08/08/2012 Newsnight


08/08/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Eddie Mair.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 08/08/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

When will the British economy start growing again? Don't ask me and

:00:13.:00:16.

don't ask the Governor of the Bank of England either. I don't think

:00:16.:00:21.

we're in any position to forecast what will happen in the euro area,

:00:21.:00:25.

and therefore, we're in no position of what will happen in the UK we

:00:25.:00:28.

have no forecasts. Could the economy get a lift from all that

:00:28.:00:31.

Olympic goodwill. We will ask four people at the sharp end, whether

:00:32.:00:36.

there will be long-term dividend from the games. Also tonight, the

:00:36.:00:41.

consensual sexual acts that landed a barrister in court. We will hear

:00:41.:00:45.

from prosecutors, and ask the prosecuted, whether he feels

:00:45.:00:53.

persecuted. At a special report from a city where heroin is cheaper

:00:53.:01:03.
:01:03.:01:05.

than chood. -- food. The Governor of the Bank of England,

:01:05.:01:09.

Sir David King, mindful not everyone will wade through every

:01:09.:01:13.

painch of the bank's quarterly report, is focusing on something we

:01:13.:01:18.

all understand, the weather.' year ago he said the economy was

:01:18.:01:23.

navigating rough waters, and storm clouds continued to roll role in

:01:23.:01:30.

from the euro area, then it was had he winds, and choppy water, in May

:01:30.:01:40.
:01:40.:01:40.

it was strong head winds, and then it was choppy waters continuing to

:01:40.:01:43.

roll in. A woman ran the bank earlier, and said there was a

:01:44.:01:49.

Hurricane on the way, apparently. Don't worry, there isn't. Weren't

:01:49.:01:53.

the Olympics supposed to make the economy stronger, if not faster and

:01:53.:02:02.

higher. Zero growth, why? That zero growth is the bleakest of all

:02:02.:02:05.

projections from anyone, zero is as bad as anyone thought it would be

:02:05.:02:09.

in 2012, it is for the whole year. A year ago we thought it would be

:02:09.:02:14.

2%, that is where all that head wind stuff came from Mervyn King.

:02:14.:02:20.

One odd quarter down or up, it doesn't matter to macro-economics,

:02:20.:02:25.

what matters is the size of the economy. This is the graph Mervyn

:02:25.:02:29.

King obsesses about. This red line shows you the UK economy, since

:02:29.:02:34.

2008 it has been smaller, it hasn't managed to struggle back, even on

:02:34.:02:39.

the day Lehmans went bust, and in the yellow zone, the projection, we

:02:39.:02:42.

find under new zero growth this year, that the British economy

:02:42.:02:52.

doesn't come back to its old size until mid-20 20 20, that is eight

:02:52.:02:55.

years. This is the central prodetection, Mervyn King, because

:02:55.:02:59.

of Europe, doesn't think you can put an accurate figure on that red

:02:59.:03:04.

line at all. I don't think we are in any

:03:04.:03:07.

position to forecast what will happen in the euro area, therefore,

:03:07.:03:11.

we are in no position to make any accurate forecast of what will

:03:11.:03:15.

happen in the UK. I don't think anyone else is either, to be honest.

:03:15.:03:20.

That is immensely reassuring to us all, what can he do about this?

:03:20.:03:24.

is very clear, He made a big signal today, that there is more quanative

:03:24.:03:31.

easing to come, we have had �357 billion already, and there is

:03:31.:03:35.

funding for lending �80 billion for the banks. The Government talked

:03:35.:03:41.

about this today, in the space of a year they pumped �125 billion into

:03:41.:03:45.

the economy, only �35 billion became money in people's pockets,

:03:45.:03:49.

why not? Because the banks are standing in the way. The �80

:03:49.:03:54.

billion, it is clear will become bank profit. Because of this, the

:03:54.:03:58.

governor was pressed by journalists if there were more radical things

:03:58.:04:02.

to do, one journalist sad why not buy the debt from the British

:04:02.:04:09.

economy and write it off? Could they do that? They could do that.

:04:09.:04:13.

Instead of saying over my dead body, he didn't say. That I was intrigued

:04:13.:04:17.

by that, I'm not the only one sitting in the press conference who

:04:17.:04:22.

was intrigue bid it. There may be more radical action. The earliest

:04:22.:04:26.

thing is another interest rate cut, probably to actual zero. Before

:04:26.:04:33.

that, can we count on the Olympics to boost the economy? If you ask

:04:33.:04:37.

that from any retailer in London, you will get a punch in the face,

:04:37.:04:40.

to be honest. Most are so annoyed about what the effect has been.

:04:40.:04:45.

Even those not sunk by it are feeling the binch. It does turn out,

:04:45.:04:52.

-- the pinch. It does turn out there is an upside, it is, the

:04:52.:04:57.

ticket sales. While we are all trying to get the tickets, we are

:04:57.:05:00.

contributing to the economic growth. Those of us on the edge of the

:05:00.:05:10.
:05:10.:05:37.

Olympic Park, it has been swings Never mind the dressage, Britain

:05:37.:05:40.

today was going for medals in the ultimate street sport, BMX. The

:05:40.:05:49.

sport that makes you glad they invented shock absorbers. And with

:05:49.:05:53.

the whole country now getting the cans in for the closing ceremony,

:05:53.:05:56.

it is time to start thinking about the economic impact of the games.

