Browse content similar to 05/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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He's gone, nearly, Abu Hamza is tonight being deported to America, | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
to face terrorism charges. This is the scene now at an airbase | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
in Suffolk, where two American planes are set to take off with | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
Hamza and four other accused. But Hamza avoided extradition for eight | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
years. How did that happen? We will discuss that with the Conservative | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
MP and, in his first interview, Hamza's barrister. | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
The BBC is in the firing line, again, this time for helping its | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
presenters avoid tax. I will be asking a senior BBC | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
executive, why it is allowed to happen. Nothing we do is designed | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
to enable either individuals or the BBC to avoid paying tax. And they | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
were beaten, raped, castrated, by the British authorities in Kenya. | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
Now they have they have won the right to sue the British Government. | :00:59. | :01:09. | |
:01:09. | :01:11. | ||
What other chances have the -- have the victims of Cologne yum rule of | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
-- colonial rule have of achieving justice. | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
Justice delayed is justice denied, goes the legal saying. By that | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
definition, the European Court of Human Rights and British courts | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
have manifestly denied justice. It has taken eight years to extradite | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
the radical Muslim cleric, Abu Hamza, to the United States. | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
Tonight, police removed Hamza and four other defendants from Long | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
Lartin Prison, and put them on to two planes set for America. But the | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
case has raised serious questions about the extradition process, and | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
severely test Britain's relationship to the European Court. | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
This report contains flash photography. | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
Just hours after his appeal failed, Abu Hamza was on his way from Long | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
Lartin, maximum security prison, in the West Midlands, to an airfield | :02:00. | :02:09. | |
and a US pen tensionry. Penetenary. One of the most | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
notorious figures in Britain, described by his own lawyers as a | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
pantomime villain, was finally leaving the country. Soon, Abu | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
Hamza and the other four account ofs will be on their way, flying | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
Con Air to the United States. In a US Department of justice plane with | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
US federal marshalls on board. It is many years since the extradition | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
period, why has it taken so long. From the 1990s, among his own | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
followers, he called for violence. Just do it, anything will help the | :02:44. | :02:53. | |
infad da do it, if it is pain do it, if it is ambush, if it is anything | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
poisonous, poison them. television interviews, he refused | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
to condemn Al-Qaeda's bombings of US embassies in Africa. | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
REPORTER: You support the message of killing 200 people in order to | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
send a message? They were not meant to be murdered. You repudiate the | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
attack, you say it was wrong? No I don't say it was wrong. In 200, | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
there was seven arrests at Finsbury Park Mosque, where he preached, | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
police found a stun gun, replica firearms, and CS gas cannister. | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
Just over a year later, in 2004, Abu Hamza was arrested on a US | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
extradition warrant, charges included setting up a training camp | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
in Oregon, and a kidnapping in Yemen. In October 2004 he was | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
charged in the UK with 15 offences under the Terrorism Act, that | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
halted the process. Found guilty, he was imprisoned in 2006. It is | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
largely waste of time, though it was very good lawyers' fees, of | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
course. He should have been sent to the United States. There, perhaps, | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
his defence lawyers would have got him off, so be it. What is it with | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
British lawyers, British judges, British prosecutors, I don't know, | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
nobody knows, that they think justice delayed is something that | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
they can accept. In May 2007, the extradition began again, with a | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
preliminary hearing in London. His lawyers went to the European Court | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
of Human Rights, that halted the process, it took until 2010 for the | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
first hearing. Many thousands of cases have flooded in, in | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
particular from Eastern Europe, in countries such as Russia, Turkey, | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
Romania and Poland. The court is struggling with a very large | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
backlog of cases, something like 80,000, depending on which figures | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
you look at. The court is aunch struggling t has limited resource - | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
- often struggling, it has limited resources, some of the cases have | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
very complex. That tends to slow up proceedings, to some extent. They | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
delivered their ver vibgt in April 20 -- verdict in April 2012 and | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
turned down the appeal against it. They said the conditions would not | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
be degrading. Yet lawyers for Abu Hamza and the other defendant went | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
