22/08/2011 Newsnight


22/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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It's not yet all over in Lybia, but it looks as if it is almost over.

:00:07.:00:13.

What now? They celebrate the downfall of the

:00:13.:00:18.

dictator, but how to ensure that what follows is better, or even

:00:18.:00:22.

coherent, is this the end of a revolution or the start of new

:00:22.:00:29.

conflicts? Power now resides in Benghazi, but

:00:29.:00:32.

is the so-called National Transitional Council to be trusted?

:00:32.:00:36.

Their man in London is here, as is the International Development

:00:36.:00:42.

Secretary. Remember this: Never fall again for

:00:42.:00:48.

the doctrine of isolationism, because the world truly cannot

:00:48.:00:52.

afford it. Is Libya akin to Kosovo, the sort of military action he

:00:52.:00:57.

tried to sell to the world. If so, can we expect more western

:00:57.:01:00.

interventions, or are they limited merely to tyrannies that look

:01:01.:01:06.

vulnerable. It is a wipout in the Test Match,

:01:06.:01:12.

as India demolish India again, is an entire pool of home-grown talent

:01:12.:01:15.

being ignored. There is only one Asian guy in there at the moment.

:01:15.:01:18.

You are telling me there is no other Asian player in the whole of

:01:18.:01:28.
:01:28.:01:29.

the system? Colonel Gaddafi was always a man

:01:29.:01:33.

whose political claims were as plausible as his dyed hair and

:01:33.:01:37.

pantomime military uniforms. But his promise to fight on tonight is

:01:37.:01:40.

especially empty. His regime has collapsed with surprising speed,

:01:40.:01:45.

and the rebels now control most of the Libyan capital and it is

:01:45.:01:48.

reported tonight the International Airport. President Obama has said

:01:48.:01:52.

Gaddafi's only option is to quit the stage.

:01:52.:01:56.

We piece together the battle for Tripoli.

:01:56.:02:01.

It is not the end quite yet, but today surely marked the tipping

:02:01.:02:06.

point. In Tripoli jubilant crowds sing the

:02:06.:02:09.

new National Anthem. In fact, the old National Anthem from the days

:02:09.:02:19.
:02:19.:02:20.

of the king, overthrown by Gaddafi in 1969.

:02:20.:02:26.

Just a few days ago it seemed the Libyan civil war was in stalemate,

:02:26.:02:33.

but suddenly everything has changed. Today, the crowds could dare to

:02:33.:02:39.

smash Gaddafi's picture. As rebels streamed into Tripoli,

:02:39.:02:42.

claiming to control most, but certainly not all of the city,

:02:43.:02:49.

after their rapid advance. So he played his last card f you

:02:49.:02:57.

can saying, his last game. So all the army of Gaddafi now they fight

:02:57.:03:01.

without any orders, without anything.

:03:01.:03:04.

But Gaddafi's troops have not all surrendered. Today a BBC team

:03:04.:03:08.

filmed this take on a rebel convoy, travelling along the coast towards

:03:08.:03:18.
:03:18.:03:19.

the centre of Tripoli. And tonight a doctor in the city

:03:19.:03:24.

told Newsnight he expected more resistance. We have to expect some

:03:24.:03:28.

resistance. Otherwise we are not imagining well, so the resistance

:03:28.:03:35.

is expected. But not so effective. Though the rebels are still

:03:35.:03:39.

threatened by some pro-Gaddafi force, the most decisive battle has

:03:39.:03:49.
:03:49.:03:52.

already been fought. The rebels stormed into the city

:03:52.:03:56.

last night, firing their weapons in celebration. But how do they

:03:56.:04:01.

finally manage to take Tripoli? It seems there were two key factor,

:04:01.:04:04.

the assault seems to have been well co-ordinated by different rebel

:04:04.:04:08.

groups w NATO bombing strikes also playing a crucial role.

:04:08.:04:16.

At the weekend, rebels pushing in from the Tunisian border, finally

:04:16.:04:20.

took Zawiya, a major turning point. With anti-Gaddafi forces gaining

:04:20.:04:24.

control of supply roads in the south, and Misrata in the east

:04:24.:04:28.

secured, it left the Libyan leader surrounded and under siege. When

:04:28.:04:33.

the rebels reached the headquarters of the Khamis Brigade, and found it

:04:33.:04:38.

abandoned, the full scale assault on Tripoli was on. Inside Tripoli

:04:38.:04:45.

itself, areas sympathetic to the rebels were quick to respond.

:04:45.:04:48.

Fashloum and Tajoura fell as local people took to the streets, as did

:04:48.:04:51.

the symbolically important Green Square. It isn't over yet, parts of

:04:51.:04:55.

Tripoli, including the port, and Bab Al-Aziziya, Gaddafi's compound,

:04:55.:05:03.

still appear to be under the control of Gaddafi's forces.

:05:03.:05:08.

The second factor was NATO. There has been a blitz of NATO air

:05:08.:05:11.

attacks on targets in and around Tripoli in the past few day, and

:05:12.:05:15.

continuing today. The highest number in one location since the

:05:15.:05:19.

bombing campaign began. They could not have succeeded

:05:19.:05:23.

without NATO's assistance, that has to be recognised. They simply would

:05:23.:05:27.

not have taken Zawiya as quickly as they did. They would not have

:05:27.:05:32.

advanced on Tripoli, if NATO air strikes hadn't softened up regime

:05:32.:05:35.

armour so effectively. People on the ground in Libya recognise this.

:05:36.:05:41.

The challenge for NATO now is to get back behind the scenes,

:05:41.:05:45.

unobtrusively, and extend discreet assistance, without twisting arms

:05:45.:05:55.
:05:55.:05:56.

or making a public show of it. What is still not known, of course,

:05:56.:06:01.

is the where abouts of Gaddafi himself. Who faces an arrest

:06:01.:06:05.

warrant from the International Criminal Court, for alleged crimes

:06:05.:06:08.

against humanity. The rebel National Transitional Council say

:06:08.:06:16.

they hope he is captured alive. TRANSLATION: We hope that he is

:06:16.:06:22.

captured alive. So that he will be given a fair trial. Tonight his

:06:22.:06:26.

future looks bleak. Two of his sons are said to have been captured and

:06:27.:06:31.

now to be in rebel hands. A third, Mohammed, escaped, he was on the

:06:31.:06:37.

phone to a TV station. TRANSLATION: I'm being attacked

:06:37.:06:46.

right now, this is gunfire inside my house. They are inside my house.

:06:47.:06:51.

