24/11/2011 Newsnight


24/11/2011

A look at the jobs market crunch, as net migration peaks and youth unemployment surges. And why is the world's best-paid footballer in possibly the most dangerous place in Europe?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, record figures out today show the Government is way off

:00:09.:00:19.
:00:19.:00:19.

target on immigration. Is the Polish master carpenter and others

:00:19.:00:22.

pouring our economy. There are many more in work from Eastern Europe

:00:22.:00:27.

than a year ago. They do more hours than most because they want to.

:00:27.:00:33.

Because they want to earn the money. That's maybe where we fall down as

:00:33.:00:36.

a nation. Is there a connection between them and record figures

:00:36.:00:39.

today showing a million young people in England unemployed and

:00:39.:00:43.

not in any form of education. I will be asking the Government why

:00:43.:00:49.

they are off track. For those in work in the public sector, is next

:00:49.:00:52.

week's strike in defence of pensions a negotiating master

:00:52.:00:56.

stroke or disastrously mistimed. think it is irresponsible, I think

:00:56.:01:01.

it is wrong, and people should know who to blame. A strike leader and a

:01:01.:01:06.

Tory backbencher go head-to-head. It boasts the world's highest-paid

:01:06.:01:10.

footballer, but it is now the most dangerous place in Europe. We go to

:01:10.:01:15.

deepest Dagestan in search of the oligarch, using football as a

:01:15.:01:25.
:01:25.:01:27.

Good evening. Tens of thousands a year, not hundreds of thousands a

:01:27.:01:30.

year. That was the promise on immigration in the Conservative

:01:30.:01:35.

manifesto last year. But the annual figure for 2010 is higher than ever.

:01:35.:01:38.

Tonight, we will debate whether this is a good thing or a bad thing,

:01:38.:01:42.

and whether it directly effects unemployment. Today we also learn

:01:42.:01:46.

the number of young people not in employment, education or training

:01:46.:01:52.

was at record level. A British manufacturing company

:01:52.:01:58.

bucking the trend. For this steel fabricator in south London,

:01:58.:02:01.

contracts continue to roll in, eventhough competition and profit

:02:01.:02:06.

margins are tight. We spent the afternoon at London Engineering,

:02:06.:02:09.

trying to find out how Government policy on immigration and

:02:09.:02:13.

employment plays out on the ground. Commercial manager, Richard Mulhall,

:02:13.:02:17.

showed us around. In that parbt of the works, the new part, we have

:02:17.:02:22.

the biggest guillotines and press makes in London. We cut sheet and

:02:22.:02:26.

plate and fold it and bend it. sort of jobs have you got on, what

:02:26.:02:32.

sort of clients? We worked for the Olympic stadium, the Emirates

:02:32.:02:39.

stadium, the 02. In this Crucible part of the British economy we

:02:39.:02:45.

found Polish Marcin Pawlowski, learning the petal makers trade.

:02:45.:02:51.

left as an electrician and I had to learn about it. You had to learn

:02:51.:02:55.

about steel fabrication? Everything. I learned how to read the drawings

:02:55.:02:59.

and how to do the drawings back in Poland. But apart from that,

:02:59.:03:03.

everything was brand new for me. While employment rates for UK

:03:03.:03:08.

nationals stands at 71%, the figure for those arriving here from the

:03:08.:03:11.

eight new EU accession group of countries, in Eastern Europe, is

:03:11.:03:21.

82%. So are new immigrants like this

:03:21.:03:24.

more employable, motivated or both. It is hard work, but you have to

:03:24.:03:27.

get up in the morning, go out there and keep searching all the time. I

:03:27.:03:31.

just walked into that company, through the door, and I asked the

:03:31.:03:35.

question, is there any clans I could have a job in this -- chance

:03:35.:03:38.

I could have a job in this place. The boss said we will see what

:03:38.:03:43.

happened, and he just ended up calling me about three weeks later,

:03:43.:03:47.

you know. So that's how it was. Really strange, but that is how it

:03:47.:03:50.

was. It may not be the most glamorous of

:03:50.:03:53.

work, but this south London engineering firm has a real niche

:03:53.:03:57.

in the market, it is a specialist in designing and building bespoke

:03:57.:04:02.

steel projects. It has a full order book. Why don't more British people

:04:02.:04:09.

come here to work? What What is the workshop about? This is where we do

:04:09.:04:18.

the heavy structural work. These are for the twin sails lifting

:04:18.:04:22.

bridge, these are the traffic light standards for the ships and for the

:04:22.:04:26.

cars when the bridge goes up and down.

:04:26.:04:29.

London Engineering says it is very happy with its British workers.

:04:29.:04:33.

Many are older and have been here for years. But there is a dirth of

:04:33.:04:40.

younger British recruits. A little while ago, we had three chaps come

:04:40.:04:46.

in from an agency, one was Norwegian, one was Rumanian and one

:04:46.:04:50.

was a Polish lad. They were only with us for a few weeks, but no

:04:50.:04:55.

English guys. Whether that is to do with not enough apprenticeships,

:04:55.:05:01.

which I think is a lot of the case. In actual fact, we don't do it. I

:05:01.:05:04.

know the Government have been trying to do various bits and

:05:04.:05:08.

pieces on apprenticeships, I don't think anyone does it.

:05:08.:05:11.

It is tempting to assume that choking off immigration would

:05:11.:05:16.

liberate jobs for British workers. But this may not be a simple

:05:16.:05:19.

equation. Motivation, welfare dependency, skills, are all factors

:05:19.:05:25.

which cloud this picture. Even so, the Government's stated aim is to

:05:26.:05:29.

limit net migration by tens of thousands by 2015. We are a long

:05:29.:05:38.

way off that. Last year 59,000 people migrated to Britain. But --

:05:38.:05:46.

591,000 migrated to Britain, but 339,000 left, the lowest since 20

:05:46.:05:52.

01, it was a net high of net migration. The number not in

:05:52.:06:00.

education or training rose to over 1.1 million, a record 19.2% rise.

:06:00.:06:04.

It is a bad time to be young in this country? Shocking, soul

:06:04.:06:09.

destroying, and leading people down the wrong road. You can see, if

:06:09.:06:12.

they haven't got the opportunity to go out to work and not given the

:06:12.:06:17.

start somewhere, I feel really, really sorry.