back to the British High Court. That it has taken so long, has | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
angered the head of the justice system itself. As he made clear | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
last week. I'm not going to comment about an | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
individual case, but any case that takes eight years, through a whole | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
series of judicial processs to come to a conclusion, and you have made | :05:35. | :05:43. | |
the point, that it hasn't yet come to a conclusion, is a source of | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
real fury to me. One veteran MP says it's time for parliament to | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
get involved. I think the Justice Select Committee should be looking | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
at why it is that these incredible delays are there. What is the extra | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
protection that alleged terrorists, terrorists, and convicted | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
terrorists have, why is it that QCs and judges bend over backwards. It | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
is time for a proper explanation. Most MPs are terrified to mention | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
or criticise judges n this case it is overdue that we have a proper | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
parliamentary examination of why justice is so delayed in this area | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
of law and courts. Abu Hamza himself, will soon have left the | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
country. But the questions raised by his extradition remain. | :06:32. | :06:39. | |
Joining me in the studio is Conservative MP Mark Reckless, who | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
sits on the Home Affairs Select Committee, and in his first | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
interview, Abu Hamza's lawyer, Alan Jones QC. You are the man who | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
represents Abu Hamza what has been his reaction tonight to this | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
verdict? I haven't spoken to him today at all. I think he was | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
expecting this. In fact, we were all expecting it. I think it has | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
been clear since the European Court of Human Rights made its decision | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
in April, that it was final. And nobody expected the Home Office to | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
conduct, what we thought were the necessary medical tests, to | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
determine whether he was fit to be extradite. You can't seriously have | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
thought you were going to succeed with today's appeal, it was, in | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
effect, a delaying tactic? No, we had a consultant psychiatrist, who | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
gave his opinion to the Home Office, on the 10th of August this year, | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
that there had been a deterioration in Abu Hamza's mental condition. | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
Attributable to sleep deprivation for eight years. He has been kept | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
in conditions of utmost severity in Belmarsh Prison, with very severe | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
disability. His recommendation was there was an MRI scan, which the | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
Home Office ignored. I don't think those are the main points. I would | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
like to deal with the question of delay, which you have been | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
discussing. Of course, there has been formidable delay. The point | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
which has not been made, and ought to be made loudly and clearly, that | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
Abu Hamza ought to have been tried in this jurisdiction for the crimes | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
alleged against him. We will come to that. But we have the Lord Chief | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
Justice saying now that your achievement here, the eight years | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
of delay, are a source of real fury to him. Surely now, we all have to | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
accept the law here has been made to look like an ass? There are very | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
serious faults in the way extradition proceedings are handled. | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
Don't call it an achievement to delay for eight years. The delay | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
has been built in by Abu Hamza serving a sentence of imprisonment, | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
and criminal proceedings brought in this country in 2004. That caused | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
the extradition proceedings to be interrupted until 2007. The | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
proceedings themselves took place between 2007 and June of 2008, and | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
since then, the delays have been cued in the European Court of Human | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
Rights -- caused in the European Court of Human Rights, where Abu | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
Hamza's complaint of held admissible in part, as were those | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
of the other defendants. It was treated with enormous significance | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
and importance by the European Court of Human Rights, until the | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
appeal was dismissed in this year. Det lays are endemic of the | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
extradition -- delays are endemic of the extradition process. How we | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
sought it out in Europe, I don't know, that court is overburdened | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
with work. This is a consequence of using extradition matters instead | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
of trying the matters as they should have been tried in this | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
jurisdiction. We will come back to that. Stay with us, please. You sit | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
on the Home Affairs Select Committee, you too have met the man, | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
Abu Hamza, you met him in prison, what is your reaction to seeing him | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
arrive just now to get on a plane to the United States? I think most | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
people in the country, at last, it has taken such a long time. It has | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
been a lot of money, including tax- payers' money spent, and finally | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
this extradition is now going ahead. The delays inherent in this process | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
