09/11/2011 Newsnight


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The cliche about the eurocrisis is that the politicians responsible


have been kicking the can down the road. Today the road has just about


run out. Europe's most comical Prime


Minister is quitting the stage in favour of a Government of


technocrats. One after another, the paymasters of Europe impose


Governments, but where does that leave European democracy? We show


the latest victim of the News of the World surveillance, what was


done to him. It is the banality of evil, isn't


it. It is really pathetic. And at the same time, kind of creepy.


are you finding it? She was happy enough to get the job, but can the


Home Secretary hang on to it? This pill promises to enhance the


way your brain works. We will try it. Does our increasing knowledge


of how the organ functions mean we should all be able to take drugs


It was obviously expecting too much to hope that the mere removal from


the scene of a man with an orange face and improbable hair, would


salvage the biggest political project in Europe. The news that


Silvio Berlusconi will quit the Italian Prime Ministership to spend


more time at his very tasteful parties, did nothing to make it


cheaper for his indebted country to borrow money. The Greeks, meanwhile,


can't agree who should be their new Prime Minister. Underlying


everything is the question can unelected Governments of the kind


now being imposed, do any better at Today it was Italy's turn to get


squeezed by the bond market monster. 24 hours after Silvio Berlusconi


finally succumbed to its embrace, Italy's lending power was knocked


for six. This morning, a key link in the global trading system, the


brokerage film, LCH.Clearnet, raised the collateral needed to


trade Italy's debt. Suddenly the third-biggest economy in the Europe


was breaching 7%. Breaching the 7% mark was put Portugal and Ireland


and Greece into bailout territory. Very few people are buying Italian


debt, save the ECB. There are lots of people selling Italian debt, or


who want to sell Italian debt. One of the problems with Italian debt


is everybody, every investor in the world, almost has got some Italian


exposure. The elected Governments of southern Europe are finding out


not just that they are powerless in the face of the bond market, but


that other elected Governments, central banks, can enrage the


monster, simply by doing nothing to help. Last Friday, I asked


President Sarkozy whether it was just for France and Germany to be


trying to change the Governments of Greece and Italy? He took offence,


saying we, islanders, misunderstood the complexties of Europe. But it


has come to pass that both of these Governments have fallen. In Greece


today, the Prime Minister said farewell. Nobody replaced him.


Coalition talks stalled. It scarcely matters, nobody in Greece


can change the economic policy of Greece at the ballot box. But


Greece, at least, has a bailout plan.


Italy is too big to bail. Only the European Central Bank, buying its


debt, is keeping it solvent. But the ECB has been stepping back from


supporting Italy. In Italy, there probably needs to be very fast


approval of some of the reforms. Maybe the promise of Berlusconi to


resign needs to be put into action more quickly. But essentially,


Italy needs to prove that it is credible on its own. And then, you


might, or might not have, a more forceful ECB action, to try to put


a floor on the market here. To save Italy from the bond market's hairy


fist would need about one trillion euros. The original plan was to


raise it through a special fund, the EFSF, but nobody will lend to


that. The G20 turned to the IMF, but raising extra money there is


politically hard to do, so it may have to be the European Central


Bank that sorts this out. But it is a nail-biter. The European Central


Bank has to benefit - has the benefit of flexibility, it doesn't


have to go to national parliaments to buy a lot of Government bonds. A


lot of people are calling for it to step in. It would make sense, in


one way, however that is when politics kick in. The Germans, in


particular, are very sensitive about the ECB playing, effectively,


a role which should be shouldered by national Governments. That was


the dilemma the leaders faced in Brussels, now, though the dilemma


is the same, there is, two weeks on, one less singer in the euro band.


Mr Berlusconi will soon vacate office too. For nearly two years


now, it has been obvious that northern Europe would have to sees


control of southern Europe's finances to justify a bailout.


