03/09/2012 Newsnight


03/09/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Tomorrow we shall see what David Cameron can do to get some zip back

:00:12.:00:15.

into his Government. Could the first planned reshuffle of his time

:00:15.:00:21.

in Number Ten, also be his last before the election. Our political

:00:21.:00:25.

editor is here. We are expecting jobs for a lot of

:00:25.:00:30.

new MPs, and a healthy amount of women, could it be the line up that

:00:30.:00:33.

keeps Cameron in power. Time to shake up the political

:00:33.:00:38.

panel and see if the summer holiday has harpened their brains.

:00:39.:00:43.

everybody needs to be asked. Politicians on both right and left

:00:43.:00:48.

make idiots of themselves over rape. Why has this crime suddenly become

:00:48.:00:54.

so contentious? We will hear from the feminist writer, Naomi Woolf.

:00:54.:00:57.

When street protests brought down the Mubarak dictatorship, Britain

:00:57.:01:02.

Prom my to do all in its power to chase down and return to Egypt

:01:02.:01:05.

money the regime had stolen. A Newsnight investigation has

:01:05.:01:08.

discovered a great chasam between words and deeds.

:01:08.:01:13.

Why has Britain been so slow to trace the rest of the money?

:01:13.:01:18.

Its apparent inaction proved by developments Newsnight was able to

:01:18.:01:28.
:01:28.:01:28.

obtain within minutes on-line. These are not good days for an

:01:29.:01:32.

ambitious MP to drop his or her phone down the loo, ob to be

:01:32.:01:36.

separated from it at all. The Government remuffle which has been

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talked about all summer is finally upon us. Details are beginning to

:01:40.:01:44.

emerge tonight. David Cameron has, of course, decided nothing to base

:01:44.:01:48.

as winning the election will be a consideration. Unless he's suddenly

:01:48.:01:51.

gone deaf, he must know there are plenty of his own backbenchers who

:01:51.:01:55.

think it is way time he got a grip and changed direction.

:01:55.:01:59.

First, tonight, our political editor looks at what they think he

:01:59.:02:07.

ought to do. Politicians waited today for the

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Prime Minister's first reshuffle. Promotion or demotion, but

:02:11.:02:16.

certainly commotion in Westminster. Away from the hand wringing, hand-

:02:16.:02:21.

me-downs and handbags were on offer down the road in south Kensington,

:02:21.:02:25.

in auction, at Christie's, Margaret Thatcher's outfits went on sale.

:02:25.:02:29.

Some of David Cameron's critics think her heir could do worse. This

:02:29.:02:32.

reshuffle has to I a dress Cameron's twin problems of party

:02:32.:02:36.

management and policy drift. Party management would suggest he recruit

:02:36.:02:39.

some of those truer blue right-wing Conservatives to positions of

:02:39.:02:41.

responsibility within the party. And policy direction would suggest

:02:42.:02:46.

some of those radical ideas of both the new intake and actually the old.

:02:46.:02:49.

Radical, right-wing, call it what you will, but many say the time has

:02:49.:02:54.

come for those twin set and pearls. Today the pressure came from

:02:54.:02:58.

someone with working knowledge of both Margaret Thatcher and David

:02:58.:03:02.

Cameron. David Davis, Cameron's rival for the party leadership,

:03:02.:03:06.

speaking at a think-tank, from Thatcher's day. When Margaret

:03:06.:03:09.

Thatcher's Government stopped the steady decline of the British

:03:09.:03:14.

economy, that decline, thought to be inevitable at the time, we

:03:14.:03:18.

forget some of the apparently very risky things she did. So what

:03:18.:03:24.

should we do about it? Let's start with the easy part, no new taxes.

:03:24.:03:30.

And yes, Mr Clegg, I am talking to you. The Government actually needs

:03:30.:03:39.

a coherent, long-term strategy for genuinely lower, flatter taxes.

:03:39.:03:45.

He's in a really bad place. He needs a 7-10% poll lead to form a

:03:46.:03:50.

majority Conservative Government after the next election. It doesn't

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look like there is any chance of doing that on current trends. They

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have to have a message of the kind of blue collar, northern, Midlands

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voters, who Margaret Thatcher managed, at least in the Midlands,

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to keep on her side for three elections. He certainly has to

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listen to what some of the wiser heads in his party are he will

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iting him. That means a radical recasting of the cabinet, getting

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his whips' office in order in the Commons, and getting political

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focus and direction into Downing Street. The Prime Minister is said

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to be alert to all of this, and it is partly why this evening it is a

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racing certainty International Development Secretary, Andrew

:04:27.:04:31.

Mitchell, who ran David Davis's campaign, will move to become Chief

:04:31.:04:35.

Whip. It is partly why ministers, like Northern Ireland Secretary,

:04:35.:04:39.

Owen Paterson, Employment Minister, Chris Grayling, and the current

:04:39.:04:43.

deputy fair chan, Michael Fallon, might all be in line for an

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elevation. The Republican conventions in

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America, and the democratic one this week are being watched, Young

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Conservatives are wondering if their leader will take a leaf out

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of Mitt Romney's book. He hired a young gun with controversial cuts

:05:05.:05:09.

to the state in his back pocket. It was controversial there, but some

:05:09.:05:14.

of our MPs have ideas similar. The Government is bringing forward

:05:14.:05:18.

an economic development bill in the next few days. Much is its own work,

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but some is heavily influenced by new intake Conservative MPs, a

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chunk of whom are due for promotion tomorrow. Liz Truss, in particular,

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is favourite, one of her ideas, already in the policy pot, is to

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deregulate the lower end of the labour market. Mini-jobs, pioneered

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in Germany, would exempt those from tax earning at least �300 a month.

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The Government will announce a further relaxation of planning

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regulation, to galvanise the economy. Something many new MPs

:05:51.:05:54.

have been pushing for. Another idea Hoveing into view, more air

:05:54.:06:00.

capacity in the south-east, again a hobby horse of David Cameron's 2010

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cohort, and something of a philosopher's stone, has gained

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ambassadors in the cabinet, watch out for Justine Greening, she is

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opposed to this. Of course the Prime Minister does not necessarily

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have to tackle any redirection in the shuffle. MPs close to him, such

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as Nick Boles would be in line for that. Whatever he does he has to do

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with the Liberal Democrats, he doesn't have the freedom of his

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backbenchers as he would like F growth is your number one think,

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then you move David Laws into a business department, you have to

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swallow your pride and give Vince Cable a big promotion, perhaps to

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Home Secretary. I would like to see him offer to make William Hague

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Party Chairman, which would go down very well with the members. He

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listens to William Hague. tonight a remind eark at the

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Paralympics of the -- reminder of the Paralympics of the Government's

:06:57.:07:01.

challenge. The first boos we have heard in the Paralympics stadium.

:07:02.:07:06.

Something else to set the scene a pledge Cameron made years ago, he

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said by the end of his parliament a third of ministers would be women,

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tomorrow may go some way to do it hope in the future that female

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outfits aren't such an awedity. -- odddy.

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We have our guests. We have allowed them to keep their phones switched

:07:30.:07:40.

on in case the Prime Minister rings. You haven't had a call? No. Have

:07:40.:07:44.

you had one? No, I must have blotted my copy book with the House

:07:44.:07:50.

of Lords reform, I don't expect one. First off, why is this reshuffle

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happening at all, other than as a reward for towedies? I think we --

:07:57.:07:59.

toadies? I think we ought to recognise that David Cameron did

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the right thing not to reshuffle when you in the media and others

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were prompting him to. He allowed his ministers to settle in to

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deliver the reforms, in welfare, education and healthcare. That was

:08:11.:08:17.

the right strategy. If I was an observer of how people manage an

:08:17.:08:20.

organisation, that is the right thing to do. We are to applaud the

:08:20.:08:24.

Prime Minister because he fails to succumb to media tittle tattle, we

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are supposed to applaud that are we? I'm applauding because he's a

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manager people, he allowed his ministers. What is to be achieved

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by the reshuffle? What is to be achieved by the reshuffle, is to

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make sure where we need to move people, promote people, there has

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been some fantastic backbenchers, you saw some of then on your list,

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Truss, and others, who have done a lot of the thinking for this

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Government, in the different plam fleds and think-tanks. You may life,

:08:57.:09:07.
:09:07.:09:10.

but look at the mini-jobs idea, the idea to allow all sorts of things.

:09:10.:09:14.

There is talk that there is more talent on the backbenches than in

:09:14.:09:18.

Government? That is probably true, we won't find out for some time, he

:09:18.:09:21.

hasn't that many positions to fill. My concern is all the attention is

:09:21.:09:25.

on IRA shuffle, and we ought to be thinking about a re-think. That is

:09:25.:09:28.

my thing. Nothing will be achieved, simply by changing the personnel?

:09:28.:09:33.

Not at all. I want a re-think about where we are going, how we are

:09:34.:09:38.

going to achieve growth, how we are going to instill some demand into

:09:38.:09:42.

the economy. Then you slot people in, who are capable of creating

:09:42.:09:48.

those outcomes. But, of course, he's not actually a free agent in

:09:48.:09:52.

this matter? He ought to be a freer agent than he has proved to be.

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can't even reshuffle the whole of his cabinet, can he? Isn't that a

:09:57.:10:01.

sadness? The liberals are a very small minority of this Government.

:10:01.:10:06.

And many Conservatives believe that very often, too often, the tail has

:10:07.:10:12.

wagged the dog. I would want to see a bit more strength, a bit more

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leadership from David in that respect. Do you think that whatever

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this reshuffle is, that it is going to result in a change of direction?

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Absolutely not. If you look at what you have just been asking Brian

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about, what is this Government delivering? We have capped welfare

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at �26,000, that is a major step. We have tackled public sector

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pensions, another major step. We have tackled tuition fees, another

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major step. We didn't win the election outright. We are in

:10:46.:10:49.

coalition, yet we have delivered at lot of Conservative manifesto, we

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are going in the right direction, nobody said this would be easy.

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This is a long, hard road. I would rather have a leader who is honest

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with the public, and doesn't look at political expediency and winning

:11:01.:11:03.

elections, but says it is a long road, we will go beyond this

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parliament to try to fix the mess we inherited. This is what I'm

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doing to do it. Setting out his programme. Looking at departments

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that really need a change of personnel? The Treasury, the name

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of the game is growth, the name of the game of the economy. You want a

:11:22.:11:25.

new Chancellor of the Exchequer? have already said that. Other

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departments? I would put George as chairman, he has two jobs, let him

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concentrate on one, which is winning the next election, and

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bring, I would bring in Philip Hammond into the Treasury. A man

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who knows business, who has a safe pair of hands, and he's a good

:11:41.:11:44.

economy i. Any other departments needing a kick up the back side?

:11:44.:11:50.

That is up to David, I have my own views. I wouldn't go that far. I'm

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not overly happy with what Vince has done in business, that is up to

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Nick Clegg, sadly. He can't get rite of Vince Cable, can he?

:11:59.:12:03.

might change him for David Laws, who knows. Any other departments

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crying out for a change, Department for International Development, that

:12:07.:12:11.

is all we seem to know about? take Europe away from the Foreign

:12:11.:12:16.

