14/12/2011 Newsnight


14/12/2011

With Jeremy Paxman. Who is telling the truth in the latest tabloid phone hacking row? And why Labour should be doing better in the polls.


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Transcript


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Tonight, who knew what and when, in the phone hacking scandal.

:00:10.:00:15.

Could James Murdoch really have been unaware? Why did the Guardian

:00:15.:00:21.

claim the News of the World deleted voice messages when they had no

:00:21.:00:23.

evidence. The author of the Guardian investigation faces a

:00:23.:00:27.

former News of the World executive and the television presenter, Anne

:00:27.:00:32.

Diamond, tell us what it is like to be pursued by the tabloids. Will

:00:32.:00:36.

the coalition split over Europe and the economy stalling, you think

:00:36.:00:40.

these might be good times to be an opposition leader, so how can the

:00:40.:00:44.

Prime Minister get away with shots like this. We all know he has

:00:44.:00:49.

achieved one thing e has completely united his party. Every single one

:00:49.:00:55.

of them has asked Santa for one thing, a new leader for Christmas.

:00:55.:01:00.

Is the tide going out on Ed Milliband? Nearly nine years after

:01:00.:01:04.

the invasion of Iraq, President Obama calls a symbolic end to

:01:04.:01:08.

American combat forces there. How big a power is the United States in

:01:08.:01:17.

the 21st century world? Lord Leveson, the man charged with

:01:17.:01:21.

the public washing of much of the newspaper industry's dirty laundry,

:01:21.:01:26.

asked the police today, to find out once and for all f they can, how

:01:26.:01:29.

voice mails on Milly Dowler's phone came to be wiped. It was the

:01:29.:01:33.

Guardian newspaper's claim, stated as fact, that they had been erased

:01:33.:01:35.

by the News of the World, which triggered the shutdown of what was

:01:36.:01:39.

once the biggest-selling paper in the English speaking world. But the

:01:39.:01:43.

story wasn't true, or the hacking was true, the deleting was just

:01:44.:01:47.

theory. The last editor of the News of the World was up at the Leveson

:01:47.:01:50.

Inquiry to take his punishment today. We report now on where we

:01:50.:01:58.

are. The most far-reaching inquiry into

:01:58.:02:04.

the ethics of the press, led by the most senior judge in the land.

:02:04.:02:09.

Featuring witnesses drawn from the world of celebrity. From the News

:02:09.:02:16.

of the World itself. A newspaper brought down by the work of one

:02:16.:02:19.

Manchester solicitor, who revealed how a murdered schoolgirl's phone

:02:19.:02:23.

had been hacked. When the Guardian newspaper

:02:23.:02:27.

revealed in July that News of the World had hacked Milly Dowler's

:02:27.:02:30.

phone and voice mail messages had been deleted. The wave of public

:02:30.:02:33.

revulsion was such that the paper was forced to close. The Guardian

:02:34.:02:36.

had suggested a News of the World had deleted messages to create room

:02:36.:02:41.

for new ones, which would then form the basis for stories for News of

:02:41.:02:44.

the World. But that allegation is now at the centre of a huge media

:02:44.:02:52.

row. The fact that News of the World

:02:52.:02:55.

hacked Milly Dowler's phone is not in dispute. Newsnight has fresh

:02:55.:02:59.

evidence of this. In April 2002, News of the World was in contact

:02:59.:03:02.

with Surrey Police, leading the investigation into her

:03:03.:03:07.

disappearance. The paper thought a voice mail message left be by a

:03:07.:03:10.

recruitment agency meant she was alive and had run away from home.

:03:11.:03:15.

On the 20th of April, a senior News of the World executive wrote to

:03:15.:03:25.
:03:25.:03:34.

They had Milly Dowler's PIN code, and were listening to her phone

:03:34.:03:38.

messages during a live police investigation. How tragic that

:03:38.:03:44.

someone, who has not courted the news, but in the news because they

:03:44.:03:47.

happened to be a murdered schoolgirl, the News of the World

:03:47.:03:50.

were hacking a murdered schoolgirl's phone. What about the

:03:50.:03:54.

allegation that the paper had deleted messages. Immediately after

:03:54.:04:01.

her disappearance on the 21st of March, 2002, Milly Dowler's parents

:04:01.:04:07.

phoned her but could leave no message because her messages were

:04:07.:04:12.

fun. But three days later Sally Dowlre got through. I phoned her

:04:12.:04:16.

and it clicked through so I heard her voice. I thought she's picked

:04:16.:04:26.

up her voice mails, she's alive, it was then, really. All of Milly's

:04:26.:04:30.

messages had been deleted, but in a recent statement to the Leveson

:04:30.:04:33.

Inquiry, the Metropolitan Police said it was most likely they were

:04:33.:04:37.

deleted automatically by her phone company. But the Dowlre's lawyer

:04:37.:04:43.

denies this means the Guardian got it fundamentally wrong. We know the

:04:43.:04:48.

News of the World had Milly Dowler's phone number. We know he

:04:48.:04:53.

had the pin number and hacked messages. We know hacking messages

:04:53.:04:57.

can delete messages, we don't know if he deleted the particular

:04:57.:05:01.

messages that gave false hope. Metropolitan Police say they

:05:01.:05:05.

probably didn't? That hasn't been proved. Last night as we were

:05:05.:05:10.

filming Mark Lewis, he received a call from the Mail, asking if the

:05:10.:05:13.

Dowler's should pay back money received from News International.

:05:13.:05:17.

The question was sick, it actually was depraved, it was something I

:05:17.:05:22.

told him he ought to be ashamed of himself. This morning, the Mail's

:05:22.:05:25.

approach was raised at the Leveson's inquiry. Lord Justice

:05:26.:05:30.

Leveson indicated that the facts surrounding the deletions must, if

:05:30.:05:34.

possible, be revealed. I do entirely understand the

:05:34.:05:42.

significance of the issue. I recognise that it is likely to be

:05:42.:05:52.
:05:52.:05:56.

in the public interest that this be Another important outstanding

:05:56.:06:00.

question is what, if anything, did James Murdoch know about the wider

:06:00.:06:04.

culture of phone hacking at News of the World? He's consistently told

:06:04.:06:09.

parliament that his understanding was it was limited to one rogue

:06:09.:06:13.

reporter, the former royal correspondent, Clive Goodman.

:06:13.:06:18.

News of the World's former legal manager, Tom Crone, said he showed

:06:18.:06:23.

James Murdoch an e-mail in 2008, that confirmed another journalist

:06:23.:06:27.

was involved. I'm pretty sure I held up the front page of the e-

:06:27.:06:32.

mail. I'm also pretty sure he already knew about it. And News

:06:32.:06:35.

