18/07/2012 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.

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Tonight, a bomb at the heart of the Syrian regime, the President's


brother-in-law and two close advisers dead. Is this a turning


point in the conflict to overthrow President Assad? With Government


troops on the streets of Damascus, the Obama regime claims the regime


is losing control. There is democratic gridlock at the United


Nations. We will hear from the Foreign Office what they think


happened today and should happen next.


In an exclusive Newsnight interview, former President, Bill Clinton, on


a trip to Africa, talks about Nelson Mandela intervening in Syria


and weather his wife might still run, dr whether his wife might


still run for the presidency in 2016. That is a long way away, and


we are not kids away, and there are a lot of people who want to be


President, and a lot of things that could happen between now and then.


Unemployment drops for the fourth month running.


Defiantly people are clinging on to their jobs, flouting the rules of


the depression. What is going on. The British music industry turns


its fire on Google over on-line firecy, but illegal downloading is


not going away, even the bands don't know what to think. I should


feel terrible, right? But, I can't really lie and say that I don't


really feel that bad about it. At first the Syrian state media


called it saw side bomb, then changed the story to a terrorist


attack. Then the rumour mill hit top gear, with stories of panic and


anger right at the top of Bashar Al-Assad's regime. Whatever really


happened in Damascus today, it appears a bomb killed at least


three of the Government's top people attending a meeting of


security chiefs. One President Assad's brother-in-law. Britain


condemned the attack, and then confirmed the need for the United


Nations to take action. We try to make sense of fact, rumour and


propaganda. Killed or wounded in a single blast,


some of the men closest to President Assad, including his own


brother-in-law, the men responsible for putting down the uprising. It


is a body-blow to the Syrian regime. They have been confering in the


heart of dam kas cuss, at the national security headquarters.


Afterwards, as journalists arrived on the scene, security seemed very


low-key, which raises questions of what really happened. No pictures


have emerged yet of the scene of the explosion or the victims. Was


the perpetrator a suicide bomber, or a Government bodyguard working


secretly for the rebels as other sources suggest. Sow little is


known about the attack, and the regime inpenetrable, that rumours


have been flying around Dammer mass cuss, was it to cover the fact that


the brother-in-law was already dead, of the Defence Minister killed


because he was plotting a coup. There is no evidence for any of


this. The truth is probably sim letter, but no less dramatic, that


this was an audacious coup by the rebels, for which the state of


wholly unprepared. The fact there is no footage indicates they were


completely taken aback, they had no idea something like this was coming.


It also shows, the purpose of today as attack, of not to overthrow the


Government in one go, it was to sow fear and paranoia within the inner


circle, the surviving members of the Al-Assad regime, to show them


how close the rebels can come. Those killed were the Defence


Minister, Daoud Rajiha, thought to be one of the few Christian


officials in the regime, a former Defence Minister, General Hassan


Turkomani, who headed the President's crisis-management


office, and most importantly, the shadowy figure of Asssef Shawkat,


married to the President's sister. He's seen as the overseer of the


security forces office, they are extremely sophisticated and feared.


He's also the liaison between Damascus and Hezbollah. This


Government is not despairing though. The Government don't depend on a


few five or, six guys, they are a very large Government, and a


regional player. There is some gunmen, and some called Free Syrian


Army on the ground. I believe the army will deal with them, they did


deal with Homs, Douma and all these areas. Today state television


showed soldiers shooting in the streets of Damascus. Today the


fighting has come ever closer to the city. The pressure is on


outside powers to find a diplomatic solution. All of the concerns we


have expressed about the need for Al-Assad to step down, the need for


a peaceful transition, the need to achieve a peaceful solution to that


situation. By ignoring those appeals, by the international


community, that the violence there has only gotten worse and the loss


of lives is only increased. That tells us that this is a


situation that is rapidly spinning out of control. Tonight, the UN


Security Council delayed voting on a new resolution on Syria, with


Russia still opposing western demands for further sanctions


against the regime. Meanwhile, in a partly rebel held


north of Syria, people celebrated today at the news of the


assassinations in Damascus. But is this really the turning point they


hope for? The beginning of the end game for Assad? It could take weeks


or months or a year. There are a lot of toys at Bashar Al-Assad's


disposal, he hasn't deployed fighter jets against his population.


We heard last week, according to American estimate, chemical


stockpiles are being moved around the country. There is a lot more


damage this man can do before the regime falls. The Government won't


fall in Syria, because it has a strength. There is a support, there


is a lot of support of the Syrians, you know. There is also the support


of 2.8 million of the Ba'ath Party members. 1.4 million of them in


Damascus, and the Ba'ath Party, as you know, they used to be the only


ruling party, and the ruling party in Syria. Today, judging by


unverified video from rebels, clashes were continuing in Damascus.


Psychologically, the regime's suffered a major defeat. But


militarily, and politically, it is not finished yet.


In a moment we will hear from Alistair Burke, the Foreign Office


minister. But first our guest in Washington.


What are you hearing about who was responsible for this attack, and


how did they carry it out? course it is the Free Syrian Army


who carried out the attack. Forces from the Damascus suburbs carried


out the attack. It has been planned for some time. The whole operation


has been well-planned for over two months now. In order to use the


time before Ramadan, and the holy month of Muslim, it starts on July


20th, we do expect that more intense clash, and targets to be


targeted between now and July 20th or 25th, a lot depends on the


reaction of the regime, whether they will use chemical weapons in


the capital, whether they will level or shell certain


neighbourhoods in the capital. you worry about the world reaction


to this. Because the Syrian National Council, which you


represent supports the Free Syrian Army, some people will think of a


bombing like this as an act of terrorism? The international


position is now, with all due respect, is irrelevant. The


international community has been watching Syrians being slaughtered


on TV screens for 15 months now without moving or weren'ting


anything significant to stop -- presenting anything significant to


stop the bloodshed in Syria. It has been held hostage by China and


Russia, and there hasn't been a condemnation resolution, let alone


a resolution to bring any peace to the country. Syrians on the ground


have realised the only way to end this tyranny, and to end the error


of Mafia and vicious regime is by doing it by their own hands. That


is what we have seen. They have learned that clashing and seizing


territory will not bring the regime down, but hitting the lion's den in


Damascus, and hitting hard. Do you also expect, you said as everyone


knows the holy month of Ramadan is just about to begin, from the point


of view of the Free Syrian Army, there will be more attacks in


Damascus, from the point of view of the regime, there could be much


further repression, you even raised yourself the possible use of


chemical weapons in Damascus itself? If the regime used the


chemical weapons any way on Syrians and in Damascus, this will be a


complete game-changer, even Russia and China can't stand in front of


the security resolution now, and allowing the use of force to get


rid of this regime. They may threaten the use of it, only in the


coming days we will know. The very significant point here is that this


attack took place less than three miles away from the Presidential


Palace. The circle around Assad, and at top level, is shrinking


dramatically. That was forced -- that forced the command and army in


Syria to call for the bringing back of the fighting units that have


been disperseded throughout the country. And brirpbg, even the most


vicious and blood -- bring even some of the most vicious and bloody


paramilitary groups to Damascus, in order to try to stop the SFA from


taking more ground in Siria. They withdrew some troops from the Golan


Heights and brought them back to Damascus.


Thank you very much. Minister, you heard what he said,


effectively that the international community has done absolutely


nothing. There is not even a condemnationry resolution in the UN,


which means that the Syrians have to take it in their hand? He's


right to point the finger of failure at the UN, to not even have


a condemnatory resolution, despite all our efforts to try to get the


council to work together, we have been thwarted by this issue.


says you are held hostage by Russia's view? The UN Security


Council has to act together, I think the net effect is the same.


That is why we are trying so hard in the light of today's events,


which is shocking and has huge significance, to say there is now


real urgency for the international community to demonstrate that it is


prepared to act together. So we are going to table a chapter 7


resolution, calling for real teeth, in terms of sanctions, to be put


behind Kofi Annan's plan. Which is for a ceasefire, to allow peaceful


dialogue to take place. That is the answer, not more violence. There


are those who think it is a convenient excuse to blame the


Russians and Chinese, and so on, in fact, if you did get that


resolution people would say what are you going to do. Are you going


to put boots on the ground, what was the risk to British or American


or other personnel, the Americans don't want it in an election year,


and nobody wants another Iraq or Afghanistan? The resolution we are


talking about now does not put boots on the ground, there is no


suggestion of that. What the resolution would do, by


demonstrating Russia's support for a resolution that would call for UN


sanctions against Syria. It would demonstrate to the regime that if


it thinks it has Moscow has a friend, that is not necessarily the


case. What has to happen is the regime has to understand that the


Syrian people are looking for change, we need to get the


ceasefire in place to ensure that some sort of political dialogue


takes place. That was the plan that Kofi Annan put forward. That was


backed by the UN, it hasn't been delivered, but it must be now.


Don't you think realities on the ground have changed, everyone said


they wanted Kofi Annan's plan to work, but things have got worse.


You have heard there, the holey month of Ramadan won't bring relief


from the fighting, it might be the opposite? What we have heard


confirms our sense of confirm and - - concern and more to be done. The


longer this goes on the longer it will take for Syria to recover. As


soon as the violence stops there will be talking. We say it has to


happen now, because the longer it goes on the worse it is. That is


why we are so determined to carry through the diplomatic efforts.


you see today as a hipping point? think today is significant in terms


of who was killed, and how close it was. It is impossible to say if it


is an individual tipping point. What I can be sure is over the last


few weeks we have seen things we haven't seen before, there has been


defections, a loss of troops off ground. More support for the


opposition building up. Slowly and surely the pressure is building on


the regime. If it could be built with diplomatic pressure, and


Russia is vietiaal -- vital, we think this would make the


difference. In Kosovo s the US and UK took the lead and did nothing,


why not in Syria? Because the preference is to do it through the


UN. If it is not working, that is the point. Is there a point which


the UK would say to the US, maybe we should do something? I said


clearly, if diplomacy fails we cannot get a resolution, and the


situation is still more bleak, and more desperate for the future, well


you can't rule anything out. But the situation will be bleak indeed


unless we can get a resolution. the point was raised about these


chemical weapons, and the horrendous prospect they could be


used against civilians in heavily built-up areas, that seems


extraordinary, isn't it? It is extraordinary, we know the regime


possesses them. There are clear warnings, that sort of action would


be a game-changer. The Syrian regime must know there must be no


possibility of using any chemical weapons.


Thank you. As we have seen with flair, once a relatively young


world -- Tony Blair, once a relatively young leader leaves


office, there are opportunities to do things in power which seemed


difficult or impossible. So it is with Bill Clinton, who has devoted


a considerable amount of time to charitable causes in Africa. He


gives an exclufive Newsnight interview on -- exclusive Newsnight


interview, on Syria, Africa, and the presidential ideas of his wife.


First, as Presidents and ex- Presidents, Bill Clinton and Nelson


Mandela have developed a close relationship. The two meeting on


President Clinton Bill Clinton's regular visits to South Africa. And


yesterday on the eve of Nelson Mandela's 94th birth day. Africa


has been the focus of Mr Clinton's work since leaving office in 2001.


Fishly the fight gioints HIV, AIDS -- particularly the fight against


HIV and AIDS. He visited a clintic in Mozambique, partly funded by his


organisation, it offers one of the earliest infant detection, it gives


HIV results in less than an hour. want you to help us totally


eliminate the transmission of HIV. Clinton's health access initiative,


which works across the continent, has reduced the cost of drugs by up


to 90%. The Clinton Foundation's ambitions


extend beyond healthcare to climate change and removing barriers to


economic development. Mr Clinton cut the ribbon on a new library on


this South African village, Nelson Mandela's ancestoral village. Today


on his birthday, it was not the former US President who was the


star of the show. You have just met Nelson Mandela and he's celebrating


his 94th birthday. We don't see him very often in public, how is his


health? Seemed quite healthy to me. He has gained some weight, and he


looked stronger, his colour was better than it was two years ago


when I came for the World Cup. I felt good about that. He's 94, he


doesn't hear as well as he used to, he doesn't see as well as he used


to see. He doesn't move as much as he used to move. But I had a nice


visit with him. I think he's very happy in his native village. I


think being there, with his wife, having more time to himself, it


means great deal to him. But he did say how moved he was by the way his


birthday is being celebrated today in South Africa, with the 67


minutes of service by every citizen across the country. And I told him


that it was being celebrated all over the world. There are


celebrations in the UK, and the US, and elsewhere.


Now, you and Tony Blair, have been devoting a lot of time to Africa.