Those who imagined it would be done gently imagined wrong. We knew that


with joining the euro, you surrendered sovereignity, few


realised how much democracy you surrendered as well. A break-up of


the eurozone would be extremely costly, it would come with huge


political cost and a huge economic cost, not only for Europe, but


probably for the world economy. Including, of course, Britain


itself. But at the end of the day, the choice may be between that and


the southern member-states in the eurozone, accepting a decade of


austerity measures, imposed by people sitting in Frankfurt,


Brussels and Berlin. You can't kill the bond market, but


you can pacify it, to put the financial monster back into its box,


Europe has to start acting like one country, and show the periphery


some tough love. It wasn't the aeroplanes, it was beauty killed


the beast. Now to try to make sense of this, from Washington we're


joined by a former IMF official, brought back to the Italian


Government in 2001, to help clear up a previous mess. With us here in


the studio are the editor of the economist, and the Greek economist.


Is Berlusconi's departure going to solve the Italian problem? I don't


think it will solve it by itselfful you can see everything today and


what Paul just said, everything is in bad way. His going is a step


forward. He is a man who has singularly failed to do anything,


to really push Italy forward. He failed in his attempts to try to


persuade the other Europeans that he had an answer to Italy's


problems. What is it that technocrats, such as yourself, can


achieve, that a democratically elected Prime Minister, like Mr


Berlusconi and his Government, can't do? Well, probably the main


point is knowledge. A take know crate would come with the basic


knowledge of how - technocrat would come with a basic knowledge of how


the market works, while politicians very often dream of the way that


the market works. So the basic difference would be knowledge. The


technocrat can bring more knowledge than the politician, they don't


have that. Whether they can implement this knowledge is a


different story. So what sort of thing does a politician not dare to


do that a technocrat does dare contemplate? Well, up to now, you


know, the solution to the Italian problems were rather obvious to


many people. The situation was not disastrous, Italy has had a public


debt of 120% for almost 20 years now without major difficulty. But


the international situation changed, and having 120% made it a little


bit heavier, and required some reaction on the part of the


politicians. Reaction in the modification of the financial, of


the labour market, which almost makes it impossible to change


anything in Italy. If the Government want to fire somebody


they can't do it. So the implication of this is that


democratic Governments, because they rely upon the votes of the


people, are incapable of solving the sort of challenges that both


Greece and Italy are faced with, as a consequence of membership of the


euro? It is quite incredible to say. That it is totally unacceptable.


What we have got here is the bond market, not only dk Tateing policy,


but now pointing - dictating policy, but pointing politicians in that


way. The democratic will of people is perfectly capable of solving a


crisis they should be given a chance to be heard. What do you


make of the argument? I don't entirely agree. I do agree Europe


last this huge democracy problem I do agree that what's going to


happen is fairly soon the technocrats, be it Mario Monti in


Italy, or whatever, will fairly soon have to go to the people.


Because nothing matters without democratic legitimacy. One of the


problems is the democratic leaders have failed. Berlusconi was man


with a big democratic mandate, yet he managed to run a place that grew


slower than anywhere, other than Zimbabwe and Haiti. That is not a


good record. Let's see why democratic leaders have failed.


They have failed because they have not been listening to their own


people, but the dictates of the markets, the bond markets and


various financial institutions. They have been taking measures


against their own people, and manifesto against the interests of


the economy itself. They have been adopting austerity measures which


has made the crisis worst. These measures have been dictated by the


IMF and other multilateral organisations, which appear as the


know-all technocrats and have the wisdom, and have created a terrible


mess in Europe. You're right about half of it, pushing austerity


through in some places was a mistake. What you are wrong about


is a lot of the things that the IMF have been trying to force. All the


things to do with unleashing growth, those are the things which wouldn't


have made any difference to what you are just talking about. That is


about opening up economies, making them grow faster, it is not


impingeing austerity. You were talking about what you would have


to do, for example, about labour conditions, mobility of labour,


wage rates and other ways of making the Italian economy competitive


again, how does a Government of technocrats, and unelected


Government, impose that? Obviously it can't impose it, but it can do a


better job of informing people of what needs to be done. I think that


was the problem. You know, the Italians have been told for many,


many years that there was no problem, nothing needed to be done,


when the situation was progressively getting worse. So if


you have this kind of Government then sooner or later you get in


trouble. The technical people would know better, and would say the


consequences and what would happen continuing with the policies.