As for his own whereabouts, if Gaddafi is still in Libya, as seems

:06:51.:06:56.

likely, it is possible he has fled his residence and fortified

:06:56.:07:00.

compound in Tripoli, and his possible hideouts include his birth

:07:00.:07:05.

place, Sirte in the east, and still under his forces' control. He could

:07:05.:07:14.

be out in his beloved desert, perhaps around Sabha, with Libyan

:07:14.:07:21.

tribes, still loyal. After nearly 42 years Gaddafi's era is surely

:07:21.:07:24.

over. With us is the International

:07:24.:07:27.

Development Secretary, Andrew Mitchell, you must be delighted our

:07:27.:07:32.

side won? I think so far so good. But there's an awful lot of

:07:32.:07:36.

uncertainty and doubt still around. Of course, presumably the danger in

:07:36.:07:39.

your mind is this will degenerate into something like the situation

:07:39.:07:43.

in Iraq, after the apparent victory? We hope we have learned

:07:43.:07:47.

the lessons of Iraq, in the work that Britain and other countries

:07:47.:07:50.

have been doing on stablisation, for what comes when the fighting is

:07:50.:07:55.

over. That process, of course, will belong to the National Transitional

:07:55.:07:58.

Council, it will be led and owned by them. But there is a huge amount

:07:58.:08:01.

of work that Britain and other countries have done into planning

:08:01.:08:04.

for what goes next. We are not still maintaining the fiction that

:08:04.:08:09.

this was a civil war, despite the fact that we had planes involved,

:08:09.:08:12.

special forces on the ground, the French armed the rebels, we are not

:08:12.:08:16.

maintaining that fiction any longer are we? We are absolutely clear

:08:16.:08:20.

that the reason we joined the coalition, the reason we helped

:08:20.:08:24.

lead the coalition and provided our planes and airmen and women was to

:08:24.:08:28.

stop a bloody massacre taking place in Benghazi. If we hadn't

:08:28.:08:32.

intervened, you don't need to look in the crystal ball, it is in the

:08:32.:08:36.

book, Gaddafi said he would go from house-to-house in Benghazi. The

:08:36.:08:40.

reason for the intervention was to stop that massacre taking place.

:08:40.:08:44.

And we will stop a similar massacre in Syria, will we? Syria is a very

:08:44.:08:50.

different position. First of all, the whole of the Arab world was

:08:50.:08:54.

deeply opposed to what Gaddafi was doing. Syria is different. It is

:08:54.:08:59.

not to do what you can do, because there are things you cannot do.

:08:59.:09:04.

That is why, although our room for manoeuvre is constrained, in Libya

:09:04.:09:07.

it is clear what was needed to be done and we did it. We should be

:09:07.:09:10.

proud of the fact that Britain helped to lead that effort. You are

:09:10.:09:14.

saying we do what the Arab world allows us to do in the Arab world?

:09:14.:09:17.

I think it is the art of the possible. It was possible on Libya

:09:17.:09:22.

to take this action, and I think most people are extremely pleased

:09:22.:09:27.

we did so. The limits of our principles are what other

:09:27.:09:31.

Governments in that part of the world, frequently themselves

:09:31.:09:34.

tyrannies, decree as possible? of the problem with Syria is there

:09:34.:09:37.

isn't agreement in the way there was on Libya. That is another

:09:37.:09:43.

factor as well. Will we seek a UN resolution authorising the use of

:09:43.:09:47.

force to protect civilians in Syria? I don't think that is

:09:47.:09:52.

practical. What we can do to protect civilians what we are doing

:09:52.:09:55.

through organisations like the ICRC, one of the few organisations who

:09:55.:09:59.

can get into Syria and through whom we can try to bring some

:09:59.:10:02.

humanitarian help to people in a very dark place. What is the

:10:02.:10:06.

difference between Syria and Libya? It is the art of the possible, and

:10:06.:10:10.

it is also the fact that there was widespread agreement on the action

:10:10.:10:13.

we took on Lybia, which has been lacking consistently on Syria.

:10:13.:10:19.

be clear of this, you are proud of what we did in Libya? I think it

:10:19.:10:22.

was the right beings and a brave decision the Government and Prime

:10:22.:10:25.

Minister took. There were many people who said you could not

:10:25.:10:30.

impose a no-fly zone, you couldn't achieve what we achieved from the

:10:30.:10:35.

air, and we have. We averted what would undoubtedly have been a

:10:35.:10:39.

bloody massacre in Benghazi. As far as Colonel Gaddafi is concerned

:10:39.:10:42.

what would you like the National Transitional Council to do with

:10:42.:10:48.

him? He should surrender, he should tell his rapidly diminishing band

:10:48.:10:52.

of supporters to lay down their arms. Then it is matter for the NTC,

:10:52.:10:55.

the authorities in Libya, over whether he should go through a

:10:55.:10:59.

justice system in Libya, or whether he should be sent to the Hague.

:10:59.:11:04.

have no feelings on that as a Government? It is matter for the

:11:04.:11:08.

Libyan people, power exercised through the National Transitional

:11:08.:11:13.

Council. Surely we should be committed to him appearing before

:11:13.:11:15.

the International Criminal Court at the moment? They are not a member

:11:15.:11:19.

of the ICC at the moment, the commitment is to him undergoing

:11:19.:11:24.

justice. In the way the ICC work, that can be done by a justice

:11:24.:11:29.

system inside Libya, or failing that, the Hague. Were the National

:11:29.:11:31.

Transitional Council, or whatever that evolves into, and we have no

:11:31.:11:36.

idea, to decide he should face some form of summary justice, and be

:11:36.:11:41.

hanged along with his familiarly we are quite content to let them do

:11:41.:11:44.

that? We do know what the National Transitional Council plans, they

:11:44.:11:51.

plan a new constitution, they plan a new approach with elections after

:11:51.:11:53.

eight months. That is what the National Transitional Council will

:11:54.:12:00.

announce when the fighting is over. The chairman is able to go to

:12:00.:12:04.

Tripoli. The new constitution will determine the nature of the justice

:12:04.:12:09.

system in Libya. That is why I say it is a matter for the National

:12:09.:12:12.

Transitional Council to decide whether or not Gaddafi should face

:12:12.:12:16.

justice in the Hague under the ICC, or whether it should be done

:12:16.:12:22.

through Libyan justice. Once the NTC has taken power, will we be

:12:22.:12:25.

requesting that Mr Al-Megrahi come back to serve the rest of his

:12:25.:12:29.

sentence in a Scottish jail? There is a process for that. But nars for

:12:29.:12:34.

the Scottish Government to decide. We have - it is a matter for the

:12:34.:12:37.

Scottish Government to decide. We condemn the decision taken, we

:12:37.:12:40.

think it was the wrong decision, the fact that Mr Al-Megrahi is

:12:40.:12:44.

alive today rather underlines that point. Thank you very much. Just

:12:45.:12:49.

briefly joining us from New York is John Bolton, the former US

:12:49.:12:53.

Ambassador, we will talk to him at greater length in a minute or two.

:12:53.:12:58.

I would be interested to ask you Mr Bolton, do you think when Mr

:12:58.:13:02.

Gaddafi goes, Mr Al-Megrahi should be requested to be returned to a

:13:02.:13:07.

Scottish jail? No, I think he should be sent to the United States

:13:07.:13:11.

where we could try him. The terms under which the US agreed to Al-

:13:11.:13:15.

Megrahi being tried in a Spanish court have been violated both by

:13:15.:13:19.

the Government of Libya and by the Government of Great Britain. I

:13:19.:13:24.

think that any commitment that we might have made that would release

:13:24.:13:29.

him from the potential of American prosecution, for, afterall, killing

:13:29.:13:34.

189 Americans, has been voided. My view would be he deserves to come

:13:34.:13:37.

to this country to have a trial here. And you will be asking for

:13:37.:13:41.

that, if you were in Government, would you? I certainly would,

:13:41.:13:45.

absolutely. We are going to talk you a bit more in a moment or two.

:13:45.:13:48.

First we will have another piece of tape. The overthrow of Gaddafi is a

:13:48.:13:52.

long way from the end of the story. Power now seems to lie with

:13:53.:13:55.

something called the National Transitional Council, but who are

:13:55.:14:01.

they? How did they get the gig? Can they be trusted. We spent much of

:14:01.:14:09.

recent weeks with the Libyan rebels. When the advance came it was

:14:09.:14:12.

unexpectedly fast. After months of near stalemate, the road to Tripoli

:14:12.:14:16.

suddenly opened up. The streets of the capital, so often until

:14:16.:14:20.

recently the scene of demonstrations in support of

:14:20.:14:26.

Colonel Gaddafi, were now filled with jubilant rebel fighters. The

:14:26.:14:29.

battle for Tripoli isn't over yet, but the regime's grip on the

:14:29.:14:34.

capital, which had held out, despite months of NATO air strikes,

:14:34.:14:41.

this weekend appeared to slip away. Libya's rebel force, so often

:14:41.:14:45.

derided as a rabble, looked much more organised. They didn't do it

:14:45.:14:49.

alone. NATO was serving as the rebel Air Force. An auxiliary air

:14:49.:14:54.

arm of the free Libyan forces. There is no doubt about the way

:14:54.:14:58.

they interpreted their mission to protect civilians, was to

:14:58.:15:02.

facilitate a rebel advance on Tripoli. That was obvious from the

:15:02.:15:07.

high degree of assistance they furnished to the rebels as they

:15:07.:15:11.

marched towards Tripoli. NATO's stated mandate throughout the

:15:11.:15:14.

conflict has been to protect civilians and civilian

:15:14.:15:17.

infrastructure. But if there was one thing that both the rebels and

:15:17.:15:21.

Colonel Gaddafi could agree on, it was that Britain and others were

:15:21.:15:26.

firmly supporting the National Transitional Council. The NTC, the

:15:26.:15:30.

rebels' political leadership in Benghazi. Last month, along with

:15:30.:15:36.

more than 30 other countries, the UK formally recognised the

:15:36.:15:40.

unelected body as Libya's sole, legitimate governing authority.

:15:40.:15:44.

Through its actions the National Transitional Council has shown its

:15:44.:15:47.

commitment to a more open and democratic Lybia, something it is

:15:47.:15:50.

working to achieve through an inclusive political process. This

:15:50.:15:54.

is in stark contrast to Gaddafi, whose brutality against the Libyan

:15:54.:15:59.

people has striped him of all legitimacy. Who exactly are these

:15:59.:16:02.

rebels, that the National Transitional Council says it

:16:02.:16:06.

represents? The revolution had its first flowering in Benghazi, which

:16:06.:16:09.

became the political capital of the opposition. But the rebels'

:16:09.:16:13.

military campaign never developed into a single unified push

:16:13.:16:18.

westwards, instead, fighting broke out in pockets, the port city of

:16:19.:16:22.

Misrata became a rebel-held stronghold, isolated and cut off

:16:22.:16:28.

from the rest of the movement. Then fighting gained momentum on a third

:16:28.:16:33.

front, in the Nafusa Mountains, ethnic divisions sim merd, there

:16:33.:16:43.

was an uneasy eye lines. The NT. - uneasy alliance. The NTC has had to

:16:43.:16:48.

work alongside, the Berbers, who have done much fighting, Islamists,

:16:48.:16:53.

fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, those who would classify themselves

:16:53.:16:59.

as Jihadis, those who are secular, those who are tribunally orientated,

:16:59.:17:04.

those - tribally orientated, and those interested in only a

:17:04.:17:06.

democratic Libya. Once the Government falls it will be the

:17:06.:17:11.

task of the rebel leaders to join the disparate groups, or at least

:17:11.:17:14.

persuade them not to turn their guns on each other. That happened

:17:14.:17:19.

in July when a senior rebel commander was shot and killed by

:17:19.:17:23.

members of a rival rebel brigade. Today the chairman of the NTC

:17:23.:17:26.

issued a warning to fighters to maintain discipline and security,

:17:26.:17:30.

and to guard against the threat from what he called Islamist

:17:30.:17:34.

extremists. With the prospect of victory in sight, the shadow of

:17:34.:17:37.

Iraq hangs over Libya's future there are, of course, plenty of

:17:37.:17:42.

differences between the two countries, but the initial euphoria

:17:42.:17:48.

over the toppling of Saddam Hussein, did lead to a dissent into vicious

:17:48.:17:53.

infighting, that is a powerful echo. In Iraq the Iraqis deposed the

:17:53.:18:00.

Government, and through bathecation, it striped out a lot of the senior

:18:00.:18:05.

- bathification, it striped out a lot of the senior and middle

:18:05.:18:12.

management. Libya has put some effort into evolving plan so as not

:18:12.:18:17.

to repeat the hard lessons learned in Iraq. After decades of rule of

:18:17.:18:22.

one man alone, Libya is a curious mix of political simplicity and

:18:22.:18:28.

ambition. As I saw skrauld on the walls of Misrata last month. This

:18:28.:18:32.

one says we want checks and balances on the President's power,

:18:32.:18:37.

and four-year, non-extendable term limits. That might sound like a

:18:37.:18:42.

terribly good idea in principle, the question is, after 42 years of

:18:42.:18:46.

dictatorship, how easy will it be to achieve in practice. Since then,

:18:46.:18:49.

the rebel political leadership has got round to drafting a

:18:49.:18:52.

constitution. It is the kind of document that few people would

:18:52.:18:55.

disagree with. It calls for a multiparty political system, with

:18:56.:19:01.

equal rights for all. But there is one crucial section, Article Two 9,

:19:01.:19:06.

which says that the members of the Transitonal National Council may

:19:06.:19:10.

not nominate for or assume the position of President of state, the

:19:10.:19:14.

membership of the Legislative Councils, or ministerial portfolios.