:05:56.:06:02.

Just a month ago, this was the promise. I'm confident we can

:06:02.:06:06.

derive over �13 billion of benefit to the UK economy, over the next

:06:06.:06:12.

four years, as a result of hosting these games. But with economics, as

:06:12.:06:19.

with BMX, it doesn't pay to be confident. The Bank of England's

:06:19.:06:23.

zero growth prediction burst the Olympic euphoria today. As for the

:06:23.:06:26.

2012-effect, turns out it is minor. There may well be some extra

:06:26.:06:30.

spending from tourism, but as many of us know, there is there has also

:06:30.:06:34.

been travel disruptions, more people are going on holiday those

:06:34.:06:37.

effects are small. The contributions from both ticket

:06:37.:06:44.

sales and TV rights, may bring a small boost to GDP in Q3. That is

:06:44.:06:49.

from the Bank of England is not exactly an enforcement of an

:06:49.:06:53.

economic Phoenix rising from the Olympic Flame. It does, at least,

:06:53.:06:57.

allay fears, that the overall impact of the games could be

:06:57.:07:01.

negative. At this floating market, a mile away from the Olympic Park,

:07:01.:07:06.

they are a little bit less ewe effusive about the impact of the

:07:06.:07:12.

games. This is an Olympic venture, but has it been attracting Olympic

:07:12.:07:15.

people? Swings and roundabouts, the fact we have come together has

:07:15.:07:21.

served us well, but the trade is exclusively local people. We have

:07:21.:07:26.

had a normal summer, if we have had a boost, it is because we are a

:07:26.:07:30.

floating market and come together. We have been shocked that there is

:07:30.:07:33.

less traditional foot fall than if we hadn't been together and a bit

:07:33.:07:38.

of a pull to people. No, there is not massive Olympic bump up, we

:07:38.:07:42.

haven't found that. The Olympic audiences, even though the site is

:07:42.:07:45.

just up behind us? Don't come here. The overall figures are patchy.

:07:45.:07:50.

This is what we know, hotel occupancy in London at the start of

:07:50.:07:57.

the games was 84%, a little up on the norm, of 82% a year ago. A

:07:57.:08:02.

post-games dip is expected, starting this Sunday. With

:08:02.:08:05.

restaurants takings in central London were down about 40% at the

:08:05.:08:10.

start of the games and Des spite an improvement, they are still down.

:08:10.:08:14.

The two -- and despite an improvement, they are still down.

:08:14.:08:19.

The two negatives, the costs, to pay for t we have had a lot of tax

:08:19.:08:22.

rises in the last couple of years, and one of the reasons is to pay

:08:22.:08:25.

for the public spending, one element of which is the Olympics.

:08:25.:08:28.

The second is the Olympics seems to have scared off economic activity.

:08:28.:08:32.

People were afraid that they wouldn't be able to travel to work,

:08:32.:08:38.

I run a London business, I was told to try and ask my staff to work at

:08:38.:08:42.

home. And tourism has been diverted from London, London has fewer

:08:42.:08:45.

tourists than usual, which is a bit odd, given the Olympics are going

:08:45.:08:50.

on. But other tourists who normally come to London have been diverted,

:08:50.:08:54.

they were afraid it would be too expensive. The Government spent �9

:08:54.:08:59.

billion on the games, the lottery another �2 billion, and the tax-

:08:59.:09:05.

payers in London �1 billion. A lot of that has gone on infrastructure,

:09:05.:09:08.

in private sector investment the massive shopping centre in

:09:08.:09:12.

Stratford is swings and roundabouts, it is a huge success, but retailers

:09:12.:09:15.

everywhere else in London say they are feel feeling the pinch. Those

:09:15.:09:20.

involved say the real pay-off is yet to come. Even down to the

:09:20.:09:26.

spectators who go, we are wowed. How do we turn the wow into

:09:26.:09:29.

economic percentage points? We have to follow through and make sure we

:09:29.:09:34.

deliver what we said we would from a legacy perspective. We want

:09:34.:09:38.

vibrant, occupied, well-used venues, capable of being used by not just

:09:38.:09:41.

elite, but everybody else. We want to create a place where people want

:09:41.:09:46.

to live, work and play. If we let the developments play out. That in

:09:46.:09:50.

theself will be a huge legacy. is a world away from the big

:09:50.:09:54.

planning project, or the credit card and burger and fizzy drinks

:09:54.:09:59.

companies that actually sponsored the Olympics, but it is stuff like

:09:59.:10:06.

this -- if stuff like this is the lasting legacy of the games,

:10:06.:10:08.

economic specialists will be very pleased, this is what they planned

:10:08.:10:14.

and worked for, real, chaotic, small businesses, and people and

:10:14.:10:19.

families, colonising the space in unpredictable and innovative ways.

:10:19.:10:23.

With all major state-run projects, there is an element of build it and

:10:23.:10:26.

they will come, and on this evidence they have. Not necessarily

:10:26.:10:30.

the people we expected. We will only know if the games generated

:10:30.:10:37.

more wealth than they consumed later.

:10:38.:10:42.

