08/11/2011 Newsnight


08/11/2011

BBC Newsnight reveals details from a dossier of evidence showing the News of the World was engaged in covert surveillance on an industrial scale. Presented by Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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The News of the World employed private investigators to spy on

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some of the best-known people in the land. It continued its

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surveillance activities, right up to the point where it was shut down

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last summer. This former policeman tells

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Newsnight he numbered his targets by the dozen, the second in line to

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the throne for one. Prince William came out with Kate, followed by the

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royal protection vehicle, I followed the royal protection

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vehicle knowing full well they were in front. The head of features at

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the News of the World before it was closed and the publicist, Max

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Clifford, are here with us. The head of the UK Border Agency comes

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out from the shadows and quits, saying the Home Secretary has

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dropped him in it. What happened to the idea that ministers carried the

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can? The United Nations nuclear

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invigilator says Iran has been working on developing atomic

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weapons. This new report is being called a game changer by some, in

:01:02.:01:05.

the long-running battle of wits between Iran and the inspectors, I

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will have details. The technology industry's absurd

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new battleground, where fortunes are made, not by developing

:01:18.:01:28.
:01:28.:01:29.

The targets include the Royal Family, the Attorney General, film

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stars, footballers and politicians. The News of the World did not go

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gentle into that good night, right up to the moment when the Murdoch

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organisation pulled the plug on the paper, it was asking a right of

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investigator to spy for it. In an exclusive interview, that man, a

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former policeman, has told Newsnight he was given over 100

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tarts bit paper. We have the story.

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- targets by the paper. We have the story.

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Winter 2007, private investigator, Derek Webb is on the trail of an

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escort. She's being driven around central London in a taxi, visiting

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clients. He watches as her cab pulls up outside one of the city's

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most exclusive hotels. She was dressed immaculately, I think she

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was wearing a fur coat as well, she walked through the hotel, past

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reception into the lift. I followed her straight into the lift. I was

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carrying my bag, I didn't know what I needed, I got into the lift with

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her, she pressed the third floor, I pressed the fourth floor, she got

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out of the third floor, when she got out, just before the lift

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closed I put my foot around and saw what room she was going in, she

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knocked on a door and gained access to that room. You saw her going

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into that room? I saw her going into the room. Another success for

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former police officer, Derek Webb, who passed his intelligence on to

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News of the World, that were working on a sex scandal story. We

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have gained this dossier of evidence that shows astonishing

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insight into the workings of News of the World, it shows every job

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that Derek Webb did from 200-2008. There are more than 100 names here,

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actors, celebrities, politicians and the royals.

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The list contains many of the most high-profile people in Britain,

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including members of the Royal Family. Derek Webb needed all of

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his 15 years of experience as a surveillance officer to evade the

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attention of the Royal Protection Squad. They didn't rumble me, they

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had no idea. That proves my expertise in relation to it, that

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they were not aware that they were being followed. This happened on

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quite a few occasions. And I was able to realise then which royal

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protection officers were with which royal party. In March 2009, news

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nuets asked Deripaska - News of the World asked Derek Webb to conduct

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surveillance on the home of a girl who was, they thought, receiving

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visits from Prince Harry. His former girlfriend was under

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surveillance until 2007, Derek Webb said a News of the World made the

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request. He would ask me to go to Heathrow Airport and follow Chelsea

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Davey Prince Harry's girlfriend, and follow her where she was going,

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on a number of occasions she would be picked up. They would go to

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Clarence House or she would go to an address out in Oxfordshire. Then

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I would be monitoring them to see whether there was anything further

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developing from there. Many royal surveillance jobs were

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referred by Clive Goodman, News of the World's royal correspondent,

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convicted of phone hacking in 2007. Derek Webb said he was never told

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the source of any leads. I have never hacked a phone myself. I

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didn't know anything in relation to hacking. I realised that hacking

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was now a big business in relation to what was going back, but I never

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knew about it at the time. I had no knowledge of it. I was never told

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by one journalist, not one of them told me they had obtained it by

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phone hacking. Derek Webb says he was also dispatched to

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Gloucestershire to trail Prince William. Prince William came out

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with Kate, followed by the royal protection vehicle, I followed the

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royal protection vehicle, knowing full well they were in front, they

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ended up at Duchy Farm, the royal protection peeled off i followed

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them around, knowing full well they would go back there, and watched

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them go for lunch, et cetera. Pairt from the royal, there are

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plenty of sports - apart from the Royals, there are plenty of sports

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stars on the lists. This is Derek Webb's surveillance video of Gary

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Lineker. The News of the World was investigating his private life,

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although this surveillance didn't produce anything of interest for

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the paper. Gary Lineker's job went over many weeks. Numerous other

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newspapers were looking at Gary Lineker. And Gary Lineker is one of

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these people that I think is more surveillance conscious. He looks

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and I think he's aware of cars following him. Because I think he's

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been done over a number of years and people have looked at him.

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jobs, though, were more controversial than others. Derek

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Webb says he was asked to carry out surveillance on the former

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Attorney-General, Lord Goldsmith, in January 2005. I followed him

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around, mainly he was picked up by a chauffeur, and driven to his

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office near Buckingham Palace, or other locations. I would monitor

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his here, there and everywhere, to an extent, until the budget ran out,

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or they decided they wouldn't pursue the job any further. Did it

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ever surprise you that they wanted to effectively put Lord Goldsmith

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under surveillance? No. Nothing surprised me in relation to the

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amount of politicians and I was doing it as a business. I was

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solely doing it as a business to earn a living. Even former Home

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Secretary, Charles Clarke was a tart. At the time of the election

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2005, News of the World was putting huge resources into surveillance

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work on him. Derek Webb watched Mr Clarke for more than 20 days. He

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often used this cafe just below his election campaign office in central

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London as a base. On one occasion the police surrounded me, after I

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had been there three days, and interrogated me, what I was doing.