International has just admitted that James Murdoch was sent a

:06:35.:06:39.

different e-mail in 2008, saying the situation was as bad as we

:06:39.:06:44.

feared, and someone suing the company was intent on showing that

:06:44.:06:48.

hacking was rife. Mr Murdoch says he responded in minutes without

:06:48.:06:58.
:06:58.:06:59.

It was a specific criminal act, the hacking of phones, that sparked the

:06:59.:07:04.

Leveson Inquiry, but it has been the lurid tales of unethical

:07:04.:07:07.

journalistic practice had a has been even more shocking. The use of

:07:07.:07:11.

deception and invasion of privacy, is often justified on grounds of

:07:11.:07:14.

public interest, where there is a bigger truth to be told. But some

:07:14.:07:17.

of the evidence to the Leveson Inquiry has stretched the concept

:07:17.:07:22.

of the public interest, way beyond breaking point.

:07:22.:07:25.

Take Newsnight's story about News of the World putting the family of

:07:25.:07:29.

lawyers investigating them for phone hacking under surveillance.

:07:29.:07:34.

News International now admits that was completely unethical.

:07:34.:07:39.

Take investigations into Charlotte Church's father, headlined

:07:39.:07:48.

"Church's three in a bed cocaine shot" with her picture beside it.

:07:48.:07:52.

Miss Church said her mother tried to kill herself. My parents who had

:07:52.:07:56.

never been in the industry, apart from looking after me, were being

:07:56.:07:59.

exposed and vilified in this fashion. Take the fact they paid

:07:59.:08:08.

for details of her sex life, as a teenager. Why is it OK that an

:08:08.:08:16.

editor or somebody senior in a newspaper could pay an unemployed

:08:16.:08:23.

boy from Cardiff tens of thousands of pounds to reveal intimate sexual

:08:23.:08:26.

details about another 17-year-old girl. This is not public interest

:08:26.:08:31.

journalism as we know it? There was lots of public interest journalism,

:08:31.:08:36.

every story we did had to abide by the PCC code. I was in features for

:08:36.:08:39.

eight years and never had a PCC investigation over it. We looked

:08:39.:08:44.

deeply at every story we did. Yes, there was salacious, celebrity-

:08:44.:08:49.

driven content, but often with a public interest.

:08:49.:08:54.

There were high points, for sure, cricket match-fixing and cash for

:08:55.:09:00.

honours, but the Leveson Inquiry has produced shocking evidence of

:09:00.:09:06.

deeply unethical practices with little or no public interest at all.

:09:06.:09:09.

Anne Diamond and Lord Hunt chair of the Press Complaints Commission

:09:09.:09:14.

will be talking soon. First we speak to the former head of

:09:14.:09:19.

features at News of the World, and Nick Davies who wrote the original

:09:19.:09:24.

Gardiner article about Milly Dowler's phone -- Guardian article

:09:24.:09:30.

about Milly Dowler's phone. Because Mr Davies doesn't want to appear on

:09:30.:09:37.

the same panel and Mr Casby didn't want to join us, he declined the

:09:37.:09:41.

offer of a one-to-one interview. Let's cut to the chase, the central

:09:41.:09:46.

allegation, the most scandalous of the lot, that a murdered girl's

:09:46.:09:49.

voice mails were deleted by the News of the World, which you

:09:49.:09:53.

claimed to be fact, it wasn't a fact? You are getting it all wrong

:09:53.:09:58.

here. The story that we published in July was squarely based on all

:09:58.:10:02.

of the evidence available, and was correct in saying that her voice

:10:02.:10:07.

mail had been deleted, and it remains the case, that News

:10:07.:10:10.

International are not denying that News of the World journalists may

:10:10.:10:14.

have been responsible for those deletions. Let's put it up on the

:10:14.:10:18.

wall. You are missing the point. The audience can judge for

:10:18.:10:22.

themselves. Let's look at the front page. News of the World hacking

:10:22.:10:26.

Milly Dowler's phone during police hunt. Then it is "paper deleted

:10:27.:10:31.

missing schoolgirl's voice mails giving the family false hope", you

:10:31.:10:35.

say the messages were deleted by journalists in the first few days

:10:35.:10:38.

after Milly's disappearance. You don't know that. You are getting

:10:38.:10:43.

the problem slightly wrong, you have misunderstood it. The problem

:10:43.:10:45.

was whether or not they were responsible for deleting the

:10:45.:10:48.

particular messages that caused the friends and family to have false

:10:48.:10:51.

hope. That is now in doubt. If you just follow what is going through

:10:51.:10:56.

here I will explain. Do you know for a fact what you state as a fact

:10:56.:11:01.

in this article? Everybody who was involved in that story accepted it

:11:01.:11:04.

was true. It is very interesting that when that story was

:11:04.:11:08.

published...you are not allowing me to answer. No I'm not, you are not

:11:08.:11:12.

answering. You have asked the wrong question, you see. I'm so sorry.

:11:12.:11:19.

You have misunderstood the problem. I want to answer it. Was it true?

:11:19.:11:22.

That story was, everybody involved with that story believed it was

:11:22.:11:26.

true. The day after I published that story I sat down for two hours

:11:26.:11:30.

with Glenn Mulcaire, the private investigator at the centre of this

:11:31.:11:35.

thing. He issued an apology, he didn't disagrow with a single word,

:11:35.:11:44.

News International didn't deny it. You stated it as a fact rather than

:11:44.:11:47.

a police belief? Everybody involved in that story accepted that story

:11:47.:11:51.

was true, and continued to accept it, until, four months later, new

:11:51.:11:55.

evidence that was not available to everybody's surprise, showed that

:11:55.:11:59.

one element of that story is now in doubt. It has not been proved to be

:11:59.:12:03.

true. It is a key element. Just like Mark Lewis said, it is in

:12:03.:12:07.

doubt. You don't report it as a belief, you report it as a fact?

:12:07.:12:10.

And everybody accepted that it was true. The police accepted it in

:12:10.:12:16.

London and in Surrey, Mulcaire, the private investigator, News

:12:16.:12:21.