:19:14.:19:20.

It is a guarantee, a reassurance to the rest of Libya, that the

:19:20.:19:24.

political leaders in Benghazi won't simply seize power as soon as

:19:24.:19:28.

Tripoli falls. When the fighting end ends and they return to their

:19:28.:19:31.

normal lives, these people will stop being rebels, but their

:19:31.:19:36.

biggest challenge may be to come, to maintain their unity of purpose

:19:36.:19:41.

after their common enemy as been removed. With us now is the UK co-

:19:41.:19:50.

ordinator in London for the NTC. And John Bolton is still with us.

:19:51.:19:56.

What is your reaction to the situation tonight. Is it unalloyed

:19:56.:20:00.

delight or are you apprehensive? You have to multitask in this

:20:00.:20:04.

situation, I think it is clear that Gaddafi's regime is over, and I

:20:04.:20:09.

think it is still very uncertain how bloody the end game will be.

:20:09.:20:13.

That potential is very real. I think there is huge uncertainty now

:20:13.:20:18.

what follows Gaddafi. There is no doubt in my mind that eliminating

:20:18.:20:22.

his regime was the right thing to do, but it is very uncertain what

:20:22.:20:29.

comes next. That is obviously a critical issue. Your worry is what?

:20:29.:20:34.

The worry is several fold, first, that the rebels fall to fighting

:20:34.:20:41.

among themselves. And we end up with continuing hostilities and the

:20:41.:20:46.

risk that Libya would deteriorate to similar to what we have in

:20:46.:20:50.

Somalia or Yemen, giving Al-Qaeda or others a chance to establish an

:20:50.:20:55.

operating base. Or second, that among the disparate elements of the

:20:55.:20:59.

rebel coalition, that radical Islamists, or even Al-Qaeda

:20:59.:21:03.

elements that NATO has identified, could come to predominate. I don't

:21:03.:21:09.

say that is inevitable, far from it, it is very uncertain. We have the

:21:09.:21:11.

UK co-ordinator for the National Transitional Council here. The fact

:21:11.:21:15.

is, you haven't got anything in common, apart from the fact that

:21:15.:21:21.

you all wanted Gaddafi to go? the contrary, Jeremy, Libyan

:21:21.:21:30.

society is the most hom genius society among all the Arab -

:21:30.:21:34.

homogenesis society among all the Arab nations. Even the tribal

:21:34.:21:39.

nature of our society has been hugely exaggerate. We are totally

:21:39.:21:45.

united and determined Libya will be one country and Tripoli the capital.

:21:45.:21:49.

We are nationalist, overwhelmingly, we think of Libya first. We

:21:49.:21:53.

determine that after Gaddafi is over, and his regime is effectively

:21:53.:21:58.

over, we want to rebuild the country along constitutional,

:21:58.:22:04.

democratic system, that will allow everybody to participate and allow

:22:04.:22:07.

all Libyans to reach their aspirations. That sounds wonderful,

:22:07.:22:12.

it has to come true, that's all that needs to happen. I hope it

:22:12.:22:16.

does. I'm simply saying no-one at the moment can say it honestly will.

:22:16.:22:20.

Neither can you? We can only rise up to the challenge. We have

:22:20.:22:24.

already got plans in place, we have the vision in place. The last six

:22:24.:22:27.

months we have done detailed planning, and we are already

:22:27.:22:31.

unfolding these plans, and implementing them in Tripoli as we

:22:31.:22:35.

speak. Unlike other experiences before in other Arab countries that

:22:35.:22:43.

have been with an American diplomat put in charge and decimating the

:22:43.:22:47.

institutions, we will be inclusive and maintain all the institutions

:22:47.:22:51.

of the country and everybody must report back. What about the other

:22:51.:22:56.

point raised, the danger of some Islamist organisation, Al-Qaeda or

:22:56.:23:00.

whoever, taking power in Libya, or being able to use it at least as

:23:00.:23:06.

base? I refer you to a statement by General Mullen, who is the American

:23:06.:23:10.

Chief-of-Staff, who says on record there is no signs or proof of any

:23:10.:23:16.

Al-Qaeda elements in Libya. That again is something Gaddafi used as

:23:16.:23:21.

frightening the west, it has not materialised. Libyan society tends

:23:21.:23:25.

to be moderate. Libyans are religious, but they are moderates.

:23:25.:23:31.

They do not tolerate extremism one way or another, we do not have any

:23:31.:23:37.

Al-Qaeda elements in there. shot the head of the army then?

:23:37.:23:40.

That is a subject of an investigation and we should have

:23:41.:23:45.

the results soon. We don't know who they are, but they are definitely

:23:45.:23:48.

not Al-Qaeda members. We do not have an Al-Qaeda organisation in

:23:48.:23:54.

Libya. It was one of your own, I think. John Bolton. We don't know

:23:54.:23:58.

yet. John Bolton, the fact of the matter surely is that Libya is

:23:58.:24:02.

better off tonight than it was under the dictatorship of a

:24:02.:24:07.

lunatic? Well, I hope so. But I think that remains unproven. As I

:24:07.:24:14.

say, number one, we still have the prospect of Gaddafi and bitter

:24:14.:24:20.

enders along with him, not just in Tripoli, but in Brega and Sirte and

:24:20.:24:23.

other parts of Libya, not yet captured by the rebels, continuing

:24:23.:24:29.

to hold out. There is the prospect of guerrilla warfare by those who

:24:29.:24:35.

were part of the Gaddafi regime, or loyal to it. And despite the

:24:35.:24:39.

optimisim that we have just heard, experts in this country and in

:24:39.:24:44.

other NATO countries who know a thing or two about Libya are very

:24:44.:24:47.

worried that the transitional Government will not be able to hold

:24:47.:24:51.

together. I say again, I don't think it is inevitable that they

:24:51.:24:55.

will come apart. I just don't think we know at this point, and all of

:24:55.:24:59.

this will be subject to verification. I think the United

:24:59.:25:04.

States should work hard to make the successor regime a positive

:25:04.:25:09.

development. I just don't think we can have confidence at this point

:25:09.:25:13.

until we know what the outcome will be. It has taken much, much longer

:25:13.:25:18.

and cost much more than Governments in London and Paris and other NATO

:25:18.:25:22.

capitals expected. The outcome of a confrontation between the world's

:25:22.:25:25.

most powerful military alliance and a despot dictator should never have

:25:25.:25:28.

been in doubt. There were plenty who said it couldn't be done.

:25:28.:25:32.

Instead it is a victory of sorts for what is known as liberal

:25:32.:25:35.

interventionism, western democracies making war to spread

:25:35.:25:39.

their values. But no-one is suggesting they try it in Syria,

:25:39.:25:48.

for example. Cost vow, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan,

:25:48.:25:52.

Iraq, and now Libya. The circumstances in which Britain

:25:52.:25:56.

intervenes and the way it gets involved, has been evolving. David

:25:56.:26:02.

Cameron says he has learned the lessons of a difficult decade.

:26:02.:26:05.

I think the Prime Minister and everybody involved in this policy

:26:05.:26:10.

is terrified of a repeat, the humiliations and the mess we found

:26:10.:26:14.

in Afghanistan. Everybody is hoping it will be more like the situation

:26:14.:26:18.

in Bosnia, which was positive. The last two decades have been really

:26:18.:26:21.

confusing. At times the international community, the US and

:26:21.:26:24.

the Allies have felt it can do almost anything it wants. At other

:26:24.:26:28.

times it feels it can do nothing. Looking at Libya, there will be the

:26:28.:26:31.

great temptation to take responsibility for the whole thing.

:26:31.:26:34.

At the same time a real fear that things may collapse if we don't get

:26:34.:26:38.

involved. One of the principles of Tony

:26:38.:26:43.

Blair's style of liberal intervention, was summed up by the

:26:43.:26:47.

philosophy that if we break a country we have a responsibility to

:26:47.:26:51.

fix it. Interventionism doesn't mean just militarily intervening

:26:51.:26:56.

and then going home. Because the whole principle arises from the

:26:56.:26:59.

doctrine of the responsibility to protect. That means you have a

:26:59.:27:03.

responsibility to the citizens of the country, in which you are

:27:03.:27:07.

intervening, that responsibility doesn't end the moment that a

:27:07.:27:11.

tyrant is toppled. It means you have a continuing responsibility,

:27:11.:27:18.

which wasn't very well exercised in the case of Iraq, but we hope

:27:18.:27:21.

better exercised in Libya. What was interesting from the Prime

:27:21.:27:25.

Minister's statement is how little he was taking ownership of what is

:27:25.:27:29.

happening in Libya, he was purposefully playing down Britain's

:27:29.:27:33.

role? There is much more to be done, it is still a difficult situation

:27:33.:27:37.

in Tripoli, but it is clear a huge amount has changed in the last few

:27:37.:27:40.

days, that gives people confidence that the people of Libya are close

:27:40.:27:44.

to what they want. This is about them, this is not about us, it is

:27:44.:27:49.

about a country in North Africa that warrants a future of freedom

:27:49.:27:55.

and democracy, that wantsor part of the Arab Spring. We want to - wants

:27:55.:28:00.

to be part of the Arab Spring. We shunned be too much about the role

:28:00.:28:06.

we played. It needs to lie in the correct place, which is in the

:28:06.:28:10.

ruling authorities in the country itself. As Mr Cameron rightly made

:28:10.:28:13.

clear, it will be a Libyan-led exercise, the international

:28:13.:28:17.

community will get involved, only in accordance with requests from

:28:17.:28:22.

Libya. That is the right way round, rather than trying to impose any

:28:22.:28:25.

vision from outside on the country in question.

:28:25.:28:29.

Inside Number Ten, there is an acknowledgement that Britain's

:28:29.:28:33.

involvement in getting rid of Colonel Gaddafi, if that is indeed

:28:33.:28:38.

what is happening at the moment was only possible because a stringent

:28:38.:28:40.

set of criteria were first satisfied. Firstly, western powers

:28:41.:28:46.

were on board, but not only that, so was the Arab League, the UN gave

:28:46.:28:52.

its approval as did NATO. By contrast, they say, Tony Blair's

:28:52.:28:55.

doctrine of international intervention would have demanded

:28:56.:29:00.

action even if none of those criteria were satisfied.

:29:00.:29:04.

David Cameron certainly doesn't sound as evangelical in the cause

:29:04.:29:09.

of spreading democracy, as some of his predecessors. In Cairo in

:29:09.:29:14.

February, as the Arab Spring formed into uncertain bud, he described

:29:14.:29:21.

democracy as the patient work of decades. He was not, he declared, a

:29:21.:29:25.

naive neo-con, who thinks it can be dropped from 40,000 feet. I think

:29:25.:29:29.

where Tony Blair got it wrong, he always exaggerated our fears and

:29:29.:29:34.

our power. He was always saying this is an extension threat to

:29:34.:29:37.

global security, this is a failed state, on the one hand. On the

:29:37.:29:41.

other hand he would say we can sort it out, give us the troops and

:29:41.:29:44.

resources, we can sort it out. That needs to be left behind now. We

:29:44.:29:48.

need to move into a much more modest world, where we are much

:29:48.:29:53.

more humble, we can do a bit, it is largely about local action, we can

:29:53.:29:58.

support around the edges, there is a chance of doing something, that

:29:58.:30:03.

isn't the stuff of great political speeches. The action in Libya may

:30:03.:30:07.

provide a template for future intervention. It has not thus far

:30:07.:30:10.

required Britain's rather worn military boots to hit the ground.

:30:10.:30:14.

It is a template that acknowledges its own limitations. Without, for

:30:14.:30:17.

example, a complete change in the international climate, it is

:30:17.:30:24.

difficult to see how it can be extended to Syria or Iran.

:30:24.:30:28.

A Foreign Office minister and UN deputy secretary-general is with us

:30:28.:30:37.

now, along with a Labour MP, we are joined from Washington by Elliott

:30:37.:30:42.

Abrahams who advised George Bush on Libyan affairs.

:30:42.:30:44.

Does this prove that interventionism works? It worked in

:30:44.:30:49.

the case of Libya, I take the point that Libya was a great case. The

:30:49.:30:53.

people were against the regime, he had been a terrorist, the Arab

:30:53.:30:56.

League, the UN, everyone was in favour. But it certainly helps the

:30:56.:31:02.

case, I would say, of liberal interventionism. It is very

:31:02.:31:08.

striking that David Cameron did not come into office planning this sort

:31:08.:31:13.

of temptways, or to succumb to this sort of temptation? That's right, I

:31:13.:31:19.

doubt he will again. This was, as he and his ministers insist, a

:31:19.:31:24.

once-off, as Elliott has said, all the signals pointed in the right

:31:24.:31:29.

direction t created an almost irresistable opportunity, and an

:31:29.:31:32.

irresistable moral duty. That threat to the citizens of Benghazi

:31:32.:31:36.

we all saw, was something any decent politician would have tried

:31:36.:31:40.

to act. This raises the very interesting question about when you

:31:40.:31:46.

feel you can act or you must act and when you feel you shouldn't or

:31:46.:31:51.

you can't? Clearly in this case there was an international

:31:51.:31:56.

consensus that had been built up, with the demands from the people of

:31:56.:32:01.

Libya, who wanted action, who wanted support. I think what we

:32:01.:32:11.

have to be clear about is the duty to protect the UN resolution that

:32:11.:32:14.

was established, it was a lot less clear how the international

:32:14.:32:18.

community should respond. I think it is really positive that there is

:32:18.:32:22.

a duty to protect civilians when they are threatened by dictators,

:32:22.:32:26.

this is an important example of that happening. We have to take

:32:26.:32:30.

care when we take interventions and how it is doss done. The critical

:32:30.:32:34.

thing is - how it is done. The critical thing is the Libyan people

:32:34.:32:41.

are at the forefront of determining their destinies, and countries

:32:41.:32:44.

should intervene with care. only people who can take the

:32:44.:32:47.

decision about whether to intervene or not, are the people who will do

:32:47.:32:51.

the intervening, surely? We have the United Nations, we have the

:32:51.:32:55.

international legal instruments, which need to be observed. We know

:32:55.:33:00.

from the situation with the Iraq war what happens when there isn't a

:33:00.:33:05.

consensus. Are you expect to go see more interventions? Not really. I

:33:05.:33:10.

think for two reasons. It is very interesting the political debate in

:33:10.:33:15.

Washington, where even the right have been deeply sceptical about

:33:15.:33:21.

this. Because you know neo-con political ambition has run into

:33:21.:33:26.

fiscal reality. What we are seeing in the US, the debate about

:33:26.:33:29.

military overstretch, bringing the troops home, spend the money at

:33:29.:33:34.

home. We will see a very similar debate here in the UK. So I think

:33:34.:33:39.

we're going to enter an era of very cautious military engagement abroad,

:33:39.:33:43.

and also one where you are going to have to do it within the framework

:33:43.:33:47.

of international law, and frankly, Libya pushed that to the limits.

:33:47.:33:54.

This went beyond Protestant tection of civilians, and it has done some

:33:54.:33:58.

- the protection of civilians and has done some damage. Are you

:33:58.:34:01.

expecting to see more of these interventions? If the occasion

:34:02.:34:05.

arise, yes. Libya was, from the American point of view, pretty

:34:05.:34:10.

cheap, in the amount of military force was used, it was quite

:34:10.:34:13.

minimal, there were no American casualties here. In a sense, after

:34:13.:34:18.

Afghanistan and Iraq, it is a counter example of how intervention

:34:18.:34:23.

is possible at quite a limited price. So I think, again, it

:34:23.:34:26.

encourages the notion that when the situation is ripe, it is a good

:34:26.:34:32.

thing to do. Can I just pick up on the point, I think it is much too

:34:32.:34:36.

early to say, to declare what the price was. In the case of

:34:36.:34:41.

Afghanistan and Iraq, the day that the successful rebels went into

:34:41.:34:46.

Baghdad and Kabul, backed by foreign forces, was not the end, it

:34:46.:34:51.

was, frankly, the end of the beginning. Then followed these long

:34:52.:34:57.

years of difficult reconstruction, of insurgency, of the west feeling

:34:57.:35:02.

committed to a project it had begun and couldn't leave until it was

:35:02.:35:04.

successfully finished, and a democratic state established in

:35:04.:35:08.

those two places. I think it is a little too soon to count our

:35:08.:35:16.

victory yet, or at least put a cost on that victory.

:35:16.:35:19.

No-one is predicting that Libya is going to look like Iraq, and any

:35:19.:35:25.

way, none of us is thinking of putting in gigantic Armed Forces.

:35:25.:35:29.

We have, on the military front, essentially done our part, now we

:35:29.:35:36.

leave it largely to the Libyans. But this has set a precedent, which

:35:37.:35:41.

rather supersedes the precedents of Afghanistan and Iraq, neither of

:35:41.:35:45.

which has been particularly happy? We need to make a distinction

:35:45.:35:49.

between the interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Particularly in

:35:49.:35:54.

Iraq, where it was, there involved ground troops, regime change and so

:35:54.:36:00.

on. In this case, it was about protecting people, and also, I

:36:00.:36:05.

think this is much more in line with the examples of Kosovo and

:36:05.:36:10.

Sierra Leone. I think we also need to look back at Bosnia, where

:36:11.:36:14.

interventions didn't take place until very late on. Thousands of

:36:14.:36:17.

people were slaughtered. So in the era of cautiousness, which is

:36:17.:36:22.

correct and right, we do have to make sure, that as the

:36:22.:36:26.

international community we don't let slaughters take place either.

:36:26.:36:30.

If you were watching this in Damascus, or even in the Syrian

:36:30.:36:34.

embassy in London, wouldn't you conclude, well, we know precisely

:36:34.:36:37.

what the limits of western intervention are likely to be now.

:36:37.:36:42.

They are what they can get away with, they think? Hold on a moment,

:36:42.:36:46.

two points, one I think both my colleagues in the panel are correct.

:36:46.:36:49.

As long as we have learned the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan,

:36:49.:36:54.

and have a low-cost support to a Libyan-led reconstruction, then it

:36:54.:37:00.

is right, the parallel breaks down. It is different. But coming to this

:37:00.:37:04.

second point, of Syria. I mean, frankly, President Assad at the

:37:04.:37:08.

weekend, when he gave a television interview to his domestic TV

:37:09.:37:13.

station, was using the threat of foreign intervention to try to whip

:37:13.:37:17.

up a kind of lame loyalty to his regime. I frankly think it is a

:37:17.:37:21.

very good thing that he knows, and the people of Syria know, there

:37:21.:37:25.

won't be a western intervention, that is not how this is going to

:37:26.:37:32.

get solved. How it now looks that it may start to get solved, is Arab

:37:32.:37:36.

neighbours are coming out against him. Russia and China, who were a

:37:36.:37:40.

little bit on his side, have flipped over to condemning him. It

:37:40.:37:43.

will be that kind of diplomatic pressure and economic isolation

:37:43.:37:49.

which will make change there. just would say, let's not set the

:37:49.:37:53.

standards for intervention so high that there is never another

:37:54.:37:57.

humanitarian intervention. It is very nice we had the Arab League

:37:57.:38:01.

with us, that was accidental, almost, they hate Gaddafi. It is

:38:01.:38:05.

great to get the UN Security Council, but we didn't have the UN

:38:05.:38:08.

Security Council in all the cases in the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

:38:08.:38:11.

If there is a responsibility to protect, it is a moral

:38:11.:38:15.

responsibility, and it doesn't disappear, if you don't happen to

:38:15.:38:20.

have the Arab League or Russia and China on your side. We seem to find

:38:20.:38:24.

ourselves with an unusual sporting phenomenon on our hands, the

:38:24.:38:29.

England cricket team skitled out the Indians to finish a whitewash.

:38:29.:38:32.

They are the best Test Match team in the world. They are an England

:38:32.:38:40.

team that expects to win. Could they be better, could there be a

:38:40.:38:50.
:38:50.:38:52.

pool of talent that the people who run English cricket haven't tapped.

:38:52.:38:58.

This is A Tale of Two Cities. In one part of Birmingham stands

:38:58.:39:04.

Edgbaston, establishment cricket English-style. The gentile setting

:39:04.:39:09.

for many an epic cricketing contest. And the Stately Home of

:39:09.:39:14.

Warwickshire Closed circuit Club. Just a few miles down the road,

:39:14.:39:24.
:39:24.:39:25.

cricket Asian-style. A no-frills version of the game, for almost 120

:39:25.:39:30.

years locals in Birmingham have been playing cricket on these

:39:30.:39:33.

pitches. 80 teams meet here every week during the summer, to compete

:39:33.:39:40.

with one of Britain's oldest and biggest Asian leagues. The

:39:40.:39:47.

facilities are basic, no changing rooms, no toil lets. Last year

:39:47.:39:53.

things got so tough the league considered folding. Traditionally

:39:53.:40:03.
:40:03.:40:03.

English cricket clubs need their own FA tillties if they want ECCB

:40:03.:40:09.

endorsement. Many are using council sites and are missing out on

:40:09.:40:19.
:40:19.:40:22.

support. Some say that support Why do you think there aren't more

:40:22.:40:27.

Asian players inside the test sites and county cricket? It goes back to

:40:27.:40:32.

the argument that you used to get about black footballers in the 1970,

:40:32.:40:38.

they can't cut it and don't have the aptitude and abilities. We need

:40:38.:40:45.

pioneers to breakthrough the ceiling. The day they are playing

:40:45.:40:51.

in the team, there is a Muslim who doesn't drink or wear any shirt

:40:51.:40:55.

that reflects drinking or gambling, the day we have that kind of player

:40:55.:41:03.

in the English cricket team, we will have a cricket team that

:41:03.:41:07.

reflects the diverse land we have here. What one misses out on is the

:41:08.:41:11.

practical approach that football has, where you have scouts at the

:41:11.:41:16.

lower league games. We have 13 games on, is there anyone from the

:41:16.:41:20.

ECB he can ching out the players? There are players in the league who

:41:20.:41:25.

have the quality to make it into the ranks of world cricket. Nobody

:41:25.:41:29.

is there to spot the players. not? It is a lacking part on behalf

:41:29.:41:36.

of the clubs, they are not looking in this the right places.

:41:36.:41:39.

Asians underrepresented? Look at the current English team there is

:41:39.:41:44.

only one Asian guy there, he's only a fringe player, you telling me

:41:44.:41:47.

there is no other Asian player in the whole of the system that can

:41:47.:41:51.

play with the rest of the England team, of course there is.

:41:51.:41:57.

Talk to the guys here and they will tell thaw English cricket is split

:41:57.:42:01.

between the middle-class white gentile world and the working-class

:42:01.:42:04.

Asian grassroots. Over in Edgbaston, the county

:42:04.:42:14.
:42:14.:42:17.

Cricket Clbu has been involved in projects to try - Cricket Club has

:42:17.:42:21.

been involved in project to try and be inclusive. I think it is

:42:21.:42:26.

inclusive at all levels. facilities the parks league have

:42:27.:42:31.

are not good, they have no changing rooms? No, that is a big issue. The

:42:32.:42:36.

teams playing in the partial league are not affiliate today the cricket

:42:36.:42:40.

- parks league, are not affiliated to the Cricket Board, but we see it

:42:40.:42:44.

as very important. There are Asian cricket teams in inner cities

:42:44.:42:48.

across England. These sides are playing in Victoria Park in East

:42:48.:42:53.

London, many caught the cricket bug from their parents. We felt, I

:42:53.:42:56.

suppose, for more our parents' country, that is where the passion

:42:56.:43:01.

came from, our parents, and our heros growing up were Pakistani

:43:01.:43:06.

cricketers. It was a passion for cricket, but not necessarily the

:43:06.:43:11.

England team. The ECB recently spent almost �1 million on building

:43:11.:43:14.

cricket facilities in East London, will the efforts help the England

:43:14.:43:19.

team look less white in the future. I hope so, I think the first

:43:19.:43:22.

significant difference will be that we will establish and find good

:43:22.:43:26.

young spinners, there is a lot of evidence we have found already that

:43:26.:43:30.

the kids who are around here are very talented, and particularly in

:43:30.:43:35.

spin bowling. Maybe the real test of success will come, not only when

:43:35.:43:40.

the England team looks more like England, but when there is no

:43:40.:43:47.

longer a need or demand for Asian- only leison. With us is the former

:43:47.:43:52.

editor, and the first British-born Pakistani to play professional

:43:52.:43:59.

cricket in this country. Why you do you think there are not

:43:59.:44:04.

more Asians playing for England? The projects such as Chance To

:44:05.:44:09.

Shine, trying to reignite cricket in state schools. If you look at

:44:09.:44:16.

the county circuit there are more Asian non-professional cricketers.

:44:16.:44:19.

Where I grew up 17 professional cricketers have come out of there.

:44:19.:44:25.

Are you saying it is not a problem? No, over the last five years it has

:44:25.:44:29.

been addressed. The ECB are invest ago lot of money into grassroots

:44:30.:44:36.

sport. Do you think it is a real problem? If you go back to the

:44:36.:44:40.

1950s, when Pakistani immigrants came over, through no fault of

:44:40.:44:44.

their own, they were not educated, they were not literate, they could

:44:44.:44:48.

not speak English, because the Government of Pakistan, has spent

:44:48.:44:53.

most of its money on the military and not on public health and

:44:53.:44:58.

education. There is an enormous cultural divide when they came over.

:44:58.:45:03.

Moreover, they are Muslim, generosity and hospitality are

:45:03.:45:06.

enormous priorities in the cultural values of Islam. They get to this

:45:06.:45:09.

country, they are given housing but they are not welcomed into the

:45:09.:45:13.

Cricket Clubs of this country. And although the gap is narrowing, I

:45:13.:45:18.

don't think it has narrowed quickly enough. Do you think there is, to

:45:18.:45:24.

some degree, I have to venture on this gingerly, there is a rather

:45:24.:45:30.

consciousness separateness in Asian cricket? I set a prime example in

:45:30.:45:35.

