:26:44.:26:47.

of your friends in the same position? At the time I do remember

:26:47.:26:51.

a lot of my friends were seeking employment, but thankfully they are

:26:51.:27:01.
:27:01.:27:03.

all in employment now. What is your impression of the skills gap?

:27:03.:27:06.

training do you think people need? There is a lot of attention for

:27:06.:27:12.

people to achieve the core subjects, English, maths and science, there

:27:12.:27:17.

are a lot of young people who are cast aside that don't achieve

:27:17.:27:21.

highly in the main academic subjects. There are so many young

:27:21.:27:27.

people if they were channelled in the same way to complete CDT, wood

:27:27.:27:30.

shop, electricians courses and things like that, they wouldn't be

:27:30.:27:34.

cast aside and put that element of doubt upon them that they are not

:27:34.:27:39.

able to achieve anything. Is that your experience with young people

:27:39.:27:44.

that they are not channelled in the right direction? I think so, with

:27:44.:27:48.

the apprenticeship level it is set quite high, you need to have NVQ

:27:48.:27:54.

level 2 or 3, and the group we are talking about haven't even got NVQ

:27:54.:27:58.

level 1, just to finish, a young person told me a while ago they had

:27:58.:28:01.

left their apprenticeship, because they were doing a plumbing course,

:28:01.:28:05.

but they had to spend all the time doing the history of plumbing, I

:28:05.:28:09.

don't want a plumber who knows the history of plumbing, I want someone

:28:09.:28:13.

to mend my sink, that is the bit we have been working closely with

:28:13.:28:17.

Government to engage those young people, but it takes longer. It is

:28:17.:28:21.

practical experience and help. don't have the time, and they don't

:28:21.:28:24.

have the time, Chris Grayling, surely there needs to be a lot more

:28:24.:28:28.

done. A number of young people simply aren't even on the starting

:28:28.:28:33.

ladder? One of the problems is many employers are reluctant to take on

:28:33.:28:36.

someone straight from school or college. We are trying to do

:28:36.:28:39.

through the work experience scheme is to get employers, we have now

:28:39.:28:42.

thousands of young people going through the scheme, into the work

:28:42.:28:46.

place for a couple of months to show employers what they can do.

:28:47.:28:50.

that enough, Andrew Hodgson? Sorry. Is it enough now to say to young

:28:50.:28:54.

people here is two months that you can go away and work out what you

:28:54.:28:58.

want to do, and then you have to find your path, is that enough?

:28:58.:29:02.

think it is very, very difficult, we hear a lot from various employer

:29:02.:29:07.

groups about the employability of young people, I think it is

:29:07.:29:09.

important that people understand that is an issue, maybe two months

:29:09.:29:14.

does give people chance to folk cushion but clearly we need to be

:29:14.:29:20.

working with people - focus, but clearly we need to working with

:29:20.:29:23.

people to see they have the growth paths for the future. Do you think

:29:23.:29:28.

things will get worse before they get better? I think things will get

:29:29.:29:33.

better. We are looking through the Enterprise Zone in the north-east,

:29:33.:29:37.

creating 3,000 low-carbon jobs, I think the number will be more like

:29:37.:29:40.

10,000, there are a lot of opportunities for British companies

:29:40.:29:43.

to focus. We have a pretty good skills base, not with standing

:29:43.:29:48.

everything we have said today. We have a great infrastructure in the

:29:49.:29:52.

north-east, I think we have started on a path to growth. Path to growth

:29:52.:29:57.

there, a slow path to growth maybe, the danger is you won't do enough

:29:57.:30:00.

to turn this around in time? These are difficult times economically

:30:00.:30:04.

there are two things we have to do to try to build employment. One is

:30:04.:30:07.

to create the kind of environment we are talking about through

:30:07.:30:10.

Enterprise Zones, where businesses are growing and creating jobs. The

:30:10.:30:14.

other is through the work being done by the work programme,

:30:14.:30:18.

Jobcentre Plus, and the organisations like the Princess

:30:18.:30:20.

trust, providing specialist support for the long-term unemployed, that

:30:20.:30:24.

is what we are doing as well. In an interview today the Work and

:30:24.:30:26.

Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, said Britain was the last

:30:26.:30:30.

chance saloon when it came to the social crisis, that wasn't the

:30:30.:30:37.

crisis but the crisis is coming. Most of the violent disorder took

:30:37.:30:46.

place in inner cities, some more quiet pockets of England fell

:30:46.:30:50.

victim to the rioting too and looting. We went to find out what

:30:50.:30:53.

happened. This doesn't look like the place to contemplate the

:30:53.:31:00.

problems of contemplery Britain. Gloucester is an easy going city on

:31:00.:31:05.

the tourist circuit. Famous for the Cathedral and for once being the

:31:05.:31:09.

unlikely home of mass murderer Fred West. On Tuesday last week its

:31:09.:31:14.

image suddenly changed. Windows were smashed and shops looted.

:31:14.:31:18.

Bristol was quieter, but the trouble across the west has the

:31:18.:31:22.

police at full stretch. Gangs of youths took to the streets hurling

:31:22.:31:27.

rocks and bottles at police, smashing windows and starting fires.

:31:27.:31:32.

Firemen needed police protection against the rioters. 24 people have

:31:32.:31:36.

been charged so far. I understand that most of them are white. Just

:31:36.:31:40.

over a week on, the arrests have continued, cases go through court,

:31:40.:31:45.

and the city has returned to its pleasant, normal tranquility, at

:31:45.:31:49.

least on the surface. There is still a furious debate, why

:31:49.:31:54.

Gloucester, why on earth should there be riots here? The riots have

:31:54.:31:58.

led to soul searching with inevitably very different and

:31:58.:32:01.

sometimes startling conclusions. Outside the Cathedral, I met two

:32:01.:32:04.

ladies who worked there. Were you surprised this happened in

:32:04.:32:09.

Gloucester? Not at all. You weren't surprised? Not at all. Do you not

:32:09.:32:14.

feel safe in Gloucester? No, I don't. We were mugged in May in the

:32:14.:32:18.

porch of the Cathedral. Just round the back here? Yes, I have

:32:18.:32:22.

travelled extensively, go to London a lot, and feel more at threat in

:32:22.:32:27.

Gloucester than any other city in the country. They haven't got

:32:27.:32:30.

discipline, they haven't got discipline at home, and therefore,

:32:30.:32:36.

they grow up with the idea that the world owes them a living, that the

:32:36.:32:41.

gang culture takes over, nobody else matters, and I think it is

:32:41.:32:45.

very, very sad. We have got to do something. The local MP was,

:32:45.:32:49.

perhaps, naturally, concerned for the city's image. I'm not sure I

:32:49.:32:53.

would call them riots. I think the police themselves would say. Police

:32:53.:32:58.

taked with bottles and stones, buildings set on fire, firemen

:32:58.:33:01.

frightened because they were being attacked themselves, that is a riot

:33:01.:33:04.

surely? No. Police had to stop people coming into the centre here,

:33:04.:33:10.

that is the way they talk about it? I think the word "riot" is too

:33:10.:33:15.

strong. We had a very disappointing night with significant disturbances

:33:15.:33:19.

and one empty building, set on fire in an upper room. That doesn't

:33:19.:33:25.

really mean a riot. It is all about image for Gloucester, isn't it?

:33:25.:33:27.

doesn't help Gloucester's reputation, we know it was a bad

:33:27.:33:33.

night a lot of us were very cross about it. I had 700 e-mails from

:33:34.:33:37.

people frustrated about such things happening here. We had a fire in

:33:37.:33:42.

the college just over here. And then a large group forming up in

:33:42.:33:47.

East Gate Street. The police took me on a tour of last week's trouble

:33:47.:33:51.

spots. They did well in keeping rioters out of the city centre.

:33:51.:33:55.

is here they managed to find things to grow at the police. People were

:33:55.:34:01.

using bottles they brought from pubs to use as missiles. Assistant

:34:01.:34:05.

Chief Constables argued that cutbacks could have been a factor.

:34:05.:34:09.

If you look at what is happening across the whole of the country in

:34:09.:34:13.

terms of cutbacks of services for a number of people, it is likely that

:34:13.:34:18.

is going to have an impact on people feeling valued or being

:34:18.:34:21.

listened to or getting the services they need. Some of that may have

:34:21.:34:24.

played out on Tuesday evening in Gloucester, I think it is really

:34:24.:34:28.

hard to say there was a direct impact. Certainly, what we would

:34:28.:34:32.

all like to see are far more services for young people, far more

:34:32.:34:35.

activities to engage young people and actually make them feel they

:34:35.:34:39.

have a stake in society, that they have some hope of getting a job in

:34:39.:34:43.

the future, some hope of getting a decent education and training, and

:34:43.:34:46.

they have actually got their place in society, where they are earning

:34:46.:34:50.

a living and they would do all of those things that the rest of us

:34:50.:34:56.

would like to do. Gloucester may have the appearance of a well off

:34:56.:35:00.

affluent city, but the figures show 9,000 people out of work across

:35:00.:35:06.

Gloucestershire. This is one of the most deprived areas, with high

:35:06.:35:13.

unemployment and most claiming benefits across the city. It is a

:35:13.:35:18.

multiracial part of the city. It was here the rioters caused damage

:35:18.:35:22.

after failing to reach smarters shops across the city.

:35:22.:35:28.

There is place for young people to go here. Some of the time. The

:35:28.:35:31.

Youth Peace Project was launched last week just after the riot. It

:35:31.:35:35.

is funded through the Home Office, using money eased from criminals,

:35:35.:35:40.

it is only open four hours a week. Back about five years ago there was

:35:41.:35:44.

four youth centres all open sometimes four nights a week, for

:35:44.:35:48.

up two to three hours at night, then they had summer provisions

:35:48.:35:52.

during the summer holidays when young people are not at school and

:35:52.:35:59.

college T has diminished ridiculously. The project is run by

:35:59.:36:03.

Delroy Ellis, a one time drug dealer, now praises for community

:36:03.:36:08.

work. He used to run another youth club but it closed last December

:36:08.:36:11.

because he lost its funding. He claims there is a connection

:36:11.:36:16.

between that loss and the riot? Told by people that nearly 1500

:36:16.:36:26.
:36:26.:36:26.

people that attended the meeting from the riots came from Star 66,

:36:26.:36:30.

that is from the old club. I'm not saying I could have stopped it, I

:36:30.:36:33.

would have put something in place if I knew it was a rioting night, I

:36:33.:36:37.

would have opened up the youth club and say come on and talk about it.

:36:37.:36:41.

How does he see the problems of young people in the area? 70% of

:36:41.:36:46.

the kids I work with on daily basis they have no aspirations, they are

:36:46.:36:50.

saying what is there out there. You have told me there weren't nothing

:36:50.:36:57.

out there when you were 21, you are now 34, what is out there for me 21

:36:57.:37:02.

years on, it is upsetting. If they feel no-one listens to us, we are

:37:02.:37:07.

not valued, we haven't any hope for a different life, some of those

:37:07.:37:12.

people will be engaging in criminal activity, not to condone it, but

:37:12.:37:15.

understand what it is about. They see greed taking place in other

:37:15.:37:19.

parts of our society, in all the different strata of our society,

:37:19.:37:22.

they see people getting away with that, there is something here about

:37:22.:37:28.

saying what about me, don't I get some as well. What happened here?

:37:28.:37:33.

There seemed to be many reasons. Copy cat rioting, boredom, despair

:37:33.:37:39.

at lack of opportunities, and just plain greed. The unemployment

:37:39.:37:44.

figures revealed today the number of women out of work has hit levels

:37:44.:37:47.

not seen in 23 years. How can females improve chances of

:37:47.:37:51.

employment. A controversial new book by a senior research fellow at

:37:51.:37:55.

the London School of Economics argues that the fairer sex is

:37:55.:37:59.

missing a trick. Catherine Hakim argues that women have something

:37:59.:38:04.

called "erotic capital" and they should use it to get on in the work

:38:04.:38:10.

place. She cites Carla Bruni and Christine Lagarde as all luring

:38:10.:38:16.

mistresses of "erotic capital", she also says in today's culture women

:38:16.:38:20.

should be less squeamish about selling themselves. We think this

:38:20.:38:26.

is what she might have in mind. # Because you're gorgeous

:38:26.:38:33.

# I'd do anything for you # Because you're gorgeous

:38:33.:38:38.

Managers I know you'll get me through

:38:38.:38:46.

# You said my clothes were sexy # You tore away my shirt

:38:46.:38:56.
:38:56.:39:03.

# Because you're gorgeous # I'd do anything for you.

:39:03.:39:09.

Margaret came to the leadership of the party, and primeship, by being

:39:09.:39:14.

a sweet little blonde lady batting her eyelashes with big floppy bow,

:39:14.:39:19.

how feminine can you get, you never ever saw her in trouser, even that

:39:19.:39:23.

connoisseur of women, Alan Clarke said, that Margaret Thatcher had

:39:23.:39:33.
:39:33.:39:41.

good legs. It wasn't the whole The exponent of this theory, Dr

:39:41.:39:45.

Catherine Hakim is here, along with the writer, Laurine Penny. You are

:39:45.:39:49.

suggesting there is human capital, social capital, employment capital

:39:49.:39:54.

and erotic capital. You seem to be saying there is a male sex deficit,

:39:54.:39:57.

men don't get enough sex and therefore, women should exploit

:39:57.:40:02.

that to get on. Really what I'm saying is men and women benefit

:40:02.:40:06.

from erotic capital, in fact the research results show that men seem

:40:06.:40:10.

to be getting a higher return on their erotic capital than women. So

:40:10.:40:15.

maybe women have a little bit of catching up to do. What you are

:40:15.:40:18.

suggesting is women should make the most of themselves? Men and women

:40:18.:40:24.

should make the most of themselves. Like what? First of all it is

:40:24.:40:29.

important to define erotic capital, and what my book says is that

:40:29.:40:34.

social and physical attractiveness is important in all areas of life,

:40:34.:40:40.

and gives people an advantage in all social situations. If you

:40:40.:40:44.

understand erotic capital and the power it gives you in social

:40:44.:40:47.

situations you will be more successful in the work place, in

:40:47.:40:51.

friendships and the politics of private life. But what you are

:40:51.:40:55.

seeing primarily dealing with women here, is erotic capital gets women

:40:55.:40:59.

on, and women who are erotic in whatever way that is are more

:40:59.:41:03.

likely to do well in the work place and should exploit it, and the

:41:03.:41:06.

problems in the work place are nothing to do with discrimination

:41:06.:41:11.

and sexism and whatever, it is just women don't come on properly?