International. It had the same level of certainty. It clearly

:12:21.:12:25.

wasn't a fact, you have just conceded it wasn't a fact, you said

:12:25.:12:28.

people thought it was true? They accepted it was true, nobody

:12:28.:12:34.

dissented from it. New evidence, not available at that time. In

:12:34.:12:38.

retrospect it is now in doubt. They are not saying it isn't true. You

:12:38.:12:41.

are still getting it wrong. They are saying it is conceivable but

:12:41.:12:48.

unlikely that the News of the World was responsible for that particular

:12:48.:12:54.

deletion. It was an allegation he repeated 34 times as well. This

:12:54.:12:58.

wasn't any old story, this was the story that was the most important

:12:58.:13:02.

story in the Guardian's history. It was vital every single element of

:13:02.:13:06.

it should be right. Let's get things in proportion, your

:13:06.:13:12.

newspaper had hacked a murdered girl's telephone? I'm not here, I

:13:12.:13:15.

don't believe the News of the World has been exonerated. What we did

:13:15.:13:20.

was indefensible, not just to Milly, but all the victims of hacking, I'm

:13:20.:13:24.

not here to justify that, I'm here to attack the shoddy journalism of

:13:24.:13:30.

the Gardiner and Nick. He said it was -- of the Guardian and nick. He

:13:30.:13:37.

said it was believed by everyone to be true, there was a statement by

:13:37.:13:40.

News International at the end saying we are looking into it. They

:13:40.:13:43.

were a rabbit caught in headlights, they had been caught out misleading

:13:43.:13:49.

people with the one rogue reporter theory, we weren't going to make

:13:49.:13:53.

that mistake again. They weren't confirming anything to anyone.

:13:53.:13:57.

you think they should have been closed down? I'm not here to defend

:13:57.:14:02.

the News of the World, I'm here to atact Nick's journalism, it is not

:14:02.:14:06.

just down to this story. Just a week later after this sensational

:14:06.:14:12.

claim, he claims, in a front page story again, that the Sun hacked

:14:12.:14:18.

into Gordon Brown's medical records to reveal his son's cystic fibrosis.

:14:18.:14:21.

The Gardiner did apologise for that story. That could have had the same

:14:21.:14:27.

effect on the Sun that Milly had on the News of the World. This man

:14:27.:14:31.

accused widespread criminality at your newspaper, he should be

:14:31.:14:39.

applauded for that? There is parts of the Guardian investigation that

:14:39.:14:43.

is great, but the other media, which has treated what the Guardian

:14:43.:14:49.

has said as fact, for the last five months, it is only now that that

:14:49.:14:54.

the Guardian's journalism is coming under scrutiny. A lot was fact?

:14:54.:14:58.

lot was fact, but there was significant smears and untruths.

:14:58.:15:02.

have published more than a hundred stories revealing immoral, criminal

:15:02.:15:06.

behaviour by the newspaper where you worked for 15 years. Just look,

:15:06.:15:09.

for example, at the Gordon Brown story which you have just raised.

:15:09.:15:13.

Gordon Brown's wife Sarah gave birth to a child, the doctors said

:15:13.:15:17.

this child appears to have a very serious illness wrecks need more

:15:17.:15:21.

tests. During that period when they were waiting to confirm it, the

:15:21.:15:24.

Sun's discovered the confidential information about this sick boy.

:15:24.:15:29.

Any decent newspaper would say we can't publish this, that newspaper

:15:29.:15:32.

chose to. That put enormous stress on those parents. I have

:15:32.:15:35.

interviewed Gordon Brown on the record. He says when the Sun

:15:35.:15:41.

decided to publish that information, he and Sarah Brown were in tears.

:15:41.:15:45.

Subsequently we published a story about it, we didn't say the Sun

:15:45.:15:52.

obtained that Bihacing, you have just made that up. Let me finish.

:15:52.:15:54.

The Sun gained access to confidential medical information,

:15:54.:15:59.

at one point in the story I used a different term of words, I said

:15:59.:16:02.

"gained access to confidential medical records", I couldn't prove

:16:02.:16:07.

they got to the file. This is the difference. The Guardian corrected

:16:07.:16:11.

and apologised that. When did the Sun apologiseor doing that cruel

:16:11.:16:17.

and inhumane thing to those parents whose sick child will grow up and

:16:17.:16:22.

discover all these horrible stories about his past. I'm not here to

:16:22.:16:26.

defend the ethics of the Sun and the News of the World, I'm here to

:16:26.:16:31.

take the shoddy journalism of the Guardian. You have misrepresented

:16:31.:16:35.

what we said in the Gordon Brown story, it is a matter of wording.

:16:35.:16:40.

On the Gordon Brown story. don't you apologiseor it. You have

:16:40.:16:44.

never apologised for the terrible things. Words matter. We have

:16:44.:16:50.

apologised for it on this show, and every senior executive has

:16:50.:16:54.

apologised, Rupert Murdoch said it was the most humble day of his life.

:16:54.:17:01.

Where is your humility in this. have huge humility, I'm not saying

:17:01.:17:05.

we are exonerated in any way. are in a heap of trouble, for years

:17:05.:17:11.

you have taken Murdoch's money and invaded and ruined people's lives,

:17:11.:17:14.

and engaged in criminal activity. You have had private investigators

:17:14.:17:18.

who have broken the law, haven't you, would you like a list of the

:17:18.:17:22.

people. Let's go through the lists of the hundreds of Observer

:17:22.:17:26.

journalists that made requests. hired a private investigator who

:17:26.:17:30.

was doing illegal things to get information, isn't that true. Why

:17:30.:17:35.

won't you admit the truth, isn't it time for some humility. Didn't you

:17:35.:17:39.

hire a private investigator. the Observer journalist doss it,

:17:39.:17:44.

and the current Guardian journalists. You accuse me of

:17:44.:17:48.

shoddy journalism, and your name is all over of a private investigator

:17:48.:17:52.

convicted of using illegal means, information about Anne Robinson,

:17:52.:18:00.

about John Penros and Anna Friel. Let's name some of the Garden

:18:00.:18:04.

journalists. I want to broaden this and move it on. Anne Diamond you

:18:04.:18:08.

have personal experience of being on the receiving end of this sort

:18:08.:18:12.

of attention from the tabloid press. You had a personal tragedy with

:18:12.:18:18.

your child. Tell us what happened? I must say I just find it

:18:18.:18:21.

unbelievable that anyone from the News of the World can sit there and

:18:21.:18:24.

be outraipbled that somebody might have got a fact wrong, that

:18:24.:18:28.

somebody might have misrepresented them in some way, that someone

:18:28.:18:32.

might not have apologised fully. That is incredible to hear. Now you

:18:32.:18:37.

now what it feels like. My particular story then, according to

:18:37.:18:41.

Rupert Murdoch's butler, I was targeted by News International in a

:18:41.:18:45.

very early stage, because I took Rupert Murdoch to task for the

:18:45.:18:50.

behaviour for some of his newspapers. It came to a head when

:18:50.:18:56.