Office, and put that into the Foreign Office. Which departments

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do you think need a kick up the back side? I think if you look at

:12:21.:12:24.

where we have done well, we have done well in education, welfare, we

:12:24.:12:28.

have done well in healthcare. These are areas we have done incredibly

:12:28.:12:33.

well in. There are three areas you think you have done well in? Look

:12:33.:12:37.

at the people in those jobs, look at the ministerial team that

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supports the cabinet, and promote people accordingly. It is not for

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me to sit here and speculate about which people he needs to move

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around. There is plenty of talent in the party. The one thing I can

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tell you is the Conservative Party, both backbench and front bench, is

:12:54.:12:58.

buzzing can ideas and talent. David Cameron is watching, he has

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the message of your intense loyalty, doubtless you have your phone on

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silent, but it will ring shortly. Which Government departments need a

:13:07.:13:11.

change at the top? If I was at the top I would have voted for change

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in the House of Lords, I made my position clear to David Cameron,

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and I held that position. All I would say is he's taking the tough

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decisions, this is really hard, it is very hard to govern at a time

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when there is no money around. are you shaking your head? Because

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we still have �125 billion deficit on our annual budget. Government

:13:31.:13:36.

spending is still increasing. We haven't cut the burden of the

:13:36.:13:39.

overmighty state. These are the areas we need to start working on.

:13:39.:13:43.

And secondly, we need to start putting some demand into the

:13:43.:13:48.

economy, we need to create a greater sense of well being, and it

:13:48.:13:52.

can be done without raising taxes. How many people like you feel like

:13:52.:13:59.

you in the backbenches? More than you would think? I don't know what

:13:59.:14:03.

I think. It could be you and a couple of drinking pals? I guess

:14:03.:14:07.

you think we are a minority, I'm telling you more people than that

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believe it is time for a sea change in terms of the direction of this

:14:12.:14:17.

Government. Is that the way you read it? I am aafraid, I have great

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respect for -- I am afraid, I have great respect for Brian, and he's a

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great businessman. That means he's barking up the wrong tree! He holds

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his position and robustly! decision of who keeps their job,

:14:31.:14:35.

who should lose their's, and who should be given a chance to appear

:14:35.:14:40.

on this programme defending the embarrassing U-turns he has made,

:14:40.:14:45.

has been made all the more difficult, because some of the MPs

:14:45.:14:49.

David Cameron wishes had never been elected are in his cabinet, namely

:14:49.:14:54.

those Liberal Democrats. Our political editor is here. What's

:14:54.:14:58.

happening? You suggested the Prime Minister might be watching. Of all

:14:58.:15:05.

nights tonight he won't be watching. These are traditionally knock

:15:05.:15:10.

tunnel activities. -- knock turnal activities, tomorrow people will

:15:10.:15:14.

find out what jobs they have or haven't got. We know Andrew

:15:14.:15:18.

Mitchell is not the international secretary tomorrow morning he will

:15:18.:15:22.

be the Chief Whip. He's said to be a disciplinarian, he did run David

:15:22.:15:26.

Davis's campaign. It would be the smack of whipping from Andrew

:15:26.:15:35.

Mitchell. Everyone is laughing on that side of the table. We know

:15:35.:15:39.

very little, we know how widespread it will be. There was a rumour this

:15:39.:15:42.

evening that Michael Gove, of all people, because he's so tied into

:15:42.:15:45.

his department, was being moved from education. I rang his people

:15:45.:15:52.

to ask this, they said no, but they did have to check. It is incredibly

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widespread, going all over the scale of Government. There will be

:15:55.:16:01.

lots of new in take MPs, and it will be, they say, a fair few women.

:16:01.:16:05.

This goes right down this reshuffle? Yeah. The key thing

:16:05.:16:08.

about it is that, OK, there might be another one before the next

:16:08.:16:12.

election, but if you want to be bedded in so as you can make a

:16:12.:16:15.

difference before the next election, especially in the public's mind,

:16:15.:16:21.

you probably have to be in Government now, not net next time

:16:21.:16:28.

round. -- Not next time round. new political year coming, and

:16:28.:16:31.

rouseed from hieb operation, our panel, snap, crackle and pop, knife,

:16:31.:16:37.

fork and spoon, whatever they are, William Hague's pal, Danny

:16:37.:16:40.

Finkelstein, Dickie Burnell and Miranda Green, the recovery adviser

:16:40.:16:44.

to Paddy Ashdown. Is this reshuffle worth having? It is not actually

:16:44.:16:48.

about changing the direction of the Government, but trying to make what

:16:48.:16:58.
:16:58.:16:59.

the Government does work. In other words, I don't think he wants

:16:59.:17:02.

people who agree more with him in Government, like Margaret Thatcher,

:17:02.:17:06.

he wants to make his policies stick and be implemented. The talk about

:17:06.:17:09.

Iain Duncan Smith, he has reached the point where he has introduced

:17:09.:17:13.

the reforms, it might be a different person you want to

:17:13.:17:17.

implement the reform tos. You would change the welfare secretary at

:17:17.:17:20.

this point, without necessarily changing the policies. You have a

:17:20.:17:24.

lot of experience, you came into cabinet on a reshuffle didn't you?

:17:24.:17:27.

I came in when Gordon Brown became Prime Minister, a new Government.

:17:27.:17:31.

You have got experience in Government of reshuffles, what do

:17:31.:17:38.

they generally achieve? Some of them annoy lots of people to no

:17:38.:17:43.

great end. There is lots of easy ways of doing, that for example,

:17:43.:17:46.

pretending people they haven't been fired, and they have been. They

:17:46.:17:51.

turn up thinking they are envoy on clips to the Cabinet Office, and

:17:51.:17:54.

they are not. If you are firing someone, you should be Hon e. What

:17:54.:17:59.

they are about, I agree with Danny, is they are about making the

:17:59.:18:03.

Government better, if they succeed. To do that you have to work out

:18:03.:18:08.

where you want to get votes and score some goals, and put those

:18:08.:18:13.

goal scorers, the Michael Goves, and you want the issue out of the

:18:13.:18:17.

news, for us at one stage was social security, so you sent for

:18:17.:18:20.

Alistair Darling. Here it may be that dealt, the Conservatives might

:18:20.:18:24.

think we won't score points on it, let's take it out of the news. You

:18:24.:18:28.

look for a politician who can gently take it out of the headlines.

:18:28.:18:31.

Miranda, the Liberal Democrats have been having their own separate

:18:31.:18:35.

reshuffle, will they? Yes, I think the reshuffle is much less

:18:35.:18:38.

significant for the Liberal Democrats, because there are

:18:38.:18:42.

relatively few at the senior level. We expect them to stay put. To have

:18:42.:18:47.

David Laws back, something expected, would be very good for the Liberal

:18:47.:18:51.

Democrats. It is a three-card trick rather than a reshuffle? It is

:18:51.:18:54.

about party management too. It is, it is about having your strongest

:18:54.:18:58.

people in the right place. ordinary civilian, what does "party

:18:58.:19:02.

management" mean? It is about the authority of the people at the top.

:19:02.:19:06.

That is slightly lacking, would be a polite way of saying it, over the

:19:06.:19:09.

last few months. There is always violence where there are a lot of

:19:09.:19:12.

young people, the Conservative Party has a huge in intake, it has

:19:13.:19:17.

to be able to manage it. I think change in the whip's office,

:19:17.:19:22.

everyone says Andrew Mitchell is a disciplinarian, there needs to be

:19:22.:19:25.

subtle techniques used. You can't whip this Conservative intake in

:19:25.:19:28.

the way you have been able to previous intake. You have to earn

:19:28.:19:34.

the respect and loyalty of them. You want to maintain hope as long

:19:34.:19:38.

as possible, when people lose hope, they decide to come on and say the

:19:38.:19:43.

Government they are a member of is terrible. That is good, right?

:19:43.:19:46.

you, but not for David Cameron. Someone who has been fired before

:19:47.:19:51.

and behaved and come back, someone overlooked, suddenly plucked from

:19:51.:19:55.

Select Committee obscurity, and suddenly everyone else not promoted

:19:55.:19:57.

might think it could be them, if they behave better. And Gordon

:19:57.:20:02.

Brown was very, very good at this. This internal detail of party

:20:02.:20:05.

management, which just gives you those five or ten extra people who

:20:05.:20:10.

will support you when the going gets tough. If there is the dissent,

:20:10.:20:15.

I'm sorry? I think Danny is right to emphasise this idea of delivery,

:20:15.:20:18.

this Government is at a stage where, now, it has to prove it is not just

:20:19.:20:23.

about ideas. Obviously what your MPs were saying is all this

:20:23.:20:27.

excitement about fresh ideas from the backbenches, but you also have

:20:27.:20:30.

to show the things you said you were committed to do in 2010 you

:20:30.:20:33.

have actually done, when you come to fight the next election.

:20:34.:20:37.

reason why the delivery matters, is no-one has ever heard of any of

:20:37.:20:41.

these people. When you move one person and swap them with another,

:20:41.:20:44.

the general public unaware you have done t they don't know the person

:20:44.:20:48.

in the job in the first place. There is no point in trying to

:20:48.:20:51.

achieve freshness, since most of these details escape most people.

:20:51.:20:54.

You have to achieve the policy objectives, that is what you are

:20:54.:21:00.

after, getting a better Government. Cheryl Gillan, sacked, shock, no-

:21:00.:21:04.

one responds, but he cannot, effectively, do what they were

:21:04.:21:06.

saying over there, is change the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The

:21:06.:21:12.

Chancellor of the Exchequer is his policy, isn't he? I thought that

:21:12.:21:17.

was hilarious in the making up of their own Government, it was not

:21:17.:21:21.

much of a guide. If David Cameron wants to change the economic policy

:21:21.:21:23.

of the Government, the fundamental economic policy of the Government,

:21:23.:21:26.

then it is worth changing the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he

:21:26.:21:29.

doesn't want to, and I don't think he does want to, he wouldn't want

:21:29.:21:33.

to move his closest political ally out of the job where the two of

:21:33.:21:36.

them can control the policy, if he doesn't want to change the policy.

:21:36.:21:41.

So that's the reason why he wouldn't follow that advice. Brian

:21:41.:21:44.

Binly, I don't know what he thinks the policy of the Government should

:21:44.:21:46.

be, whatever it is, he thinks it should be different. In those

:21:46.:21:50.

circumstance, of course it would make sense to change the Chancellor.

:21:50.:21:54.

It doesn't if you are not going to change it. The rest of it doesn't

:21:54.:21:57.

matter? It does put the emphasis on what the Government is doing for a

:21:57.:22:00.

bit. And a lot of politics is about trying to make the media, and the

:22:00.:22:03.

opposition talk about the things you are doing, rather than the

:22:03.:22:07.

things that the opposition wants to talk about. At least for the next

:22:07.:22:11.

few days, they will want to say X is moved to Y, because they want to

:22:11.:22:14.

put an emphasis on standards in primary care in health. That is the

:22:14.:22:18.

kind of thing which the rest of the time is very hard to get up. It is

:22:18.:22:25.

a bit of dynamism, but most of all it is getting people who know about

:22:25.:22:28.

a particular issue and who can score goals in those jobs, and

:22:28.:22:32.

people who want to turn down an issue and score goals there too.

:22:32.:22:35.

There is the larger problem, which is David Cameron's problem with his

:22:35.:22:39.

own backbenchers, and this constant blue-on-blue attacks. There is a

:22:39.:22:48.

major question mark over whether this achieve will achieve the sort

:22:48.:22:52.

of changes, the whip's office changing that we're talking about,

:22:52.:22:56.

and stop the backbench sniping, it is gradually weaken, it is death by

:22:56.:23:00.

a thousand cuts of the Prime Minister's own authority. It has

:23:00.:23:06.

been done to the Prime Minister, Iain Duncan Smith, and William

:23:06.:23:10.

Hague, and now David Cameron. If they continue to do that it would

:23:10.:23:13.

be very damaging. It is partly a question of party management,

:23:13.:23:16.

partly it is a question for the Members of Parliament, and partly

:23:16.:23:20.

it is a question for party management. In so far as party

:23:20.:23:23.

management, you have to have the right chairman, Chief Whip and

:23:23.:23:28.

strategy for dealing with the parliamentary party. That is a very

:23:28.:23:32.

important part of the reshuffle, even though for the public it has

:23:32.:23:38.

no interest. What will it do to the opposition, if the Government has a

:23:38.:23:42.

reshuffle, does the opposition think they need a reshuffle too?

:23:42.:23:46.

Quite often the leader of the opposition would delay their

:23:46.:23:49.

reshuffle until they have seen what they are pairing up against. Ed

:23:49.:23:53.

Miliband had a reshuffle recently that went well. I think they will

:23:53.:23:57.

stick where they are. It gives them an opportunity to rejuvinate in a

:23:57.:24:00.

few months time if they want. To I think they will stick where they

:24:00.:24:04.

are. They have been pretty good at opposing in the last year, they

:24:04.:24:08.

have given themselves a good mark on. That I think they would be

:24:08.:24:12.

pretty happy with the team they have got. It worked perfectly well

:24:12.:24:16.

last time, I can't see why he would bother to change. He would be

:24:16.:24:19.

better to stick with what he has. If it doesn't make much sense of

:24:19.:24:25.

refreshing the Government in terms of new faces, it makes less sense

:24:25.:24:28.

to reshuffle. In opposition you have one researcher, and you have

:24:28.:24:32.

no idea what the debate you are doing that afternoon, if you are in

:24:32.:24:36.

the job a couple of years, at least you have done it once or twice

:24:36.:24:40.

before. If you look at the trouble the Government is in, George

:24:40.:24:45.

Osborne goes to the Paralympics, a kind crowd, and he is booed? When

:24:45.:24:49.

you have no growth and mishandle aspect of the budget. You will have

:24:49.:24:55.

that sort of trouble. Of It won't be saved by a reshuffle? No, the

:24:55.:24:58.

thing that will save the Chancellor of the Exchequer is if his strategy

:24:58.:25:01.

works, he believes it will. There is a lot of reason to agree with

:25:01.:25:06.

that, but not everyone shares that view. We will see. If you are going

:25:06.:25:10.

to change the strategy of the Government towards the economy,

:25:10.:25:14.

fundamentally, you are going to move away from austerity, you can't

:25:14.:25:17.

keep the same Chancellor. If you are going to, it doesn't make sense

:25:17.:25:20.

to change the Chancellor. Obviously the Prime Minister doesn't intend

:25:20.:25:23.

to change his strategy. Thank you very much.

:25:23.:25:27.

Rape, it is one of those crimes which we all think we know when we

:25:27.:25:32.

hear about it. Sexual assault is easy enough to define, and

:25:32.:25:36.

improving police and judicial practices, has been one of the ways

:25:36.:25:40.

in which society has tried to rectify an historic prejudice

:25:40.:25:43.

against women. Suddenly increasing numbers of us are finding it harder

:25:43.:25:48.

to explain precisely what rape is. Increasing numbers of us are making

:25:48.:25:58.
:25:58.:26:00.

excuses for male violence. No everybody needs to be asked.

:26:01.:26:08.

legitimate rape, the female body...Once Upon a time, "no" meant

:26:08.:26:14.

"no", now both left and right hear tones of ambiguity.

:26:14.:26:18.

Allegations of sexual assault and rape against Julian Assange have

:26:18.:26:28.
:26:28.:26:29.

fuelled the debate. Not everybody needs to be asked prior to each

:26:29.:26:32.

incertifictaion, some people believe that when you go to bed

:26:32.:26:36.

with somebody, take off your clothes, and have sex with them,

:26:36.:26:42.

and then fall asleep, you are already in the sex game with them.

:26:42.:26:47.

The Respect MP, George Galloway, has refused to apologise, insisting

:26:47.:26:51.

the allegations since Assange weren't rape, as most people

:26:51.:26:55.

understood it. Across the Atlantic, a right-wing Congressman, used,

:26:55.:27:01.

what we thought was biology, to redefine the offence. If it is a

:27:01.:27:05.

legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole

:27:05.:27:09.

thing down. Let's assume that didn't work or something. Even

:27:10.:27:14.

feminists are divided. The writer, Naomi Woolf was quick to pick holes

:27:14.:27:19.

in the Assange case, claiming it to be a politically motivated witch-

:27:19.:27:25.

hunt, despite him refusing to face questioning in Sweden. Woolf also

:27:25.:27:33.

argues that his and he accusers should be denied anonymity. -- that

:27:33.:27:40.

his accusers should be denied anonymity. Why has rape suddenly

:27:40.:27:50.

become so contentious. With husband is the feminist writer Naomi Woolf,

:27:50.:27:54.

author of Vagina, a new autobiography. Why is that becoming

:27:54.:28:00.

so talked about, as an issue? Sexual assault, because there are

:28:00.:28:03.

high-profile cases. It is clear, and now I understand this better,

:28:03.:28:08.

when women make too many strides forward, rape and discourse about

:28:09.:28:12.

rape is used to undermine them, call them into question. You have

:28:12.:28:18.

two separate issues here, it seems to me. Your video introduced the

:28:18.:28:24.

Assange case, just for the forward, I'm not saying those women should

:28:24.:28:28.

be "unmasked", I'm saying it service rapists to have rape

:28:28.:28:32.

prosecutions to be prosecuted under the cover of anonymity all together,

:28:32.:28:38.

it gives impunity to prosecutor, let me give you statistics. The law

:28:39.:28:44.

was changed in 1976 in order that woman would feel more comfortable?

:28:44.:28:49.

-- women would feel more comfortable? The upshot is 6% of

:28:49.:28:53.

reported rapes, that is a small fraction of all rapes, ever get

:28:53.:28:56.

convicted. But that's what I really want to stress. Are you expecting

:28:56.:29:02.

women to be willing to testify in open court, with their full

:29:02.:29:06.

identity disclosed, in a case which may or may not be successful?

:29:06.:29:11.

isn't what I came here to talk about. But I do think, like many

:29:11.:29:14.

feminists, that rape shouldn't be stigmatised any differently from

:29:14.:29:19.

any kind of assault. Just like we expect, allegations of beating

:29:19.:29:23.

someone up, or allegations of fraud, to have both the victim and the

:29:23.:29:28.

perpetrator stand up and say this happened, that's what justice is.

:29:28.:29:33.

And more importantly, it stigmatises women, ultimately, and

:29:33.:29:39.

allows impunity. It allows impunity for rapes and prosecutors, here and

:29:39.:29:43.

in Sweden. The reason I know there is something very corrupt about the

:29:43.:29:46.

prosecution of the Assange case, I'm not talking about the women now,

:29:46.:29:50.

we don't know enough. Is it is so profoundly different from, and I

:29:50.:29:54.

have worked with rape victims for many, many years, from the way rape

:29:54.:29:58.

is prosecuted for any other victim in Sweden. Right now in Sweden, it

:29:58.:30:03.

has the highest rape rate in women, the lowest prosecution rate,

:30:03.:30:08.

Amnesty International says Swedish rapists enjoy impunity, there are

:30:08.:30:16.

600 women in Sweden waiting for shelter from vicious assailants and

:30:16.:30:20.

their children. When I called the Stockholm Government police hot-

:30:20.:30:25.

line, there is no answering machine. The idea this is a typical

:30:25.:30:31.

prosecution. Nobody has suggested it is a typical prosecution, but

:30:31.:30:36.

why shouldn't one prosecution go ahead if the crime is alleged, just

:30:36.:30:39.

because various others haven't gone ahead? There should be justice for

:30:39.:30:42.

rape victims, but it should be a single standard of justice. It

:30:42.:30:47.

insults the thousands of rape victims in Sweden, let me give you

:30:47.:30:51.

an example, when I called the Rape Crisis line in Stockholm, which no

:30:51.:30:54.

reporter seems to do is call the people in the frontlines with rape.

:30:54.:30:58.

They said that in Stockholm the most common kind of rape is exactly

:30:58.:31:06.

like the Assange case, they meet a man on-line, go to his apartment,

:31:06.:31:11.

consensual sex turns non-consensual, the volunteers said that is exactly

:31:11.:31:17.

the kind of scenario that the police won't prosecute, because the

:31:17.:31:21.

woman is not considered "clean ". There isn't a single standard for

:31:21.:31:24.

prosecution here. This is such a deviation from the way most rape

:31:24.:31:32.

victims in Sweden are dismissed, disregarded, I think it is

:31:32.:31:37.

insulting to rape victims. there grey areas, George Galloway

:31:37.:31:41.

says if you get into bed and have sex with them, and wake up the next

:31:41.:31:44.

morning and that person is attempting to have sex with you,

:31:44.:31:48.

without you having said yes, is that rape? At that point, if you

:31:48.:31:54.

are not fearful, or frightened of violence, you say, no, and that is

:31:54.:31:59.

a clear communication. Is it rape? You need to get consent, that is

:31:59.:32:04.

the law. You need to know you don't have consent for it to be rape, and

:32:04.:32:08.

there has to be a broken social contract. The law is you have to

:32:08.:32:14.

know you have active consent. is no ambiguity about this? This

:32:14.:32:18.

situation? Rape is rape? Look, it is very important for women, and

:32:18.:32:22.

men, who feel like they are being assaulted, to express they have a

:32:22.:32:26.

lack of consent. Absolutely, categorically. I think that's

:32:26.:32:30.

critical. Can I just pivot to something more important, we can

:32:30.:32:35.

spend all day talking about grey areas. More important is why are

:32:35.:32:39.

women being raped, why does society disregard it so much? I know the

:32:39.:32:43.

answer now, which I didn't before I did the research in my book, which

:32:43.:32:46.

has a chapter on rape, which goes right to this question. It turns

:32:46.:32:52.

out there is a lot of new cutting- edge data, which is astonishing on

:32:52.:32:56.

what the vagina does and what it is for. It is not just a sex organ,

:32:56.:33:03.

but there is a brain, vagina connection, which neuroscience is

:33:03.:33:06.

documenting it is one neurosis them. What happens to the vagina happens

:33:06.:33:13.

to the brain. On a positive note, when a woman is well treated and

:33:13.:33:21.

respected sexually, I'm going somewhere important, it boosts

:33:21.:33:26.

dopamean and other toxins in her brain, which leads to sense of

:33:26.:33:30.

connection, creativity, and other good things. On the dark side, it

:33:30.:33:35.

explains so much misogyny, when you traumatise a woman's vagina, in new

:33:35.:33:39.

ways that have been undocumented previously in recent years, you are

:33:39.:33:43.

traumatising her brain, even if there is no violence. We saw

:33:43.:33:47.

earlier legitimate rape, Neanderthals think of legitimate

:33:47.:33:50.

rape as rape where there is violence and a threat of violence.

:33:50.:33:55.

This new neuroscience shows that any rape, which always has fear, is

:33:55.:33:59.

traumatic to a woman's brain and body for years. Lasting harm

:33:59.:34:04.

changes the system, constellations of systems that seem unrelated to

:34:05.:34:08.

the original rape. Thank you very much. The people of Britain are, we

:34:08.:34:11.

are told by our Government, thrilled that Egypt has moved from

:34:11.:34:15.

dictatorship to a former imperfect democracy. Yet our Government

:34:15.:34:18.

doesn't seem to be putting its money where its mouth it is, or

:34:18.:34:22.

rather it is not putting the money stolen by the dictator where its

:34:22.:34:28.

mouth it. Once a self-respecting clep toe maniac has everything

:34:28.:34:34.

sorted at home. Everything small men equipped with toenail extractor,

:34:34.:34:40.

he seeks a bolt-hole and shelter for his loot, for Hosni Mubarak,

:34:40.:34:44.

that is what London offered. We don't seem to be in a rush to track

:34:44.:34:54.
:34:54.:34:55.

it all down. They wanted bread, freedom, but also their money back.

:34:56.:35:00.

Reports of the tens of billions of dollars their dictator, Hosni

:35:00.:35:06.

Mubarak, and his friends, had allegedly stolen from Egypt, drove

:35:06.:35:09.

the revolutionaries on Tahrir Square last year, into a white heat

:35:09.:35:14.

of fury. After revolution, Britain was one

:35:14.:35:18.

of the first countries to propose freezing that wealth. Exciting

:35:18.:35:22.

great hopes in Egypt. We have also received a request from the

:35:22.:35:26.

Egyptian Government to freeze the asset of several former Egyptian

:35:26.:35:32.

officials. We will, of course co- operate with this request, if there

:35:32.:35:36.

is any evidence of illegality or misuse of state assets, we will

:35:37.:35:41.

take firm and prompt action. But a year-and-a-half on, not a

:35:41.:35:46.

penny has been returned. Egypt, is so angry, it is suing

:35:46.:35:50.

Britain. A country, it now believes, is willfully concealing its

:35:50.:35:56.

billions. TRANSLATION: We are in Egypt, but

:35:56.:36:02.

our money is in the UK. How can we get it back if Britain won't co-

:36:02.:36:08.

operate? Mubarak's billions, they believe, are somewhere here. It

:36:08.:36:12.

is no secret that London is one of the places that the Egyptian elite

:36:12.:36:18.

most likes to keep and console their wealth. Yet the UK has frozen

:36:18.:36:22.

a mere �85 million worth of asset, linked to Mubarak and his

:36:22.:36:27.

associates. Is that, as many believe, a fraction of the ill-

:36:27.:36:31.

gotten gains hidden here. If so, why has Britain been so slow to

:36:31.:36:37.

trace the rest of the money. Its apparent inaction proved by

:36:37.:36:44.

documents Newsnight was able to obtain, within minutes on-line.

:36:44.:36:48.

Those clues led us through one of the Egyptian elite's favourite

:36:48.:36:53.

haunts, London's Belgravia, to assets the UK authorities have

:36:53.:36:57.

either ignored or failed to discover 28 Wilton Place,

:36:57.:37:02.

conveniently around the corner from Harrods, was the much-loved London

:37:02.:37:08.

home of President Mubarak's younger son, Gamal, Playboy, businessman,

:37:08.:37:12.

deputy head of the ruling party. His name was prominent on the list

:37:12.:37:16.

of Egyptians, whose assets were frozen last year. But this very

:37:16.:37:20.

substantial asset, worth about �10 million, wasn't subject to that

:37:20.:37:28.

order. The Land Registry title shows it belongs to a firm in the

:37:28.:37:33.

tax haven of Panama. The reason, perhaps, there is no reference to

:37:33.:37:37.

any freezing order, though the sanctions should apply to any

:37:37.:37:41.

property the named individual benefits from, regardless of the

:37:41.:37:45.

legal ownership. Just around the corner, the former office of

:37:45.:37:49.

Medinvest Associates, an investment company, belonging to a Cypriot

:37:49.:37:55.

firm Gamal Mubarak was involved with. A company's house document --

:37:55.:38:02.

Companies House document, easily available on-line, shows it

:38:02.:38:07.

dissolved itself in February last year, it operated 11 months after

:38:07.:38:13.

sanctions were imposed. Tim Daniel, one of the City's

:38:14.:38:19.

leading asset tracers, is astonished. He is a lawyer, who

:38:19.:38:24.

hunts down dirty money worldwide. He helped Nigeria recover millions

:38:24.:38:30.

stolen by its dictator, Sani Abacha. What does he make of the documents

:38:30.:38:32.

from Gamal's former company, Medinvest Associates? Whoever

:38:33.:38:37.

lodged the stock has put a note saying in addition to the two

:38:37.:38:43.

axiveties, the software company et cetera, they were also involved --

:38:43.:38:47.

activities, the software company et cetera, they were involved in

:38:47.:38:50.

providing credit to financial institutions. There you are, you

:38:50.:38:54.

have an active business, through which Gamal was actively trading,

:38:54.:38:58.

you might have thought that the company would be added to the list

:38:58.:39:02.

of entities affected by the sanctions. That hasn't happened.

:39:02.:39:05.

further short walk, prompted by another very simple web search,

:39:06.:39:10.

brings me to a third asset that has escaped the freeze, linked to

:39:10.:39:15.

another prominent Egyptian on the sanctions list. This Companies

:39:15.:39:19.

House entry, shows the wife of Mubarak's Housing Minister, was

:39:19.:39:24.

able to register a new firm at this address, seven months after the

:39:24.:39:30.

freezing order against her. We find, interestingly, this company, was

:39:30.:39:35.

authorised on the 1st November last year. The sanctions list was put

:39:35.:39:40.

out in March last year. That's extraordinary, somebody on the

:39:40.:39:42.

sanctions list, months after the sanctions list comes out, is about

:39:42.:39:50.

to open a company? Register a company. I mean, you know, one

:39:50.:39:53.

wornders if any questions were asked at the company -- wonders if

:39:54.:40:00.

if any questions were asked on the companies registering, about how

:40:00.:40:05.

are you opening another company. This lady was a resident here in

:40:05.:40:09.

Chelsea. What is the reason for the inaction? One problem is that it is

:40:09.:40:14.

not always clear in Britain who is responsible for tracing stolen

:40:14.:40:19.

assets from abroad. Or what should trigger such action. When the

:40:19.:40:23.

Treasury freezes foreign assets, it is up to the banks, and other

:40:23.:40:27.

financial institutions, to implement the order. They were

:40:27.:40:30.

heavily criticised last year by the Financial Services Authority, for

:40:30.:40:37.

of theen failing to do so. Further police -- for of theen failing to

:40:37.:40:45.

do so -- often failing to do it. It sometimes only comes from mutual

:40:45.:40:48.

legal assistance, from those requesting the recovery. They have

:40:48.:40:53.

to be specific. Is the UK, which has all the expertise and resources

:40:53.:40:58.

to trace money, simply using the law as an excuse to do nothing. Not

:40:58.:41:03.

even to freeze funds, which should require a lower burden of proof,

:41:03.:41:09.

than confiscating or returning them. On the Nile, they can't understand

:41:09.:41:12.

why Britain's asking Egypt, recovering from decades of

:41:12.:41:18.

dictatorship, to provide the leads in this investigation. Why it is

:41:18.:41:23.

parrying Cairo's many requests for help, with demands for more

:41:23.:41:28.

information. Britain, citing data protection laws, won't even tell

:41:28.:41:32.

Assem al-Gohary, responsible for recovering stolen asset, what money

:41:32.:41:36.

it has already frozen. Now he's taking the UK Government to court

:41:36.:41:43.

in London, to try to find out. TRANSLATION: The British Government

:41:43.:41:47.

is obliged by law to help us. But it doesn't want to make any effort

:41:47.:41:52.

at all to recover the money. It just says, give us evidence. Is

:41:52.:41:57.

that reasonable? We are in Egypt, how can we search for money in the

:41:57.:42:07.
:42:07.:42:07.

UK? Surprisingly, there is another country that is certainly stirring

:42:07.:42:11.

itself to implement those agreements. A country where you

:42:11.:42:17.

might least expect movement to recover ill-gotten gains, a country

:42:17.:42:20.

burdened with a terrible reputation for concealing them. Switzerland,

:42:20.:42:26.

long known for the discretion of its bankers, is the perfect place

:42:26.:42:30.

for dictators and tycoons to squirrel away their assets, and it

:42:30.:42:34.

is now trying to reinvent itself as a model of financial integrity. As

:42:34.:42:40.

a world leader in the hunt for dirty money. Switzerland's federal

:42:40.:42:44.

Government, a traditionally weak institution, is using all its power

:42:44.:42:51.

to change the country's image. also published a communique, a

:42:51.:42:57.

press release...Its Chief agent in the struggle is this man from the

:42:57.:43:00.

Foreign Ministry. Immediate low after President Mubarak was

:43:00.:43:05.

overthrown, on the 11st February last year, he activated a decree,

:43:05.:43:10.

freezing the assets of the dictator and those around him. 37 days

:43:10.:43:14.

before Britain and the rest of the EU took a similar step. I was

:43:14.:43:18.

sitting here, when I heard the news that President Mubarak had left his

:43:19.:43:24.

palace in Cairo, I had a phone call with the President of Switzerland.

:43:24.:43:29.

Because she had the power to freeze the money that may have been here

:43:29.:43:34.

in Switzerland. And we could then act within half an hour, the money

:43:34.:43:39.

was effectively frozen in Switzerland. Within half an hour of

:43:39.:43:43.

Mubarak leaving his Presidential Palace? Yes, within half an hour.

:43:43.:43:48.

Since then, Switzerland, with more than 20 investigators on the case,

:43:48.:43:52.

has doubd the amount of money frozen here. On the day Mubarak --

:43:52.:43:59.

doubled the amount of money frozen her. On the day Mubarak fell they

:43:59.:44:05.

froze �270 million in asset, that has risen to �470 million. In the

:44:05.:44:08.

UK, �85 million, no increase since last year.

:44:08.:44:13.

The Foreign Office, says it is doing what it can to help Egypt.

:44:13.:44:17.

But UK law is different to Swiss law, and there are many legal

:44:18.:44:22.

problems. We have a duty, both to the people who are ostensibly own

:44:22.:44:27.

the money, as well as to those who are pursuing it, we have to make

:44:27.:44:32.

sure that proper legal processes have been gone through, so that a

:44:32.:44:36.

decision ultimately made is just and right. We will trace and return

:44:36.:44:40.

assets wen when it is legally right to do so. -- when it is legally

:44:40.:44:44.

right to do so. We have no vested interest in doing anything else.

:44:44.:44:48.

The Government said it can't help if the necessary Government from

:44:48.:44:51.

Egypt isn't available? We have been proactive in trying to help the

:44:51.:45:00.

Egyptian authorities what they need to do to identify and find things.

:45:00.:45:04.

But recovering Egypt's stolen wealth, isn't only just about

:45:04.:45:08.

justice, it is about development. The revolution hasn't ended the

:45:08.:45:12.

country's festering social inequalities. But Mubarak's

:45:12.:45:19.

millions might. Every day they ask me, are we getting back our money.

:45:19.:45:27.

Is the west going to steal our money and keep it in their banks?

:45:27.:45:31.

Britain says it is doing a lot to support Egypt's fragile new

:45:31.:45:34.

democracy. It is the largest foreign direct investor in the

:45:34.:45:41.

country. But that doesn't solve the issue, they say, here of promises

:45:41.:45:47.

not kept. We are disappointed by Mr Cameron, we are disappointed by our

:45:47.:45:51.

Government also. But we think that Mr Cameron can do a lot for us. If

:45:51.:45:56.

they have the political will to do it, they will help us. And if they

:45:56.:46:03.

don't have the political well, they will use this -- will they will use

:46:03.:46:10.

this legal procedures and so on to do nothing. That's about it for

:46:10.:46:13.

tonight. Almost all of tomorrow morning's newspapers have the

:46:13.:46:19.

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