Birmingham, a local Cricket Club called Atok Cricket Club, set up in

:45:35.:45:39.

primarily an Asian area, the club itself reflecting the demographics

:45:39.:45:43.

of that particular community. There is an assumption that all Asian

:45:43.:45:46.

cricketers want to play club cricket, or are denied or forced to

:45:46.:45:50.

set up their own Cricket Clubs because they are not welcomed into

:45:50.:45:53.

white clubs. I'm not saying that doesn't happen in some case, what

:45:53.:45:57.

I'm saying is sometimes as local communities, they want to play

:45:57.:46:00.

together, play with their uncles and brothers, and not play the

:46:01.:46:03.

formal level of the game that a club environment would expect.

:46:04.:46:08.

do you make of that point? Because this is Britain, it is not just a

:46:08.:46:16.

question of race and colour, it is also a question of class. Another

:46:16.:46:20.

problem is there is hugely successful England team, wonderful

:46:20.:46:24.

team, presents a cheque for each country, through the broadcasting

:46:24.:46:29.

deals done, of �1.5 million, goes each county club at the start of

:46:29.:46:32.

the year. It is so much easier to go to your local private schools

:46:32.:46:37.

and get your agent in the southern Hemisphere to send you a few

:46:37.:46:41.

players who have European parentage, and to make your county team out of

:46:42.:46:49.

that. I'm afraid British Asians are underrepresented, well under 10%.

:46:49.:46:54.

Although the middle-class Asians have access to cricket, lower,

:46:54.:46:58.

working-class Asians do not have that same opportunity. You talk

:46:58.:47:04.

about people from Pakistani and Bangladeshi backgrounds, there are

:47:04.:47:07.

many different cultural and religious backgrounds from the

:47:07.:47:11.

continent. Supposing there was a proper representation of the

:47:11.:47:15.

communities in the English cricket tome, how would it change?

:47:15.:47:22.

would it change? I think you would find there would be more

:47:22.:47:26.

wristedness in the batting, you might have better one-day players.

:47:26.:47:30.

Because of the ability to hit over the top. We might have more of a

:47:30.:47:34.

chance to win a World Cup, as far as the batting is concerned. You

:47:34.:47:39.

might have interspinners, although Graeme Swann is fine. You would

:47:40.:47:43.

have a greater diversity. The English team is almost entirely

:47:43.:47:47.

private school for batting, and there are only the bowlers come

:47:47.:47:52.

from the state sector. So a diversity, it has to be healthy.

:47:52.:47:57.

Who did you want to play for when you were young? England, when I

:47:57.:48:01.

grew up as 12-year-old, I was spotted in the playground, by

:48:01.:48:06.

chance, it was through that I ended up at Warwickshire. Many would,

:48:06.:48:12.

even now I believe, prefer to play for Pakistan or India or Sri Lanka

:48:12.:48:16.

or wherever s that a correct impression? Yes, I think you're

:48:16.:48:21.

right. There is still strong ties to families and parents who came

:48:21.:48:27.

from south Asia, I think a lot of those children have carried that

:48:27.:48:31.

affinity on. That is self- segregation isn't it? It is, in

:48:31.:48:34.

some ways. If you look at the England players, or the Asian

:48:34.:48:39.

players who have played for England. I think they would all say when

:48:39.:48:43.

they pulled on the England shirt they were proud to play for England.

:48:43.:48:47.

If they played against Pakistan or India it didn't matter they all

:48:47.:48:50.

wanted to perform. In just a minute the morning papers. First, with a

:48:50.:48:56.

story that broke too late for them, is our political correspondent. Who

:48:56.:48:59.

has the latest on News International and Andy Coulson and

:48:59.:49:05.

the hacking story. Just give us the details? The top line of the story

:49:05.:49:07.

is after Andy Coulson left News International, he resigned as

:49:07.:49:12.

editor of the News of the World in January 2007, he continued to

:49:12.:49:14.

receive payments from News International, that overlapped the

:49:14.:49:18.

time at which he started working for David Cameron and the

:49:18.:49:23.

Conservative Party, in July 2007. These payments were part of his

:49:23.:49:28.

sevenance package. I'm told, I have been speaking to a member of the

:49:28.:49:31.

select committee, they want to look into this, and find out whether

:49:31.:49:35.

there was any conditionality to these. Did they require him to do

:49:35.:49:39.

anything, or not do anything that might be pertinent to this. Why is

:49:39.:49:43.

it politically significant? It is polictically significant because

:49:43.:49:47.

Andy Coulson went to work for David Cameron. Some people on the Labour

:49:47.:49:51.

side tonight, are suggesting this may have been a disguised donation

:49:51.:49:56.

to the Conservative Party. But there is another aspect to this as

:49:56.:50:00.

well, that the select committee on you will culture, media and sport,

:50:00.:50:05.

is he continued to get his benefits, it appeared, as an ex-employee,

:50:05.:50:10.

including car and health care, right up to 2009, when he gave

:50:10.:50:13.

evidence to the select committee. Did he disclose that, that is what

:50:13.:50:17.

they will want to look at. three front pages we have at

:50:17.:50:27.
:50:27.:50:34.

That's all from Newsnight tonight. Colonel Gaddafi told the people of

:50:34.:50:38.

Libya today he would stay to the end. We have reached our's.

:50:38.:50:48.
:50:48.:51:09.

Goodnight. Good evening. Whilst many northern

:51:09.:51:13.

and western areas stay dry through tonight, heavy rain in the south-

:51:13.:51:16.

east could produce nasty rush hour tomorrow with a risk of localised

:51:16.:51:21.

flooding. The storms working off into the North Sea quickly, rain

:51:21.:51:26.

persistent through the Midland, North West Midland stays fine.

:51:26.:51:31.

Turning wet through South Yorkshire, Londonshire, rain persists, 14 the

:51:31.:51:37.

high. Getting better through the day for East Anglia. Maybe brighter

:51:37.:51:42.

skies across the south coast, Cornwall, Isles of Scilly,

:51:42.:51:45.

predominantly dry throughout. For Wales brightness through the

:51:45.:51:49.

afternoon, especially in western most parts, temperatures peeking at

:51:49.:51:53.

18, 19. In Northern Ireland one or two showers through the day, most

:51:53.:51:57.

having a dry and bright day. Occasional sunshine, rather than

:51:57.:52:00.

clear blue skies, that will be the story for Scotland, a bit of cloud

:52:00.:52:05.

to begin with, some sunshine to begin, equally one or two showers

:52:06.:52:09.

are possible. For northern and western areas the change comes

:52:09.:52:13.

Tuesday into Wednesday. We start to drag in some rain. This is coming

:52:13.:52:17.

in across western parts. Cardiff seeing thundery downpours into the

:52:17.:52:21.

middle part of the week. Elsewhere in southern and eastern areas, it

:52:21.:52:25.

will be dry, brighter and warmer. We have a weakening cold front

:52:25.:52:29.

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