:06:17.:06:20.

Labour argues the Government shows no sign of getting net migration

:06:20.:06:24.

under control. Eventhough, of course, they had 13 years in power

:06:24.:06:28.

to effect change. We think the Government has the wrong target in

:06:28.:06:32.

the first place, but they are also not fulfiling their promises when

:06:32.:06:36.

they were in opposition. They said that net migration should come down,

:06:36.:06:40.

it has actually gone up by 10% on their watch. They said they would

:06:40.:06:46.

make sure more people were repelled at the borders, in actual fact, the

:06:46.:06:50.

number of people repelled at the borders has gone down instead of up.

:06:50.:06:53.

Getting young people into work will take more than controlling

:06:53.:07:00.

immigration. Those at the sharp end feel there are other factors at

:07:00.:07:02.

play. Are you enough British youngsters coming forward for this

:07:03.:07:06.

type of work? I don't think they are. I don't think it is appealing

:07:06.:07:09.

to the youth of today that they genuinely want to get into what is

:07:09.:07:15.

described as an old industry. It is very much hands on, it is heavy, it

:07:15.:07:20.

is cumbersome, dirty. It is not attractive work. It is not

:07:20.:07:24.

computer-orientated, which a lot of people want to do. This really is a

:07:24.:07:29.

physical, demanding industry. Immigration from EU countries is

:07:29.:07:34.

dwarfed by those arriving from overseas. 218,000 of the 25 2,000

:07:34.:07:37.

net figure last year. This, then, is the bigger challenge for

:07:37.:07:45.

Government, it is hard to see how their target will be reached.

:07:45.:07:50.

I spoke to the Immigration Minister, Damian Green, a little earlier.

:07:50.:07:53.

Damian Green, in the Conservative manifesto, the pledge was to reduce

:07:53.:07:57.

migration to in the tens of thousands. Do you accept that you

:07:57.:08:01.

now won't make that bigger within the term of this parliament? Not at

:08:01.:08:04.

all. We deliberately said we would do it in the term of the parliament,

:08:04.:08:09.

because we knew that immigration was rising uncontrollably fast in

:08:09.:08:12.

the final years of the Labour Government, and we knew, therefore,

:08:12.:08:15.

that we would have to take early action, as we have done on work

:08:15.:08:19.

visas and students and so on, but that it would take a long time to

:08:19.:08:23.

do it. What we have seen with the figures today, shows how tough a

:08:23.:08:28.

challenge it is, how bad the situation was we inherited in 2010,

:08:28.:08:31.

and how right we were to start straight away doing this, it will

:08:31.:08:35.

take the whole parliament. actual figures show, net migration,

:08:35.:08:43.

to March 2011, 245,000, to March 2010, 22 2,000, so actually, net

:08:43.:08:48.

migration is rising since you have been in power? According to the ONS

:08:48.:08:52.

statistics we saw today, it seems to have peaked last September.

:08:52.:08:57.

September a year ago. At 255,000, and has drifted down a very small

:08:57.:09:01.

amount, I agree, through December and now to March of this year.

:09:01.:09:05.

Nothing like enough, I agree, but that all happened before our

:09:05.:09:09.

measures really started to take effect. As I say, that's why we had

:09:10.:09:16.

to start straight away, so we will see the benefits in the years to

:09:16.:09:20.

come. So not a guarantee you will get the migration into tens of

:09:20.:09:25.

thousands within the time scale? That is what we set in the

:09:25.:09:28.

manifesto and in the coalition agreement, that is what we are

:09:28.:09:32.

aiming at. How much do you think the possibility of getting a job in

:09:32.:09:38.

the UK is what attracts migrants? For some people that is obviously

:09:38.:09:41.

the attraction. But the biggest source of immigration into Britain

:09:41.:09:45.

is the student route. That accounts at its peak for about two-thirds of

:09:45.:09:48.

the number of migrants that come here. That is why one of the big

:09:48.:09:52.

actions we have taken has been to close down hundreds of bogus

:09:52.:10:01.

colleges that were bringing in tens of thousands of students every year,

:10:01.:10:07.

"students. Almost 100,000 from the European

:10:07.:10:11.

Union more this year than last came in from the European Union on the

:10:11.:10:14.

Labour Force Survey, good thing or bad thing they have jobs?

:10:14.:10:17.

depends the kind of jobs they are doing. One of the other things we

:10:17.:10:21.

are trying to do, apart from reduce the numbers, is be much more

:10:22.:10:25.

targeted on the people who come here. Where we can control it, from

:10:25.:10:28.

outside the European Union, we have set the bar at zero, we don't bring

:10:28.:10:32.

in any unskilled workers. For skilled workers we are insisting

:10:32.:10:36.

they have a graduate-level job, a decent salary. How is it, people

:10:36.:10:39.

can't understand why unemployment is rising, and yet those migrants

:10:39.:10:43.

in the jobs, the number of those is rising as well? One of the things

:10:43.:10:47.

we clearly need to do is clear up the mess of the skills system in

:10:47.:10:52.

this country. It is certainly true that many employers say they will

:10:52.:10:57.

employ a foreign-born, often a European worker, rather than a

:10:57.:11:00.

British worker, because they think British workers haven't the skills

:11:00.:11:03.

or attitude. That is another problem we are trying to solve.

:11:03.:11:08.

What do you say to an employer that is faced with a Polish worker and a

:11:08.:11:12.

British-born worker, the Polish worker, on the face of it, has more

:11:12.:11:15.

qualifications, are you really saying to the employer, take the

:11:15.:11:18.

British-born worker over the Polish worker? We are saying that

:11:18.:11:21.

employers have a wider sense of responsibility, so they should look

:11:21.:11:26.

to their own community, they should participate. Can you enforce that?

:11:26.:11:29.

They should participate in the training schemes, we are funding

:11:29.:11:33.

tens of thousands more apprenticeships than we have had

:11:33.:11:35.

before. Can we force someone to take a British worker, no. When

:11:35.:11:41.