1991 my little boy died. We knew, my husband and I knew that we knew

:18:56.:19:01.

the level of press interest there would be. Mindful of the fact that

:19:01.:19:06.

Eric Clapton son's had died a year before, and the funeral had become

:19:06.:19:12.

a press circus. Newspaper photographers and reporters were

:19:12.:19:17.

falling over other people's gravestones and trampling flowers

:19:17.:19:23.

to get a picture of Eric and his girlfriend at the funeral. We wrote

:19:23.:19:27.

to every Fleet Street editor and said please stay away, this is an

:19:27.:19:31.

incredibly private moment. A photographer did turn up. Within a

:19:31.:19:37.

couple of hours of the funeral, my husband was rung by the editor of

:19:37.:19:41.

the Sun, and they said we have a photograph, it is incredibly strong

:19:41.:19:44.

we want to use it. My husband begged them not to use it. They ran

:19:44.:19:50.

it all over the front page the next day. What has gone wrong in the

:19:50.:19:53.

culture of the media in this country? It is partially

:19:53.:19:58.

commercially run riot, to sell papers, it is partly this deeply

:19:59.:20:01.

self-perceived culture in the paper that everything we do is right, we

:20:01.:20:05.

are above the law. It doesn't matter if the High Courts say it is

:20:05.:20:12.

a grotesque invasion of Max Mosley's privacy. They have set the

:20:12.:20:16.

agenda for themselves for so many years, we live in a press world now

:20:16.:20:21.

where the climate, the values have been distorted by the worst

:20:21.:20:27.

journalists there. I'm a journalist myself, I'm a print journalist by

:20:27.:20:29.

training, I'm ashamed of the some of the things they have done. They

:20:29.:20:33.

have been allowed so long it has set the climate. How can you live

:20:34.:20:38.

in it? I won't justify what happened to Anne. I'm as moved and

:20:38.:20:42.

upset by what she's saying as anyone else. It happened 20 years

:20:42.:20:47.

ago. This is one thing t happened over a long period. I am not alone.

:20:47.:20:52.

You are the features editor of the News of the World, how does it

:20:52.:20:56.

feel? There is lots of fantastic public interest journalism we did.

:20:56.:21:00.

Nobody disputes that? Things went wrong. I'm not here to justify what

:21:00.:21:06.

happened to Anne 20 years ago at the hands of the Sun under a

:21:06.:21:09.

completely previous regime. And the News of the World, not just the Sun

:21:09.:21:13.

or the News of the World. It was a culture you guys were allowed to

:21:13.:21:19.

set. What was it went wrong? People made mistakes, there is no doubt

:21:19.:21:28.

about it. This was industrial scale phone hacking? I'm not here to

:21:28.:21:30.

justify that, I don't think the News of the World has been

:21:30.:21:34.

exonerated. I think, you can justify the closure of the paper,

:21:34.:21:38.

even. I'm not here to do that. I was here to talk about the Guardian

:21:38.:21:42.

getting things wrong and the Guardian misrepresenting. Now you

:21:42.:21:46.

know how it feels. Just a little tiny glimmer, that is all you are

:21:46.:21:49.

getting of what you have put other people through for many, many years,

:21:49.:21:52.

now you know how it feels. It feels a sense of moral outrage. That is

:21:52.:21:56.

what I see from you today. And that's what so many people have

:21:56.:22:01.

felt for so long. You are still playing the same tabloid distortion

:22:01.:22:07.

game. We publish more than 100 stories, confirmed in evidence by

:22:07.:22:10.

police and inquiries and in civil actions and you pick on two error,

:22:10.:22:14.

one of them very significant in the Milly Dowler story, one of them

:22:14.:22:17.

really minor in the Gordon Brown story, and you distort the truth

:22:17.:22:22.

and try to pretend that means we are guilty of shoddy journalism.

:22:22.:22:27.

least you are accepting the errors. The distortion is wrong. Take a

:22:27.:22:32.

leaf out of Rupert Murdoch's book and get humble, or go quiet, people

:22:32.:22:35.

don't believe you any more. We will not be bullied by people like you

:22:35.:22:40.

any more, we have had enough of you. You have just taken over as head of

:22:40.:22:43.

the Press Complaints Commission, it is a hopeless task, isn't it?

:22:43.:22:49.

of all, you have to recognise that the press is not being regulated.

:22:49.:22:53.

The body I have inherited, the Press Complaints Commission has no

:22:53.:22:58.

regulatory powers at all. I come in as a lawyer, specialising in

:22:58.:23:02.

regulation, everyone I say this to agrees. So we don't have a system

:23:02.:23:06.

at the moment. I have resolved that we will now have a system and it is

:23:06.:23:12.

up to me to put it forward. How are you going to do it? First

:23:12.:23:17.

of all, listening to the tragic stories, coming out of not just

:23:17.:23:21.

Lord Justice Leveson. You haven't got teeth? Listening to the tragic

:23:21.:23:25.

stories, like the ones we have just heard, and acknowledging, as I

:23:25.:23:28.

think, all of us would, that we are proud of the freedom of the press

:23:28.:23:34.

in this country. We are proud of investigative journalism, Anne

:23:34.:23:38.

knows that a number of stories came in behind causes that she was

:23:38.:23:41.

pushing. So we have to preserve that. But we have to have some

:23:41.:23:45.

regulation, we have to have some standards. That is going to be my

:23:45.:23:50.

job, to find a way of persuading people, not just in parliament, not

:23:50.:23:56.

just in the press but the public, that we can have a system of self-

:23:56.:24:01.

regulation of the press. Do you believe in self-regulation? No, I

:24:01.:24:04.

don't. All the years I have spent, when I went into broadcast

:24:04.:24:08.

journalism in the end. I used to think why is there one set of rules

:24:08.:24:12.

for the press and another set of rules entirely for broadcast

:24:12.:24:17.

journalists. Broadcast journalists are still able to do fantastic

:24:17.:24:19.

investigative journalism, wonderful campaigning, the standard of

:24:19.:24:25.

journalism is still very high in the BBC and elsewhere. Are you in

:24:25.:24:29.

favour of a Ofcom for newspapers? think so, for the press. The power

:24:29.:24:33.

to fine the stories? The popular press have nothing to fear from

:24:33.:24:37.

this. They need to embrace it. We could all pull up the standards of

:24:37.:24:41.

the popular press in this country. Not through statute, I don't like

:24:41.:24:45.

the idea of putting the press in the hands of the politicians.