:41:11.:41:16.

don't say in any place in the book that it is not about sex

:41:16.:41:21.

discrimination, that that doesn't exist. I'm simply saying that

:41:21.:41:25.

erotic capital is one of the personal assets, for men, as well

:41:25.:41:30.

as women, that has been overlooked in all writing so far, and we need

:41:30.:41:38.

to now focus on. Reading this book, and listening to

:41:38.:41:41.

this talk about erotic capital really makes me very sad, because,

:41:41.:41:46.

yes, you should make the most of yourself, it sounds very obvious,

:41:46.:41:50.

saying, this is the way the world is, you can't change it, women are

:41:50.:41:56.

judged on their appearance, that is the way it is. I like to this isn't

:41:56.:42:03.

the best of all worlds, we can't change it, but it just takes a bit

:42:04.:42:08.

of imagination. 100 years ago Dr Hack wouldn't be able to go and

:42:08.:42:13.

study for a PhD, stating the obvious in the book, it seems to

:42:13.:42:16.

say that the world can never change and women can only be judged on

:42:16.:42:21.

their appearance. That is not good enough, we need to say more to

:42:21.:42:25.

women. You say it is an advantage to man, men have the most

:42:25.:42:28.

advantages in terms of being more attractive, and that is the fault

:42:28.:42:33.

of radical feminists, that is what you say? I don't say that, I simply

:42:33.:42:38.

say the research evidence is that people with, who are socially and

:42:39.:42:42.

physically attractive earn something like 10-20% more than

:42:42.:42:47.

people who are unattractive. I'm simply saying that feminists have

:42:48.:42:55.

been reluctant to accept that it can be an advantage and a benefit,

:42:55.:42:59.

that's just being said this evening. If women have this erotic capital,

:42:59.:43:04.

why don't they benefit from it then? I'm saying women haven't

:43:04.:43:07.

benefited as much as begin are benefiting, there seems to be a bit

:43:07.:43:11.

of catching up to do. In other words there is sex discrimination

:43:11.:43:17.

going on here, but it is a kind not many people have recognised,

:43:17.:43:22.

because nobody has wanted to recognise the importance of erotic

:43:22.:43:25.

capital as a personal asset in all roles of life. It is not just the

:43:26.:43:30.

labour market, it is friendships, private life, getting on, and

:43:30.:43:35.

making life easier for you in all sorts of contexts. What Catherine

:43:35.:43:39.

Hakim is also saying, is part of the whole story about erotic

:43:39.:43:43.

capital is the sex industry. And that actually it would be a much

:43:43.:43:48.

better way and much fairer way to run society, and women would be

:43:48.:43:51.

advantaged, if they decriminalised sex workers and women were allowed

:43:51.:43:57.

to charge for sex, because men understand that? Well, all this

:43:57.:44:02.

talking about sex work and the sex industry, and erotic capital as a

:44:02.:44:06.

way of measuring relationships, it is a very mercenary way of talking

:44:06.:44:09.

about relationships between people. What really strikes me most about

:44:09.:44:13.

this book in this argument is it is very, very inhuman. It is talking

:44:14.:44:18.

about human relationships as a species of returns and marketing.

:44:18.:44:21.

Isn't that the case, isn't it the case that people are quite

:44:21.:44:25.

mercenary and calculating when it comes to relationships? No, I think

:44:25.:44:29.

you can think a lot better things of people, people are also very

:44:29.:44:33.

loving, it is possible to be decent to one another without seeing life

:44:33.:44:38.

as a constant market and selling yourself, it is a sad view of the

:44:38.:44:42.

world. Do you think you should sell yourself all the time? Economists

:44:42.:44:46.

point out anything that is scarce has value, and attractiveness,

:44:46.:44:51.

social and physical attractiveness, charm, being able to get on well

:44:51.:44:56.

with people, as well as beauty, as well as sex appeal, all of these

:44:56.:44:59.

things have scarcity value and therefore, as a result. You believe

:45:00.:45:04.

women should be allowed to sell themselves for sex without any

:45:04.:45:06.

criminality and men should be encouraged to buy, that because

:45:06.:45:11.

that is what women should pride themselves in that? I didn't say

:45:11.:45:16.

that, my book says explicitly that the sex industry should be neither

:45:16.:45:19.

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