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Did Charles Clarke ever clock the fact you were watching him? I don't

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think he did. Not at all. The police were aware, the police, when

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they interrogated me, I showed them my private investigator's license,

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because I had one, and I said I was doing a domestic matter following a

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husband and wife, which they accepted and that was it. I didn't

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tell them I was watching Charles Clarke. The list of tarbts of

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surveillance is huge, Boris Johnson, Angelina Jolie, Simon Cowell koul,

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Paul McCartney, Ed Milliband, Heather Mills, the list goes on and

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on. Sometimes the families of targets were also watched. The News

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of the World wanted Derek Webb to follow the parents of Harry Potter

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star, Daniel Radcliffe, for unno inreasons. He trailed on foot the

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new - unknown reasons. He trailed on foot the new partner of energy

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secretary, Chris Huhne, as she walked around the capital. 95% of

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the jobs I was never rumbled at all. Even following for weeks on end.

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For Derek Webb, the commissions from News of the World kept rolling

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in. Because I kept getting results for them, they employed my services

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more and more. I was getting work from them and they were very

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satisfied with the work. Derek Webb says after eight years with News of

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the World, he was cut loose when the paper folded, with no

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compensation. He's taking an employment case against them.

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people were getting loyalty payments, and I was loyal to News

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of the World. I was loyal to News of the World and they failed to

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recognise this, and disregarding me as though a non-entity. But now

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he's decided to go public in such a spectacular way, with his exclusive

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Newsnight interview, it is the bigger ethical questions about the

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scale of the surveillance that will prove tough for the paper's

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publisher, which gives evidence to parliament on Thursday.

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With us now is Jules Stenson, head of features at the News of the

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World, before it closed its doors earlier this year, and the pub sis,

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Max Clifford. This is outrageous isn't it - publicist, Max Clifford.

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This is outrageous isn't it? we're getting it one side, Derek

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Webb, I have never spoken to him,'s a man with a grudge, with the

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company for not getting compensation. You are getting a

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slanted story, you are not hearing any context to these investigations.

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But these, clearly, according to his account, were fishing

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expeditions? I didn't hear him use that word. He didn't use that word,

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he was told to follow people and see what he could find, that is a

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fishing expedition? You haven't heard from the people commissioning

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them, clearly they are under police investigation, when I worked at the

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News of the World, we put the great and the good under ferocious

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scrutiny. We also put ourselves under ferocious scrutiny. One of

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the examples in that piece was Prince William. I can think of

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three big royal exclusives that the News of the World broke with huge

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public interest, two on Prince Harry, Derek melgsed tailing Prince

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William in Gloucestershire - mentioned tailing Prince William in

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Gloucestershire, there was investigations done on Prince Harry

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when he was smoking cannabis, that was a huge scandal at the time, and

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the Prince apologised for his behaviour. There was the example of

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Harry's racist language, there was the investigation into the Duchess

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of York. So, look, you need to see the context in which the

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information, the tips that the News of the World were trying to verify.

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Clifford, there is a public interest defence in this, isn't

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there. Nothing illegal is being done? I think it is really do the

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ends justify the means, of course, you know, what's in the public

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interest, generally speaking, comes down to us in the interest of the

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circulation of the newspaper. You can't justify it, generally

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speaking, on the ground of it being a real public interest. If this is

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going on because of someone who is threatening national security, the

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head of a paedophile ring, somebody like, that that is the only way to

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justify the activities, to my mind. Someone is presenting a public

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image in one way, a happy married man with children, and having

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affairs, isn't it justified to expose them? If that person is

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lecturing us about family values, the way certain politicians were,

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fair game, if it is someone who tries to keep their private life

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private, then I don't necessarily think we have the right to know all

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the ins and outs of their private life. Every situation has to be

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looked at in its own merits. say, this is all news to you, you

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never employed a private detective, you were not unaware that this sort

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of thing happened on the paper though? All media employ private

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detectives, that includes the BBC, Mark Thomson is on record in March

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saying the BBC has and currently employs private investigators. He

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justified it in public interest investigations. Investigative

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journalism is messy. The way that you, the first goal of a big

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investigation is actually to find the people that you are chasing,

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the crooks, theville lanes, they are not on the electoral -ville

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lanes, they are not on the electoral role. Sometimes you need

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to use a private investigator to find them using credit checks.

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use the words "crooks" and "ville lins", the list of people there was

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not any of those? I go back to the original point that we don't know,

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we haven't heard from the people who commissioned Derek Webb, we

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have just the slanted view of Derek Webb who has a clear grievance

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against the paper. I think the only answer is the people who

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commissioned them should be asked to explain and justify what you

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were looking for and trying to get and see does the argument stand up

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for scrutiny. As nothing illegal was done by your own admission,

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:14:21.:14:24.

what's the problem? Well I think that the problem is, when you look

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at what happened to the Dowlers and that, you have to have a free press

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in a democracy, but you have to find a medium. Phone hacking is

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illegal, simply following someone around isn't? It depends on what

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your intention is. It depends on what you are intending to do.

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seem to be questioning the fact this is your lead story, Jeremy.

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you are following children, as was suggested on the programme last

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night, that the children of Charlotte Harris the lawyer, how

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can you possibly justify that. do you justify it I don't think you

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k Max is referring to Mark Lewis, the lawyer whose children and ex-

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wife was targeted. Charlotte says the same thing, her children were

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two and four. Jo that is deplorable, I'm not here to justify that.

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was your paper? As I say, I wasn't involved in it and I didn't know

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anything about it. Things changed at the paper, did they? After.

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was apartheid of eight years, this man was employed. - this was a

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period of eight years, this man was employed? He was employed on the

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news desk, I worked on features. You are surprised by it?

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extremely surprised by Derek Webb's actions. The journalism we did was

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ferociously scrutinised at all times. I can give you examples of

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surveillance we did on features, we went into the parliament in

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Brussels and filmed the MPs, as they signed their expenses sheets.

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We used an MEP fitted up an MEP to film them while they were in the

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room signing the forms because we knew they would lie if we didn't.

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There is another side to it, if you are going to print stories you

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would do everything within your power to make them accurate?

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have to prove them as well. those circumstances you need to

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employ private detectives? Yes, it depends on the circumstances. That

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is what I said, I think there are times when it can be justified, but

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the list of people I have seen, I would find it incredibly difficult

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to justify. What were they looking at Simon Cowell, one of my clients,

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for. Other than stories that at this time vait the readers, where

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is the national - titivate the readers, you have to say how does

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it justify the actions. Every situation on its own merits. Peter

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Crouch, the footballer, plays for England, we had a tip he was up to

:16:51.:16:56.

no good in Madrid, seeing prostitutes. Has this already been

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published? It has already been published and not disputed by

:16:59.:17:04.

Crouch, we did follow him, to get the proof, we knew if we didn't he

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would be straight on the line to the lawyers. We subsequently

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exposed him for using a traffic prostitute.

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The head of the UK borders agency said tonight he had been

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constructively dismissed by comments from the Home Secretary,

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which blamed him for the shambles at Britain's borders this summer.

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Clearly furious he said she disregarded his right to reply, for

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the sake of political convience. Yet the Prime Minister, who also

:17:30.:17:34.

blamed him, says the Home Secretary has his complete confidence. Time

:17:34.:17:38.

was when the idea of ministerial accountability, meant that when

:17:38.:17:47.

something went wrong, the politician carried the can. The

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fight between ministers and officials over just who authorised

:17:51.:17:56.

a relaxation of border controls is getting angler by the hour. Tonight

:17:56.:18:01.

an unpress - angrier by the hour. Tonight an unprecedented slapdown

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for the Home Secretary by the man who has been handed the can but has

:18:04.:18:10.

declined to carry it. Brodie Clark, on the left, was, until last week,

:18:10.:18:13.

head of the UK Border Force, suspended, says the Home Secretary,

:18:13.:18:18.

for overstepping her intructions. This is what she told the Home

:18:18.:18:22.

Affairs Select Committee just this morning. I was not aware that the

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extension of the relaxation of checks had taken place. I was not

:18:26.:18:30.

aware, as I set out in my initial statement, a number of relaxations

:18:30.:18:35.

were put in place by officials. Brodie Clark, as I understand it,

:18:35.:18:41.

has admitted to the chief executive of UK BA, that he did go beyond

:18:41.:18:43.

ministerial responsibility, I was not aware this had been done.

:18:44.:18:47.

Prime Minister, too, told a Commons committee today that the man he

:18:47.:18:51.

said was responsible for this unacceptable activity, had been

:18:51.:18:55.

suspended. It is very clear to me that the Home Secretary did

:18:55.:18:59.

undertake a pilot scheme, and a pilot scheme, in some ways that was

:18:59.:19:03.

successful, in terms of the number of arrests up by 10%. It is also

:19:03.:19:08.

clear that there was activity going on, by the UK BA, that is not

:19:08.:19:12.

acceptable, that was uncovered by the inspector, it has been stopped,

:19:12.:19:15.

the person responsible has been suspended, clearly this is not

:19:15.:19:20.

acceptable and it is not acceptable it went on for so long. Tonight the

:19:20.:19:25.

head of UK Border Force has quit, and what's more, he says he intend

:19:25.:19:29.

to pursue a claim for constructive dismissal.

:19:29.:19:39.
:19:39.:19:56.

Mr Clarke goes on to completely contradict what the Home Secretary

:19:56.:20:00.

and the Prime Minister have said about the relaxation of controls,

:20:00.:20:10.
:20:10.:20:33.

that it was without ministerial Immigration has always been a

:20:33.:20:37.

contentious political issue. Charles Clarke had to resign as

:20:37.:20:41.