:24:45.:24:49.

have had 20-odd years of self- regulation, and it hasn't worked.

:24:49.:24:53.

We had the press council before that, that didn't work either.

:24:53.:24:56.

don't think we have ever had proper regulatory control, even from

:24:56.:25:01.

within the press, or even from independent sources. Do you worry

:25:01.:25:05.

about what some of the consequences may be. The consequences for

:25:05.:25:09.

investigative journalism for a free press? There has been some nasty

:25:09.:25:12.

backlash and bad ideas put about. There has been a crackdown within

:25:12.:25:16.

police forces to try to stop any kind of unauthorised contact

:25:16.:25:18.

between police officers and journalists. That is a very, very

:25:18.:25:21.

bad move. I don't want to live in a world where the only information we

:25:21.:25:25.

can get out of a police force or Government department is what is

:25:25.:25:28.

authorised by the boss. That is the kind of information tyranny that

:25:28.:25:32.

you create. Unauthorised contact is central to the free press. So there

:25:32.:25:37.

are nasty bits of backlash going on. That is not to deny the problem. I

:25:37.:25:40.

have stopped believing in the self- regulation of the press.

:25:40.:25:43.

Principally because of the grotesque failure of the PCC over

:25:43.:25:47.

the phone hacking scandal. Twice they produced report, my editor

:25:47.:25:55.

described them as "worse than useless" that was kind. There was a

:25:55.:25:59.

structural failure in there. This is not a bunch of starchy nannies

:25:59.:26:03.

sitting around in Holland Park eating digestive biscuits and

:26:03.:26:08.

hoping they are obeying the rules, this is a deeply competitive

:26:08.:26:10.

industry, routinely breaking the law and stabbing each other's backs

:26:10.:26:14.

in order to sell newspapers. You are not interested in being

:26:14.:26:20.

regulated are you. Let's pause for a moment, you condemn the PCC, many

:26:20.:26:25.

people have, and have said it many times. I look at the PCC and say to

:26:25.:26:28.

myself what regulatory powers does it have. What powers of

:26:28.:26:34.

investigation? The answer is none. In a way the PCC is being judged by

:26:34.:26:40.

powers that it never had. I have got to work out how we can have

:26:40.:26:45.

shows powers, within an independent, self-regulatory system, that is

:26:45.:26:50.

what I have set my task to do. investigation and enforcement,

:26:50.:26:54.

there are two different problems to get to the truth and enforce.

:26:54.:26:58.

reconvene this later. It is a truth universally

:26:58.:27:02.

acknowledged that the weekly Punch and Judy show in Westminster has

:27:02.:27:07.

taken a lot more seriously by the political masters than normal human

:27:07.:27:09.

beings. How they perform at Prime Minister's Questions, and it was

:27:09.:27:12.

the last of the year today, can determine whether a party leader

:27:12.:27:16.

lives or dies. Today, given what he obviously thought was a golden

:27:16.:27:19.

opportunity, Ed Milliband was left looking like a man who chooses his

:27:19.:27:24.

best suit and tie for a job interview, and then enters the room

:27:24.:27:31.

realising he has forgotten to put his trousers on.

:27:31.:27:35.

Hi everybody. Hi daddy. Apparently when Ed Milliband goes to the

:27:35.:27:41.

United States, he gets mistaken for this chap, star of the hit HBO

:27:41.:27:46.

comedy, Everbody Loves Raymond. And, well, you can kind of see why.

:27:46.:27:52.

was your day? There was, though, no mistakes Mr Miliband for a comedian

:27:52.:27:55.

today. His attempted gag ended up coming right back at him.

:27:55.:28:01.

Let me say, it is good to see the Deputy Prime Minister back among us.

:28:01.:28:04.

The Labour leader might have thought he had some promising

:28:04.:28:08.

material to work with, after the row between the PM and his deputy

:28:08.:28:16.

over the EU veto. Calm down, calm down. This is what he said, this is

:28:16.:28:21.

what he said in his new year's message for 2011, I will place a

:28:21.:28:24.

copy in the library of the House, Mr Speaker, just so everyone can

:28:24.:28:29.

see it. This is what he said, "coalition politics is not always

:28:29.:28:35.

straight forward, but I believe we are bringing in a whole new style

:28:35.:28:45.
:28:45.:28:47.

of Government ". Mr Speaker there is more, there is more. "a more

:28:47.:28:51.

collegiate approach", Mr Speaker, I'm bound to ask, what has gone

:28:51.:28:57.

wrong. I will answer. I will answer. Look,

:28:57.:29:02.

look, no-one in this House is going to be surprised that Conservatives

:29:02.:29:07.

and Liberal Democrats don't always agree about Europe. But let me

:29:07.:29:12.

reassure him, he shouldn't believe everything he reads in the papers.

:29:12.:29:17.

No, it is not that bad, I mean it is not like we're brothers or

:29:17.:29:27.
:29:27.:29:38.

anything! More. More. He certainly walked into that one.

:29:38.:29:44.

Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker, ...The Labour leader did the best to

:29:44.:29:48.

recover, but you could see the pain all over the faces on the Labour

:29:48.:29:52.

benches. Of course anyone can have a bad

:29:52.:29:56.

PMQs, but the worry concerning Labour MPs as they head towards the

:29:56.:30:00.

Christmas holiday is this. With the economy flatlining, the

:30:00.:30:03.

Government's deficit reduction programme not working, and public

:30:03.:30:08.

splits in the coalition that you could comfortably drive a bus

:30:08.:30:13.

through, why on earth aren't we doing a whole lot better. Dan

:30:13.:30:17.

Hodges used to be an adviser to the Labour Party. Today's PMQ was bad

:30:17.:30:21.

for Ed Milliband, but the key turning point was the Autumn

:30:21.:30:23.

Statement. Labour MPs were hoping and praying that would be the

:30:23.:30:27.

moment where the public rumbled what they see as the George Osborne

:30:27.:30:33.

failed economic strategy, and start to embrace Labour's, the reverse is

:30:33.:30:38.

the case. The Tories are increased their lead in terms of economic

:30:38.:30:41.

competence, and eradicated Labour's opinion poll lead. That is the

:30:42.:30:45.

thing that is really now terrifying Labour MPs. What they are saying,

:30:45.:30:48.

is we can't beat the Tories and get a significant lead over the Tories

:30:48.:30:53.

now, with this cascade of bad news, how are we going to do it in two or

:30:53.:30:58.

three years time when the economy, even sluggishly starting to improve.

:30:58.:31:03.

Indeed the polls at the moment are no joke for Ray's British lookalike,

:31:03.:31:08.

everybody, it seems, does not love Ed. When compared with other

:31:08.:31:12.

leaders of the opposition, Ed Milliband's net approval rating is

:31:12.:31:18.

worse than David Cameron or Tony Blair's were at at this point. Only

:31:18.:31:21.

Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard, and William Hague did worse, and

:31:21.:31:26.

they never made it to Number Ten. When you look at how his polling

:31:26.:31:32.

splits up, it is clear what happens. A large number of the "don't knows"

:31:33.:31:38.

at the start of the Miliband leadership has disappeared, but

:31:38.:31:42.

they have decided they don't like him. What sort of qualities do the

:31:42.:31:46.

public see as Ed Milliband possessing or not possessing?

:31:46.:31:50.

one area where he still scores reasonably well is being regarded

:31:50.:31:55.

in touch with ordinary people, not too bad on honesty. Where his

:31:55.:31:59.

ratings really fall down are things like being strong, decisive, good

:31:59.:32:04.

in a crisis, a the natural qualities of a leader. Those

:32:04.:32:08.

figures are really very low. It is very hard to win an election in

:32:08.:32:13.

opposition with a leader with those kinds of scores.

:32:14.:32:19.

That is what I was going to say. too. I'm sorry. Maybe the Labour

:32:19.:32:24.

leader should take some solace from regime mond, he may get in a few

:32:24.:32:30.

scrapes but he -- Raymond, but he may get into a couple of scrapes

:32:30.:32:35.

but he usual comes good in the end. Hilary Benn is with us. Do you

:32:35.:32:40.

think he's doing a good job? I do. Why isn't he more popular? Look we

:32:40.:32:45.

had our second worst election defeat in 2010. If you reflect on

:32:46.:32:51.

what's happened since then, we have 65,000 more members, 850 more

:32:51.:32:54.

councillors. We have won four by- elections, but it is a long haul.

:32:54.:32:57.

Why not polling better than the Conservatives, unemployment is

:32:57.:33:01.

rising, the economic strategy is not working, the Prime Minister has

:33:01.:33:04.

delivered something the Deputy Prime Minister has said is bad for

:33:04.:33:07.

Britain? Most of the years you know we have been ahead in the polls.

:33:08.:33:11.

You are not now? No, and there may be a short-term effect from what

:33:11.:33:14.

happened last week. In the end it is the character of leaders that

:33:14.:33:20.

will win out. And David Cameron's problem is that he his economic

:33:21.:33:24.

policy is not working, as is now evident, and the British public are

:33:24.:33:28.

beginning to see that, but it will take time for the full failure of

:33:28.:33:33.

that to become clear. Let's discuss David Cameron's problems with unof

:33:33.:33:36.

his friends, you are Ed Milliband's friend and I want to talk about his

:33:36.:33:39.

problems with you. How is it that a third of Labour voters are

:33:39.:33:43.

dissatisfied with his performance? Look, the country is going through

:33:43.:33:48.

a tough time. We lost an election. What happened in the past is bound

:33:48.:33:54.

to be reflected in part, in how people perceive Labour now. But,

:33:54.:33:59.

really important questions are, who is thinking about the future of the

:33:59.:34:06.

country. So you assert...I'm Reflecting on the riveting item on

:34:06.:34:09.

the programme there. Who demonstrated courage in the course

:34:09.:34:12.

of the year in taking on News International, breaking with the

:34:12.:34:15.

politic consensus there for a very long time, it was Ed Milliband, and

:34:15.:34:19.

David Cameron was left following in his wake. You must acknowledge that.

:34:19.:34:23.

In the interests of clarity, can you tell us what your position is

:34:23.:34:27.

then on David Cameron's wielding of the veto in Brussels the other

:34:27.:34:31.

night? Well it wasn't a veto was it. I will tell you what our position

:34:31.:34:35.

is, a veto is intended to stop something happening. You would have

:34:35.:34:40.

signed the pact would you? there wasn't a treaty. Is there a

:34:40.:34:43.

treaty, I don't know if Newsnight has hold of a copy of the treaty.

:34:43.:34:46.

The right thing for the Prime Minister to have done would be to

:34:46.:34:49.

stay in the room, make sure British interests are protected and the

:34:49.:34:53.

truth is, he has walked away. These negotiations will continue and

:34:53.:34:56.

Britain will not be there. We have handed over, actually, power to the

:34:56.:35:00.

French and Germans, that is a reflection of his weak negotiating

:35:00.:35:06.

position and the fact he's derfied of his backbenchers. If --

:35:06.:35:11.

Terrified of his backbenchers. your leader was Prime Minister,

:35:11.:35:15.

what would we have agreed to? would have put in the work before

:35:15.:35:18.

the negotiations, there is no good in turning up as the Prime Minister

:35:18.:35:21.

and throwing down some demands and saying if you don't agree I'm off.

:35:21.:35:24.

We should be there trying to protect British interests. Would

:35:24.:35:28.

you have agreed to the treaty changes or not? There isn't a

:35:28.:35:33.

treaty in place, there isn't even a draft treaty, is there. If Britain

:35:33.:35:37.

had agreed it, there would have been a draft treaty? There is not a

:35:38.:35:41.

draft treaty. Clearly there isn't now? Now they will have to

:35:41.:35:45.

negotiate it. This will happen over the next few months. That is a

:35:45.:35:49.

position Ed Milliband would have put us in? We need to be there to

:35:49.:35:54.

protect British interests, no party leader will agree to anything not

:35:54.:35:57.

in the British interests. By absenting himself he has put

:35:57.:36:01.

Britain in a difficult and dangerous position. Your's is a

:36:01.:36:06.

kind of in and out position, the hokey cokey approach? It is not, it

:36:06.:36:09.

is about defending the national interest, but making sure we are

:36:09.:36:13.

there at the table. You cannot do that if you are not part of the

:36:13.:36:17.

negotiation. Isn't the truth that the only thing we know about Ed

:36:17.:36:20.

Milliband is his struggle with his brother, that is why David

:36:20.:36:26.

Cameron's joke worked so well? microclimate of Westminster people

:36:26.:36:29.

can laugh at Prime Minister's Questions. It is the only thing

:36:29.:36:34.

they know about him? David Cameron remind me of other Conservative

:36:34.:36:41.

leaders, he has bad judgment and good jokes. Ed Milliband is the

:36:41.:36:44.

only one thinking about the future of the country, what we will do

:36:44.:36:48.

once the deficit is dealt with. He understands the change that brought

:36:48.:36:51.

about the economic crisis we face, that is what the speech to

:36:51.:36:55.

conference was about this year. A lot of people are saying he's on to

:36:55.:36:58.

something. You will stick to him through thick and thin? I certainly

:36:58.:37:02.

will, I backed him from the start. He showed courage and determination,

:37:02.:37:06.

he doesn't flinch when the going is tough, he's the right person to

:37:06.:37:10.

lead us into the next election and he will.

:37:10.:37:13.

President Obama thanked American troops for their service in Iraq

:37:13.:37:18.

today. A symbolic end to the deployment of combat forces there.

:37:18.:37:23.

This dumb war, as Obama called it, has cost America the lives of 4,500

:37:23.:37:28.

of its citizens, to say nothing of over a trillion dollars in cash and

:37:28.:37:35.

the lives of uncounted Iraq year, all to destroy the regime of a man

:37:35.:37:38.

who turned out not to have weapons of mass destruction and not to be

:37:39.:37:46.

backing Al-Qaeda. Where does this campaign leave American power.

:37:46.:37:51.

It has been an odyssey of pain, division, and as far as the US

:37:51.:37:56.

troops were concerned, unbending commitment. But America's war in

:37:56.:38:02.

Iraq is over. And the President who opposed it today tried to find the

:38:02.:38:06.

right words for those who is predecessor had sent into harm's

:38:06.:38:13.

way. It is harder to end a war than begin one. Indeed, everything that

:38:13.:38:17.

American troops have done in Iraq. All the fighting, and all the dying,

:38:17.:38:22.

the bleeding, and the building and the training and the partnering,

:38:22.:38:28.

all of it has led to this moment of success.

:38:28.:38:33.

Until even a few weeks ago it was assumed that a few thousand US

:38:33.:38:37.

troops would remain to assist the Iraqis with special counciller

:38:37.:38:41.

terrorist operations. As it became apparent that -- counter terrorist

:38:41.:38:45.

operations. As it became apparent that negotiations to secure this

:38:45.:38:49.

had failed, there was fury on the right, that is those who believed

:38:49.:38:54.

it was worth fighting accused the administration of squandering its

:38:54.:38:58.

sacrifices. The truth is, this administration was committed to the

:38:58.:39:03.

complete withdrawal of US troops in Iraq and they made it happen.

:39:03.:39:06.

Senator McCain that is simply not true. I guess you can believe that,

:39:06.:39:11.

and I respect your beliefs. respect your opinion, but the

:39:11.:39:15.

outcome has been exactly as predicted. That is not how it

:39:15.:39:21.

happened. It is how it happened. This is about negotiating with the

:39:21.:39:26.

sovereign country. An independent country, this was about their needs.

:39:26.:39:29.

The view that the biggest beneficiary from the past nine

:39:29.:39:35.

years has been Iran has currency on the other side of the political

:39:35.:39:38.

argument too. They believe that President Bush's invasion destroyed

:39:38.:39:42.

the peace of Iraq, and has allowed the country's neighbour to benefit

:39:42.:39:47.

in all sorts of ways. There was a long standing expectation, going

:39:47.:39:57.
:39:57.:39:59.

back at least to the 1980s, that a relatively powerful Iraq posed a

:39:59.:40:06.

necessary bulwark to prevent Iranian expansionism into the Arab

:40:06.:40:11.

world. Well that bulwark has now been seriously weakened as a

:40:11.:40:16.

consequence of the US intervention. Of course, the enormous cost of

:40:16.:40:23.

Iraq has had a deterrent effect on future intervention abroad. Almost

:40:23.:40:28.

4,500 US soldiers killed, more than 32,000 wounded, and some of these

:40:28.:40:33.

figures are controversial, something approaching 150,000

:40:33.:40:40.

Iraqis, who have died in the violence, and a bill of more than

:40:40.:40:45.

$1 trillion. The US made disastrous mistakes at the start, but they did

:40:46.:40:50.

learn quickly. With new tactics and a troop securing, at least they

:40:50.:40:58.

were able to pre-- surge, at least they were able to prevent civil war.

:40:58.:41:02.

The US forces to maintain a sense of discipline and cohesion, over

:41:02.:41:08.

the course of these many years of combat, really is remarkable.

:41:08.:41:14.

On the other hand, if we evaluate the performance of senior military

:41:14.:41:19.

leaders, the people at three and four-star ranks, those who have

:41:19.:41:22.

managed the war in Iraq, and are managing the war in Afghanistan

:41:22.:41:30.

there, it seems to me, that there is considerable work to be done.

:41:30.:41:33.

Falluja, where the Americans used their greatest force, there was

:41:33.:41:38.

relief today that it was all over. Most Iraqis supported American

:41:38.:41:41.

withdrawal, and will be glad for an end to what they regarded as

:41:42.:41:44.

occupation. But, a few hundred US advisers

:41:45.:41:48.

remain in a training role, and the two countries are vowing to

:41:48.:41:53.

continue strategic co-operation. If you look at the demand for

:41:54.:41:57.

energy in the future, and Iraq's capacity to meet some of that

:41:57.:42:02.

demand, as significant as that is, frankly, not to mention the fact

:42:02.:42:06.

that we are sitting on the western flank of a potentially nuclear

:42:06.:42:10.

armed Iran. When you stop and think about it from a strategic

:42:10.:42:14.

standpoint, it is maizeing how important this stick country is in

:42:14.:42:18.

this -- amazing how important this particular country is in this

:42:18.:42:23.

particular region. What remains at the end of this fight, a fractious

:42:23.:42:28.

Iraq, in a dangerous region, and the United States chastened by the

:42:28.:42:33.

sacrifice and force of unintended consequences, trying to forget the

:42:33.:42:38.

enormous cost of what it did. To discuss the state of the

:42:38.:42:40.

American foreign policy, from Stanford University, we are joined

:42:40.:42:49.

by the former Bush policy adviser, and from New York, we are joined by

:42:49.:42:56.

Ian Bremmre, er, President of the - - Bremer. Do you think the United

:42:56.:42:59.

States, which leaves Iraq, is the United States, in any sense, in

:42:59.:43:03.

terms of power, that went into Iraq? Oh sure, I think it is the

:43:03.:43:09.

same in lots of senses. But I agree with the point of your question

:43:09.:43:14.

which is that the costs of the Iraq war for the United States have been

:43:14.:43:19.

so significant that I think it is quite unlikely we will choose to

:43:19.:43:23.

solve problems elsewhere that they have solved by force in Iraq.

:43:23.:43:29.

Do you see it the same way? More or less. I mean the United States has

:43:29.:43:34.

the capacity if it wants to engage in your Iraq, even economically,

:43:34.:43:37.

but there is no way Americans would support it. Libya is a much better

:43:37.:43:42.

example of what the United States is doing militarily nowadays. It

:43:42.:43:46.

was only after the Saudis, the Arab League came at the Americans and

:43:46.:43:51.

said plos get involved, and then the French and then the Brits, and

:43:51.:43:55.

only then did the Americans say yes, but only with all of these

:43:55.:43:58.

conditions. That is much more of the military engagment you will see.

:43:58.:44:02.

Keep in mind Obama still has to leave Afghanistan. He won't be

:44:02.:44:07.

giving the kind of speech in 2014 on Afghanistan, if he's around,

:44:07.:44:12.

that you saw him giving on Iraq today. Here in Europe, Libya is

:44:12.:44:16.

seen as primarily seen as a European-led military mission,

:44:16.:44:20.

which involved very, very troops on the ground. How do you see the

:44:20.:44:24.

United States trying to prosecute its military and political mission

:44:24.:44:30.

abroad in future? Well I think if you look at the way the United

:44:31.:44:35.

States has engaged problems of terrorist threats in Yemen, in the

:44:35.:44:41.

Horn of Africa, and in other places, what the Obama administration's

:44:41.:44:46.

strategy is focusing on is fewer troops on the ground. Lots of

:44:46.:44:51.

intelligence information provieed by people living in the countries,

:44:51.:44:57.

lots of surveillance information provided by the United States over

:44:57.:45:00.

flying those countries, and precision strikes. That is good at

:45:00.:45:04.

killing terrorists, it is not good at changing the way the people who

:45:04.:45:08.

live in this country feel about their vulnerability to us attacking

:45:08.:45:18.
:45:18.:45:24.

them. It is good for one piece of the country but not good for all.

:45:24.:45:28.

What came away from the film I just heard was the sense that Iran is

:45:28.:45:34.

being emboldened by the fact that the United States has pulled out,

:45:34.:45:40.

Hussein isn't there. Iran's political position isn't an

:45:40.:45:43.

advantageous one, Syria, Bashar al- Assad is literally on his last legs

:45:43.:45:47.

and surrounded regionally and internationally, that will cause

:45:47.:45:52.

problems for Iran and Lebanon as well. The GCC, Saudi Arabia, having

:45:52.:45:58.

a much pronk stronger role on the gulf operation council, co-

:45:58.:46:03.

ordinating countries which have tilted more closely to Iran. Iran

:46:03.:46:07.

has problems internally between the Supreme Leader and the President.

:46:07.:46:12.

There is no question that Iranians want a bigger influence in Iraq. I

:46:12.:46:16.

see the problem with Iraq is major defragmentisingation and

:46:16.:46:21.

decentralisation, with the Kurds and the Sunnis wanting their more

:46:21.:46:24.

autonomous region, and the Shia, that is more of a problem. I don't

:46:24.:46:28.

see Iran becoming a mass of political threat because of Iraq.

:46:28.:46:33.

Isn't it a lot more difficult for the ufpl states to intervene abroad,

:46:33.:46:36.

given the state -- the United States to intervene abroad, given

:46:36.:46:39.

the state of the feeling about the United States in the rest of the

:46:39.:46:44.

world? Yeah, I do think it would be more difficult for the President to

:46:44.:46:48.

encourage public support for major interventions overseas. I think

:46:48.:46:51.

part of the reason that President Obama was so hesitant to go to

:46:51.:46:55.

Congress for authorisation for the use of force in the Libya campaign,

:46:55.:47:01.

for example s that he didn't want to risk public reaction to it. So I

:47:01.:47:04.

do think there is a hesitancy on the part of the American people. I

:47:04.:47:07.

would say that is ameanable to leadership. And when it matters for

:47:07.:47:11.

the United States to use force to protect and advance its interests,

:47:11.:47:15.

it is the President's job to build public support for that. The other

:47:15.:47:22.

thing it is ameanable to, is events. Who would have predicted, I know

:47:22.:47:27.

9/11 was predicted, but George Bush did not set out to have a major

:47:27.:47:29.

interventionist policy overseas during his presidency, 9/11 changed

:47:29.:47:34.

all of that, didn't it? That is certainly true. The 9/11 era is

:47:34.:47:40.

over. We saw that also with Bin Laden. I think that one of the big

:47:40.:47:44.

ships we have seen has been -- shifts we have seen, is the United

:47:44.:47:50.

States now focusing on Asia, not on the Middle East. That is a place

:47:50.:47:54.

given the concerns on China on both sides of the electoral divide. You

:47:54.:48:00.

will see the United States being more actively involved, several

:48:00.:48:03.

administrations has been you cut your teeth on the Middle East live

:48:03.:48:06.

or die. This administration has decided that is not where they are

:48:06.:48:09.

going to be. They will get a lot of international support among Asian

:48:09.:48:12.

allies for that. Thank you very much indeed.

:48:12.:48:22.
:48:22.:48:33.

That is all from Newsnight tonight. A storm brewing, but the calm

:48:33.:48:36.

before the storm brewing. It could be an icey start but many of us

:48:36.:48:40.

having a reasonable day with some sunshine inbetween the showers.

:48:40.:48:42.

Quite a mixture through the afternoon for example, there will

:48:42.:48:46.

be band of showers pushing out through parts of the Midlands, some

:48:46.:48:50.

of those showers will be wintry, mostly falling as rain to lower

:48:50.:48:55.

levels, on either side sunshine hanging on. Showers hanging on in

:48:55.:49:00.

the London area. Breezy but the winds not excessively strong, wet

:49:00.:49:04.

and windy across the far South-West of England as we end the day, a

:49:04.:49:08.

sign of things to come. That rain pushing up into the far South-West

:49:08.:49:13.

of Wales. Most of Wales having a reasonable interlude, some sunshine

:49:13.:49:16.

through the afternoon. For Northern Ireland too, I think after a

:49:16.:49:19.

showery period things will tend to dry out for a time in the afternoon.

:49:19.:49:24.

Scotland looks like having a cold, cold day, lingering fog patches,

:49:24.:49:29.

and the services could well have been -- surfaces quite slippery.

:49:29.:49:33.

Wet and windy overnight across the southern half of the UK, that is

:49:33.:49:37.

snow across Wales and the Midlands. That is one to watch. The worst of

:49:37.:49:41.

the conditions gradually clearing away on Friday, left behind a cold

:49:41.:49:46.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

Who's telling the truth in the latest tabloid phone hacking row?

And why Labour should be doing better in the polls.


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