are because we have the European Convention of Human Rights, | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
incorporated, for a decade, into our domestic law. Our own courts, | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
to the highest level, rule on that, and say whether it is Abu Hamza, or | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
anyone else, that they can be deported. We then wait for this | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
separate process, for the Strasbourg court to rule on | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
something our own courts have already determined on the basis of | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
that international law. You think in the detail of today's court | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
judgment, there is some strengthening of the position of | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
British courts? Absolutely, MPs such as myself and Dominic Raab, we | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
have argued for some time that it is entirely lawful for the | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
Government to proceed to deport Abu Hamza or others, put them on plane, | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
and their lawyers might go to the High Court in a week or two and the | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
decisions are upheld. We have the strongest indication yet, from the | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
UK judiciary, that it is their decision that matters. When it is | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
the Government, when they say that a Rule 39 injunction from | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
Strasbourg, prevents the deportation, we see our judges | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
saying no, it is not an injunction, it is aindcation. It indicates that | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
the Strasbourg rules say it is not desirable. There are other people | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
in British jails who could be swiftly on planes themselves? | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
could be, we have the clearest judicial indication that they could | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
be. As I as others have been arguing for a long time, the | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Government has to test the law, move to put the people on the plane, | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
there may be a quick judicial review in the court. On the basis | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
of what judges in this case judgment have been saying, and | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
other more senior judges, extra judiciary, saying it is UK | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
judgments that matter, and we shouldn't wait for years for | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
Strasbourg to make its own decisions. I agree, it is good | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
British judges are asserting themselves over important | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
international matters. What I would like to hear Mr Reckless discuss is | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
why British judges should not be pronounced upon the merits of the | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
allegations made against people like Abu Hamza, and all the others, | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
whose cases have finished. To in every case the allegation against | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
those people could have been tried in this country, where the judicial | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
qualities that Mr Reckless wants to see brought to bear, could be | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
applied in every one of those cases, which is where the people are found, | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
it is where they were arrested, its where many of them are arrested. It | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
is where their homes or families are, where their defence witnesses | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
R I would like to see a self- assertion, by the UK Criminal | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
Justice Act system, over crimes of an international character, which | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
could be tried in this jurisdiction, and where common sense dictates, | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
and the factors relevant to the case, where the evidence is, | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
demonstrate, should be tried in this jurisdiction. It is the | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
failure to apply any sensible test, any objective assessment, as to | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
where one case should be tried, here or the United States, which | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
has resulted in these delays. me ask in the studio, the European | :13:11. | :13:21. | |
:13:21. | :13:21. | ||
Court itself has been criticised over its own delay ooh and the | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
number of case on -- and on the number of cases on backlog. The | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
British justice system hasn't been perfect here? Abu Hamza was | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
convicted and was serving a sentence, back in 2008 the courts | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
took a year. There is some arguments about changing the | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
statutory appeals and the way they interact with judicial review. It | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
is only over a year of process in our courts, and the last week or so | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
have been the UK courts. Fart bigger delay has been Europe. What | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
we see in this judgment is we shouldn't and don't need to wait | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
for Strasbourg, we should make our own decisions and our Government | :13:55. | :14:02. | |
follow our courts here. Thank you very much. | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
It's not been a brilliant week for the BBC. First, the Jimmy Saville | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
scandal, and now a powerful committee of MPs has accused the | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
corporation of encouraging its star presenters to go on contracts that | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
help them avoid paying tax, and helpfully, avoid the BBC paying tax, | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
as well. Today the focus of the tax | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
crackdown is the BBC. But it was back in February that the story | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
began. A Newsnight investigation revealed | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
Richard Lester, one of the country's top public servants, was | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
being paid through a personal service company, as boss of the | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
Student Loans Company, his salary package was around �200,000, the | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