Home Secretary after it was revealed that 1,000 foreign

:20:41.:20:45.

prisoners weren't even considered for deportation. He says, though,

:20:45.:20:48.

it is ministers who have to take responsibility. I have always

:20:48.:20:51.

thought it was cowardly, really, just to say we will pick the

:20:51.:20:55.

scapegoat of an official and deal with it like that. Maybe I made a

:20:55.:20:58.

mistake, some of my colleagues said I should have sacked somebody and

:20:58.:21:02.

saved my own skin on that basis. Well, I don't think that's a good

:21:02.:21:06.

way to conduct politics. Some suggest that Theresa May has given

:21:06.:21:15.

an inconsistent account of her role She claimed that this was purely an

:21:15.:21:17.

operational decision. Which have why it wasn't reported to

:21:17.:21:21.

parliament. The way in which agencies are set up, the ministers

:21:21.:21:26.

are supposed to leave operational decisions to the management of the

:21:26.:21:29.

agencies. Ministers are supposed to just set the strategic direction,

:21:29.:21:32.

and allocate the resources to the agencies, and leave the agencies to

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get on with the job. So she seems to be wanting to have her cake and

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eat it, to claim it is an operational decision which she made,

:21:40.:21:42.

which she probably shouldn't have made, that was the reason why she

:21:42.:21:47.

didn't report it to parliament. Before any claim for unfair

:21:47.:21:51.

dismissal could be heard, Brodie Clark will be giving evidence

:21:51.:21:54.

before parliament. The more he is able to defend himself there, the

:21:55.:21:58.

more it will make things difficult for the Home Secretary.

:21:58.:22:01.

We did ask the Home Office for an interview, but they didn't want to

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answer our questions, we are joined by Jonathan Baume, head of the

:22:06.:22:12.

union for top civil servants, the First Division Association by Keith

:22:12.:22:15.

Vaz, chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee. How is he feeling

:22:15.:22:19.

tonight? He's very bruised, battered, this is a gruelling

:22:19.:22:24.

experience for someone to be in the public glaer, he's very robust. He

:22:24.:22:27.

has issued a gaiplt this evening after advice from lawyers, he will

:22:27.:22:31.

be - a statement this evening, after advice from lawyers, and will

:22:32.:22:35.

issue a statement next week. He is angry about the fact that issues

:22:35.:22:39.

were raised, he was willing to answer those internally, instead

:22:39.:22:45.

was suspended, and the Home Secretary spent two days basically

:22:45.:22:48.

damming him without ever giving a civil servant the opportunity to

:22:48.:22:52.

present their case, and in the full knowledge as a civil servant he

:22:52.:22:56.

wasn't able to speak out publicly to defend himself. She didn't speak

:22:56.:23:00.

to him before saying he was carrying the can and it was his

:23:00.:23:04.

responsibility? I don't go into detail on the process over the last

:23:04.:23:08.

few days. He would be willing to give evidence before Mr Vaz's

:23:08.:23:11.

committee next week. We are clear that whatever the fine print at the

:23:11.:23:15.

end of last week, every civil servant has the right to proper

:23:15.:23:20.

process, it is not the role of mains ter to publicly attack a

:23:20.:23:26.

civil - a minister to publicly attack a civil servant. He accuses

:23:26.:23:30.

the Theresa May of misrepresenting what happened. His own boss says

:23:30.:23:34.

Brodie Clark admitted to me on the 2nd of November, that on a number

:23:34.:23:37.

of occasions this year he authorised his staff to go further

:23:37.:23:44.

than ministerial instruction?M don't want to go into the fine

:23:44.:23:47.

print. That is what the hoiblgt says he did? He's happen - Home

:23:47.:23:52.

Secretary says he did?'S Happy to answer all these questions before

:23:52.:23:55.

the Home Affairs Select Committee next week. Here is his own boss

:23:55.:24:00.

agreeing with the Home Secretary? Next week we will get the full

:24:00.:24:04.

facts, not partial pictures. Home Secretary testified to you

:24:04.:24:09.

today, were you surprised when she, as it were, dobed in her officials?

:24:09.:24:17.

I wasn't surprised. The point of ministers giving evidence to the

:24:17.:24:19.

Home Affairs Select Committee is clear and transparent evidence. She

:24:19.:24:23.

was very clear, she was responsible for the pilot, which she says was a

:24:23.:24:28.

success, in her words, Mr Clarke took that pilot forward, in an

:24:28.:24:31.

unauthorised way. She didn't know about it, she had not informed

:24:31.:24:34.

cabinet, she had not informed parliament, and she saw that there

:24:34.:24:38.

was no reason to do so. And you believed her? That's the evidence

:24:38.:24:43.

that we had, of course. If the Home Secretary comes before a select

:24:43.:24:46.

committee, and gives us a circumstance and set of facts we

:24:47.:24:50.

have to accept it. What has happened since then, as you know,

:24:50.:24:54.

is Mr Clarke has issued his statement, which is a direct

:24:54.:24:57.

contradiction to what the Home Office, Home Secretary said to the

:24:57.:25:00.

select committee. And that is why I'm very grateful to him for

:25:00.:25:04.

agreeing to come in to give evidence to us, and if necessary,

:25:04.:25:08.

if we need to clarify any of these points with her, we will ask her to

:25:08.:25:13.

clarify them, she was very clear. You will call Brodie Clark to

:25:13.:25:16.

testify before you? He has already agreed to come. During the middle

:25:16.:25:20.

of the evidence session, I told the Home Secretary that the select

:25:20.:25:23.

committee had decided to have Clark in, and he had agreed to come, he

:25:23.:25:28.

will come before us on Tuesday, and we will put to him all these facts

:25:28.:25:31.

and indeed, I will be writing to the Home Secretary tomorrow, with a

:25:31.:25:35.

number of additional questions, which we wish to put to her. I

:25:35.:25:38.

think, Jeremy, I know this is puzzling, it is puzzling for me as

:25:38.:25:43.

well, that all this happens in the last six days, but we do need to

:25:43.:25:48.

get to the bottom of the facts first, before we rush to judgment.

:25:48.:25:56.

Can we just clarify Mr Clarke's position, has he resigned? He has

:25:56.:25:59.

left the Home Office. We sent a letter of notice tonight to that

:25:59.:26:04.

effect. He is now claiming unfair dismissal. In legal terms he has

:26:04.:26:12.

not resigned, in popular patrol lance, he has. He's paid by the

:26:12.:26:18.

taxpayer? No, he's not technical resigned, but generally he has.

:26:18.:26:22.

is being paid? After tonight he's not being paid. Who is he working

:26:22.:26:27.

for? Nobody. He has not resigned? In a legal sense he hasn't resigned

:26:27.:26:32.

because he's claiming constructive dismissal. In popular language he

:26:32.:26:35.

has resigned. He will then take the Home Secretary, or the Home Office,

:26:35.:26:43.

or whoever, to an industrial tribunal? We - Yes, we's working

:26:44.:26:48.

with the FDA lawyers and pursuing that through the courts. For a

:26:48.:26:52.

political damage report I'm joined Byfleet treat's Andrew Porter of

:26:52.:26:55.

the Telegraph, and Steve Richards from the Independent. How serious

:26:55.:27:00.

is this, do you think? I think it has taken a very serious turn this

:27:00.:27:05.

evening, for May. There is no doubt about that. This is now dragging on

:27:05.:27:08.

for three or four days, I think next week, who would have thought

:27:09.:27:12.

it, but James Murdoch before a select committee is probably going

:27:12.:27:15.

to be upstaged when Brodie Clark appears. People will be homing in

:27:15.:27:18.

on what he's going to saying, someone is wrong here, and someone

:27:18.:27:25.

is probably going to have to pay a fairly big price. How serious do

:27:25.:27:32.

you think it is? As Keith Vaz said, when May May came to the committee

:27:32.:27:36.

- May came to the committee, she was very clear about her version of

:27:36.:27:41.

events, they were directly contradicted by a senior civil

:27:41.:27:45.

servant. I don't believe she's cupable absolutely, I don't believe

:27:45.:27:49.

any longer it is fair to say all ministers are culpable for anything

:27:49.:27:52.

that goes wrong. I have huge respect for Jonathan, who

:27:53.:27:56.

represents senior civil servants. But when he says that it's not for

:27:56.:28:02.

a minister to lay a finger on a senior civil servant. Why not? If

:28:02.:28:07.

that person has committed operational errors. Has she handled

:28:07.:28:11.

it as well as she could have handled it? She was pretty straight

:28:11.:28:17.

and direct. If she's felling the truth, at this telling the truth,

:28:17.:28:22.

we will have to wait and see. telling the truth, we will have to

:28:22.:28:27.

wait and see? I don't think she has handled it well, over the weekend

:28:27.:28:33.

we heard nothing. You could have aggressive briefing from Theresa

:28:33.:28:36.

May's people, all the language, in the end it was desperately trying

:28:37.:28:41.

to put it away from her. With the papers, the Mail and our paper

:28:41.:28:44.

splashing on t it is a cheap shot, blaming your official. Steve is

:28:45.:28:49.

right to a point, you can't be accountable for every official, but

:28:49.:28:54.

if your first refuge is to blame your official, it looks chief.

:28:54.:29:03.

is only chief if she's the one at error. - Cheap. It is only cheap if

:29:03.:29:08.

she's the one at error. Operationally the pilot scheme was

:29:08.:29:11.

extended without her knowing. If that is the case, I don't blame her

:29:11.:29:14.

for saying she won't resign and others have to answer for this.

:29:14.:29:18.

There is a wider issue here about the automatic assumption. Cabinet

:29:18.:29:22.

ministers last on average six minutes in various jobs. Civil

:29:22.:29:27.

servants have got much longer security of tenure, and are quite

:29:27.:29:30.

powerful. It is good that he's coming next week to the select

:29:31.:29:35.

committee and to be accountable and put his case. There should be much

:29:35.:29:39.

more of it. I fear, that there can be complacency in the Civil Service

:29:39.:29:43.

because of this assumption, that we always blame the ministers. I think

:29:43.:29:45.

it is just the curse of the Home Office, isn't it. This is a

:29:45.:29:48.

department that is even responsible for things like falling satellites

:29:48.:29:53.

and things. Anything could happen? Everyone thought when Reid said it

:29:53.:29:57.

wasn't fit for purpose, and they took justice away from it, all the

:29:57.:30:00.

things like Charles Clarke with prisoners going missing, they

:30:00.:30:04.

thought that would take the sting out of it, it has to some extent.

:30:04.:30:09.

May for 18 months has been fairly risk-free, now you are right, it is

:30:09.:30:12.

coming back. She is in a strong position. She, personally, is

:30:13.:30:17.

important to Cameron? She is, this is why I think ultimately she will

:30:17.:30:21.

survive. Cameron, for two reasons, I think he rates her. He does see

:30:21.:30:25.

her, up until now a safe pair of hands. She's one of the few women

:30:25.:30:29.

in the cabinet. We know the issues David Cameron has about women in

:30:29.:30:34.

his Government. I think he cannot afford to lose another cabinet

:30:34.:30:41.

minister so soon after Liam Fox. himself has endorsed her position.