Is it easier to do this as an ex- leader, because when you are in


office, frankly there are no votes in Africa? I actually spent an


enormous amount of time in Africa as President. We adapted the


African growth and opportunity act. We had lots of efforts to bring


Africa into American decision- making. I took the longest trip on


the continent any President had ever taken. But what is easier when


you get out, is you don't have to worry about logistics so much. If


you are working, as iefpl, on economic development, on ago -- as


I am, on economic development, an agricultural development, on AIDS,


Malaria, on climate change, you can go to the sites and get into the


details of what you are doing. That is fun for me, I like doing that. I


didn't have the opportunity to do that when I was President, and I


like this. How much of the problems in Africa that you encounter are


man made, that they are rooted in bad governance in Sudan, or Mali,


or Zimbabwe. That is very frustrating, because sometimes you


have to turn a blind eye to what people are up to, because you have


to work for the Governments? places where the Government is bad,


and/or corrupt, we still provide AIDS medicine, at the world's


lowest prices. If they need that. And technology.


Sometimes we train personnel, but by and large we only work on an on


going basis in places where the Government asks us. We do have


where we operate a strict no corruption pledge, governing our


own activities. One of the things I hope to do, when I started this


effort, not just in Africa but throughout the world, is to build


the capacity of Governments to function well, particularly in the


healthcare area. I find as capacity goes up, corruption tends to go


down. The HIV prevention drug, Truvada, has now been approved in


the United States. Are we at a breakthrough point in the


prevention of HIV, with profound implications for Africa? I hope so.


But I still believe, because Truvada is a new drug, because it


will be more mostly, I think there are two things we have to do. First


of all, in the developing world, we have to continue to work on more


cost-effective strategies. We know, for example, that male circumcision


reduces the likelihood of infections of males by 60%. It is a


one-time operation that will be less expensive than a lifetime


regime of Truvada. The other thing is, in the developed countries,


even in the United States, we have some discreet populations where the


infection rate is going up again. And we don't want to take a


relatively expensive response, and, in the process, perhaps discourage


people from using the preventive measures that have already begun to


lose their grip in places where people don't worry about infections


any more. I think it is a very, very important timing. If we can


keep working to make the medicine more affordable, get the volumes up.


It can make a huge difference. The number is staggering, they say the


findings of research are that it could reduce the likelihood of new


infections by 75%. But we still have to figure out how to pay for


it, how to distribute it, and how to avoid having people think they


don't need to take preventive measures any more, that are more


basic, and less expensive. Can we turn to wider world, when you were


President, it was possible to lead the intervention in Yugoslavia, now


after Afghanistan and Iraq, do you think people back home don't want


to intervene, not just in Africa, but also in place like Syria, for


example, where we see a humanitarian crisis but where


intervention is extremely difficult? I think the


circumstances are different. We had a very long involvement in two war,


simultaneously, that was highly costly in lives, in injuries, and


in national treasure sure. We also have, in Syria, a difficult


situation for two reasons, first of all, it has one of the largest


militaries in the world. It has massive air defence systems, which


are complicating any efforts to have a no-fly zone. Frankly it's a


problematic thing because of the uncertainty about what happens. But


I think the United States, and the European allies, in continuing to


press the Russians and the Chinese to drop their efforts against more


aggressive action are doing the right thing. There is some headway


being made by the rebel fighters, and that is important. It is a


difficult thing, I sympathise with the leaders, because no-one likes


seeing the Syrian Government kill all these people. But we don't want


to bring in the international community in a way that would lead,


let as say, to the bombing of air defence systems that would kill a


lot more citizens. We have seen all over that the internally generated


efforts of regime change, even if they are supported by those of us


on the outside, are more likely to be lasting and have a positive


impact. I'm quite hopeful about the Libyan elections, and the fact that


they may have an exclusive society that recognising democracy is not


only winning an election, but it is minority rights and protecting all


sectors within the community. have been talking about the rich


world helping the poor, turning to your own election, are the


interests of the rich and poor very different, at least as phrased by


President Obama and Mitt Romney? Battle lines have been drawn,


because I believe, the Republican Party and the Congress, and the


nominee for President, say the most important thing is to have further


tax cuts on the wealthiest Americans, even if it increases the


debt, and weaker regulations, which is what caused the financial


meltdown in America, or at least kept it from being stopped in the


bud. I think that's highlighting these class differences. As you


know Governor Romney's pom say his role as a successful businessman is


exactly the kind -- means he's exactly the kind of person to lead


the American people, but there is the other point of view that his


failure to produce tax returns and all that sort of thing would not


help him, what are your thoughts? I'm supporting President Obama, you


know my thoughts. I think everybody about a person's record is relevant


to service as President. What is the job of the next President? That


is to accelerate the recoverry, get us back to full employment, get


income growth going in America again. To fully implement the


healthcare laws so we bring our cost down in line with our


competitor, as well as increased coverage. To create a new energy


economy that will generate millions of jobs. I think if you lock at


their positions on the issues, and the actions they have taken


previously, President Obama's much more likely to produce those


results than Governor Romney is. I think that should be the focus. Who


is more likely to bring us back to full employment and prosperity. And


in general, do you believe we have to grow together, and the


Government has a role to play in that, or should we weaken


Government and pretend it is the enemy, and say you are on your own.


The latter is the philosophy of the modern Republican Party, the former


is the fill lost fee of President Obama and the people who support


him, and -- philosophy of President Obama and the people who support


him. Looking back at your time in office, have you any regrets about


the big banks getting people too close to people in the Government,


-- getting too close to people in the Government, is there anything


you would have liked to do before the problems started? I wish I had


raised more public outcry about the rising problems of derivatives.


When I left office it was $100 trillion market around the world,


when it collapsed it was $700 trillion. I regret I didn't do more


to at least try to put that issue front and centre. It might have at


least caused more cautionary behaviour on the part of the people


engaged in that. As to whether the banks in themselves in America have


grown too large, too big to fail, I still don't have an opinion on that.


I think maybe I just don't know enough. It seems to me if you have


appropriate oversight of both financial and commercial and


investment banking, and you require capital reserves, sufficient to


cover risks, then you are better off. If you look at Canada, they


didn't have financial collapse, and they had unified investment banks,


commercial banks under one roof. Same thing is true in Germany. If


you look at what happened in the UK and Ireland, with the housing


bubble, it was just an old fashioned case of too little


oversight. There was not enough capital reserves for risks taken. I


think that was the primary cause of it. But I do wish I had raised more


hell about the derivatives. A final thought. As you know, the election


of the first African-American President leaves people wondering


when the United States will have its first woman President. I'm


wondering if there is enough room for another Clinton in the White


House, and if you are open to the idea of Hillary running in 2016?


She says she intends to retire from public life and work with me in our


own Governmental organisations. I'm open to her doing whatever she


wants to do. I think she's the ablist person I have ever known and


worked with, you could say my opinion is biased and it is. If you


look at the support she has received from the American people,


they feel that way too. That's a long way away. We are not kids any


more. There are a lot of people who want to be President, and a lot of


things that can happen between now and then. So I think you have to


take her at her word, and let's see what happens. I'm more worried


about trying to re-elect President Obama right now.


Thank you very much. Son-in-law good news, the British


economy, for all its woes, is creating jobs. The bad news is,


while unemployment is falling, the long-term unemployed remain a big


problem. Some good news, the British economy for all its wos is


creating job. The bad news is the long-term unemployed are the big


problem. We seem to have the unemployment rate cut in the


economy, but the economy is not doing well. The unemployment rate


is still high, but not getting higher as some people expected a


year ago. What it is pointing towards is there are still jobs


being created out there, the question is what sort of jobs, are


they particularly high-calibre. This campaign poster once told a


thousand political words. An economy in crisis, begets an


employment crisis. But now, that simple political


dynamic may be just as much historical art fact, as Saatchi &


Saatchi's 70s' poster. Today's Britain's poor economy is not


matched by snaking unemployment figures.


Figures out today suggest that those Britain is in recession, and


though unemployment is at its highest level in 18 years, it isn't


getting any worse. For the fourth month running, the statistics


included reasons to be cheerful. The unemployment rate is 8.1%, down


on the previous quarter. The total number of those jobless is down to


65 throw though. The lowest level for almost a year. Those in


employment have increased by 181 though though their highest level


for four years. -- 181,000, their highest level for


four years. This is a good set of figures for the labour market. If


you went back four years and asked anybody what you would have


expected to happen, given the proi longed period of low -- prolong


period of low growth, we wouldn't have expected this. It reflects the


resilience of the British labour market during this recession. It


reflects very well on how employees and companies have behaved. We have


seen short time working and lower real wage increases than you might


have expected. That has saved jobs. While it is difficult for the


individuals involved, having to accept part-time work, or lower pay,


it is still a lot better than the alternative, which would have been


much longer dole queues. British workers appear to have struck an


unspoken pact, with firms, learning lessons from the Japanese of short


time, staying on in a job with diminished hours, because it is


better than the alternative. In a recession there is a paradox of


productivity, if you carry on you need less workers, and they don't


get jobs, we found that in the United States. In contrast, in


Germany they are hoarding workers, they don't want to let them go,


they are good people. Productivity goes down, but we hope if we keep


the skilled workers productivity The reasons for the lack of drop in


figures could be the short time. Some of the people in that famous


political poster were Photoshopped in, and today's iconic figures are


also not quite what they seem. We have had an increase in self-


employment and part-time workers, but neither of those things are


unalloy good. Self-employed workers may have work, but is it as much as


they want. Are they getting quite the number of commissions they need.


Part-timers, most of them want to work more. Britain is working, it


is just working more flexibly, possibly more insecurely.


The number of self-employed people, both full and part-time, went up by


32,000, or 0.8% from the previous quarter T rose from 66,000 from the


same period a year before. -- it rose from 166,000 from the same


period a year before. It in some ways reflects flexibility, which in


times of recession is a good thing for the economy and individuals as


a whole. The question is what will happen when we come out of


recession. Will we see that type of employment that may be negative for


some individuals, being entrenched, or will companies and workers find


ways of making it work for them during the upturn as well. It is


too early to tell. Too early to tell on whether today's benign


trends really are benign. But there are those who need a little time to


digest. Long-term unemployment uncrease today, those out of work


for more than two years rose today. The worst figures since 1997. Those


claiming job sooker's allowance rose.


Including more -- jobseeker's allowance rose. Both thought to


have been the result of the tightening of the benefits' regime.


The long-term picture is more bleak. A lot of people are going for self-


employment, they don't show up in the statistics, but income may have


dropped from being employed. It is a much tougher and rougher world


than it seems. The overall level of employment is much higher than down


here. The second thing is companies are genuinely holding on to skilled


employees, but there is a great gap between those who have kills, and


those who are seeingsly unskilled. Companies are increasing


apprenticeship -- seemingly unskilled. Companies are increasing


apprenticeships. Squint at the headlines and Britains are making


decisions they wouldn't have, they are clinging on to job, even if the


jobs are shrunken. The unemployment rate is bucking the rules of


previous recessions. Have you ever downloaded music


illegally? If you have done, you are not alone in joining in the


kind of piracy that has the industry really concerned. BPI, the


British music trade body, has requested the deletion of more


illegal music files in the six months of this year than the whole


of 201. Now it is turning its anger on Google for listing piracy sites.


That has put Google at the heart of a very political debate.


It might seem like an industry in rude good health. But UK music


feels it is under siege. Album sales are down 20% over five years,


and the Internet awash with free music, and labels are demanding


that the Government does more to help them take on web pirates.


Their principle tart, going going theyle -- Google, they accuse it of


helping pirates. If you go to Google and put in


Adele and mp3, one of the options you get offered is a free download,


that is what many people come here looking for. Let's ignore this and


just search for Adele mp3, look through the first three pages of


results, you will struggle to find anything that appears to be a


legitimate site offering access to Adele's music.


With huge sales, Adele doesn't need to worry, what about Styly Cee and


Capo this UK hip hop artist is among several in the catalogue of a


one-man record label. Son Records says illegal downloads are killing


its business. In the last few years you have seen


the drop in sales, in previous years it is healthy and in latter


years it is chipped away. I look on-line I find a lot of my stuff


lying about for free. It seems it is getting a worse problem.


So, with one Styly Cee album, Alastair Nicholson tried a new


approach. First he put it out on vinyl only, without offering


digital copies for reviewers, that went well, then he released it for


paid download, the next morning he checked Google. I searched for the


artist name and title, it was page after page, after page, of file


shares and free downloads. I didn't get to anything legitimate until, I


can't remember, it was either the Beth bottom of the fifth page or


sixth page. What impact did that -- It was either at the bottom of the


fifth page or the sixth page. impact did that have on the album?


It pretty much killed it. The trade body that hands out the annual Brit


Awards, has been stepping up the pressure on Google, demanding it


pushing piracy sites lower down its search results. Once we have told


Google 100,000 times that a particular site is illegal, it


shouldn't be coming above iTunes and Spotify in the search results.


They say they are doing everything they can to help you, but they


can't mess around with the algorithm? They are in complete


control of that to decide where things come in the search rankings.


We are saying, once they have knowledge that a site is illegal,


to give an example, a court ruled in the UK that a particular site is


illegal and it should be blocked. They still list that site above


iTunes and Amazon, in search sites, if you search "download music".


Google knows it is in the spotlight, it has been trying to mend fences


with the music industry. Some say the answer is choke off funding for


pirate sites. It is not up to Google to go around the world


judging what is and isn't legal. I don't think people want us to do.


When people say it is their content, we remove it quickly and do two


million a month. What our research shows is however much you do on


filtering, blocking, what would be much more effective would be to go


after the money, and remove the financial underpinnings, the


triesing and payment processes on the sites -- The advertising and


payment processes on the sites. music industry recently thought


Jeremy Hunt was on their site, and he was briefing that the


communications bill would put Google on notice to act. Then came


his difficulties at the Leveson Inquiry, after which the bill of


put on the back burner, now the music industry fears that going


google executives appear to have great access to key figures at --


Google executives appear to have great access to key figures at


Downing Street? Google have enormous influence with Government


and are an impressive company. They spend an enormous amount on


lobbying, we think the creative industries should be listened to as


well. Google would deny the undue influence, and the BPI has devoted


plenty of resources to lobbying over the years.


The trouble is, the music industry doesn't speak with one voice. In


fact, even within bands you will find different views.


One last sound check for The Charlatans before a gig. The band


made its first album in 1990, but still isn't sure how it feels about


its music being free on pirate sites.


I should feel terrible, right. But, I can't really lie and say that I


don't really feel that bad about it. At the end of the day, I speak from


a musician's point of view, the fundamental reason is for people to


listen to your music. But, put it to them that their


industry believes the likes of Google and the advertisers are


making money from pirate sites, and you get a different view. I think


they are not going to make, and they are not showing respect, it is


wrong. Something should be done about it. That is morally wrong,


isn't it. For Google, the politics of all are


tricky, it wanted to be seen as a champion of free expression, but it


knows the Government wants it to play nicely with the music industry.


Over the years, Google really has had a reputation of being hippy-


dippy, sandal-wearing, everything- on-the-internet-is-free, seen to


support tacitly the pirate case, are you doing something about that?


I'm happy to say Google doesn't support piracy and we support


freedom of expression. I don't think those things are in conflict


with each other. You do think that Google is in the anti-piracy camp?


You can be appropriate in expression and piracy. I think that


is true of the music industry and the technical industry as a whole,


and it is true of the whole industry. The BPI has said that


advertisers and the cred did cart firms are on side with -- credit


card firms are on side with tackling piracy, but Google remains


outside. If there are a number of people distributing out there, that


is not Google's fault, I'm not laying it on the door. There is


this, how would I characterise it, lack of moral viewpoint about is


that activity. -- About that activity. And, after


more than a decade, Alastair says he's now released his last record.


Unless you are going to become, you know, the corporate mascot for God


knows who, Barclaycard, Weetabix, you name it, whatever,y see that


there is that many case just to make a business selling music.


UK music may be widely admired, but its �1800 million annual income is


in decline. And, in taking on Google, which makes around three-


times that, just in the UK, the record industry may find it is on


the wrong side of history. A similar picture on the Guardian,


three key allies killed in Damascus, and there are rumours the


President's wife has fled Syria. The Independent has similar


pictures. A story about the UK's nuclear


deterrent may be mothballed to save millions.


The HIV story I was exploring with President Clinton, a claim that HIV


can be cured. The FT has four banks targeting in


the Euribor issues. We leave news that Bollywood's first superstar


died today. He made his name as the romantic lead in a string of films,


Hello, good evening, drying up, by morning light and patchy rain


across England and North Wales. It breaks up into showers, there will


be quite a few showers in the south-east. Showers elsewhere much


fewer, more scattered a dryer day across northern England. Lighter


showers across the Midlands and East Anglia. It is really the


south-east of England that will see most of the showers in the


afternoon, some heavy and possibly thundery, likely to affect the


cricket at the offal, the showers fading away in -- at the Oval, the


showers fading away and the winds not as strong. A few showers


continuing in the north of the country and for Northern Ireland


the odd light shower through the day. Disappointing temperatures,


despite the fact that here and Scotland will be dryer than it has


been today. With fewer, lighter showers, temperatures aren't really


rising very much, we still have this gentle north-to-north-westerly


drift. Lighter winds but not warmer. The same can be said for Friday,


more showers across the northern half of the UK. Very few showers


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