arrangement meant he could save thoughs of pounds by not paying tax | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
or national insurance through source. Within 24 hours the | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
Government had announced, not just changes to how there are Lester was | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
paid, but a review across -- not just how Mr Lester was paid, but a | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
review across the board. We have to all pay our fair share, I have | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
taken this action to make sure Government departments do not | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
support tax avoidance schemes. review revealed 2,400 public sector | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
workers were being paid using contracts, which meant they weren't | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
paying tax at source. Today, MPs turned the heat on the BBC. | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
A report by the Public Accounts Committee said the public sector | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
should avoid using off-payroll- arrangements, as it creates the | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
suspicion that employees may be avoiding tax. It said it was | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
particularly shocked by the BBC's use of the practice. If you work in | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
the public service, it is beholden on you to lead by example. Hard | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
working families up and down the country are paying lots of money in | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
tax, it is wrong for individuals, working in the public service, | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
whose money comes from the tax those families pay, aren't paying | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
their due share. The BBC said it would carry out a detailed review | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
of these contracts. Earlier I spoke to the BBC's head | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
of human resources, Lucy Adams. Let's get one thing clear, how many | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
people, that we see on our television screens, are being paid | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
through these private companies, that help them pay less tax? There | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
are 1500 people who are, what are known as on-air presenters. There | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
are 467 presenters that you would see on a very regular basis. | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
have asked a tax lawyer to do some calculation about those 467. | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
Suppose one of them is earning �150,000 a year, some of our | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
viewers, they will take a deep breath when they hear that figure. | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
We know some of them are. We have worked out that it saves you | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
�20,000 per employee, or per non- employee here, by doing that | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
alaiingment. You, of course, don't -- arrangement. You, of course, | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
don't have to pay national insurance. The individual is | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
responsible for paying national insurance for both the employer and | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
employee, so HMRC is getting the same amount of money. You don't | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
have to pay it? Because we are not paying that and wouldn't pay them | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
holiday, et cetera, we would be paying them more. So it balances | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
out. You are happy with that. The House | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
of Commons isn't, the Government isn't, they have asked you to take | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
a relook. You have basically decided there is nothing wrong with | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
the arrangement? We are aware of public concern about potential tax | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
avoidance, that is why we have been doing a very view of the situation, | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
which we will be working with the PACR. What is the review, there is | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
worry about that arrangement, not all the people who work for the BBC | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
have that arrangement. Many of the people who appeared on screen pay | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
their tax through their wage bill, like everyone else. Why do you need | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
to many of your employees to be paid like this? We want to do a | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
review because we want to be sure it is working in the way it should. | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
It clearly isn't, there is concern at the level of the PAC and the | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
Government. It isn't working in the way it should. Otherwise the Chief | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
Secretary of the Treasury wouldn't be standing up and saying, hey guys, | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
review it? We are very clear we comply with HMRC guidelines, rules | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
and regulation, waent to make sure everyone we are contracting with in | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
that mechanism is working and effectively to the terms. I will | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
read you what Margaret Hodge says, chair of the committee, it sounds | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
suspiciously like complicity with tax avoidance, what do you say? | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
deny that categorically, nothing we do is to enable individuals or the | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
BBC to avoid paying tax. Is it moral, is it right to have somebody | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
in a foodbank in Coventry, getting turned down an emergency loan | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
claiming benefit, while you quibble about �20,000 in tax, from someone | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
working in this build. What is the moral justification for that? | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
are keen to ensure the right amount of tax is paid to HMRC, that is why | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
we provide all the information to them about everything the | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
individuals have earned. HMRC are able to police they have paid the | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
right amount of tax. Why do so many of your top employees seem to be | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
able to demand a beneficial arrangement, that ordinary Joes | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
cleaning the floor in Television Centre don't have, why? The vast | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
majority of people who are contracted in this way, work for a | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
number of others countries. Actor, musicians, singers, make-up artists, | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
hairdressers. What about the people who are the faces of the BBC, they | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
are not encouraged to work for other companies? Many of them do. | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
One of the things we are doing with our review is to make sure it is | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
working. If it needs changing we will change it. | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
You will change it. They were treated with appalling | :20:00. | :20:08. | |
brutality, raped, beaten, in one case, castrated, tortured. The | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
victims were Kenyan, the perpetrators, British policemen and | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
soldiers, fighting the Mau Mau in the 1950s. Today three survivors of | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
the mistreatment won the right to sue the British Government now, for | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
damage. In a moment I will speak to two historians about the rights and | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
wrongs of historical justice cases like this. First we report from | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
Nairobi. For many here, this has been a very | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
long time coming. For nearly half a century, the UK has sought to avoid | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
being held to account for horrific abuses carried out by its forces | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
during the Mau Mau rebellion, that foreshadowed Kenyan independence. | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
The British Government admits that the people who brought the case | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
were tortured. But, it says, the events took place too long ago, | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
that the key decision makers were all dead, and making a fair trial | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
impossible. Today the High Court disagreed. For these people, | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
today's judgment was a significant victory. When the news filtered | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
through from London, on a mobile phone many of these elderly people | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
got together, linked armed, they were cheering and chanting and | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
dancing. This has been a long time coming for many of them. It feels | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
like a big win for them. The reality is some what different. | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
This may be just another phase in a long, drawn-out, legal procedure. | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
Many of these people are veterans of a 06-year-old conflict. For many | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
of them -- of a 60-year-old conflict. For many of them, time is | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
not on their side? These people are mainly old, if people die of age, | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
these people are near the grave. Why do you want them to go to the | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
grave without the conclusion of their case. Today, though, that | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
didn't really dampen people's spirits. Here there were a couple | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
of hundred veterans of the Mau Mau rising, and were very happy with | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
what they heard. In Kenya, interestingly, there is little | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
coverage of this case. That is because the Mau Mau itself is a | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
some what controversial, and not all together simple part of Kenya's | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
history. The thing is, the people who took over Kenya, and started | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
running it after independence in 1963, many of them had been | :22:25. | :22:32. | |
associated with the Home Guard, those who fought on behalf of the | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
British Colinisers. For many decades the Mau Mau weren't | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
recognised as a legal organisation, they were only unbanned in 1993. | :22:42. | :22:50. | |
There was a sense of a new era here. Even today, not everyone a I grease | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
that the Mau Mau is an I will Luis -- not everyone agrees that the Mau | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
Mau is an illustrious part of history, or has a case for | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
independence. The legal wrangling could drag on for months, some of | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
the claimants may not live to see the conclusion of their case. | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
Today's judgment could have consequences that reach out beyond | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
the Mau Mau rebellion, beyond Kenya. The Government has said it won't | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
comment on this case, as it is appealing the decision. With me now | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
are the historian Lawrence James, and the university of Cambridge | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
academic pre-ia Golpal. The British Government is appealing, these | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
people are elderly. The Government strategy might to be wait until | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
they are no longer around. Isn't it time to pay up, make an apology, | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
and move on? I don't think so. I mean you are asking Mr Cameron's | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
Government to pay compensation, for alleged misdeeds, by the servants | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
of Winston Churchill's Government. If this is so, is David Cameron | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
going to face cases of the misdeeds of say the officials of Lord | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
Palmerstown. Will this become universal. These people are still | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
alive, aren't they, there is not many people still alive from those | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
days. But we have real human decision here who have suffered and | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
want redress? They claif tomorrow suffered, and their claims are -- | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
they claim to have suffered and their claims are going through the | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
civil court and we will find out if they are valid. The British | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
Government accepts that violence was done to them? It does, the | :24:31. | :24:38. | |
extent of the violence, by whom and what circumstances? They are still | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
in the middle of civil, leading proceed decommission. What do you | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
think -- Proceedings. What do you think? It is too late to talk about | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
whether the people were tortured or had things done to them. It is | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
widely accepted, two distinguished British historians have written | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
books, using archives and evidence, that establish there was widespread | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
violence, killing and torture. I don't think it does us much good to | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
ask whether or not violence indeed happened. It certainly did. What | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
should happen in this case? I think one thing we have to establish, is | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
this isn't about particular Governments, Cameron's versus | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
Churchill or Palmerston, it is about the British state, as one | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
continuous entity, bears responsibility for what was | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
undertaken in its name, whether it happened in 1960, or 1977. Many | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
people will be saying Mau Mau, Kenya, who are they, do we know | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
enough about you are this period, are our students talked about it | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
enough. What happened in the fall of the British Empire? They are, | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
the fast galy misbehaviour of the Queen and forces have been shown | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
about for over 30 years. It wa brutality. But the currency of | :25:52. | :26:01. | |
violence was partly introduced by the Mau Mau. What we have is an | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
incertificate rexry organisation, a peasant -- insurrectionry | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
organisation, a peasant uprising them. Did grotesque cruelties on | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
their adversaries. A sovereign state did grotesque cruelties back? | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
The British authorities panicked, and there was a lot of bad eggs in | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
that administration, without. Some were court marshalled, not enough. | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
The man who was castrated, it says in my notes, was castrated with | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
pliers, by a white, British civil servant, a servant of the British | :26:38. | :26:45. | |
state. Do you think we need to do more to try to educate people what | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
actually happened. What do we think about it? My students come in at | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
their third year in Cambridge and know very little about the empire. | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
They know next to nothing about Kenya or south Asia. I think the | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
teaching of imperial history in this country is extremely poor, and | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
quite cartoonish. We don't do ourselves a service by not | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
understanding what has happened. There is a huge debate in the | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
United States about reparations about the torture inflicted by | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
slavery. Do you think we are about to enter a debate like that in the | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
UK. Where it is placed on the agenda that we actually pay, | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
individual people, for what happened under colonialism? I think | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
there are two different things we are talking about, one is reckoning | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
with the history of empire as a society. Have we? No we haven't, | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
absolutely. Does paying help? think it brings the debate into | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
focus. There is a very limited number of individuals who are still | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
alive, who can claim payment. That is only the tip of the iceberg. | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
is not really history this, is it, they are real people. We ought to, | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
there is a moral case for Britain to stop dragging its heels, isn't | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
there? We are not dragging our heels, we are allowing this case to | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
proceed. Will you fight tooth and nail if that happens? That is the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
Government's right. We haven't yet heard their side of the case. I | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
would add one thing, I quite agree we don't know enough about our | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
empire. And in discovering about it, we will remember there is a balance. | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
You have, perhaps, a handful of brutal and callous officials in | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
Kenya. At the same time, you have British authorities establishing | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
veterinary clinics and giving training to Kenyans to look after | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
their flocks. We are aware of the argument there. This was a | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
generation that was addicted to silence. There was no transparency, | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
they didn't talk about it when they came back. We have to talk about it | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
now. It was us discussed in parliament on a few occasions. | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
about the families that did this? hope many were bitterly ashamed. | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
is not helpful to talk about abhor racial, the rotten eggs thing | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
people are talking about. We are talking about a system that was | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
brutal and violent. This sort of denial and silencing doesn't help | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
us as a society. Thank you very much. Kirsty is | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
standing by in Glasgow with the return of the review show. | :29:22. | :29:32. | |
:29:32. | :29:33. | ||
We are back, and full autumn colour, tonight the Beat Generation finally | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
hits the road. JK Rowling's new book is shrouded | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
in history, I will ask my guest about it. They watch the return of | :29:44. | :29:49. |