:30:41.:30:44.

He blamed Brodie Clark, saying the person responsible has been

:30:44.:30:48.

suspended? Over the past few days David Cameron has a lot of question

:30:48.:30:53.

marks, he didn't know. One of the problems with Theresa May, when you

:30:53.:30:56.

speak to cabinet ministers and ministers, she keeps things too

:30:56.:31:01.

close, if she allowed a few more people, even in her own department

:31:01.:31:07.

what was going orpbgs she could have survived it better. She will

:31:08.:31:12.

survive. What will emerge from this is the messy lines of

:31:12.:31:14.

accountability between ministers, civil servants, agencies, those who

:31:14.:31:20.

deliver. I bit the blur is over what strategic - I bet the blur is

:31:20.:31:23.

over what strategic guidance means from ministers and operational

:31:23.:31:26.

responsibility from people like Brodie Clark. Somewhere in there

:31:26.:31:33.

the messy contra directions lie. The sooner - contradictions lie.

:31:33.:31:37.

The sooner we get over it the better for Britain. This question

:31:37.:31:40.

of the messy lines of accountability that Steve Richards

:31:40.:31:44.

refers to there, in this new arrangement where you have agencies,

:31:44.:31:49.

old fashioned civil servants, old fashioned ministers, is it

:31:49.:31:52.

complicated? It is, I remember going back almost 20 years to the

:31:52.:31:57.

Mark Lewis affair, which you will remember, Jeremy. Many of the same

:31:57.:32:02.

issues were there being discussed. Steve, I'm not arguing that civil

:32:02.:32:05.

servants are not accountable, nor am I arguing that the Home

:32:05.:32:08.

Secretary hasn't got the right to suspend somebody. But having done

:32:08.:32:13.

that, there has to be a proper process, what is unacceptable is

:32:13.:32:16.

for the Home Secretary to act as judge and jury, and make lots of

:32:16.:32:19.

public statements before a civil servant has had a chance to put

:32:19.:32:27.

their side of the story, and to have their reputation completely

:32:27.:32:30.

trashed. The Islamic Republic of Iran is trying to learn how to

:32:30.:32:34.

develop nuclear weapons. They have denied it for years and will

:32:34.:32:38.

continue to deny until they are blue in the face. But the judgment

:32:38.:32:40.

of the International Atomic Agency, formally made public tomorrow,

:32:40.:32:47.

moves the international confrontation to a new level.

:32:47.:32:52.

Tonight, the international Atomic Energy Authority circulated its

:32:52.:32:56.

latest report in Vienna, within minutes quotes were leaking out,

:32:56.:33:00.

within hours the entire thing was on the Internet. According to the

:33:00.:33:05.

report, the agency has serious concerns regarding possibly

:33:05.:33:07.

military dimensions to Iran's nuclear programme.

:33:07.:33:12.

It says that some of Iran's research projects may indeed have

:33:12.:33:22.
:33:22.:33:25.

civil applications, but the IAEA's information shows.. It suggests

:33:25.:33:28.

before 2003, when some intelligence reports suggests the programme was

:33:28.:33:38.
:33:38.:33:39.

stopped, there was evidence of a Much of tonight's report is the

:33:39.:33:42.

revelation of detailed work that the agency has known about for

:33:42.:33:48.

years, but kept to itself. Iran's ambassador to the IAEA tonight

:33:48.:33:54.

called the report unbalanced and unprofessional and politically

:33:54.:33:58.

motivated. Son-in-law of the sights it mentions have - sites it

:33:58.:34:07.

mentions have already been looked at. And there are foreign nuclear

:34:07.:34:10.

scientists helping Iran build a nuclear weapon. Russia's response

:34:10.:34:14.

to the leak was it contained little knew. Many in the east believed

:34:14.:34:19.

Israel Mason strike, while that country's recent statements believe

:34:19.:34:23.

all options are under considerations. We strongly believe

:34:23.:34:27.

that sanctions are effective, or could be effective, if they are

:34:27.:34:31.

little and paralysing enough that diplomacy could work, if enough

:34:31.:34:35.

unity could be synchronised between the major players. No option should

:34:35.:34:41.

be removed from the table. And we keep saying it, for at least four

:34:41.:34:45.

years. With the latest IAEA report, comes

:34:45.:34:50.

a new demand for access and co- operation.

:34:50.:34:53.

Something the UN says has been absent from Iran's side, on

:34:53.:35:01.

suspected weapon design matters, for the past three years.

:35:01.:35:06.

What is this nuclear programme amounting to? Well, the UN says

:35:07.:35:10.

that what it has announced tonight is qualitatively different. We have

:35:10.:35:16.

got used over the years to the rows about the facilities. Some of of

:35:16.:35:20.

the names are familiar to people. The Iranians saying it is a civil

:35:20.:35:25.

programme and get off our backs. Now what the UN body is doing is

:35:25.:35:27.

being quite specific about a nuclear weapons design programme

:35:27.:35:35.

which, it says was going on in Iran. This causes attention to go to

:35:35.:35:40.

sites we are not so used to. Including this one, we can see it

:35:40.:35:45.

in the satellite imagery. Here there is a large armments factory,

:35:45.:35:51.

there is a testing area, attention has gone to this area down south

:35:51.:35:56.

for the resting area. This was built up some time ago. If we zoom

:35:56.:36:00.

in. We can see what attracted their interest.

:36:01.:36:07.

These circular objects, surrounded by bunkers, are placed where the

:36:07.:36:10.

inspectors believe the high explosive components of nuclear

:36:10.:36:14.

warhead designs may have been tested. They are alleging in the

:36:14.:36:18.

report that all sorts of activities have been going on, connected with

:36:18.:36:23.

nuclear weapons design, the testing of special circuitry, and

:36:23.:36:27.

detonators of reventry vehicles for ballistic missiles, all of which

:36:27.:36:31.

designed to put a package of that material that they have been

:36:31.:36:35.

talking about up-to-date, into a weaponised form. A key aspect of

:36:35.:36:41.

what they are saying is that a lot of what they allege was going on

:36:41.:36:47.

prior to the late 2003 decision to dismantle a large centrally

:36:47.:36:50.

directed nuclear weapons programme. What does it say about what's

:36:50.:36:56.

current? They say some aspects of the nuclear warhead's design may

:36:56.:37:00.

continue. They update us on other aspects of the programme. For

:37:00.:37:04.

example, the tunnel facility near the religious city, which was

:37:04.:37:08.

announced a couple of years ago with great fanfare by western

:37:08.:37:12.

leaders. They say where as that was empty when they looked at it, there

:37:12.:37:17.

are centre refugees awaiting powering up. Going back to this

:37:17.:37:19.

satellite image, this is the facility, which, over the years,

:37:19.:37:25.

they have inspected most, and talked about most. They have

:37:25.:37:31.

expressed concerns about them in the past. We know there there are

:37:31.:37:39.

buried turbine halls with the cascades of centre refugees, in

:37:39.:37:45.

this area, two - centre refugees in this area they have been buried to

:37:45.:37:49.

safeguard them from air attack. They have been whirring away for

:37:49.:37:52.

years. The main thing about the report is five tonnes of uranium

:37:52.:37:57.

has been enriched through this process, not to weapons grade. But

:37:57.:38:01.

the experts reckon if the process of enrichment was repeated to

:38:01.:38:04.

brifpbg it to that grade, that would - bring it to that grade,

:38:04.:38:09.

that would amount to two to three bombs worth. Does it increase the

:38:09.:38:14.

danger of an Israeli attack? does, it gives a political signal

:38:14.:38:20.

that this UN body creates that nuclear weapon design work has

:38:20.:38:24.

going on in Iran. There have been so many differing signals from the

:38:24.:38:28.

Israelis, it is not clear what their intentions are. The danger

:38:28.:38:33.

now is that tensions will rise, due to misconception or

:38:33.:38:37.

miscommunication. Fancy a slice of toast? Be careful,

:38:37.:38:41.

if you heat the bread to a particular temperature, for between

:38:41.:38:51.
:38:51.:38:51.

three and 90 second, you may be impingeing on US patent 0860836,

:38:51.:38:56.

ort bread refreshing method. That is how absurdly the American patent

:38:56.:39:03.

company is being used, as companies big and small sue and counter sue

:39:03.:39:06.

over international property rights. Some companies do nothing but own

:39:07.:39:15.

patents, the man who invented the Internet doesn't like it at all.

:39:16.:39:20.

London's Design Museum, home to lots of innovative products turning

:39:20.:39:26.

into money spinners for their inventors, that is, unless they

:39:26.:39:29.

make sure they are protected from imitateors.

:39:29.:39:33.

Had a brilliant idea? Well you better get a patent so nobody else

:39:33.:39:37.

can copy it before you have had a chance to make some money. Now

:39:37.:39:41.

inventors of ideas, big and small, are beginning to worry that the

:39:41.:39:47.

whole patent system is falling into disrepute. Their concern is it is

:39:47.:39:57.
:39:57.:39:58.

now hindering innovation than hoping it. How much? This is one

:39:59.:40:05.

clever idea, a smart phone ap that teaches you Chinese. It is the a

:40:05.:40:13.

product of David Heart's industry, a sideline in generating apps. It

:40:13.:40:19.

is creating a bit of interest, but that could be dwarfed by a legal

:40:20.:40:26.

bin. The problems began when a bulky but baffling document arrived

:40:26.:40:33.

in the London office. A letter from a company saying we are infringing

:40:33.:40:40.

one of their patents. It shows a telephone talking to a fax reason,

:40:40.:40:47.

and it is dated December 7th 199. Any idea how this applies to you?

:40:47.:40:52.

It is very, very hard to see. here is another bit a memory within

:40:52.:40:57.

each of the units of the commodity capable of storing results with the

:40:57.:41:02.

two-way location to the two commodities in the same location.

:41:02.:41:05.

Each commodity capable of carrying results to each of the units of the

:41:05.:41:09.

commodity to a central location, is that clear? I have absolutely no

:41:09.:41:13.

idea what it means. It says you have done it here, storing results

:41:13.:41:19.

of the two-way interaction to the central location? I'm none the

:41:19.:41:26.

wiser, unfortunately. They are demapbgd licensing fees, and David

:41:26.:41:29.

Hart is talking to lawyer before deciding how to respond, and

:41:29.:41:33.

considering what means for his business. It is another risk to

:41:33.:41:37.

consider. When you do anything of the R & D nature, the risk is it

:41:37.:41:41.

won't work and nobody will want to buy it, it is another risk. This is

:41:41.:41:45.

something we have to consider that we hadn't talked about.

:41:45.:41:51.

Similar documents have been sent to all sorts of software develop e

:41:51.:42:00.

including the makers of angry birds and the Sims. What this is? It is a

:42:00.:42:04.

company based in Texas with a simple website, there is a quote

:42:04.:42:08.

from Edison about his inventions coming not by accident but work.

:42:08.:42:13.

All of this work seems to be about demanding fees from companies it

:42:13.:42:17.

accuses of using its technologies. It is what some of its critics

:42:17.:42:23.

would call a patent troll. I have e-mailed the chief executive,

:42:23.:42:28.

Chris Smalling, a couple of times, - Mark Small, to discuss these

:42:28.:42:33.

issues, he has respectfully declined, saying the company is

:42:33.:42:37.

applying resources to licensing discussions. Here is man with a big

:42:37.:42:42.

idea, Cerf is one of the founding fathers of the - Vint Cerf is one

:42:42.:42:48.

of the founding fathers of the certificate net. He believes these

:42:48.:42:53.

patents will show the system is going wrong. Patents were intended

:42:53.:42:57.

to give a person to protect his interests and give him the right

:42:57.:43:02.

that his idea has been infringed on other. What has happened is in

:43:02.:43:08.

parts of the patent community is we see people acquiring the right to

:43:08.:43:13.

patent, but without using them except for suing for infringement.

:43:13.:43:17.

It seems the inventor you met has been confronted with that practice.

:43:17.:43:20.

There is a business to be made, people will find a way to make a

:43:20.:43:26.

dis. That is what has happened with patents. Is the system helping for

:43:27.:43:31.

hindering innovation if used in that way? Particularly in the sense

:43:31.:43:36.

of software patterns I see it as hinders in a very dramatic way.

:43:36.:43:41.

is not just the small players who are affected, suddenly the

:43:41.:43:45.

technology industry has become a battleground, where patents are

:43:45.:43:51.

important, weapons and efrb seals to be suing everybody else. Apple

:43:51.:44:01.
:44:01.:44:03.

is suing Samsung, Samsung is suing apple. Htc is suing ap all, and all

:44:03.:44:12.

sorts of other programmes. Google has been raising to acquire

:44:12.:44:16.

its own patents, what is your reaction to that? It has been

:44:16.:44:20.

forced on us by the realities of the patent market place, I regret

:44:20.:44:23.

so much money has to be spent on that, that should have been spent

:44:23.:44:28.

on inventing new ideas. It is all good business for the intellectual

:44:28.:44:31.

property lawyers. But don't try to tell them that the patent system is

:44:31.:44:36.

now a barrier to innovation. If you compare the phone in your pocket

:44:36.:44:43.

with the mobile phone had you five years ago, the progress that has

:44:43.:44:48.

been made in those years self- evident. And it cannot support a

:44:48.:44:52.

suggestion that the patent system is stifleing innovation. But if

:44:53.:44:55.

British software developers came to you with this underthreat from the

:44:55.:45:02.

UK, it would be pretty extensive, I presume for them to deal with that?

:45:03.:45:07.

Major mat tent litigation is expensive. We have systems over

:45:07.:45:14.

here, we have a patent county court set up to handle small cases by

:45:14.:45:21.

small to medium sized enterprises. It has a damage limit of �500,000.

:45:21.:45:28.

Mass mum �500,000, a lot for a small company? We need a patent

:45:28.:45:31.

system, I appreciate that sometimes it can hurt, but to say that you

:45:31.:45:34.

are small is not a defence to a valid claim that you have infringed

:45:34.:45:44.

the patent. Technology is indeed a passing -

:45:44.:45:48.

advancing so rapidly that even recent inventions are now museum

:45:48.:45:53.

pieces. But its ever more money and energy is spent on fighting the

:45:53.:46:01.

patent wars, who will come up with the next big thing.

:46:01.:46:06.

Tomorrow morning's front pages, the Mail leads with the Border Force's

:46:06.:46:09.

spat with the Home Secretary, same story on the front page of the

:46:09.:46:19.
:46:19.:46:19.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 47 seconds

:46:19.:47:06.

Good evening. A cloudy, damp and misty nitrogen tonight. Temperature

:47:06.:47:12.

- misty night again tonight. You can see a few glimmers of sunshine,

:47:13.:47:17.

much of northern England will hold on to the cloud. Maybe the moderate

:47:17.:47:22.

bursts across the Pennines, misty here. Across to the Midlands, East

:47:22.:47:26.

Anglia and the south. There is a chance after the dismal start

:47:26.:47:33.

things might cheer up leaving some breaks in the cloud. In the south

:47:33.:47:37.

west you will hold on to generally cloudy conditions. Heavier pulses

:47:37.:47:40.

of rain on and off true the day. Once it eases during the afternoon

:47:40.:47:46.

at times urbg might see a bit of bright - you might see a bit of

:47:46.:47:50.

brightness. Much of the day predominantly grey and damp. Damp

:47:50.:47:54.

in eastern Scotland, the far north, even with a bit more cloud, should

:47:55.:47:58.

stay reasonably bright. Into Thursday, the difference, well, it

:47:58.:48:01.

is not hugely discernable, if anything, the rain across some

:48:01.:48:05.

parts of Scotland, western England and Wales could be that little bit

:48:05.:48:09.

heavier at times, and a bit more persistent, either side of it there

:48:09.:48:11.

will be sunshine around. Western parts of Northern Ireland,

:48:11.:48:16.

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