Four people with their fingers on the economic pulse are here. The

:10:42.:10:47.

co-founder of the Lyon restaurant chain, the man behind the Moshi

:10:47.:10:55.

Monster. The chair of Venture Capital, and Nicola Smith. Are we

:10:55.:11:02.

all agreed that you are all excited about the games, none of you saying

:11:02.:11:06.

bah-humbug. How do we translate that into something that has some

:11:06.:11:10.

kind of lasting economic legacy, Michael? I think everyone has been

:11:10.:11:13.

taken by surprise at how quiet things have been in central London.

:11:13.:11:18.

You mentioned taxi drivers are saying takings are down 20%,

:11:18.:11:22.

restaurants and bars are quiet. Going forward, what an amazing

:11:22.:11:25.

advert this has been for brand Britain, billions around the world

:11:25.:11:29.

are watching, hopefully it will increase tourist numbers in the

:11:29.:11:34.

future. Big business may come and settle here, we want to hire lots

:11:34.:11:39.

of people in silicone valley. And the other thing, the fact the games

:11:39.:11:45.

are inspiring a generation of kids. Olympians make amazing role models,

:11:45.:11:50.

better than reality TV stars, and the hard work and dedication they

:11:50.:11:55.

put in will develop the next wave of sportsmen and women to make

:11:55.:11:59.

Britain even greater. How do we translate this goodwill into

:11:59.:12:05.

tangible? We will get some benefits out of it, I'm slightly less

:12:05.:12:09.

optimistic than Michael. Why is that? The history of other games is

:12:09.:12:12.

there hasn't been a lasting legacy of significance. There will be some

:12:12.:12:15.

benefits for the country. It has been a success in terms of the

:12:15.:12:18.

number of medal we have won. The organisation has gone well, the

:12:18.:12:22.

site is good. But we have chucked an awful lot of money at it. A lot

:12:22.:12:26.

of lottery money at gone at it, that could have gone somewhere else,

:12:26.:12:31.

and done some other good. Has it done some good, yes. To justify the

:12:31.:12:36.

expenditure? We will find out in a few years. I expect it will be near

:12:36.:12:39.

neutrality, not anything particularly good, that is not to

:12:39.:12:42.

knock t it is a great experience. What about the tourists who have

:12:42.:12:46.

seen how great it is here and flock in greater numbers? They have to,

:12:46.:12:49.

they haven't been here the last week or two. There has been rather

:12:49.:12:53.

a shortage of people buying things in the stores in the city, I got

:12:53.:12:59.

the figures today for one of the large luxury department stores,

:12:59.:13:03.

some of their departments were down 50% this week. That is a huge

:13:03.:13:06.

economic blow. There are plenty of people not winning, over time, yes

:13:06.:13:11.

it will be good for the country's image, but most people did know

:13:11.:13:18.

where London was. Have your ress been empty, John vein ent --

:13:18.:13:23.

restaurants been empty? If you come to us you will find us filled with

:13:23.:13:27.

people, before the Olympics we were up 5%, there has been a decrease, I

:13:27.:13:30.

have a business partner who is shrewd, he spoke to people in

:13:30.:13:35.

Sydney, who said they didn't get the bounce expected, we learned

:13:35.:13:39.

from that. Two points to learn, number one, let's forgive the

:13:39.:13:42.

Olympics for not necessarily creating economic benefit, if I

:13:42.:13:46.

have a party, or I have a piece of cake, I don't try to ask that piece

:13:47.:13:50.

of cake or party to achieve an economic benefit to me. We have had

:13:50.:13:54.

a party, and there are huge benefits, non-financial, and non-

:13:54.:13:58.

economic, and intangible benefit that is come to us as human beings.

:13:58.:14:01.

We should celebrate that. The second thing is, we are half way

:14:01.:14:05.

through the race. This is like asking Ben Ainslie half way through

:14:05.:14:10.

the race, stop, and tell us why you might not win the race. We will

:14:10.:14:14.

until Sunday, London is amazing, things are going on, this goes all

:14:14.:14:17.

the way up to Glasgow. Let's come to London, there is lots going on.

:14:17.:14:22.

We are half way through the race. There is the Paralympics, let's get

:14:22.:14:26.

going, there is lots to do. Weren't you, as a businessman,

:14:26.:14:32.

understanding, as many of us did, that the Olympic Games would have

:14:32.:14:35.

an economic benefit to the United Kingdom. Didn't you expect to be

:14:35.:14:41.

feeling that now. Why phone a friend in Sydney? 18 months ago the

:14:41.:14:44.

general feeling was we are going to be so busy during the Olympics, it

:14:44.:14:49.

will be out of control, you won't be able to get deliveries in, it

:14:49.:14:53.

will be pandemonium, we will cope. Did you take on extra staff? We did,

:14:53.:14:57.

but fortunately, based on what happened in Athens and Sydney, we

:14:57.:15:01.

actually had some useful restaurant relationships, which told us that

:15:01.:15:06.

things weren't quite as the myths were suggesting, we were fortunate

:15:06.:15:10.

we were able to plan on that basis. I'm interested, surely the airlines

:15:10.:15:14.

knew people weren't coming, and someone knew they weren't coming. I

:15:14.:15:18.