Gordon Brown talked about British jobs for British workers, that was

:11:41.:11:45.

a meaningless soundbite. Should the employer take the skilled Polish

:11:46.:11:50.

worker over the unskilled British worker should he not? We should

:11:50.:11:54.

create more skilled British workers to compete with the skilled Polish

:11:54.:11:57.

workers or from elsewhere in Europe. That is the long-term way to do it

:11:57.:12:04.

to make sure we are more competitive. You have used the word

:12:04.:12:09.

long-term" can I quote Iain Duncan Smith from July, he said short-term

:12:09.:12:12.

immigration control is critical, otherwise we will lose another

:12:12.:12:15.

generation to dependency and homelessness. But the short-term is

:12:15.:12:18.

what you are fail anything? That is precisely what we are not fail

:12:18.:12:22.

anything. That is why he the first thing we did was introduce a limit

:12:22.:12:26.

even on skilled workers. The limit of unskilled workers from outside

:12:26.:12:31.

the EU is zero. Is the inside the EU, they are taking some of the

:12:31.:12:37.

skilled jobs? Actually, if you look at that net figure, far too high of

:12:37.:12:44.

250,000. More than 200,000 of that net figure comes from people who

:12:44.:12:48.

have come here from outside the European Union. Looking at the

:12:48.:12:54.

figures for NEETs, and the figure of over a million, and do you sense

:12:54.:12:58.

a panic in Government ranks, do you sense a panic that is what has

:12:59.:13:04.

brought on this sudden billion pounds tomorrow to try to tackle

:13:04.:13:07.

16-24s? No, it is not panic at all. We were saying for years in

:13:07.:13:10.

opposition, first of all, that immigration was too high. And

:13:10.:13:13.

second, that the problem of the NEETs, the young people not in

:13:14.:13:16.

education or training, was one of the most serious problems facing

:13:17.:13:20.

this country. That is why a lot of the early radical action we have

:13:20.:13:23.

taken in Government has been on welfare reform, and has been on

:13:23.:13:27.

immigration. They are, as you say, they are two sides of the same coin,

:13:27.:13:34.

you have to get both of them right to have a stable labour market, and

:13:34.:13:38.

a stable society. That is why it is so urgent we have worked on both of

:13:38.:13:39.

them from day one of being in office.

:13:39.:13:43.

Thank you very much. Here to discuss the impact

:13:43.:13:46.

immigration might have is David Goodhart of the think-tank, Demos,

:13:47.:13:54.

and the magazine Prospect, and our guest from the Royal Commonwealth

:13:54.:13:58.

Society, and Kate Robertson, an advertising executive. First of all,

:13:58.:14:02.

to you all, employers have a responsibility to look to their own

:14:02.:14:05.

communities, that is what Damian Green has said what does that

:14:05.:14:11.

actually mean? Well, I think there is a danger that we could have a

:14:11.:14:14.

Saudi Arabianisation of our labour market, we have a lot of local

:14:14.:14:17.

people, British nationals, sitting at home on benefit, and hundreds of

:14:17.:14:21.

thousands of people coming in from the rest of Europe, or outside

:14:21.:14:24.

Europe, and taking jobs, that is not a healthy thing for society. I

:14:24.:14:27.

think there are things you should be able to do. Even within the

:14:28.:14:31.

European Union, even given free movement, which is part of the

:14:31.:14:35.

religion of the EU, obviously, you ought to be able to have

:14:35.:14:39.

qualifications and caveats to that in areas of high youth unemployment.

:14:39.:14:43.

Why not give special incentives to British employers, or local

:14:43.:14:46.

employers to employ local people. That would be a restrictive

:14:47.:14:50.

practice, eventhough they are EU nationals? It wouldn't be a

:14:50.:14:54.

restricted practice. Lots of EU countries have these caveats.

:14:54.:14:57.

Germany, for example, the public officials in Germany are not

:14:57.:15:05.

allowed to be non-nationals. Would that be an argument to restrict

:15:05.:15:08.

immigration? The first thing that strikes but this discussion is the

:15:08.:15:12.

word "local" in the context of the UK, since joining the European

:15:12.:15:17.

Union and the single labour market, is an employer in this country has

:15:17.:15:21.

a choice of something like 450 million potential workers resident

:15:21.:15:24.

in 27 European Union member states. That is great advantage to the

:15:24.:15:31.

British economy, and that is something that employers have had

:15:31.:15:34.

taken advantage of. That doesn't de diminish the responsibility of

:15:34.:15:38.

employers to invest in local communities and invest in the

:15:38.:15:42.

skills of young people, it is getting the balance right that is

:15:42.:15:46.

the trick. From your point of view as an employer and somebody who

:15:47.:15:50.

came from to this country from South Africa, how do you temper the

:15:50.:15:56.

argument about sourcing local, as it were? I think I'm where Danny is

:15:56.:15:59.

on this, I don't think it is as simple as conflating these two

:16:00.:16:03.

issues, the rising immigration and rising unemployment among our young

:16:03.:16:09.

people. I say "our", obviously I'm an immigrant. What I do feel

:16:09.:16:12.

strongly about is we in business absolutely have a responsibility to

:16:12.:16:15.

young people in this country. And I realise there is a potential there,

:16:15.:16:19.

I think you are right when you picked Dave up about restrictive

:16:20.:16:23.

practice. But I feel very strongly about the guy I work for, he

:16:23.:16:27.

believes who cares wins, and he's absolutely determined in our

:16:27.:16:34.

company that he care to win. I care about unemployed British youngsters.

:16:34.:16:39.

But do you think immigration policy hits young working-class kids,

:16:39.:16:43.

disproportionately? Of course it does, that is partly to do with the

:16:43.:16:46.

membership of the European Union. It is true that we can't do

:16:46.:16:54.

anything about it if we want to. Danny says it is a great benefit to

:16:54.:16:58.

the British economy. Actually the economic consensus is that mass

:16:58.:17:03.

immigration in the last 15 years has not made a huge difference to

:17:03.:17:06.

British citizens, it has been beneficial to immigrants and

:17:06.:17:11.

employers and better off people, not particularly good for the

:17:11.:17:15.

economy as a whole. Do you agree with that? Absolutely not. The

:17:15.:17:21.

thing we miss here is the counter effect. What would have happened in

:17:21.:17:25.

Britain had the yue eastern Europeans not come, we would still

:17:25.:17:28.

face an employment challenge and a problem with young people. You

:17:28.:17:32.

might well argue, if you can't import the workers what may well

:17:32.:17:36.

have happened is the jobs would have been exported. If you couldn't

:17:36.:17:40.

get someone to pick the strawberries in farms in the UK,

:17:40.:17:43.