Whether the people would allow them to make the changes is another


story. The technocrat such as yourself and we will see in Italy


now, is this essentially a mechanic, the car is being driven by somebody


else. It is being driven in Germany or on the bond markets? The bond


market does not exist. They exist that people want to invest, people


like me or you or somebody else. This idea that there is a bond


market, like an individual acting in some strange way, this I don't


buy that. People will buy bonds if they think that they will be repaid


at some point. This is the point. If you lose confidence in a country,


then sooner or later you get some particular consequences. I'm very


familiar with the Argentine situation, I should make a quick


point about that. Then Argentina went into trouble in 2001, went


into trouble with a debt to GDP ratio that was 50% of GDP, and a


deficit that was about 3%. But at some point the people were lending


money to the country, and they lost confidence, overnight the interest


rate went up by 2,000 base points. The country got in trouble. It is


not a question of the bond marketing reacting in some strange


way. It is a question of the country not doing what they should


do. Specifically in the context of Europe, this is a crisis that has


gone from one thing to another. It is a monetary crisis, a banking


crisis, this is in danger, is it not, of becoming a political crisis.


The danger here, surely, is that the e treems capitalise - extremes


capitalise when there is no democratically legitimate


Government in a country, what do you think? I think the euro has


failed, it is very clear the euro has fail. There are deep problems


of economy in Europe, very clearly. But there are also problems of


policy now. There are problems of national sovereignty, that has


transgressed across the periphery, and problems of democracy. In that


context, business as normal, life as normal is impossible. What is


happening now across the periphery of Europe is a groundswell of anger.


Greece is the canary in the mine when it comes to this. Greece is


becoming fast ungovernable, that is because of policies and measures


introduced by so-called technocrats which were manifesto wrong. The


measures introduced in 2010, by the IMF, in the EU, were manifesto


incorrect, in terms of their focus, and in terms of what they brought


to the economy. What do you make of the political dangers? I agree very


much with the idea that it plays to the extremes. If you have any


situation where people feel their views are not being represented,


you are bound to see things changing. You could see that


changing in Germany. Germany you have a population who are very


angry about the euro, you have no parties that actually represent


that. That is always f you have that degree of disconnect, and you


could argue you are saying a little bit p America in a completely


different way. We are all standing apart from this, because we are not


part of the euro, although we will suffer and are suffering in a


little while. If you could fix it, what would you do? From a British


point of view? If you were running the euro now, what would you do?


The one big bazooka sat there throughout the thing, is the


European Central Bank. They have always been the people who could


create a firewall around Italy and Spain. And their reluctance to do


so has been partly because of German pressure, but they have two


jobs. One is to keep our money, but the other is to keep the whole


system going. There, I think, in the end, it comes down to the ECB.


Why are you shaking your head? think the ECB can provide liquidity,


it will appear in the markets tomorrow and buy a lot of Italian


bonds. It can do and do that repeatedly. The problem is a


problem of austerity, and an economy that doesn't work. That


cannot be solved by the ECB. I doubt this problem can be solved


within the confines of the European monetary European. You think the


euro has failed? Yes, I think several countries on the periphery


will be forced to exit. Then there will be some dramatic


transformation at the core, break of it into two, or some other


arrangement. In the current form, it is unsustainable t will not be


sustained. An immensely wealthy youngish man


is believed to have arrived in this country tonight. It is not entirely


pleasure. James Murdoch is before the Parliamentary Committee


investigating how his newspaper, the News of the World, hacked into


the phones of all in Sunday dree in pursuit of splash stories. Over the


last two nights, if you have been watching, you will have seen a


private detective talking about how he was hired, after the phone


hacking scandal had begun, to spy on targets for the paper. This


report contains flash photo-y. After we revealed the astonishing


extent of News of the World surveillance last night, we can


show more surveillance taken by the private detective, Derek Webb. Here


is television presenter, Richard Madeley, blissfully unaware's being


watched. In these images he's with his family in London. My then


teenage daughter and her teenage boyfriend are in the centre of


these shots, that is pretty repulsive, that some creepy private


detective is spying on my daughter, as well as on me. That's just so


yuky. I think at a visceral level, we know when there is something


wrong, we know when somebody is behaving badly or a corporation is


behaving badly, we don't know or need to know if it is legal or not,


we know it is wrong. To follow me for no good reason, I have racked


my brains for what I was doing in 2006, I was living an ordinary life,


I have no skeletons in my closet, to be pursued for five days, that


phrase, the banality of evil, it is creepy. Derek Webb would video tape


News of the World targets. He would pass it on to journalists at News


of the World. Some of these tapes underpinned exclusive, many of the


surveillance jobs revealed little more than people going about their


every day lives. Take this family hole day, for example, the private


detective was dispatched to the West Country, for den tais in


spring 2006, to watch a journalist, called Anna Fazackerley, the


newspaper thought she was having an affair with Boris Johnson. Here she


is on the beach with her family, she's on the left with her brother.


She was on holiday with her mum and basically doing a lot of walking,


round Tintagel and various other places. I spent a week down there,


probably over a week, they hired a car for me. Did it result in


anything or not? It didn't. I was unaware that there was also people


following Boris Johnson in London. At the same time. They were hired


by News of the World? Yes, but I wasn't aware of it. If Boris


Johnson thought a bike would amount to counter surveillance, he was


wrong. They supplied a bike to me, from News of the World building,


they brought a bike out to me, I parked my car and followed Boris


Johnson around on a bike. Another cabinet minister was targeted in


2004, Home Secretary, David Blunkett, was having an affair with


the publisher of the Spectator Magazine. I was asked to follow


Kimberly Quin around, I followed her around for something like 17-20


continuous days. On one particular day she loaded the child in the car,


she drove to Kensington and parked nearby David Blunkett, they got


photographers down there and photographers took photographs on


the doorstep of David Blunkett and her. But that made big news? That


was big news, yes. That was big news. Newsnight has obtained copies


of News of the World financial records, confirming that Derek Webb


was paid for surveillance by the News of the World. In January 2004,


they paid �1,050 for his surveillance of Stephen Twigg MP,


�300 for Charles Clarke, and �1,25 for surveillance of Maxine Carr,


the former parter of owe ham murderer, Ian Huntley. Derek Webb


said after the phone hacking scandal emerged, with the jailing


of Glenn Mulcaire in 200, the documents became less specific.


This one simply says Brompton Watch. They knew I was doing the work,


they were very pleased with the work I was doing. It was leading to


headlines? Yes. So I was doing this work for them. I was aware they


knew about it, because I was being fed back by journalist, different


journalists saying excellent work, excellent work and they couldn't


have done it without me. It seems the new management at News


International are clear to put clean water between them and the


past. On Monday they said it was wrong to use surveillance on


lawyers acting for phone hacking victims. What would your answer to


them be, if they say to you now, we don't want anything to do with that


eight or nine years of work you did for us, it was a mistake, we


shouldn't have got you to do it. We are a little bit embarrassed with b


it, what would you say to that? would be very surprised. I don't


think they were embarrassed by it. They were commissioning it? They


were commissioning it and being pleased with the work. The most


controversial surveillance jobs were on lawyers trying to sue News


of the World. It is worth noting one leading MP on the select


committee, Tom Watson, was also watched. The circumstances around


these cases will be on a long list of tough questions in parliament


tomorrow for James Murdoch. The Home Secretary is still in her


job tonight, David Cameron says she has his complete support, despite


the fact that the head of the Border Force, whom she suspended,


says she misled parliament Select Committee admits she has no idea


how many undesirables came into Britain this summer but says it is


not her fault. The opposition are making hay over the Government


embarrassment, but they haven't drawn blood yet. What do we know


that we didn't yesterday? Great deal of parliamentary time was


expended on it today, it didn't just dominate Prime Minister's


Questions, it was a three-hour debate initiated by the Labour


Party. Having sat through every minute of it, I'm none the wiser.


We have two essentially contradictory explanations for why


these border controls were eased for non-unions, Theresa May says


there was a pilot scheme for Europeans, and Brodie Clark, the


head of the Border Force exceeded his authority, he says he didn't.


Labour, having found such a poisonous issue in Government, seem


to be relishing turning the tables. You talked about drawing fresh


blood, I don't think they did. she safe in her job? That could


depend on Brodie Clark. By resigning he has given himself the


freedom to speak out. He will exercise that freedom next week


before the home affairs select commity. If no new facts emerge


that, we will have to wait until January, when the biggest of three


inquiry is due to report. That could ease the pressure. A question


has been raised tonight, that's whether they both might be right.


Labour's last immigration minister says there was discretion exercised


by the Border Agency when Labour was in Government. So Mr Clarke


could have thought he was using existing discretion, tacitly


approved by the Home Office, nothing to do with Mrs May's pilot.


If that is the case, it raises the whole relationship between


departments and agencies, and how they are held to account. It isth


has happened to all of us. How many times, for even a fleeting moment,


have you kicked yourself and wondered if only you had thought of


that. If only, in other words, one's brain worked just a little


bit better, or faster. As scientists come to understand more


about how the brain works, is it conceivable that medicine could


make that enhance pt possible. We have all had to endure drunks and


dope smokers who think they are being profound, when they are off


their heads. Suppose a pill could Our brain is unique. It is the most


complex organ in the human body. It is 100 billion nerve cells,


connecting to shape our memories, thoughts and aspirations. Most of


us want to reach our true potential, now, science and technology are


offering to take us beyond human. Drugs and implants to turbo charge


our brains. But just how far do we You are a fighter pilot on a long


demanding mission. Your life and that of your colleagues depends on


you being awake and alert all the time. There are drugs you can take


to keep you focused. Would you take them? This is one of those drugs,


Medvedev, it is normally glrb midazolam, it is normally


prescribed for those who need wakefulness. The military have


tested toth to see if it improves performance. There is an


underground set of people taking it as a brain booster, because they


think it improves their cognitive powers. I have come to the


university for mind sciences and in a moment I will try it for myself.


I have taken midazolam a few times, - primarily for the ability to


increase wakefulness and concentrate and stay awake for


extended for extended periods of time, 30 hours. Pycroft is in his


second year at Oxford University, he sees no difference between the


drug and caffeine. He acknowledges sourcing the drugs is far risker,


he's getting hold of them over the Internet. If I was going to obtain


it, there are a variety of websites on-line which one can access and


purchase pills or powered form and have them delivered to one's


doorstep. The reality is it is pretty easy for someone with a


credit card or a bit of cash to go and obtain some of these compounds


Anders Sandberg has a background in computing and neuroscience, he's


IRA searcher at Oxford University's future and humanity institute. He


talks openly about taking could go any of drugs. It is a big question


of how much of an enhancement to be. It is smaller than I would like it


to be, that is not an ethical problem. That is research that


needs to be done. There is also the question whether the students using


these drugs to the best way. Just staying up all night studying might


not be the smartest way, you need the sleep to consolidate your


memory. Some cognitive enhancer, such as Ritalin, are classed as


controlled drugs, modafinil is not. It is not illegal to buy it on-line,


but it is illegal to supply it without a prescription. We have all


heard about students drinking coffee or taking caffeine tablets


to stay awake all night to cram for an exam, or finish an essay. Now


there is evidence they are taking something more potent. There is


little hard data to what taking what. We conducted a poll of


Newsnight viewers and New Scientist The survey gives us only Anwar he


can total snapshot of the world of smart - anecdotal snapshot of the


world of smart drugs. It could lead to a two-tier society. There are


people out there, not just willing, but able to source the drugs, and


take them. They are like earlier doctors of technology. Maybe the


whole world isn't taking them, but a section of society that is. That


raises social and ethical issues. Quite aside from safety, we need to


start thinking about whether people should be allowed to take these


drugs if they are taking exams, for example, or if they are at


university. Is it a bit like performance-enhancing drugs in


sport, which we don't allow people to use. I'm back in Cambridge to


find out the effect a cognitive enhancing drug has on me. There are


safety concerns, and we have been through a questionaire of what is


safe four today. James Rowe is a neurologist, and part of a research


team, testing compound drugs like modafinil, to see if they help with


Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's. In this capsule I have put


modafinil or a placebo. I won't know, nor will the person doing the


test today. If you would like to take that.


There we go. How do we actually conduct this test?


This is our second trip to the Cambridge unit. I'm about to take


this tablet. Again, I don't know if it is the placebo or the real


modafinil. And now I have to wait for a couple


of hours for the drug to take effect.


Provigil Sahakian is also part of the Cambridge team - Professor


Sahakian is also part of the Cambridge team. She has done


research saying sleep-deprived surgeons work better on modafinil.


She believes the drugs could play a wider role in society. Academy of


medical science reported in 2008, showed even a small 10% improvement


in a memory score could lead to a higher A-level grade or degree


class. That is a big improvement. As a society we could perhaps move


forward if we all had a form of cognitive enhancement that was safe.


Taking drugs to enhance cognition, may be limited by the brain itself.


But there are those who think we could go further, by adding whole


dimensions to our brains, artificially. Back in 1998, Kevin


Warwick became the world's first sigh boring, part human and part


robot. He had a chip implanted in his arm, and wired up to his


nervous system. His wife had a similar operation, and their's


became the first human nervous systems to commune Kate


electronically over the Internet. Show me what you can do with the


magnets. This is nominal, but you can pull it around. His Phd


students are working on similar leans. Ian has had magnets stitched


into the end of his fingers to see what it is like to have a sixth,


magnetic sense. And Professor Warwick's latest project is a mini-


rat-like robot, controlled by human brain cells. With actual human


brains. He thinks human enhancement is challenging the way we think of


our own limitations, and how we reach out to others. We have


already achieved with my implants, nervous system to nervous system


communication, a telegraphic communication. Clearly the next


step is brain-to-brain. Basics of thought communication. The big


advantages of that are we won't have to commune Kate in this


mechanical speech form, but we will be - commune Kate in this


mechanical form, but in thoughts. In Cambridge I'm doing an


experimentation of my own. I have to complete two sets of compute


irgames over an hour-and-a-half. To test my powers of memory, strategy


and planning. And to see if modafinil has any effect on me.


If I said to you 1, 2, 3 you would say 3, 2, 1. The first one is 5, 1.


1, 5. That is everything done, just to rate how you are feeling. How


are you feeling? I suppose physically I'm feeling more myself,


so if I had to guess I would say that last time was when I was given


the modafinil. It is really very marginal. We will find out if I was


right in a minute. In our pressurised society, we


might be tempted to pop a pill to achieve the best we can, the


fastest we can. But what if there were drugs that can make us kinder,


more considerate, more moral. Scientists are about to start tests


on a range of hormones that could do just that. They call it, moral


enhancement. So one could certainly imagine reducing the testosterone


level. Testosterone generally tends to make people slightly more


aggressive, and also make us less likely to watch faces. We become


less interested in trying to figure out what other people think when we


are high on testosterone. We also become more risk-taking, that is


problematic in certain situations, in the stock market or the sports


field. Bioet thirst, Professor John Harris, supports the idea of


cognitive enhancements, but sees risk in dabbling with people's


values. Someone isn't morally enhanced to do things of which


other others approve. They are morally enhanced if they are better


capable of making moral judgments, better capable of considering


alternative, realising that the consequences of their actions


matter. Realising the larger context in which they act. Most of


that will be more achievable through cognitive enhancement than


moral enhancement. Moment of truth. I have to ask you, can you guess,


can you tell me which day you thought you took the modafinil.


is hard, it is marginal, if I was forced to guess, I would say the


first time is when I had the real modafinil. That is interesting, you


are not correct. Today you had the modafinil. Really, that is


interesting, I would definitely say I feel more myself today. Which is


very strange. Also on the test when it came to planning, moving the


balls around on the screen to match the two displays. The one I don't


like. You did very well and you did even better today on the modafinil.


On the memory recognition task my score went up to 9 out of ten, from


8 out of 10, a 9% increase. We saw striking improvements in memory,


planning abilities and impulsiveity. It is human nature to want to push


against our limitation, but what about the risks? My tests with


modafinil were medically superadvised and involved just one


dose. With these drugs we just don't know the long-term effects on


the brain. I think it would be great if the Government looked at


it with the pharmaceutical industry, and said if you can show efficacy


we will regulate the drugs in the normal way, and perhaps people can


go to their GP and ask can they take the drug. If safety can be


proven, some see no reason to hold back. It is difficult to think of a


plausible place to set an upper limit to intelligence or cognitive


powers. If we can improve our could go any of powers, and by doing so


shorten our learning time, and allow education to operate from a


higher base, it might be not only good for individuals, actually, but


cost effective for society. We can increase the power of our brain


through exercise and sleep, and diet. But the attraction of a pill


that makes you smarter won't go away. It might mean a difference of


just a few per cent now, but what if that was 50%, 100%? Would we


still say no? With us now is the Professor of clinical


neuropsychology from Cambridge, Barbara Sahakian, whom you saw, and


the author of Why Solutions Don't Work In A ComPlex World, Bryan


Appleyard. Do you think the pills should be available to anyone who


wants them? They can't be, because they haven't done the long-term


safety studies for healthy people. They would be dangerous to make


them available. They need some studies done. They currently


shouldn't be available because which don't know the long-term


consequences? That's correct. Some younger people are taking them and


the brain is still in development, well into young adulthood.


would say young people shouldn't take them? Obviously if you have a


neuro-psychiatric illness, you might need the drugs, if you are a


healthy child and your brain is in development. The healthy young man


we saw at Oxford University, clearly very smart, claimed that


these pills enhanced his performance. He shouldn't be taking


them in your judgment, because we don't know the long-term


consequences? We have done studies at Cambridge University, and we


find improvements in healthy people. But we do these acute studies. He


is taking them long-term, he's neglecting his sleep, it is a very,


he's buying them over the Internet, which is a very dangerous way to


get hold of drugs. Leaving aside the question of whether they are


reliably sourced. Supposing they can be reliably manufactureed and,


furthermore, there is no long-term damage caused by extensive use of


these things, Appleyard, you're - Bryan Appleyard, you are a clever


guy, don't you want to be cleverer? I don't know what that means, there


is a bigger issue here, particularly in the use of the word


"enhancement", people talk about moral enhancing. The word


"enhancement", we only have one yardstick of human consciousness,


that is human consciousness. If you go beyond human enhancement what


would it be like, would it be like Osama Bin Laden. Do you think


society would benefit, let's leave aside the question of sourcing and


long-term damage, assuming they are safe and reliably manufactured,


would society be better off? think that you know, if you talk


about improving people's memory, and their ability to plan, problem


solve, we have showed in a recent study, with imperial college, that


sleep deprived doctors do much better on this, they have much


lower side-effects than taking caffeine, coffee. Do you think


these things should be available on the NHS? That is a different


discussion all together. Because that has to do with the cost.


asking what you think? Certainly for neuro-psychiatric patients and


people with brain injury, yes I do. Ordinary people? On the NHS? Well,


I think there is a difference between helping somebody to be


normalised, and then enhancement is a different order. When it comes to


enhancement, those who pay should be able to do it? It is an


interesting social and ethical problem. As this was brought up


earlier, on the video, because it is important that we make access.


But what I would say, Jeremy, is there are other ways, there is


exercise, education, these are great ways to boost cognition. We


don't always have to use a drug. You don't have a problem with


people taking lots of exercise and the rest of it? Absolutely not.


problem is specifically with what chemical reactions may be taking


place as a consequence of taking medication? There are two issues,


one is the consequences, and the other is it a good thing in the


wider sense of affecting what it is to be human. I don't think we have


the faintist idea what enhancing a human being is. - faintest idea of


what enhancing a human being is. I think convincing people they can


live their normal lives better by taking this chemical is a step too


far. Obviously we enhance people in all sorts of ways, we wear glasses


and take exercises, and education is enhancement. There is a line in


which you start saying, you will take a drug, all the time, in order


to be a different superior being is very dubious, it seems to me. It is


taking us away from the social norms with which we move.


Presumably you would get circumstances in which employers


would say, I will give you the job but take this pill all the time?


can guarantee that human beings to be what they are, they would use


the drugs to produce the perfect soldier. These would be used in


that way. There is already owerings, frequently when I speak to students,


they say they don't want to take the drugs and there is pressure on


them to take T the question of coercion is there. That is like an


argument for compulsory drunkenness, it is peer pressure? It is peer


pressure, I know Nature did an on- line survey and people responded.


These on-line surveys are worthless, it is not a controlled sample?


is not. Why are you citing it? interesting feature is the issue of


coercion, when asked if children should be given the drugs if they


are healthy, most of the people said no. When asked if they would


give the drug to their child if other children in the classroom


were taking these drugs, they said, yes. The issue of coercion comes up


again, it is only in trusting in that regard. Do you also believe


the question that was cited in the film there, that Brian has already


referred to, that there is a capacity for moral enhancement?


think it is very difficult to discuss what people mean by moral


enhancement. At least with cognition we have objective tests.


We can say whether your memory as improved and by how much, we can


talk about whether your planning has improved. This is much more


difficult. It is nonsense, isn't it, moral enhancement is the capacity,


surely, to make a judgment, based upon your natural capabilities?


Well, neuroscientists would also talk, for instance, about cognitive


control, being able to control your impulses and your behaviour. There


are other forms that are perhaps more easy to measure. We have to


leave it there, unfortunately. We have a newed long enough on the


bones of contention. Emily gets a go and is sharpening her knashers,


I think they are her's! Good night. Hello, another mild


night out there. Later on we could see heavy rain arriving in the


south west of England. Could make for miserable driving conditions in


Somerset, Devon and Dorset, and South Wales. That pulse of rain


goes northwards during the day, the afternoon could be damp through the


west of the Pennine. In the south a grey start, brightening up across


East Anglia and south-east England. Sunny spells coming through, and


mild the South-West, wet, possibly very wet, by afternoon it should be


dryer and maybe brighter. Today dull and damp in South Wales, to


the west we should brighten up. Sunshine is possible here. By and


large it is looking like a fine day in Northern Ireland. We will see


some cloud, but we should get some sunshine as well. A dry and bright


day again across much of North West Scotland. Elsewhere across Scotland


it starts dry, but outbreaks of rain working their way in. As for


Friday, we will see another band of rain moving in across Northern


Ireland, slowly that will work into parts of South-West Scotland. For


Edinburgh and Inverness, we could see sunshine. Cloud across the


country on Friday. It is still mild, temperatures above average, 14-16


degrees. A slice of sunshine during Friday, only ahead of the next band


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