wonder whether that message could have got out there earlier. Can we

:15:18.:15:23.

blame British Airways? No, enjoy the Olympic and invite people to

:15:23.:15:29.

come tomorrow. If you come to Lyon and say you like the rings -- Leon

:15:29.:15:34.

and say you like the rings, you will get a free side. Just now or

:15:34.:15:38.

because we are watching? I would like to sponsor the Olympics next

:15:38.:15:44.

time. You are doing a good job of publicity now! What is the way to

:15:44.:15:47.

screw some money, long-term, from the games? Two things to think

:15:47.:15:51.

about, first of all what have we already benefited from, from the

:15:51.:15:54.

games, this is a long-term construction project. It has

:15:54.:15:57.

created thousands of jobs, there is a great agreement between unions

:15:57.:16:04.

and employers on sielt, which means it is the great -- site, which

:16:04.:16:09.

means it has one of the best health and safety records and no problems

:16:09.:16:12.

with injuries, it is great to see how that benefited both workers and

:16:12.:16:15.

the whole of us now as we are benefiting from an Olympic Park

:16:15.:16:19.

that is being delivered to budget, to time, and has been a real

:16:19.:16:23.

example of how public sector investment can kick start the

:16:23.:16:26.

private sector investment we need to get the economy going on. We

:16:26.:16:32.

have a big area of reclaimed land, we have massive transport

:16:32.:16:37.

infrastructure and property infrastructure, and workers on the

:16:37.:16:41.

park, being paid at London living wage rates over the past four years.

:16:41.:16:45.

That will all help build productivity in the years ahead,

:16:45.:16:47.

and could bring significant long- term benefits. In the short-term we

:16:48.:16:50.

have to look beyond the Olympics at what is going wrong with the

:16:50.:16:54.

economy. The problem is a Government economic strategy set on

:16:54.:16:58.

choking off the recovery rather than getting us back to growth.

:16:58.:17:02.

are calling for massive public spending on huge products? At a

:17:02.:17:06.

time when the Government can borrow more cheaply than it has for two

:17:06.:17:12.

centuries, and people and various economists across the world calling

:17:12.:17:15.

for an immediate stimulus to get the economy going. Particularly

:17:15.:17:20.

when we have all the benefits and jobs the infrastructure investment

:17:20.:17:22.

can bring ts good for the Government to be considering that

:17:22.:17:26.

sort of strategy now. What about the point earlier, perhaps if this

:17:26.:17:32.

money was spent in another way, it would have had just as much benefit.

:17:32.:17:38.

New roads, new railways? We have done, that we reclaimed a land that

:17:38.:17:43.

was previously desolate, we have trained up apprentices. Everyone

:17:43.:17:49.

not watching in London might have had the more benefit. You said it

:17:49.:17:56.

was on budget, it wasn't. We pitched for �6 billion, it was �12,

:17:56.:18:00.

that is not on budget. One of the reason things have gone well, a lot

:18:00.:18:04.

of money has been spent, things have been done first-class, Rolls-

:18:04.:18:10.

Royce throughout, that's good in many ways, but a lot of money was

:18:10.:18:16.

spent. We did the same with the athletes, we spent �300 million, we

:18:16.:18:22.

got medals, but �60 million ten years ago, we had none. What about

:18:22.:18:29.

getting a man on the moon, did it inspire kids, definitely, but did

:18:29.:18:34.

it doing anything? No I'm a boring old accountant, on budget to me

:18:35.:18:39.

means on budget. It was a wonderful party, there is nothing wrong to

:18:39.:18:43.

throw a party that lifts the national spirit, increases

:18:43.:18:47.

confidence and makes people happy. It is hard to measure through GDP,

:18:47.:18:53.

part of life's rich tapestry. can argue, all the construction

:18:53.:18:56.

contracts were delivered through budget. This about the Olympics

:18:56.:19:00.

lifting the national mood, I think it is fabulous, I'm worried about

:19:00.:19:04.

all the these very minor economic factors n a normal period of

:19:04.:19:07.

economic growth, would really not be having that much impact on our

:19:07.:19:10.

GDP and suddenly being seen as enormously significant. The reason

:19:10.:19:14.

the Government keep telling us about the snow and the rain and the

:19:14.:19:21.

snow, and why it is all undermining our economy, is because underneath

:19:21.:19:25.

it is stagnant, and growing less quickly than when the Government

:19:25.:19:30.

came into power. Just thinking about the economic benefits,

:19:30.:19:34.

certainly the legacy of these games, how are we going to measure it?

:19:34.:19:38.