Sainsbury's would have bought them from elsewhere. What do you think

:17:43.:17:47.

about that? There is absolutely an issue here about the kind of job,

:17:47.:17:52.

and the other thing that is serious is attitude to work, and there is

:17:52.:17:57.

absolutely an issue there. It is known immigrants work...Do You see,

:17:57.:18:07.

counter to that, do you see an attitude to work which is Less

:18:07.:18:11.

enthusiastic, and the willingness to go the extra mile among British-

:18:11.:18:15.

born, local people? I think that is an empirical assumption and it is

:18:15.:18:19.

not the truth. It is not what I see in the work place, it is not what I

:18:19.:18:25.

see in British youngsters. There is a limit, as you said, to what can

:18:25.:18:31.

be done about the EU, the vast amounts of immigrants from the sub-

:18:31.:18:34.

continent, that group of people will be restricted? I think that is

:18:34.:18:38.

where the cuts will fall, and one of the challenges is, as the

:18:38.:18:43.

minister has just said, half of the people who came last year are

:18:43.:18:46.

international students, paying billions into the economy, cross

:18:46.:18:50.

subsidising UK students in educational institutions. We are

:18:50.:18:53.

talking about hundreds of bogus colleges, but actually a lot of

:18:53.:18:58.

further education colleges a lot of higher education institutions will

:18:58.:19:02.

absolutely need and thrive on international students? 300,000 a

:19:02.:19:06.

year, 300,000 plus. There are a lot of students, in the sub-university

:19:06.:19:10.

level, who are coming here, because they want to get permanent

:19:10.:19:16.

residence. You are taking further education colleges into that as

:19:16.:19:21.

well, really? Absolutely. You press down on one area of immigration,

:19:21.:19:26.

the work permits have been pushed right down from outside the EU.

:19:26.:19:29.

Labour started doing this before the Tories came into power, and

:19:29.:19:34.

other things spring up if you allow them to. Students is where it is

:19:34.:19:37.

springing up at the moment. Quite right to push it down. This

:19:37.:19:42.

wouldn't damage higher education. Really? This cannot only be solved

:19:42.:19:46.

by Government, whether it is caps or Government policy, or even I

:19:46.:19:49.

think education policy there is an issue here. I think business

:19:49.:19:53.

absolutely has a role to play here. If you look at the number of

:19:53.:19:58.

businesses in the UK, who make profits in excess of �10 million a

:19:58.:20:03.

year, there are lots, thousands. Where is the problem with looking

:20:03.:20:06.

at that, making slightly less profit, and getting young people

:20:06.:20:10.

into training and into work. And I believe business has got to

:20:10.:20:14.

absolutely step up to the plate on this one. It is interesting, where

:20:14.:20:19.

Richard Watson was filming, he said openly, we don't have apprentices.

:20:19.:20:23.

Do you think it is acceptable for firms, for example, engineering

:20:23.:20:27.

firms, not to have apprentices at the moment? No I don't. He said so

:20:27.:20:32.

there. He said he himself felt he wasn't doing UN I'm very concerned

:20:32.:20:37.

in my industry, I'm hyperaware, as a big employer, that we haven't

:20:37.:20:43.

done enough. I completely accept, that we need to do much more, and

:20:43.:20:47.

I'm determined to do it. Will the Government make the targets of tens

:20:47.:20:51.

of thousands in five years. We are talking ten of thousand, we are

:20:51.:20:56.

talking less than 99,000? They could easily do T we are in a

:20:56.:21:01.

ludicrous panic about t they have been in power when the numbers were

:21:01.:21:04.

done of six months. They are bearing down radically on all the

:21:04.:21:10.

three big, student, work, family union routes, they are clamping

:21:10.:21:14.

down radically on that, they have another three years to go. Does

:21:14.:21:18.

immigration, per se, undermine the bonds of community. Is there a

:21:18.:21:22.

bigger conversation there then? have indeed had a huge amount of

:21:22.:21:26.

immigration in recent times. I think the chances are immigration

:21:26.:21:32.

will start to fall. As the economy and the economic effects take place.

:21:32.:21:36.

The Government is damed if it does, dammed if it doesn't. If it doesn't

:21:36.:21:43.

make the target, people will feel they have been sold a false promise.

:21:43.:21:47.

If it does meet the target we might not get the right workers for the

:21:47.:21:53.

right jobs to meet economic recovery.

:21:53.:21:57.

In these precarious times do people in work have to accept the deal in

:21:57.:22:02.

life they thought they had has changed. Or the right that they

:22:02.:22:05.

have earned that deal and they have to fight for it. That is the

:22:05.:22:09.

fundamental issue at the heart of the public sector strike next week,

:22:09.:22:14.

which the Chancellor described as a self-inflicted wound to the British

:22:14.:22:19.

economy. Is the protection of pension at the moment a more

:22:19.:22:23.

visceral issue than pay that mill yopbts are prepared to strike over

:22:23.:22:27.

it.Le -- millions are prepared to strike over it.

:22:27.:22:31.

The lessons of the 126 general strike loom large in British

:22:31.:22:37.

industrial relations. The unions, an example of how

:22:37.:22:42.

concerted action can have exponential impact.

:22:42.:22:47.

For the Government, it showed that strikes can be defeated if the non-

:22:47.:22:52.

unionised middle-class turns against them. In 1926, office

:22:52.:22:57.

workers replaced the strikers, shovelling coal to keep the power

:22:57.:22:59.

stations running. No question of that next Wednesday, but the

:22:59.:23:04.

Government is trying to get other civil servants to staff passport

:23:04.:23:10.

control. Well I think it is an act of desperation. The day before they

:23:10.:23:14.

were offering to fly staff back from embassies around the world.

:23:14.:23:17.

Now they want people without any training to do a very important job

:23:17.:23:21.

at the borders. What they really should be doing is try to settle

:23:21.:23:24.

the pensions dispute. For the Prime Minister, there were two good

:23:24.:23:29.

reasons for being at the Toyota plant in Derbyshire today. Firstly,

:23:29.:23:35.

the company has announced �100 million of new investment,

:23:35.:23:39.

guarnteeing and creating new jobs. Secondly and a big factor in the

:23:39.:23:42.

company's decision, Toyota in the UK has never lost an hour's

:23:42.:23:45.

production to strikes. We will do what we can, for instance, to make

:23:45.:23:51.

sure that our airports remain open, and that our border queues are not

:23:51.:23:54.

intolerable. Everyone should be clear that there is going to be

:23:54.:23:58.

disruption, and the reason for that disruption, the responsibility for

:23:58.:24:02.

that disruption, lies squarely with the trade union leaders, who have

:24:03.:24:06.

decided on a strike, even while negotiations are on going. I think

:24:06.:24:09.

that is irresponsible. I think it is wrong, and people should know

:24:09.:24:13.

who to blame. When Toyota was going through a

:24:13.:24:18.

downturn, the workers agreed a 10% drop in Sally, rather than face job

:24:18.:24:23.

cuts. The -- in salary, rather than face job cuts. The Government is

:24:23.:24:28.

trying to get public sector workers to do the same thing, and agree to

:24:28.:24:32.

a reduction in their pension entitlement, but they haven't got

:24:32.:24:36.

close to agreement, eventhough there was an improved offer. This

:24:36.:24:41.

man used to work for the GMB unions and said the unions are doing what

:24:41.:24:44.

they are supposed to be doing? David Cameron can't have it both

:24:44.:24:48.

ways, either the Government aren't granting concessions to the trade

:24:48.:24:51.

unions, in which case it is perfectly reasonable for them to

:24:51.:24:54.

say they are going on strike, or the Government is granting

:24:54.:24:57.

concessions to the trade unions and their action is working and the

:24:57.:25:01.

strike action seems perfectly sensible. As the unions leaflet

:25:01.:25:05.

workers outside the Treasury, many Conservative backbenchers want the

:25:05.:25:09.

Government to legislate to ban strikes, unless a majority of

:25:09.:25:13.

members are balloted. Ministers fear such action could seem

:25:13.:25:16.

inflammatory, instead they are talking about the cost of the

:25:16.:25:22.

strikes. Half a billion pounds, they say, in lost output. We hope

:25:22.:25:27.

that they won't be too paj damaging at all, it very much de-- damaging

:25:27.:25:30.

at all, it all depends whether public sector workers use the time

:25:30.:25:34.

between now and Wednesday, to look at the website, and check what

:25:34.:25:38.

their pension will actually be. At the end of this, public sector

:25:38.:25:40.

workers will still have pensions which will be the envy of most

:25:40.:25:47.

people in the work force. Just like 1926, the Government

:25:47.:25:51.

strategy is to get non-unionised opinion against the strikes. They

:25:51.:25:55.

are, ministers insist, striking to keep the benefit that is you pay

:25:55.:26:00.

for, and can't afford for yourself. The strikes have, of course,

:26:00.:26:04.

created a big problem for the leader of the opposition, Labour

:26:04.:26:08.

was founded and is funded by the unionists. But Mr Miliband can't

:26:08.:26:14.

risk coming down on their side. Strikes are always a sign of

:26:14.:26:17.

failure. That is absolutely clear. That is why I say no stone should

:26:17.:26:21.

be left unturned to prevent these strikes happening. That is why it

:26:22.:26:26.

is the responsibility of both sides. Of course it is the case that I

:26:26.:26:30.

think throughout all of the services, basic services should be

:26:30.:26:34.

maintained. Because everything should be done to make sure that

:26:34.:26:39.

the safety of the public is not put at risk by this. There is, though,

:26:39.:26:43.

annoyance among some trade unionists that Mr Miliband can,

:26:43.:26:48.

apparently, be more supportive of the tents outside St Paul's, than

:26:48.:26:52.

public sector workers. I thought he got it right in June when he took

:26:52.:26:58.

the stance of urging caution, and distancing himself from the strikes.

:26:58.:27:03.

I also think it is legitimate for unions to go on strike, but Ed has

:27:03.:27:06.

complicated matters for his support of the Occupy movement. And a lot

:27:06.:27:11.

of trade union members are saying if you he back the students and

:27:11.:27:16.

others camped on St Paul's, why not us. In 126 some of the big winners

:27:16.:27:20.

of the general strike were the pit ponies, who had a holiday in the

:27:20.:27:24.

sunshine. The biggest problem for today's politicians is no-one can

:27:24.:27:29.

predict how these strikes can go on, unless you know that, you can't

:27:29.:27:37.

know public opinion will end up? The Conservative MP, Dominic Raab

:27:37.:27:41.

and the Assistant-General secretary of Unison, Karen Jennings are both

:27:41.:27:44.

here. Ed Milliband said strikes are always a sign of failure on both

:27:44.:27:48.

sides, do you accept your role in that failure? What I would say to

:27:48.:27:52.

Ed Milliband is that he needs to know the detail of what's happening

:27:52.:27:56.

in those discussions. Don't you think he does? No, I don't think he

:27:56.:28:00.

does know the detail. I don't think very many people do know what is

:28:00.:28:04.

going on in relation to the negotiations. The opposition leader,

:28:04.:28:08.

doesn't know the detail of what is going on in the negotiations?

:28:08.:28:11.

may give you an example of what is happening. In local Government, the

:28:11.:28:14.

employers have said that they don't have the information from the

:28:14.:28:19.

Treasury to be able to negotiate. So they have gone away to try to

:28:19.:28:24.

get the information, there are no talks now until after the

:28:24.:28:27.

industrial action has taken place. Do you think Ed Milliband would be

:28:27.:28:30.

more supportive, that is what you are saying, he would be more

:28:30.:28:34.

supportive if he knew the detail? think Ed Milliband was quite

:28:34.:28:38.

supportive today when he said today, for example, that the tax that is

:28:38.:28:43.

going to be on public sector workers, 3.5%, 50% contribution

:28:43.:28:47.

rate, on public sector workers only, and not a penny of that will go

:28:47.:28:54.

towards their pensions. Dominic Raab, is it reasonable to put

:28:54.:28:58.

public sector workers in this position at the moment? Of feeling

:28:58.:29:03.

that they are so uncared for and undermined that they have to go on

:29:03.:29:07.

strike. People that have never considered going on strike in their

:29:07.:29:11.

lives? You take moral acrobatics to come to that conclusion. These

:29:11.:29:15.

strikes will be very damaging for your economy, whatever the estimate.

:29:15.:29:19.

At a time when we are vulnerable economic clee. The reality for

:29:19.:29:25.

public sector workers, in the end they will have better pensions than

:29:25.:29:30.

the private sector workers, subsidising them to an enormous

:29:30.:29:34.

deagreement your average carpenter and hairdresser, will not be able

:29:34.:29:38.

to access them, they will be suss dicing them. They will face mass --

:29:38.:29:41.

subsidising them, and they will face massive disruption because of

:29:41.:29:46.

the strikes. It is unfair and irresponsible? It is not

:29:46.:29:49.

irresponsible, we have had a ballot of the members, the vast majority

:29:49.:29:53.

of those that have responded are women. Who are deeply concerned,

:29:53.:29:58.

one about public services, two about what's happening to jobs, and

:29:58.:30:03.

three, that the pension that they have contributed to, is being cut,

:30:03.:30:07.

and also that they are going to have to work much longer. This is

:30:07.:30:12.

deeply, deeply unfair. There are trade unions that historically, for

:30:12.:30:19.

the first time, are going to take industrial action. Health service

:30:19.:30:25.

trade unions alongside Unison, this is democracy in action. And you

:30:25.:30:28.

would suggest that democracy in action is a very good thing, in

:30:28.:30:31.

defence of liberty, you talked about that. You would presumably

:30:31.:30:35.

endorse the right to strike and the right to make that decision?

:30:35.:30:37.

example the European convention talk about the right to strike t

:30:37.:30:42.

needs to be balanced with other freedoms and other people's

:30:42.:30:46.

freedoms to go about their daily business and work. If you take the

:30:46.:30:53.

ballot for Unison, Karen's union, just one in five union members

:30:53.:30:56.

positively back the strike. If they can't convince their own membership

:30:56.:31:02.

to support the strikes t tells you volumes about the case. That is why

:31:02.:31:05.

the public, overwhelmingly oppose the strikes. I would urge Karen and

:31:05.:31:10.

leaders to think again. You say the public overwhelmingly opposes the

:31:10.:31:16.

strikes. Have you taken a ballot? All the polling from June to this

:31:16.:31:19.

weekend show overwhelming opposition to the strikes. It is

:31:19.:31:23.

obvious why, the vast majority of private sector tax-payers can't

:31:23.:31:26.

afford this. Don't you think it is disgusting that this Government has

:31:26.:31:32.

shown no leadership over private sector people. Who very often do

:31:32.:31:36.

have poor pensions, but don't forget the public sector pensions,

:31:36.:31:41.

if you look at a local Government worker, the average pension it �pun

:31:41.:31:46.

3,000. If you look at a health service worker. They have been

:31:46.:31:55.

protected. It is �6,000. They are protected. They will have to pay

:31:55.:32:00.

for more the pension. It is a career-average, but you accept they

:32:00.:32:07.

make a bigger contribution? There is protection in place for those up

:32:07.:32:11.

to �18,000. Look at Europe and the US, we have a massive debt crisis,

:32:11.:32:14.

sure, we are making tough decisions, of course, that comes with the

:32:14.:32:19.

territory. It is incredibly self- indulge gent to believe the public

:32:19.:32:25.

sector can be immune from change in this way. Do you accept public

:32:25.:32:29.

sector workers should pay something for more their pension? No, I don't

:32:29.:32:33.

accept that public sector workers should pay something for more their

:32:33.:32:39.

pension. Your negotiating position is, not a penny more? What we are

:32:39.:32:42.

negotiating at the moment, is looking at a new scheme, which

:32:42.:32:46.

might be different from a final salary scheme, and we are up for

:32:46.:32:50.

talking about that. I don't see why we should increase the amount

:32:51.:32:54.

people are paying towards their pension, when the money that is

:32:54.:32:57.

being increased is going towards paying back the deficit. It has

:32:57.:33:04.

nothing to do with their pensions. Surely, if you want as you do,

:33:04.:33:09.

health service and education reform, you should be undermining the

:33:09.:33:13.

people that day in day out deliver vital services for you, you

:33:13.:33:16.

shouldn't joined mine them? I don't think we are, that is why the

:33:16.:33:20.

Treasury and cabinet office made a very generous offer to try to bring

:33:20.:33:24.

it to a conclusion. Those approaching ten years of retirement

:33:24.:33:27.

will not be affected by the changes. The Government has gone probably

:33:27.:33:36.

too far. Very briefly, can I just confirm, too far, too far? In what

:33:36.:33:39.

respect. Do you think that critical operations on Wednesday will go

:33:39.:33:47.

ahead in hospitals? Critical operations, of course they will.

:33:47.:33:51.

Guess where you will find the world's most highly paid football

:33:51.:33:59.

player, not at Manchester City or elsewhere, but dags stran. A

:33:59.:34:02.

Muslim-dominated Republic, next door to Chechnya. Now a billionare

:34:02.:34:08.

is hope to go change things, by pouring vast sums of money into the

:34:09.:34:13.

football team and projects. Can changing things on the pitch change

:34:13.:34:17.

politics. People say it is bread and circuses, without clean rule of

:34:17.:34:25.

law the insurgency will continue. Young people from Dagestan have a

:34:25.:34:29.

new swagger in their step. Something is restoring pride and

:34:29.:34:37.

hope to people in this downtrodden part of Russia. It's football.

:34:37.:34:47.
:34:47.:34:48.

The local team, Makhachkala is being thrust into the spotlight.

:34:48.:34:54.

Global stars line the city streets, inspiring people to dream. But,

:34:54.:35:00.

Dagestan is now the epicentre of an Islamist insurgency. Militants

:35:00.:35:05.

fight for an Islamic state across the north caucuses, Russian

:35:05.:35:10.

soldiers have spent two decades battling this rebellion, in the

:35:10.:35:13.

Muslim south. Bombings and assassinations happen virtually

:35:13.:35:18.

every day. Terror attacks eminating from here, have reached the heart

:35:18.:35:25.

of Moscow. Most Russians are too terrified to come to Dagestan. But

:35:25.:35:31.

tonight, the premier Moscow club, CSKA, is in town, to play the

:35:31.:35:35.

resurgent, star-studded home side. Cameroon striker, Samuel Eto'o, has

:35:35.:35:43.

just signed for a reported cool $30 million a year. Making him the

:35:43.:35:49.

world's best paid player. Brazilian legend, Roberto Carlos, is player-

:35:49.:35:54.

manager. The fans cheer on the team and four minutes in Eto'o scores,

:35:54.:36:04.
:36:04.:36:04.

the crowd goes wild. It just the kind of morale booster they needed

:36:04.:36:08.

in this violent and tired Republic. Those who have poured millions into

:36:08.:36:10.

the team hope it is money well spent.

:36:10.:36:15.

But who is paying for this? It is a local boy turned billionare, called

:36:15.:36:21.

Suleiman Kerimov, he's the one bank rolling this football fantasy. The

:36:21.:36:26.

reclusive yacht-owning oligarch, is rumoured to have had his epiphany,

:36:26.:36:33.

when his Ferrari crashed in 2006. After cheating death, he decided to

:36:33.:36:38.

invest in his embattled homeland. What do people think of Kerimov's

:36:38.:36:43.

global shopping spree, in a place where most people are lucky to earn

:36:43.:36:49.

�250 a month. TRANSLATION: It is his money, he can do he likes with

:36:49.:36:56.

it. Everything he -- He can do what he likes with it. Everything he

:36:56.:36:59.

does is to support our Dagestan. is not just about football,

:37:00.:37:07.

everything is connected. The ecstacy wears off, the Moscow

:37:07.:37:11.

side equalise, and then score another four goals. As the mood

:37:11.:37:17.

sours, I discover that Kerimov's project is not without its critics.

:37:17.:37:25.

I spot a banner, better rating fans for ignoring -- berating fans for

:37:25.:37:32.

ignoring Islamic principles. The men next to it subscribe to a

:37:32.:37:40.

growing militant Islam here, called ZAF feeism. TRANSLATION: We don't

:37:40.:37:46.

want football to be a new religion, we, the Islamic youth, don't like

:37:46.:37:50.

it. TRANSLATION: Our Republic is the poorest part of the Russian

:37:50.:37:55.

federation, but �20 million is spent on one player, it is like

:37:55.:37:59.

gladiators in ancient Rome, and the people are starving. Our people are

:37:59.:38:03.

hungry, they are being killed, and we are in the middle of a civil war,

:38:03.:38:08.

and yet they sit and watch this spectacle. You don't have to stray

:38:08.:38:12.

far from the football to see what this man means. Just around the

:38:12.:38:18.

corner of the stadium, I'm shown the site of the latest bomb blast.

:38:18.:38:22.

First a device exploded outside a shop selling alcohol. Then there

:38:22.:38:27.

was a second, more powerful blast, timed to coincide with the arrival

:38:27.:38:32.

of the emergency services. One policeman and a child were killed,

:38:32.:38:40.

60 were wounded. My guide is a counter terrorist officer I met at

:38:40.:38:44.

the football match. Doesn't want to show his face. Government officials

:38:44.:38:50.

and police are the main targets of the militants. TRANSLATION: Many of

:38:50.:38:55.

our colleagues die on duty. Many mothers have lost sons and wives

:38:55.:39:00.

have lost husbands, children their fathers. There are loss, but what

:39:00.:39:03.

can we do we have to fight this battle to the end.

:39:03.:39:08.

This building is the centre of the fight against extremism, and it is

:39:08.:39:10.

extraordinary that we are being given a chance to go inside and

:39:10.:39:15.

talk to the people who work here about their jobs.

:39:15.:39:25.

I ask my guide whether things are improving? TRANSLATION:

:39:25.:39:29.

Unfortunately, it is not getting any better. They have become more

:39:29.:39:32.

brutal, and more cynical, they are just people who will do anything.

:39:32.:39:37.

They have been sucked into the swamp, and they can't get out.

:39:37.:39:42.

Another officer shows me a recent example of this brutality.

:39:42.:39:45.

The story of this man is particularly shocking, his father

:39:45.:39:50.

was a local police chief, who was shot dead. Then, when his wife, his

:39:50.:39:53.

sister, and his daughter went to put flowers on the freshly-dug

:39:53.:39:59.

grave, they were blown up. The last remaining member of the family was

:39:59.:40:09.
:40:09.:40:09.

this man, he was killed too, not long afterwards.

:40:09.:40:11.

Billionare owner Suleiman Kerimov believes creating jobs and

:40:12.:40:15.

improving lives are the best ways to fight the insurgency. This is

:40:15.:40:24.

the promo for one of his projects. A brand new city.

:40:24.:40:28.

His righthandman, is showing me this stadium, part of his

:40:28.:40:32.

employment strategy. Kerimov is also finalising plans for yet

:40:32.:40:37.

another even bigger stadium, for potential use in Russia's 2018

:40:37.:40:41.

World Cup. TRANSLATION: Football was just a

:40:41.:40:45.

starting point. What is going on here is very bad. If there were

:40:45.:40:49.

jobs, that would already be something. If I had no way out, no

:40:49.:40:54.

job, no food and a family to feed, I might take up arms too.

:40:54.:40:58.

I tell him it seems to me Kerimov is doing more than the Government

:40:58.:41:04.

here? TRANSLATION: Indeed he is, everybody knows he's doing more

:41:04.:41:07.

than the Government. Take this stadium, originally a Government

:41:07.:41:12.

project, and a huge amount of money was provided, nothing was done.

:41:12.:41:17.

Now he has bought it and it has been built properly, but the public

:41:17.:41:23.

funds were just stolen, that is what happens here.

:41:23.:41:27.

Sickened by entrenched corruption, more and more people are drawn to

:41:27.:41:33.

new ideas, and rejecting the mainstream, football is no option.

:41:33.:41:38.

The Salafi league has 32 seems playing every Sunday morning, the

:41:38.:41:43.

co-ordinator, is dismissive of Kerimov's money-driven model.

:41:43.:41:47.

TRANSLATION: I don't like their slogan that we are the territory of

:41:47.:41:51.

Ang e, we live in the territory of Dagestan, which I would like to be

:41:51.:42:01.

the territory of Islam. Salafi's poll a strict -- Salafis

:42:01.:42:06.

follow a strict brand of Islam, they believe Sufi Muslims are

:42:06.:42:10.

tainted because of their support for the authorities and support for

:42:10.:42:15.

a secular state. A Salafi dream is a new social order in Dagestan, one

:42:15.:42:21.

built on Sharia Law, they tell me. TRANSLATION: If we see a kissing a

:42:21.:42:26.

woman or drinking, we discreetly remind him of where he lives.

:42:26.:42:31.

him how people react? Generally people react well. Believe me, if

:42:31.:42:37.

we had our way, you wouldn't be able to buy alcohol or tobacco here.

:42:37.:42:42.

You would never find women who walk around uncovered like you.

:42:42.:42:49.

What does he think about the people who take up arms for the cause?

:42:49.:42:52.

TRANSLATION: These people have chosen a certain path, and will

:42:52.:42:58.

answer for what they do. If they are right, then there awaits them

:42:58.:43:01.

enormous prizes, hundreds of times greater than mine. But I swear to

:43:01.:43:07.

Allah I do not condemn them. This kind of talk alarms the

:43:07.:43:12.

authorities, and sometimes leads to heavyhanded responses from the

:43:12.:43:15.

Security Services. The consequences can be deadly.

:43:15.:43:23.

I have come to investigate an incident in theville age, three

:43:23.:43:29.

hours from Makhachkala. -- the village, three years miles from

:43:29.:43:36.

Makhachkala. There is not much here and the outlook is believe belief.

:43:36.:43:42.

This mosque has attracted new believers, Salafis, in May, during

:43:42.:43:47.

Friday prayers, the building was surrounded by armed security forces.

:43:47.:43:51.

Plain clothed officers in muddy boots burst in and arrested 150

:43:52.:43:56.

worshipers, including 15 school boys.

:43:56.:44:00.

Said Gereikhanov, the young Salafi Imam, shows me evidence of abuse,

:44:00.:44:06.

the men and boys were all taken to a police station where they were

:44:06.:44:12.

beaten, some had their hair torn out and beards shaved off. He says

:44:12.:44:18.

the village teachers appeared to be permissive. TRANSLATION: The police

:44:18.:44:22.

summoned the headmaster and the deputy to the station, they saw the

:44:22.:44:25.

badly-bruised young men and heard shouts and schemes, they knew what

:44:25.:44:30.

was going on. The teachers called them dogs for going to the mosques.

:44:30.:44:37.

The headmaster, Sadikullah Akhmedov, was a sworn enemy of the Salafis,

:44:37.:44:40.

at this heated public meeting immediately after the mosque

:44:41.:44:44.

invasion. He claimed the young radicals would soon impose Sharia

:44:44.:44:49.

Law on the village and force all the women to wear vails. He

:44:49.:44:56.

denounced a rein of ter -- regin of terror where pro-secular teachers

:44:56.:44:59.

like him would be murdered. Little did he expect he would become the

:44:59.:45:03.

next target. I head for the school and find a

:45:03.:45:07.

biology teacher who agrees to tell me what happened to his boss on the

:45:07.:45:17.
:45:17.:45:17.

night of Julyth. -- July 9th.

:45:17.:45:25.

They shot him in his home at point blank rairpbg in the face. -- range

:45:25.:45:31.

in the face. His wife and son were watching TV, nobody knows what they

:45:31.:45:36.

did it. The situation here is still very tense, back at the mosque,

:45:36.:45:40.

they tell me they are sure the radical underground killed the

:45:40.:45:44.

school head. TRANSLATION: We don't think murdering people is the way

:45:44.:45:47.

to solve problems, that is not the way to bring about justice. It just

:45:47.:45:53.

makes things worse. This war has been going on for 20 years.

:45:53.:45:57.

But with increasing numbers of young men from villages like these,

:45:57.:46:02.

taking up arms, it seems the very lawlessness of the authorities is

:46:02.:46:09.

feeding this insurgency. It will take a lot more than football stars,

:46:09.:46:16.

and Kerimov's billions, to cure the ills in this deeply divided society.

:46:16.:46:19.

Tomorrow morning's front pages, beginning with the Financial Times,

:46:19.:46:23.

you have the story that the US blocks key climate fund. But below

:46:23.:46:28.

it Tory pledges under pressure, as net migration hits record high. The

:46:28.:46:33.

Mail has another story, the Conservative minister, Michael Gove,

:46:33.:46:37.

he takes on education establishment in a passionate rallying cry for a

:46:37.:46:39.

in a passionate rallying cry for a return to traditional teaching

:46:39.:46:49.
:46:49.:47:11.

Tonight we leave you with the worst football team in the world. Well,

:47:11.:47:16.

they were the worst, but that may now have changed, after American

:47:16.:47:21.

Samoa finally scored and won a match against Tonga. It followed 0

:47:21.:47:31.
:47:31.:47:59.

straight defeats in two decades, go Pretty wild night out there, heavy

:47:59.:48:02.

rain and strong winds sweeping across the country. That should

:48:02.:48:06.

have gone by morning. Things settling down. Sunshine for many of

:48:06.:48:09.

us. It will be chilly and the showers across the north will be

:48:09.:48:12.

wintry. Up over the high ground. Further south relatively few

:48:12.:48:16.

showers, one or two getting down through the Midlands. Temperatures

:48:17.:48:21.

struggling a bit until recently. In the breeze it will be cool. A

:48:22.:48:25.

lot of dry weather across southern England. A few showers getting into

:48:25.:48:29.

the south west, by the end of the afternoon. They will have moved in

:48:29.:48:35.

a band through Wales, with sunshine returning afterwards. 10 degrees,

:48:35.:48:39.

fresh, with the wind coming off the sea. Positively chilly further

:48:39.:48:41.

north. For Northern Ireland sixes and sevens will be typical. Still

:48:41.:48:45.

showers to come. Up towards the north coast, a wintry scene across

:48:45.:48:50.

the Highlands of Scotland. Snowfall down to low level, gusty winds,

:48:50.:48:54.

temperatures round about 5-7. Across northern parts of the UK, it

:48:54.:48:57.

stays pretty disturbed into the weekend, rain clouds gathering

:48:57.:49:01.

again. The wind picking up, a stormy spell across the far north

:49:01.:49:04.

into Saturday night. Further south it will be dryer, the winds won't

:49:04.:49:10.

be so strong. Generally not a bad weekend coming up in store. Dry,

:49:10.:49:14.

bright weather, temperatures still not too bad. The rest of the

:49:14.:49:18.

Newsnight examines the jobs market crunch, as net migration peaks and youth unemployment surges. And why is the world's best-paid footballer in possibly the most dangerous place in Europe?


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS