09/11/2011 Newsnight


09/11/2011

Investors fear Italy could become the next victim of the debt crisis after its cost of borrowing reaches a record high. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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The cliche about the eurocrisis is that the politicians responsible

:00:08.:00:12.

have been kicking the can down the road. Today the road has just about

:00:12.:00:16.

run out. Europe's most comical Prime

:00:16.:00:19.

Minister is quitting the stage in favour of a Government of

:00:19.:00:23.

technocrats. One after another, the paymasters of Europe impose

:00:23.:00:27.

Governments, but where does that leave European democracy? We show

:00:27.:00:30.

the latest victim of the News of the World surveillance, what was

:00:30.:00:34.

done to him. It is the banality of evil, isn't

:00:34.:00:39.

it. It is really pathetic. And at the same time, kind of creepy.

:00:40.:00:44.

are you finding it? She was happy enough to get the job, but can the

:00:44.:00:48.

Home Secretary hang on to it? This pill promises to enhance the

:00:48.:00:52.

way your brain works. We will try it. Does our increasing knowledge

:00:52.:00:56.

of how the organ functions mean we should all be able to take drugs

:00:56.:01:06.
:01:06.:01:09.

It was obviously expecting too much to hope that the mere removal from

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the scene of a man with an orange face and improbable hair, would

:01:13.:01:17.

salvage the biggest political project in Europe. The news that

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Silvio Berlusconi will quit the Italian Prime Ministership to spend

:01:20.:01:24.

more time at his very tasteful parties, did nothing to make it

:01:24.:01:29.

cheaper for his indebted country to borrow money. The Greeks, meanwhile,

:01:29.:01:32.

can't agree who should be their new Prime Minister. Underlying

:01:33.:01:35.

everything is the question can unelected Governments of the kind

:01:35.:01:45.
:01:45.:02:00.

now being imposed, do any better at Today it was Italy's turn to get

:02:00.:02:06.

squeezed by the bond market monster. 24 hours after Silvio Berlusconi

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finally succumbed to its embrace, Italy's lending power was knocked

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for six. This morning, a key link in the global trading system, the

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brokerage film, LCH.Clearnet, raised the collateral needed to

:02:21.:02:31.
:02:31.:02:31.

trade Italy's debt. Suddenly the third-biggest economy in the Europe

:02:32.:02:37.

was breaching 7%. Breaching the 7% mark was put Portugal and Ireland

:02:37.:02:42.

and Greece into bailout territory. Very few people are buying Italian

:02:42.:02:47.

debt, save the ECB. There are lots of people selling Italian debt, or

:02:47.:02:51.

who want to sell Italian debt. One of the problems with Italian debt

:02:51.:02:57.

is everybody, every investor in the world, almost has got some Italian

:02:57.:03:00.

exposure. The elected Governments of southern Europe are finding out

:03:00.:03:04.

not just that they are powerless in the face of the bond market, but

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that other elected Governments, central banks, can enrage the

:03:09.:03:15.

monster, simply by doing nothing to help. Last Friday, I asked

:03:15.:03:18.

President Sarkozy whether it was just for France and Germany to be

:03:18.:03:25.

trying to change the Governments of Greece and Italy? He took offence,

:03:25.:03:29.

saying we, islanders, misunderstood the complexties of Europe. But it

:03:30.:03:39.

has come to pass that both of these Governments have fallen. In Greece

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today, the Prime Minister said farewell. Nobody replaced him.

:03:42.:03:46.

Coalition talks stalled. It scarcely matters, nobody in Greece

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can change the economic policy of Greece at the ballot box. But

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Greece, at least, has a bailout plan.

:03:57.:04:01.

Italy is too big to bail. Only the European Central Bank, buying its

:04:01.:04:06.

debt, is keeping it solvent. But the ECB has been stepping back from

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supporting Italy. In Italy, there probably needs to be very fast

:04:11.:04:16.

approval of some of the reforms. Maybe the promise of Berlusconi to

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resign needs to be put into action more quickly. But essentially,

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Italy needs to prove that it is credible on its own. And then, you

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might, or might not have, a more forceful ECB action, to try to put

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a floor on the market here. To save Italy from the bond market's hairy

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fist would need about one trillion euros. The original plan was to

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raise it through a special fund, the EFSF, but nobody will lend to

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that. The G20 turned to the IMF, but raising extra money there is

:04:52.:04:55.

politically hard to do, so it may have to be the European Central

:04:55.:05:01.

Bank that sorts this out. But it is a nail-biter. The European Central

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Bank has to benefit - has the benefit of flexibility, it doesn't

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have to go to national parliaments to buy a lot of Government bonds. A

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lot of people are calling for it to step in. It would make sense, in

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one way, however that is when politics kick in. The Germans, in

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particular, are very sensitive about the ECB playing, effectively,

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a role which should be shouldered by national Governments. That was

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the dilemma the leaders faced in Brussels, now, though the dilemma

:05:31.:05:37.

is the same, there is, two weeks on, one less singer in the euro band.

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Mr Berlusconi will soon vacate office too. For nearly two years

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now, it has been obvious that northern Europe would have to sees

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control of southern Europe's finances to justify a bailout.

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Those who imagined it would be done gently imagined wrong. We knew that

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with joining the euro, you surrendered sovereignity, few

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realised how much democracy you surrendered as well. A break-up of

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the eurozone would be extremely costly, it would come with huge

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political cost and a huge economic cost, not only for Europe, but

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probably for the world economy. Including, of course, Britain

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itself. But at the end of the day, the choice may be between that and

:06:17.:06:21.

the southern member-states in the eurozone, accepting a decade of

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austerity measures, imposed by people sitting in Frankfurt,

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Brussels and Berlin. You can't kill the bond market, but

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you can pacify it, to put the financial monster back into its box,

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Europe has to start acting like one country, and show the periphery

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some tough love. It wasn't the aeroplanes, it was beauty killed

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the beast. Now to try to make sense of this, from Washington we're

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joined by a former IMF official, brought back to the Italian

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Government in 2001, to help clear up a previous mess. With us here in

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the studio are the editor of the economist, and the Greek economist.

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Is Berlusconi's departure going to solve the Italian problem? I don't

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think it will solve it by itselfful you can see everything today and

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what Paul just said, everything is in bad way. His going is a step

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forward. He is a man who has singularly failed to do anything,

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to really push Italy forward. He failed in his attempts to try to

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persuade the other Europeans that he had an answer to Italy's

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problems. What is it that technocrats, such as yourself, can

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achieve, that a democratically elected Prime Minister, like Mr

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Berlusconi and his Government, can't do? Well, probably the main

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point is knowledge. A take know crate would come with the basic

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knowledge of how - technocrat would come with a basic knowledge of how

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the market works, while politicians very often dream of the way that

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the market works. So the basic difference would be knowledge. The

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technocrat can bring more knowledge than the politician, they don't

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have that. Whether they can implement this knowledge is a

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different story. So what sort of thing does a politician not dare to

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do that a technocrat does dare contemplate? Well, up to now, you

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know, the solution to the Italian problems were rather obvious to

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many people. The situation was not disastrous, Italy has had a public

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debt of 120% for almost 20 years now without major difficulty. But

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the international situation changed, and having 120% made it a little

:08:54.:08:57.

bit heavier, and required some reaction on the part of the

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politicians. Reaction in the modification of the financial, of

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the labour market, which almost makes it impossible to change

:09:05.:09:09.

anything in Italy. If the Government want to fire somebody

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they can't do it. So the implication of this is that

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democratic Governments, because they rely upon the votes of the

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people, are incapable of solving the sort of challenges that both

:09:21.:09:25.

Greece and Italy are faced with, as a consequence of membership of the

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euro? It is quite incredible to say. That it is totally unacceptable.

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What we have got here is the bond market, not only dk Tateing policy,

:09:33.:09:41.

but now pointing - dictating policy, but pointing politicians in that

:09:41.:09:45.

way. The democratic will of people is perfectly capable of solving a

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crisis they should be given a chance to be heard. What do you

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make of the argument? I don't entirely agree. I do agree Europe

:09:53.:09:57.

last this huge democracy problem I do agree that what's going to

:09:57.:10:00.

happen is fairly soon the technocrats, be it Mario Monti in

:10:00.:10:04.

Italy, or whatever, will fairly soon have to go to the people.

:10:04.:10:07.

Because nothing matters without democratic legitimacy. One of the

:10:07.:10:12.

problems is the democratic leaders have failed. Berlusconi was man

:10:12.:10:17.

with a big democratic mandate, yet he managed to run a place that grew

:10:17.:10:22.

slower than anywhere, other than Zimbabwe and Haiti. That is not a

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good record. Let's see why democratic leaders have failed.

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They have failed because they have not been listening to their own

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people, but the dictates of the markets, the bond markets and

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various financial institutions. They have been taking measures

:10:35.:10:38.

against their own people, and manifesto against the interests of

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the economy itself. They have been adopting austerity measures which

:10:42.:10:46.

has made the crisis worst. These measures have been dictated by the

:10:46.:10:51.

IMF and other multilateral organisations, which appear as the

:10:51.:10:56.

know-all technocrats and have the wisdom, and have created a terrible

:10:56.:11:00.

mess in Europe. You're right about half of it, pushing austerity

:11:00.:11:03.

through in some places was a mistake. What you are wrong about

:11:03.:11:07.

is a lot of the things that the IMF have been trying to force. All the

:11:07.:11:12.

things to do with unleashing growth, those are the things which wouldn't

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have made any difference to what you are just talking about. That is

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about opening up economies, making them grow faster, it is not

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impingeing austerity. You were talking about what you would have

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to do, for example, about labour conditions, mobility of labour,

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wage rates and other ways of making the Italian economy competitive

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again, how does a Government of technocrats, and unelected

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Government, impose that? Obviously it can't impose it, but it can do a

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better job of informing people of what needs to be done. I think that

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was the problem. You know, the Italians have been told for many,

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many years that there was no problem, nothing needed to be done,

:11:54.:12:00.

when the situation was progressively getting worse. So if

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you have this kind of Government then sooner or later you get in

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trouble. The technical people would know better, and would say the

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consequences and what would happen continuing with the policies.

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Whether the people would allow them to make the changes is another

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story. The technocrat such as yourself and we will see in Italy

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now, is this essentially a mechanic, the car is being driven by somebody

:12:28.:12:35.

else. It is being driven in Germany or on the bond markets? The bond

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market does not exist. They exist that people want to invest, people

:12:38.:12:42.

like me or you or somebody else. This idea that there is a bond

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market, like an individual acting in some strange way, this I don't

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buy that. People will buy bonds if they think that they will be repaid

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at some point. This is the point. If you lose confidence in a country,

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then sooner or later you get some particular consequences. I'm very

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familiar with the Argentine situation, I should make a quick

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point about that. Then Argentina went into trouble in 2001, went

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into trouble with a debt to GDP ratio that was 50% of GDP, and a

:13:19.:13:25.

deficit that was about 3%. But at some point the people were lending

:13:25.:13:29.

money to the country, and they lost confidence, overnight the interest

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rate went up by 2,000 base points. The country got in trouble. It is

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not a question of the bond marketing reacting in some strange

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way. It is a question of the country not doing what they should

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do. Specifically in the context of Europe, this is a crisis that has

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gone from one thing to another. It is a monetary crisis, a banking

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crisis, this is in danger, is it not, of becoming a political crisis.

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The danger here, surely, is that the e treems capitalise - extremes

:13:59.:14:01.

capitalise when there is no democratically legitimate

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Government in a country, what do you think? I think the euro has

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failed, it is very clear the euro has fail. There are deep problems

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of economy in Europe, very clearly. But there are also problems of

:14:13.:14:17.

policy now. There are problems of national sovereignty, that has

:14:17.:14:20.

transgressed across the periphery, and problems of democracy. In that

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context, business as normal, life as normal is impossible. What is

:14:24.:14:28.

happening now across the periphery of Europe is a groundswell of anger.

:14:28.:14:32.

Greece is the canary in the mine when it comes to this. Greece is

:14:32.:14:37.

becoming fast ungovernable, that is because of policies and measures

:14:37.:14:41.

introduced by so-called technocrats which were manifesto wrong. The

:14:42.:14:47.

measures introduced in 2010, by the IMF, in the EU, were manifesto

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incorrect, in terms of their focus, and in terms of what they brought

:14:50.:14:54.

to the economy. What do you make of the political dangers? I agree very

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much with the idea that it plays to the extremes. If you have any

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situation where people feel their views are not being represented,

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you are bound to see things changing. You could see that

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changing in Germany. Germany you have a population who are very

:15:09.:15:13.

angry about the euro, you have no parties that actually represent

:15:13.:15:17.

that. That is always f you have that degree of disconnect, and you

:15:17.:15:20.

could argue you are saying a little bit p America in a completely

:15:20.:15:25.

different way. We are all standing apart from this, because we are not

:15:25.:15:30.

part of the euro, although we will suffer and are suffering in a

:15:30.:15:34.

little while. If you could fix it, what would you do? From a British

:15:34.:15:39.

point of view? If you were running the euro now, what would you do?

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The one big bazooka sat there throughout the thing, is the

:15:43.:15:46.

European Central Bank. They have always been the people who could

:15:46.:15:50.

create a firewall around Italy and Spain. And their reluctance to do

:15:50.:15:53.

so has been partly because of German pressure, but they have two

:15:54.:15:57.

jobs. One is to keep our money, but the other is to keep the whole

:15:57.:16:02.

system going. There, I think, in the end, it comes down to the ECB.

:16:02.:16:07.

Why are you shaking your head? think the ECB can provide liquidity,

:16:07.:16:11.

it will appear in the markets tomorrow and buy a lot of Italian

:16:11.:16:17.

bonds. It can do and do that repeatedly. The problem is a

:16:17.:16:21.

problem of austerity, and an economy that doesn't work. That

:16:21.:16:27.

cannot be solved by the ECB. I doubt this problem can be solved

:16:27.:16:32.

within the confines of the European monetary European. You think the

:16:32.:16:35.

euro has failed? Yes, I think several countries on the periphery

:16:35.:16:39.

will be forced to exit. Then there will be some dramatic

:16:39.:16:42.

transformation at the core, break of it into two, or some other

:16:42.:16:46.

arrangement. In the current form, it is unsustainable t will not be

:16:46.:16:52.

sustained. An immensely wealthy youngish man

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is believed to have arrived in this country tonight. It is not entirely

:16:57.:16:59.

pleasure. James Murdoch is before the Parliamentary Committee

:16:59.:17:02.

investigating how his newspaper, the News of the World, hacked into

:17:02.:17:07.

the phones of all in Sunday dree in pursuit of splash stories. Over the

:17:07.:17:12.

last two nights, if you have been watching, you will have seen a

:17:12.:17:16.

private detective talking about how he was hired, after the phone

:17:16.:17:21.

hacking scandal had begun, to spy on targets for the paper. This

:17:21.:17:28.

report contains flash photo-y. After we revealed the astonishing

:17:28.:17:32.

extent of News of the World surveillance last night, we can

:17:32.:17:38.

show more surveillance taken by the private detective, Derek Webb. Here

:17:39.:17:43.

is television presenter, Richard Madeley, blissfully unaware's being

:17:43.:17:49.

watched. In these images he's with his family in London. My then

:17:49.:17:53.

teenage daughter and her teenage boyfriend are in the centre of

:17:53.:17:56.

these shots, that is pretty repulsive, that some creepy private

:17:56.:18:01.

detective is spying on my daughter, as well as on me. That's just so

:18:01.:18:04.

yuky. I think at a visceral level, we know when there is something

:18:04.:18:09.

wrong, we know when somebody is behaving badly or a corporation is

:18:09.:18:13.

behaving badly, we don't know or need to know if it is legal or not,

:18:13.:18:18.

we know it is wrong. To follow me for no good reason, I have racked

:18:18.:18:23.

my brains for what I was doing in 2006, I was living an ordinary life,

:18:24.:18:29.

I have no skeletons in my closet, to be pursued for five days, that

:18:29.:18:36.

phrase, the banality of evil, it is creepy. Derek Webb would video tape

:18:36.:18:41.

News of the World targets. He would pass it on to journalists at News

:18:41.:18:46.

of the World. Some of these tapes underpinned exclusive, many of the

:18:46.:18:48.

surveillance jobs revealed little more than people going about their

:18:48.:18:52.

every day lives. Take this family hole day, for example, the private

:18:52.:18:56.

detective was dispatched to the West Country, for den tais in

:18:56.:19:00.

spring 2006, to watch a journalist, called Anna Fazackerley, the

:19:00.:19:05.

newspaper thought she was having an affair with Boris Johnson. Here she

:19:05.:19:09.

is on the beach with her family, she's on the left with her brother.

:19:09.:19:17.

She was on holiday with her mum and basically doing a lot of walking,

:19:17.:19:22.

round Tintagel and various other places. I spent a week down there,

:19:22.:19:29.

probably over a week, they hired a car for me. Did it result in

:19:29.:19:35.

anything or not? It didn't. I was unaware that there was also people

:19:35.:19:40.

following Boris Johnson in London. At the same time. They were hired

:19:40.:19:44.

by News of the World? Yes, but I wasn't aware of it. If Boris

:19:44.:19:49.

Johnson thought a bike would amount to counter surveillance, he was

:19:49.:19:52.

wrong. They supplied a bike to me, from News of the World building,

:19:52.:19:59.

they brought a bike out to me, I parked my car and followed Boris

:19:59.:20:04.

Johnson around on a bike. Another cabinet minister was targeted in

:20:04.:20:08.

2004, Home Secretary, David Blunkett, was having an affair with

:20:08.:20:14.

the publisher of the Spectator Magazine. I was asked to follow

:20:14.:20:20.

Kimberly Quin around, I followed her around for something like 17-20

:20:20.:20:30.
:20:30.:20:30.

continuous days. On one particular day she loaded the child in the car,

:20:30.:20:35.

she drove to Kensington and parked nearby David Blunkett, they got

:20:35.:20:38.

photographers down there and photographers took photographs on

:20:38.:20:43.

the doorstep of David Blunkett and her. But that made big news? That

:20:43.:20:49.

was big news, yes. That was big news. Newsnight has obtained copies

:20:49.:20:52.

of News of the World financial records, confirming that Derek Webb

:20:52.:20:57.

was paid for surveillance by the News of the World. In January 2004,

:20:57.:21:04.

they paid �1,050 for his surveillance of Stephen Twigg MP,

:21:04.:21:09.

�300 for Charles Clarke, and �1,25 for surveillance of Maxine Carr,

:21:09.:21:14.

the former parter of owe ham murderer, Ian Huntley. Derek Webb

:21:14.:21:20.

said after the phone hacking scandal emerged, with the jailing

:21:20.:21:25.

of Glenn Mulcaire in 200, the documents became less specific.

:21:25.:21:31.

This one simply says Brompton Watch. They knew I was doing the work,

:21:31.:21:34.

they were very pleased with the work I was doing. It was leading to

:21:34.:21:40.

headlines? Yes. So I was doing this work for them. I was aware they

:21:40.:21:47.

knew about it, because I was being fed back by journalist, different

:21:47.:21:52.

journalists saying excellent work, excellent work and they couldn't

:21:52.:21:57.

have done it without me. It seems the new management at News

:21:57.:22:00.

International are clear to put clean water between them and the

:22:00.:22:04.

past. On Monday they said it was wrong to use surveillance on

:22:04.:22:09.

lawyers acting for phone hacking victims. What would your answer to

:22:09.:22:12.

them be, if they say to you now, we don't want anything to do with that

:22:12.:22:15.

eight or nine years of work you did for us, it was a mistake, we

:22:15.:22:19.

shouldn't have got you to do it. We are a little bit embarrassed with b

:22:19.:22:25.

it, what would you say to that? would be very surprised. I don't

:22:25.:22:29.

think they were embarrassed by it. They were commissioning it? They

:22:29.:22:34.

were commissioning it and being pleased with the work. The most

:22:35.:22:37.

controversial surveillance jobs were on lawyers trying to sue News

:22:37.:22:40.

of the World. It is worth noting one leading MP on the select

:22:40.:22:44.

committee, Tom Watson, was also watched. The circumstances around

:22:44.:22:47.

these cases will be on a long list of tough questions in parliament

:22:47.:22:52.

tomorrow for James Murdoch. The Home Secretary is still in her

:22:52.:22:56.

job tonight, David Cameron says she has his complete support, despite

:22:56.:23:00.

the fact that the head of the Border Force, whom she suspended,

:23:00.:23:08.

says she misled parliament Select Committee admits she has no idea

:23:08.:23:12.

how many undesirables came into Britain this summer but says it is

:23:12.:23:17.

not her fault. The opposition are making hay over the Government

:23:17.:23:21.

embarrassment, but they haven't drawn blood yet. What do we know

:23:21.:23:24.

that we didn't yesterday? Great deal of parliamentary time was

:23:25.:23:27.

expended on it today, it didn't just dominate Prime Minister's

:23:28.:23:31.

Questions, it was a three-hour debate initiated by the Labour

:23:31.:23:34.

Party. Having sat through every minute of it, I'm none the wiser.

:23:34.:23:38.

We have two essentially contradictory explanations for why

:23:38.:23:41.

these border controls were eased for non-unions, Theresa May says

:23:41.:23:45.

there was a pilot scheme for Europeans, and Brodie Clark, the

:23:46.:23:50.

head of the Border Force exceeded his authority, he says he didn't.

:23:50.:23:54.

Labour, having found such a poisonous issue in Government, seem

:23:54.:23:58.

to be relishing turning the tables. You talked about drawing fresh

:23:58.:24:03.

blood, I don't think they did. she safe in her job? That could

:24:03.:24:06.

depend on Brodie Clark. By resigning he has given himself the

:24:06.:24:11.

freedom to speak out. He will exercise that freedom next week

:24:11.:24:15.

before the home affairs select commity. If no new facts emerge

:24:15.:24:19.

that, we will have to wait until January, when the biggest of three

:24:19.:24:22.

inquiry is due to report. That could ease the pressure. A question

:24:22.:24:28.

has been raised tonight, that's whether they both might be right.

:24:28.:24:31.

Labour's last immigration minister says there was discretion exercised

:24:31.:24:35.

by the Border Agency when Labour was in Government. So Mr Clarke

:24:35.:24:39.

could have thought he was using existing discretion, tacitly

:24:39.:24:42.

approved by the Home Office, nothing to do with Mrs May's pilot.

:24:42.:24:46.

If that is the case, it raises the whole relationship between

:24:46.:24:53.

departments and agencies, and how they are held to account. It isth

:24:53.:24:57.

has happened to all of us. How many times, for even a fleeting moment,

:24:57.:25:01.

have you kicked yourself and wondered if only you had thought of

:25:01.:25:04.

that. If only, in other words, one's brain worked just a little

:25:04.:25:08.

bit better, or faster. As scientists come to understand more

:25:08.:25:13.

about how the brain works, is it conceivable that medicine could

:25:13.:25:19.

make that enhance pt possible. We have all had to endure drunks and

:25:20.:25:23.

dope smokers who think they are being profound, when they are off

:25:23.:25:33.
:25:33.:25:52.

their heads. Suppose a pill could Our brain is unique. It is the most

:25:52.:25:58.

complex organ in the human body. It is 100 billion nerve cells,

:25:58.:26:04.

connecting to shape our memories, thoughts and aspirations. Most of

:26:04.:26:10.

us want to reach our true potential, now, science and technology are

:26:10.:26:16.

offering to take us beyond human. Drugs and implants to turbo charge

:26:16.:26:26.
:26:26.:26:34.

our brains. But just how far do we You are a fighter pilot on a long

:26:34.:26:37.

demanding mission. Your life and that of your colleagues depends on

:26:37.:26:43.

you being awake and alert all the time. There are drugs you can take

:26:43.:26:53.
:26:53.:26:54.

to keep you focused. Would you take them? This is one of those drugs,

:26:54.:26:58.

Medvedev, it is normally glrb midazolam, it is normally

:26:58.:27:03.

prescribed for those who need wakefulness. The military have

:27:03.:27:08.

tested toth to see if it improves performance. There is an

:27:08.:27:12.

underground set of people taking it as a brain booster, because they

:27:12.:27:15.

think it improves their cognitive powers. I have come to the

:27:15.:27:20.

university for mind sciences and in a moment I will try it for myself.

:27:20.:27:28.

I have taken midazolam a few times, - primarily for the ability to

:27:29.:27:33.

increase wakefulness and concentrate and stay awake for

:27:33.:27:41.

extended for extended periods of time, 30 hours. Pycroft is in his

:27:41.:27:45.

second year at Oxford University, he sees no difference between the

:27:45.:27:49.

drug and caffeine. He acknowledges sourcing the drugs is far risker,

:27:49.:27:54.

he's getting hold of them over the Internet. If I was going to obtain

:27:54.:28:02.

it, there are a variety of websites on-line which one can access and

:28:02.:28:06.

purchase pills or powered form and have them delivered to one's

:28:06.:28:11.

doorstep. The reality is it is pretty easy for someone with a

:28:11.:28:20.

credit card or a bit of cash to go and obtain some of these compounds

:28:20.:28:27.

Anders Sandberg has a background in computing and neuroscience, he's

:28:27.:28:32.

IRA searcher at Oxford University's future and humanity institute. He

:28:32.:28:37.

talks openly about taking could go any of drugs. It is a big question

:28:37.:28:42.

of how much of an enhancement to be. It is smaller than I would like it

:28:42.:28:46.

to be, that is not an ethical problem. That is research that

:28:46.:28:50.

needs to be done. There is also the question whether the students using

:28:50.:28:56.

these drugs to the best way. Just staying up all night studying might

:28:56.:29:01.

not be the smartest way, you need the sleep to consolidate your

:29:01.:29:06.

memory. Some cognitive enhancer, such as Ritalin, are classed as

:29:06.:29:09.

controlled drugs, modafinil is not. It is not illegal to buy it on-line,

:29:10.:29:13.

but it is illegal to supply it without a prescription. We have all

:29:13.:29:18.

heard about students drinking coffee or taking caffeine tablets

:29:18.:29:24.

to stay awake all night to cram for an exam, or finish an essay. Now

:29:24.:29:29.

there is evidence they are taking something more potent. There is

:29:29.:29:36.

little hard data to what taking what. We conducted a poll of

:29:36.:29:46.
:29:46.:29:53.

Newsnight viewers and New Scientist The survey gives us only Anwar he

:29:53.:30:00.

can total snapshot of the world of smart - anecdotal snapshot of the

:30:00.:30:05.

world of smart drugs. It could lead to a two-tier society. There are

:30:05.:30:09.

people out there, not just willing, but able to source the drugs, and

:30:09.:30:13.

take them. They are like earlier doctors of technology. Maybe the

:30:13.:30:18.

whole world isn't taking them, but a section of society that is. That

:30:18.:30:22.

raises social and ethical issues. Quite aside from safety, we need to

:30:22.:30:25.

start thinking about whether people should be allowed to take these

:30:25.:30:28.

drugs if they are taking exams, for example, or if they are at

:30:28.:30:32.

university. Is it a bit like performance-enhancing drugs in

:30:32.:30:41.

sport, which we don't allow people to use. I'm back in Cambridge to

:30:41.:30:46.

find out the effect a cognitive enhancing drug has on me. There are

:30:46.:30:50.

safety concerns, and we have been through a questionaire of what is

:30:50.:30:55.

safe four today. James Rowe is a neurologist, and part of a research

:30:55.:31:00.

team, testing compound drugs like modafinil, to see if they help with

:31:00.:31:06.

Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's. In this capsule I have put

:31:06.:31:11.

modafinil or a placebo. I won't know, nor will the person doing the

:31:11.:31:18.

test today. If you would like to take that.

:31:18.:31:22.

There we go. How do we actually conduct this test?

:31:22.:31:26.

This is our second trip to the Cambridge unit. I'm about to take

:31:26.:31:30.

this tablet. Again, I don't know if it is the placebo or the real

:31:30.:31:40.
:31:40.:31:40.

modafinil. And now I have to wait for a couple

:31:40.:31:46.

of hours for the drug to take effect.

:31:46.:31:54.

Provigil Sahakian is also part of the Cambridge team - Professor

:31:54.:31:58.

Sahakian is also part of the Cambridge team. She has done

:31:58.:32:02.

research saying sleep-deprived surgeons work better on modafinil.

:32:02.:32:07.

She believes the drugs could play a wider role in society. Academy of

:32:07.:32:12.

medical science reported in 2008, showed even a small 10% improvement

:32:12.:32:16.

in a memory score could lead to a higher A-level grade or degree

:32:16.:32:20.

class. That is a big improvement. As a society we could perhaps move

:32:20.:32:26.

forward if we all had a form of cognitive enhancement that was safe.

:32:26.:32:31.

Taking drugs to enhance cognition, may be limited by the brain itself.

:32:31.:32:35.

But there are those who think we could go further, by adding whole

:32:35.:32:45.
:32:45.:32:48.

dimensions to our brains, artificially. Back in 1998, Kevin

:32:48.:32:53.

Warwick became the world's first sigh boring, part human and part

:32:53.:32:58.

robot. He had a chip implanted in his arm, and wired up to his

:32:58.:33:01.

nervous system. His wife had a similar operation, and their's

:33:01.:33:05.

became the first human nervous systems to commune Kate

:33:06.:33:10.

electronically over the Internet. Show me what you can do with the

:33:10.:33:15.

magnets. This is nominal, but you can pull it around. His Phd

:33:15.:33:20.

students are working on similar leans. Ian has had magnets stitched

:33:20.:33:25.

into the end of his fingers to see what it is like to have a sixth,

:33:25.:33:30.

magnetic sense. And Professor Warwick's latest project is a mini-

:33:30.:33:34.

rat-like robot, controlled by human brain cells. With actual human

:33:34.:33:38.

brains. He thinks human enhancement is challenging the way we think of

:33:38.:33:43.

our own limitations, and how we reach out to others. We have

:33:43.:33:49.

already achieved with my implants, nervous system to nervous system

:33:49.:33:52.

communication, a telegraphic communication. Clearly the next

:33:52.:33:56.

step is brain-to-brain. Basics of thought communication. The big

:33:57.:34:01.

advantages of that are we won't have to commune Kate in this

:34:01.:34:10.

mechanical speech form, but we will be - commune Kate in this

:34:10.:34:20.
:34:20.:34:23.

mechanical form, but in thoughts. In Cambridge I'm doing an

:34:23.:34:26.

experimentation of my own. I have to complete two sets of compute

:34:26.:34:32.

irgames over an hour-and-a-half. To test my powers of memory, strategy

:34:32.:34:42.
:34:42.:34:47.

and planning. And to see if modafinil has any effect on me.

:34:47.:34:55.

If I said to you 1, 2, 3 you would say 3, 2, 1. The first one is 5, 1.

:34:55.:34:59.

1, 5. That is everything done, just to rate how you are feeling. How

:34:59.:35:05.

are you feeling? I suppose physically I'm feeling more myself,

:35:05.:35:10.

so if I had to guess I would say that last time was when I was given

:35:10.:35:14.

the modafinil. It is really very marginal. We will find out if I was

:35:14.:35:19.

right in a minute. In our pressurised society, we

:35:19.:35:23.

might be tempted to pop a pill to achieve the best we can, the

:35:23.:35:29.

fastest we can. But what if there were drugs that can make us kinder,

:35:29.:35:32.

more considerate, more moral. Scientists are about to start tests

:35:33.:35:39.

on a range of hormones that could do just that. They call it, moral

:35:39.:35:45.

enhancement. So one could certainly imagine reducing the testosterone

:35:45.:35:48.

level. Testosterone generally tends to make people slightly more

:35:48.:35:51.

aggressive, and also make us less likely to watch faces. We become

:35:51.:35:55.

less interested in trying to figure out what other people think when we

:35:55.:36:00.

are high on testosterone. We also become more risk-taking, that is

:36:00.:36:04.

problematic in certain situations, in the stock market or the sports

:36:05.:36:11.

field. Bioet thirst, Professor John Harris, supports the idea of

:36:11.:36:17.

cognitive enhancements, but sees risk in dabbling with people's

:36:17.:36:23.

values. Someone isn't morally enhanced to do things of which

:36:23.:36:26.

other others approve. They are morally enhanced if they are better

:36:26.:36:31.

capable of making moral judgments, better capable of considering

:36:31.:36:36.

alternative, realising that the consequences of their actions

:36:36.:36:40.

matter. Realising the larger context in which they act. Most of

:36:40.:36:45.

that will be more achievable through cognitive enhancement than

:36:45.:36:50.

moral enhancement. Moment of truth. I have to ask you, can you guess,

:36:50.:36:55.

can you tell me which day you thought you took the modafinil.

:36:55.:36:59.

is hard, it is marginal, if I was forced to guess, I would say the

:36:59.:37:03.

first time is when I had the real modafinil. That is interesting, you

:37:03.:37:07.

are not correct. Today you had the modafinil. Really, that is

:37:07.:37:11.

interesting, I would definitely say I feel more myself today. Which is

:37:11.:37:16.

very strange. Also on the test when it came to planning, moving the

:37:16.:37:21.

balls around on the screen to match the two displays. The one I don't

:37:21.:37:28.

like. You did very well and you did even better today on the modafinil.

:37:28.:37:36.

On the memory recognition task my score went up to 9 out of ten, from

:37:36.:37:43.

8 out of 10, a 9% increase. We saw striking improvements in memory,

:37:43.:37:48.

planning abilities and impulsiveity. It is human nature to want to push

:37:48.:37:52.

against our limitation, but what about the risks? My tests with

:37:52.:37:55.

modafinil were medically superadvised and involved just one

:37:55.:38:00.

dose. With these drugs we just don't know the long-term effects on

:38:00.:38:10.
:38:10.:38:12.

the brain. I think it would be great if the Government looked at

:38:12.:38:17.

it with the pharmaceutical industry, and said if you can show efficacy

:38:17.:38:21.

we will regulate the drugs in the normal way, and perhaps people can

:38:21.:38:25.

go to their GP and ask can they take the drug. If safety can be

:38:25.:38:31.

proven, some see no reason to hold back. It is difficult to think of a

:38:32.:38:35.

plausible place to set an upper limit to intelligence or cognitive

:38:35.:38:40.

powers. If we can improve our could go any of powers, and by doing so

:38:40.:38:44.

shorten our learning time, and allow education to operate from a

:38:44.:38:48.

higher base, it might be not only good for individuals, actually, but

:38:48.:38:53.

cost effective for society. We can increase the power of our brain

:38:53.:38:58.

through exercise and sleep, and diet. But the attraction of a pill

:38:58.:39:02.

that makes you smarter won't go away. It might mean a difference of

:39:02.:39:09.

just a few per cent now, but what if that was 50%, 100%? Would we

:39:09.:39:19.
:39:19.:39:21.

still say no? With us now is the Professor of clinical

:39:21.:39:24.

neuropsychology from Cambridge, Barbara Sahakian, whom you saw, and

:39:24.:39:31.

the author of Why Solutions Don't Work In A ComPlex World, Bryan

:39:31.:39:35.

Appleyard. Do you think the pills should be available to anyone who

:39:35.:39:38.

wants them? They can't be, because they haven't done the long-term

:39:38.:39:43.

safety studies for healthy people. They would be dangerous to make

:39:43.:39:48.

them available. They need some studies done. They currently

:39:48.:39:52.

shouldn't be available because which don't know the long-term

:39:52.:39:54.

consequences? That's correct. Some younger people are taking them and

:39:54.:39:59.

the brain is still in development, well into young adulthood.

:39:59.:40:07.

would say young people shouldn't take them? Obviously if you have a

:40:07.:40:09.

neuro-psychiatric illness, you might need the drugs, if you are a

:40:09.:40:13.

healthy child and your brain is in development. The healthy young man

:40:13.:40:17.

we saw at Oxford University, clearly very smart, claimed that

:40:17.:40:20.

these pills enhanced his performance. He shouldn't be taking

:40:20.:40:23.

them in your judgment, because we don't know the long-term

:40:23.:40:26.

consequences? We have done studies at Cambridge University, and we

:40:26.:40:31.

find improvements in healthy people. But we do these acute studies. He

:40:31.:40:35.

is taking them long-term, he's neglecting his sleep, it is a very,

:40:35.:40:38.

he's buying them over the Internet, which is a very dangerous way to

:40:38.:40:44.

get hold of drugs. Leaving aside the question of whether they are

:40:45.:40:49.

reliably sourced. Supposing they can be reliably manufactureed and,

:40:49.:40:54.

furthermore, there is no long-term damage caused by extensive use of

:40:54.:40:59.

these things, Appleyard, you're - Bryan Appleyard, you are a clever

:40:59.:41:05.

guy, don't you want to be cleverer? I don't know what that means, there

:41:05.:41:09.

is a bigger issue here, particularly in the use of the word

:41:09.:41:16.

"enhancement", people talk about moral enhancing. The word

:41:16.:41:20.

"enhancement", we only have one yardstick of human consciousness,

:41:20.:41:27.

that is human consciousness. If you go beyond human enhancement what

:41:27.:41:32.

would it be like, would it be like Osama Bin Laden. Do you think

:41:32.:41:36.

society would benefit, let's leave aside the question of sourcing and

:41:36.:41:40.

long-term damage, assuming they are safe and reliably manufactured,

:41:40.:41:44.

would society be better off? think that you know, if you talk

:41:44.:41:49.

about improving people's memory, and their ability to plan, problem

:41:49.:41:53.

solve, we have showed in a recent study, with imperial college, that

:41:53.:41:56.

sleep deprived doctors do much better on this, they have much

:41:56.:42:00.

lower side-effects than taking caffeine, coffee. Do you think

:42:00.:42:04.

these things should be available on the NHS? That is a different

:42:04.:42:08.

discussion all together. Because that has to do with the cost.

:42:08.:42:12.

asking what you think? Certainly for neuro-psychiatric patients and

:42:12.:42:18.

people with brain injury, yes I do. Ordinary people? On the NHS? Well,

:42:18.:42:24.

I think there is a difference between helping somebody to be

:42:24.:42:31.

normalised, and then enhancement is a different order. When it comes to

:42:31.:42:35.

enhancement, those who pay should be able to do it? It is an

:42:35.:42:38.

interesting social and ethical problem. As this was brought up

:42:38.:42:43.

earlier, on the video, because it is important that we make access.

:42:43.:42:47.

But what I would say, Jeremy, is there are other ways, there is

:42:47.:42:51.

exercise, education, these are great ways to boost cognition. We

:42:51.:42:54.

don't always have to use a drug. You don't have a problem with

:42:54.:42:59.

people taking lots of exercise and the rest of it? Absolutely not.

:42:59.:43:03.

problem is specifically with what chemical reactions may be taking

:43:03.:43:08.

place as a consequence of taking medication? There are two issues,

:43:08.:43:13.

one is the consequences, and the other is it a good thing in the

:43:13.:43:17.

wider sense of affecting what it is to be human. I don't think we have

:43:17.:43:22.

the faintist idea what enhancing a human being is. - faintest idea of

:43:22.:43:26.

what enhancing a human being is. I think convincing people they can

:43:26.:43:30.

live their normal lives better by taking this chemical is a step too

:43:30.:43:38.

far. Obviously we enhance people in all sorts of ways, we wear glasses

:43:38.:43:42.

and take exercises, and education is enhancement. There is a line in

:43:42.:43:48.

which you start saying, you will take a drug, all the time, in order

:43:48.:43:53.

to be a different superior being is very dubious, it seems to me. It is

:43:53.:43:58.

taking us away from the social norms with which we move.

:43:58.:44:01.

Presumably you would get circumstances in which employers

:44:01.:44:06.

would say, I will give you the job but take this pill all the time?

:44:06.:44:09.

can guarantee that human beings to be what they are, they would use

:44:09.:44:14.

the drugs to produce the perfect soldier. These would be used in

:44:14.:44:20.

that way. There is already owerings, frequently when I speak to students,

:44:20.:44:25.

they say they don't want to take the drugs and there is pressure on

:44:25.:44:31.

them to take T the question of coercion is there. That is like an

:44:31.:44:35.

argument for compulsory drunkenness, it is peer pressure? It is peer

:44:35.:44:42.

pressure, I know Nature did an on- line survey and people responded.

:44:42.:44:46.

These on-line surveys are worthless, it is not a controlled sample?

:44:46.:44:50.

is not. Why are you citing it? interesting feature is the issue of

:44:50.:44:53.

coercion, when asked if children should be given the drugs if they

:44:53.:44:56.

are healthy, most of the people said no. When asked if they would

:44:56.:45:00.

give the drug to their child if other children in the classroom

:45:00.:45:04.

were taking these drugs, they said, yes. The issue of coercion comes up

:45:04.:45:08.

again, it is only in trusting in that regard. Do you also believe

:45:08.:45:11.

the question that was cited in the film there, that Brian has already

:45:11.:45:16.

referred to, that there is a capacity for moral enhancement?

:45:16.:45:21.

think it is very difficult to discuss what people mean by moral

:45:21.:45:24.

enhancement. At least with cognition we have objective tests.

:45:24.:45:28.

We can say whether your memory as improved and by how much, we can

:45:28.:45:31.

talk about whether your planning has improved. This is much more

:45:31.:45:34.

difficult. It is nonsense, isn't it, moral enhancement is the capacity,

:45:34.:45:40.

surely, to make a judgment, based upon your natural capabilities?

:45:40.:45:44.

Well, neuroscientists would also talk, for instance, about cognitive

:45:44.:45:47.

control, being able to control your impulses and your behaviour. There

:45:47.:45:51.

are other forms that are perhaps more easy to measure. We have to

:45:51.:46:01.
:46:01.:46:20.

leave it there, unfortunately. We have a newed long enough on the

:46:20.:46:26.

bones of contention. Emily gets a go and is sharpening her knashers,

:46:26.:46:36.
:46:36.:46:55.

I think they are her's! Good night. Hello, another mild

:46:55.:46:59.

night out there. Later on we could see heavy rain arriving in the

:46:59.:47:04.

south west of England. Could make for miserable driving conditions in

:47:04.:47:07.

Somerset, Devon and Dorset, and South Wales. That pulse of rain

:47:07.:47:12.

goes northwards during the day, the afternoon could be damp through the

:47:12.:47:18.

west of the Pennine. In the south a grey start, brightening up across

:47:18.:47:23.

East Anglia and south-east England. Sunny spells coming through, and

:47:23.:47:28.

mild the South-West, wet, possibly very wet, by afternoon it should be

:47:28.:47:31.

dryer and maybe brighter. Today dull and damp in South Wales, to

:47:31.:47:34.

the west we should brighten up. Sunshine is possible here. By and

:47:34.:47:38.

large it is looking like a fine day in Northern Ireland. We will see

:47:38.:47:42.

some cloud, but we should get some sunshine as well. A dry and bright

:47:42.:47:45.

day again across much of North West Scotland. Elsewhere across Scotland

:47:46.:47:50.

it starts dry, but outbreaks of rain working their way in. As for

:47:50.:47:53.

Friday, we will see another band of rain moving in across Northern

:47:53.:47:58.

Ireland, slowly that will work into parts of South-West Scotland. For

:47:58.:48:02.

Edinburgh and Inverness, we could see sunshine. Cloud across the

:48:02.:48:08.

country on Friday. It is still mild, temperatures above average, 14-16

:48:08.:48:11.

degrees. A slice of sunshine during Friday, only ahead of the next band

:48:11.:48:15.

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