When do we measure it? Isn't it important to quantify it? We will

:19:38.:19:42.

never be able to measure it properly. Everyone is happy. There

:19:42.:19:46.

are some completely intangible things, will it result in more

:19:46.:19:49.

exports and visitors? Yes it will do some of that, nobody will know

:19:49.:19:53.

how much. You can't do it. Your point is an interesting one you are

:19:53.:19:58.

making about infrastructure spend, despite the �12 billion, there is a

:19:58.:20:02.

lot less than the reduction in the infrastructure spend since the

:20:02.:20:05.

coalition came in. We are seeing infrastructure spending cut by

:20:05.:20:08.

close to 50% in this parliament. It is one at the point where

:20:08.:20:13.

consumption is falling, private sec investment is falling, it is one of

:20:13.:20:17.

the way to get the economy growing again. It is a shame. The best

:20:17.:20:22.

thing to do is educate Rio. We, seemingly as a nation didn't

:20:22.:20:25.

completely learn from Sydney and Athens, Rio can learn from us and

:20:25.:20:29.

understand what the pen about fits of a great party, and cost it

:20:29.:20:34.

appropriately. We are in -- benefits of a great party, and cost

:20:34.:20:39.

it appropriately. We have five or six days until the end, let's get

:20:39.:20:46.

people to London, we have people in pink shirts and hilarious

:20:46.:20:52.

entertainers. Thank you for the free meal offer. You're welcome.

:20:52.:20:56.

don't have other entertainment, we have Newsnight. Tomorrow we will be

:20:56.:20:59.

looking at another aspect of the Olympic legacy, we will be looking

:20:59.:21:03.

at what will happen to the Olympic Park itself.

:21:03.:21:06.

It's possible, you are watching this programme in your bedroom.

:21:06.:21:09.

Perhaps alone, perhaps with your significant other, perhaps with

:21:09.:21:13.

someone you have only just met, in which case, why the hell are you

:21:13.:21:16.

watching Newsnight. But, whatever your bedroom circumstances, would

:21:16.:21:18.

you like someone from the Crown Prosecution Service in there with

:21:18.:21:22.

you, just to make sure you are not doing something grossly offensive,

:21:22.:21:29.

disgusting or otherwise obscene, and then taking a photograph of it.

:21:29.:21:33.

In essence, that's what happened to barrister, Sara Walsh. He has been

:21:33.:21:37.

on trial, charged, under the Criminal Justice Act of 2008, which

:21:37.:21:44.

makes it illegal to possess or look on-line at any pornographic image

:21:44.:21:48.

depicting an act that results or is likely to result to a serious

:21:48.:21:52.

industry to a person's breast, an news Oreganals. I don't want to

:21:52.:21:56.

cause any offence, if it is not clear where the item is going, you

:21:56.:22:01.

might want to find the remote. The charges related to photographs Sara

:22:01.:22:05.

Walsh's computer, including images of anal fisting, and an object

:22:05.:22:11.

being inserted into the tip of a penis. Another image found on Mr

:22:11.:22:16.

Walsh's e-mail account was said to be an indecent image of a teenage

:22:16.:22:21.

boy. The prosecution suggested to wans that people who attended

:22:21.:22:28.

sexual health clinics engaged in more risky practices. She replied

:22:28.:22:32.

people who attended took their sexual health seriously. Tonight

:22:32.:22:36.

the Crown Court found him not guilty in the six charges against

:22:36.:22:41.

him. Although he has kept his freedom, he last lost his job,

:22:41.:22:46.

working as an aide to the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson. First the

:22:46.:22:52.

woman who decided to bring the case, the chief crown prosecutor for

:22:52.:22:55.

London. Why did the CPS bring the case? We brought the case because

:22:55.:23:00.

there was sufficient evidence, when we looked at the case, we found

:23:00.:23:06.

that there was evidence to prosecute the offence of possessing

:23:06.:23:10.

extreme pornography. What we looked at there was whether or not there

:23:10.:23:15.

was an pornographic image. And the element of the act that we

:23:15.:23:20.

prosecuted under was whether or not the image showed there was likely

:23:20.:23:25.

to be serious harm and injury caused. But to be clear, if these

:23:25.:23:28.

acts had taken place and nobody had taken a photograph, the law

:23:28.:23:32.

wouldn't be interested? No, it is around the image and the law which

:23:32.:23:38.

we prosecuted under, it is about possessing a pornographic image.

:23:38.:23:42.

But your concern was whether people would come to serious physical

:23:42.:23:47.

damage? Yes, the law is about, does the image show an act that is

:23:47.:23:52.

likely to cause serious harm or injury. So it is not about

:23:52.:23:56.

particular acts being made unlawful, it is about, does the image show

:23:56.:24:00.

that there is likely to be serious harm or injury. What the law is

:24:01.:24:07.

obsessed about here, is, "sex"? is about pornographic images, it is

:24:07.:24:12.

about are these extreme images, in that does it show serious harm or

:24:12.:24:16.

injury. If I was to take a photograph of someone marathon

:24:16.:24:20.

running, or skydiving, or smoke ago cigarette, the law is not

:24:20.:24:23.

interested there? That is not pornographic. You have to make sure

:24:23.:24:27.

there is a pornographic image, which, dedefinition, is sex. Is any

:24:27.:24:30.

part of it, when you are prosecuting a case like this, do

:24:30.:24:34.

you hope that people will be embarrassed into pleading guilty?

:24:34.:24:37.

That is not why we prosecute cases, we prosecute cases because we have

:24:37.:24:43.

the evidence there, and we put them before a jury. It is for a jury to

:24:43.:24:47.

decide. This particular case went all the way through to a jury, it

:24:47.:24:49.

wasn't stopped by the judge, it was put before the jury, the judge

:24:49.:24:53.

decided there was a case to answer. It is a matter for the jury then to

:24:53.:24:56.

decide whether there was any reasonable doubt, which is

:24:56.:25:00.

different from our test which, is whether there is realistic prospect

:25:00.:25:04.

of conviction. Are you still happy to have brought the case? Having

:25:04.:25:07.

looked at the images and the case we were right to bring it. The

:25:07.:25:11.

evidence was there. The fact that a jury decides differently, is

:25:11.:25:14.

perfectly proper, but it doesn't mean our original decision was

:25:14.:25:17.

wrong. Are you going to review your procedures as a result of this

:25:17.:25:21.

case? We look at each case individually, and we look at

:25:21.:25:24.

whether the evidence is there, and whether it is right to prosecute or

:25:24.:25:26.

not, and whether it is in the public interest. We will certainly

:25:26.:25:31.

do that, in the same way we always do. Our procedures are there to

:25:31.:25:34.

make sure that those tests are carried through. This was case that

:25:34.:25:39.

took place, in part, on Twitter, as you know, and something people are

:25:39.:25:43.

saying on Twitter, they are wondwhrerg this prosecution had had

:25:43.:25:47.

anything to do -- wondering whether this prosecution had anything to do

:25:47.:25:52.

with Sara Walsh's work as a barrister of prosecuting police

:25:52.:25:55.

officers for corruption? Absolutely not, I didn't know that was part of

:25:55.:25:58.

his work. It doesn't matter who the individual is, we look at the

:25:58.:26:01.

evidence and whether an offence has been committed. Isn't the

:26:01.:26:08.

embarrassing thing about this case, not these images, but the fact it

:26:08.:26:12.

was brought, what is the law doing in people's bedrooms? This is the

:26:12.:26:17.

law as it stand, the act was passed in 2008, it is not for us to

:26:17.:26:20.

comment on legislation. It is for us to apply the law as parliament

:26:20.:26:25.

sees fit. Thank you very much. Thank you.

:26:25.:26:29.

Sara Walsh, what is it like having your sex life discussed in great

:26:29.:26:32.

detail in open court? Extraordinarily embarrassing. To

:26:32.:26:37.

speak to a jury, across a courtroom, over seven days, explaining what I

:26:37.:26:41.

do in private is not something I would wish on anybody. Did you

:26:41.:26:44.

consider, knowing that was coming, did you consider simply pleading

:26:44.:26:50.

guilty and not going through that? Nothing that I did was ill legal,

:26:50.:26:54.

and there was no way I would plead guilty, no. You are a QC, what did

:26:54.:27:00.

you think of the legal arguments that were arraigned against you?

:27:00.:27:04.

They were poor. The act has a purpose, that is to enable

:27:04.:27:08.

prosecutions to take place for pornography that would be caught by

:27:08.:27:12.

the Obscene Publications Act, were it published in this country. What

:27:12.:27:18.

this act was actually used against me for were pictures that were

:27:18.:27:20.

taken of consensual activities by people in private. That was not

:27:20.:27:24.

what it was designed for. It is designed for extreme porn nothing

:27:24.:27:31.

me, beastality, and necrophelia, not two or three people enjoying

:27:31.:27:37.

themselves in the bedroom. What about the law's duty to protect

:27:37.:27:41.

people from physical harm, whether or not there is a consenting act

:27:41.:27:45.

going on? That is absolutely right, and were there any harm caused,

:27:45.:27:50.

there wouldn't be a problem. These were consenting adults, I was

:27:50.:27:54.

taking part in some of them, there was no harm at all. You were not a

:27:54.:27:58.

medical expert, that is what the CPS had at their disposal, they

:27:58.:28:02.

thought there was a problem? We had doctors who said there wasn't a

:28:02.:28:07.

problem. It is activity that doesn't cause injury to the vast

:28:07.:28:10.

majority of people who engage it, the test under the act is whether

:28:10.:28:15.

it is likely to cause harm. It is a legislation that is designed to

:28:15.:28:18.

stop extreme activity, the inversion of knives, this is not

:28:18.:28:21.

what this was about. Do you blame the law then or the prosecutors who

:28:21.:28:25.

made the decision to bring you to court? It is the way in which the

:28:25.:28:31.

law is being interpreted. The law is correct, but the way in which it

:28:31.:28:36.

was interpreted in my case was quite wrong. Will you change any

:28:36.:28:41.

part of your behaviour as a result of this case, will you stop being

:28:41.:28:45.

involved in photographing any of these events? No, the jury have

:28:45.:28:48.

decided what I did was legal and proper.

:28:48.:28:55.

This was case, which played out in part on Twitter. Your side were

:28:55.:28:58.

able to tweet from the courtroom? That's right. How important was

:28:58.:29:02.

that to you? It was very important. Because the headline of this case

:29:02.:29:05.

sounds dreadful. If you hear the evidence as it comes out over the

:29:05.:29:11.

course of the trial, and you are able to express that, over Twitter,

:29:11.:29:16.

to people, they can feel as if they are participating, and people

:29:16.:29:20.

understand what is going on. The reaction on Twitter was

:29:20.:29:22.

overwhelmingly positive, they felt they were there and could

:29:22.:29:27.

understand what I was going through. Even there was an allegation of an

:29:27.:29:31.

indecent photograph of an under-age boy, was that a particularly

:29:31.:29:34.

difficult thing to deal with? was, it was one of those

:29:34.:29:38.

allegations that sounds absolutely ghastly. The jury decided that

:29:38.:29:44.

image was an image of an adult. Do you want your old job back, will

:29:44.:29:48.

you get your old job back? That is a matter for other people. Yes, I

:29:48.:29:51.

would like to carry on doing what I did before, certainly. Do you think

:29:51.:30:00.

you were well treated by your employers? As a barrister you are

:30:00.:30:03.

not employed, the only person to mistreat me, would be me. At the

:30:03.:30:07.

moment I'm unable to return to chambers, but I hope to be able to

:30:07.:30:10.

do so. Have you any calls of support from people who used today

:30:11.:30:16.

employ you today? I have had imnumberable calls from people

:30:16.:30:20.

today, not from my chambers. Do you think the law will now be looked at,

:30:21.:30:26.

or do you think at least the CPS will review their procedures?

:30:26.:30:30.

think the CPS ought to lock at their procedures, they are using -

:30:30.:30:34.

look at their procedures, they are using this act to criminalise legal

:30:34.:30:38.

activity. When the act was passed, the Ministry of Justice indicated

:30:38.:30:43.

it would only be used to prosecute pictures that would otherwise be

:30:43.:30:45.

caught under the Obscene Publications Act. There is no way

:30:45.:30:48.

these pictures would have been caught under the Obscene

:30:49.:30:52.

Publications Act. It was used in a way parliament was told it would

:30:52.:30:57.

not be used. What have you learned from this? That's a difficult

:30:57.:31:03.

question. I have learned that the juries in this country return

:31:03.:31:06.

perfectly sound and sensible verdicts. But I have also learned

:31:06.:31:12.

that it takes 15 months of very difficult process to get there. I

:31:12.:31:15.

am very much obliged to the jury for their sensible decision, but it

:31:15.:31:23.

has been a long and hard road. In part of the world, where history

:31:23.:31:27.

hangs heavy, and disputed lasts generations, there is renewed

:31:27.:31:31.

unrest. In recent days the trouble in Sinai, has seen militants

:31:31.:31:35.

killing Egyptian border guards. Now the military has hit back, and

:31:35.:31:39.

Egypt's President has sacked his intelligence chief and the Governor

:31:39.:31:44.

of North Sinai. Tell us more about what's happening? Essentially there

:31:44.:31:49.

is a problem brewing in the Sinai Peninsula for a long time. It has

:31:49.:31:51.

become ungoverned space, particularly since the Egyptian

:31:51.:31:56.

revolution. Things have come to a head in the past few days. The

:31:56.:31:59.

peninsula itself sits between Egypt and Israel. It is a sensitive part

:31:59.:32:03.

of the world. There have been lots of attacks across the Israeli

:32:03.:32:08.

border, if we go in closely, on Sunday, there was a major incident

:32:08.:32:15.

at the Keremshalom crossing point, this is when 16 border guards were

:32:15.:32:18.

killed by militants from the Egyptian side and then tried to get

:32:18.:32:22.

through in armoured vehicles to the Israeli side. Yesterday the

:32:22.:32:27.

Egyptian security forces came under attack in these two places. Their

:32:27.:32:32.

response was to launch a major attack there, including helicopters,

:32:32.:32:37.

firing missiles, some report even of air strikes, as we can see from

:32:37.:32:42.

the video, heavy armoured force mechanised infantry moving in there.

:32:42.:32:46.

The Egyptian military say they killed 20 people in those clash.

:32:46.:32:49.

Some locals have cast doubt on that, and said they don't think many

:32:49.:32:53.

people were killed. The point is this is now turning into a

:32:53.:32:57.

militariseed flash point, with considerable risks for the new

:32:57.:33:07.
:33:07.:33:07.

President of Egypt and security more generally in the area. What

:33:07.:33:10.

are we learning about the relationship between the President

:33:10.:33:14.

and his generals? We are hearing about the military and the

:33:14.:33:18.

President being locked into conflict. Now they have to deal

:33:18.:33:21.

with the problems together. They have formed a defence council, the

:33:21.:33:24.

President and the Defence Minister, this holdover from the Mubarak era,

:33:24.:33:28.

they are both on this. They took these decisions together, we are

:33:28.:33:32.

told. They sacked the head of the domestic Intelligence Service,

:33:32.:33:34.

because they say he ignored an Israeli warning that this attack

:33:35.:33:39.

was about to come. In some ways you can see a positive value in this

:33:39.:33:42.

new joint approach. Mr Morsi obviously coming from the Islamic

:33:42.:33:47.

side of politics, dealing with an Islamic militant threat in Sinai,

:33:47.:33:51.

he has considerable credibility. The military, I think, regard that

:33:51.:33:55.

as very helpful. But this could escalate seriously, if it becomes

:33:55.:34:00.

more of a feud, if the combat becomes more generalised, it could

:34:00.:34:04.

really test both President and military.

:34:04.:34:08.

Some of the statistics about Karachi in Pakistan are quite

:34:08.:34:13.

something. In one of the world's most populist countries, it is the

:34:13.:34:17.

most populated city. One of the most densely populated areas on the

:34:17.:34:20.

planet. Forecasters struggle to keep up with the explosion in

:34:20.:34:25.

numbers in Karachi. 21 million people, they reckon. A number that

:34:25.:34:29.

makes London, even Olympic London, look like Stackton Tressel. There

:34:29.:34:33.

are more startling facts about Karachi, heroin is cheaper than

:34:33.:34:37.

food. So the city has a vast number of addicts. Those who want to break

:34:37.:34:42.

their habit have to rely on a controversial clinic, run by a

:34:42.:34:52.
:34:52.:34:57.

charity, using cold turkey methods. In this sprawling port city, there

:34:57.:35:02.

is an estimated half a million chronic heroin add ducts. That is

:35:02.:35:10.

one in every 40 people. Pakistan is seen by many outsiders as a failed

:35:10.:35:14.

state, has little public health profession, it is left to charities

:35:14.:35:21.

to plug the gap. The Edhi Foundation, runs what is thought to

:35:21.:35:28.

be the world's largest drug rehabilitation centre.

:35:28.:35:32.

Without the resources to offer conventional treatment, like

:35:32.:35:37.

methadone, the 4,000 patients are given only paracetamol to help with

:35:37.:35:47.
:35:47.:35:50.

the pain of cold turkey. Every day the foundation is called by the

:35:50.:35:53.

families of addicts, so desperate for help, that they are willing to

:35:53.:36:03.
:36:03.:36:03.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 74 seconds

:36:03.:37:18.

Because he was forced into rehabbi his mum, under the centre rules,

:37:18.:37:24.

only -- rehab by his mum, under the centre rules, only she can decide

:37:24.:37:29.

when he can leave. Unlike him, these brothers checked themselves

:37:29.:37:39.
:37:39.:38:01.

in, and can leave whenever they It's now a week since the brothers

:38:01.:38:05.

checked themselves into rehab. They have decided they are ready to

:38:05.:38:15.
:38:15.:38:54.

But had you sane's happiness is short lived. -- Hussain's happiness

:38:54.:38:57.

is short lived. His wife doesn't want to see him and his mother-in-

:38:57.:39:05.

law tells him to leave. At just 16, his wife says her life has been

:39:05.:39:15.
:39:15.:39:54.

The next day we found Hussain and Yusef sleeping rough, a few miles

:39:54.:40:04.
:40:04.:40:22.

from their home. The war in Afghanistan has led to a surge in

:40:22.:40:28.

opaite exports, as a result, heroin in Karachi is cheaper than food,

:40:28.:40:32.

and can provide escape for those stuck in a cycle of poverty and

:40:32.:40:42.
:40:42.:40:42.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 74 seconds

:40:42.:42:41.

48 hours after calling for help, Staff at the centre told me they

:42:41.:42:44.

often see patients pleading with family members. To them it is an

:42:44.:42:54.
:42:54.:42:55.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 74 seconds

:42:55.:43:47.

expected part of the withdrawal A week after leaving rehab, he says

:43:47.:43:53.

he has put his addiction behind him. But his brother is missing. Hussain

:43:53.:44:03.
:44:03.:44:28.

Treatment doesn't work for everyone. But the Ehdi Centre is a lifeline,

:44:28.:44:35.

in a city that sometimes feels like it is floating on a sea of heroin.

:44:35.:44:41.

There is more on that story tomorrow morning in Crossing

:44:41.:44:47.

Continents at 11.00pm on Radio 4, a terrific network. A quick look at

:44:47.:44:57.
:44:57.:45:31.

the paper, in the Telegraph a That's all tonight. I will be back

:45:31.:45:33.

with more winning medals tomorrow. From all of us on the programme,

:45:33.:45:43.
:45:43.:46:06.

From all of us on the programme, good night. Good evening, the

:46:06.:46:09.

weather is set fair the next couple of days. With high pressure to

:46:09.:46:13.

thank for that. It is muggy, starting with mist and fog, not

:46:13.:46:19.

just around the coast but Midlands. It will burn back come the

:46:19.:46:22.

afternoon. In Scotland we will see more sunshine. The north-east will

:46:22.:46:25.

see more sunshine than we have seen. It will be warmer as a result of

:46:26.:46:30.

more strong August sunshine. Always the risk that some southern coastal

:46:30.:46:34.

counties will see sea fog lapping on shore. It is a similar risk

:46:34.:46:37.

around coastlines of south-west England, the Bristol Channel and

:46:37.:46:42.

Wales. On the whole we will see a lot of dry, fine and sunny weather.

:46:42.:46:46.

Warm weather too, with very little wind around. There could be a sea

:46:46.:46:49.

breeze to lap some of the sea fog on to the east coast of Northern

:46:49.:46:53.

Ireland. With the weather front close by, one or two showers around.

:46:53.:46:57.

Brushing close to the Western Isles, for the bulk of Scotland, a lot of

:46:57.:47:02.

dry, and fine weather. Cloud in the north-east, one or two showers, the

:47:02.:47:05.

indication there for Inverness. Otherwise, Thursday and Friday,

:47:05.:47:10.

Manchester, Belfast, Edinburgh and Inverness, set fair. A similar

:47:10.:47:13.

picture further south. The cloud coming and going, more broken in

:47:13.:47:17.

the south than we had during the day today. Warmer that is a

:47:17.:47:20.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS