05/10/2012 Newsnight


05/10/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 05/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

He's gone, nearly, Abu Hamza is tonight being deported to America,

:00:13.:00:17.

to face terrorism charges. This is the scene now at an airbase

:00:17.:00:21.

in Suffolk, where two American planes are set to take off with

:00:21.:00:25.

Hamza and four other accused. But Hamza avoided extradition for eight

:00:25.:00:30.

years. How did that happen? We will discuss that with the Conservative

:00:30.:00:33.

MP and, in his first interview, Hamza's barrister.

:00:33.:00:38.

The BBC is in the firing line, again, this time for helping its

:00:38.:00:42.

presenters avoid tax. I will be asking a senior BBC

:00:42.:00:45.

executive, why it is allowed to happen. Nothing we do is designed

:00:45.:00:51.

to enable either individuals or the BBC to avoid paying tax. And they

:00:51.:00:55.

were beaten, raped, castrated, by the British authorities in Kenya.

:00:55.:00:59.

Now they have they have won the right to sue the British Government.

:00:59.:01:09.
:01:09.:01:11.

What other chances have the -- have the victims of Cologne yum rule of

:01:11.:01:15.

-- colonial rule have of achieving justice.

:01:15.:01:19.

Justice delayed is justice denied, goes the legal saying. By that

:01:19.:01:21.

definition, the European Court of Human Rights and British courts

:01:21.:01:26.

have manifestly denied justice. It has taken eight years to extradite

:01:26.:01:29.

the radical Muslim cleric, Abu Hamza, to the United States.

:01:29.:01:33.

Tonight, police removed Hamza and four other defendants from Long

:01:33.:01:38.

Lartin Prison, and put them on to two planes set for America. But the

:01:38.:01:41.

case has raised serious questions about the extradition process, and

:01:41.:01:46.

severely test Britain's relationship to the European Court.

:01:46.:01:51.

This report contains flash photography.

:01:51.:01:57.

Just hours after his appeal failed, Abu Hamza was on his way from Long

:01:57.:02:00.

Lartin, maximum security prison, in the West Midlands, to an airfield

:02:00.:02:09.

and a US pen tensionry. Penetenary. One of the most

:02:09.:02:14.

notorious figures in Britain, described by his own lawyers as a

:02:14.:02:17.

pantomime villain, was finally leaving the country. Soon, Abu

:02:18.:02:24.

Hamza and the other four account ofs will be on their way, flying

:02:24.:02:30.

Con Air to the United States. In a US Department of justice plane with

:02:30.:02:35.

US federal marshalls on board. It is many years since the extradition

:02:35.:02:39.

period, why has it taken so long. From the 1990s, among his own

:02:40.:02:44.

followers, he called for violence. Just do it, anything will help the

:02:44.:02:53.

infad da do it, if it is pain do it, if it is ambush, if it is anything

:02:53.:02:57.

poisonous, poison them. television interviews, he refused

:02:57.:03:02.

to condemn Al-Qaeda's bombings of US embassies in Africa.

:03:02.:03:06.

REPORTER: You support the message of killing 200 people in order to

:03:06.:03:14.

send a message? They were not meant to be murdered. You repudiate the

:03:14.:03:19.

attack, you say it was wrong? No I don't say it was wrong. In 200,

:03:19.:03:24.

there was seven arrests at Finsbury Park Mosque, where he preached,

:03:24.:03:29.

police found a stun gun, replica firearms, and CS gas cannister.

:03:29.:03:34.

Just over a year later, in 2004, Abu Hamza was arrested on a US

:03:34.:03:40.

extradition warrant, charges included setting up a training camp

:03:40.:03:44.

in Oregon, and a kidnapping in Yemen. In October 2004 he was

:03:44.:03:49.

charged in the UK with 15 offences under the Terrorism Act, that

:03:49.:03:55.

halted the process. Found guilty, he was imprisoned in 2006. It is

:03:55.:03:58.

largely waste of time, though it was very good lawyers' fees, of

:03:58.:04:04.

course. He should have been sent to the United States. There, perhaps,

:04:04.:04:08.

his defence lawyers would have got him off, so be it. What is it with

:04:08.:04:12.

British lawyers, British judges, British prosecutors, I don't know,

:04:12.:04:16.

nobody knows, that they think justice delayed is something that

:04:16.:04:21.

they can accept. In May 2007, the extradition began again, with a

:04:21.:04:25.

preliminary hearing in London. His lawyers went to the European Court

:04:25.:04:30.

of Human Rights, that halted the process, it took until 2010 for the

:04:30.:04:34.

first hearing. Many thousands of cases have flooded in, in

:04:35.:04:39.

particular from Eastern Europe, in countries such as Russia, Turkey,

:04:39.:04:43.

Romania and Poland. The court is struggling with a very large

:04:43.:04:47.

backlog of cases, something like 80,000, depending on which figures

:04:47.:04:52.

you look at. The court is aunch struggling t has limited resource -

:04:52.:04:56.

- often struggling, it has limited resources, some of the cases have

:04:56.:05:01.

very complex. That tends to slow up proceedings, to some extent. They

:05:01.:05:08.

delivered their ver vibgt in April 20 -- verdict in April 2012 and

:05:08.:05:14.

turned down the appeal against it. They said the conditions would not

:05:14.:05:17.

be degrading. Yet lawyers for Abu Hamza and the other defendant went

:05:17.:05:21.

back to the British High Court. That it has taken so long, has

:05:21.:05:24.

angered the head of the justice system itself. As he made clear

:05:24.:05:27.

last week. I'm not going to comment about an

:05:27.:05:32.

individual case, but any case that takes eight years, through a whole

:05:32.:05:35.

series of judicial processs to come to a conclusion, and you have made

:05:35.:05:43.

the point, that it hasn't yet come to a conclusion, is a source of

:05:43.:05:51.

real fury to me. One veteran MP says it's time for parliament to

:05:51.:05:55.

get involved. I think the Justice Select Committee should be looking

:05:55.:06:01.

at why it is that these incredible delays are there. What is the extra

:06:01.:06:05.

protection that alleged terrorists, terrorists, and convicted

:06:05.:06:09.

terrorists have, why is it that QCs and judges bend over backwards. It

:06:09.:06:14.

is time for a proper explanation. Most MPs are terrified to mention

:06:14.:06:18.

or criticise judges n this case it is overdue that we have a proper

:06:18.:06:22.

parliamentary examination of why justice is so delayed in this area

:06:22.:06:27.

of law and courts. Abu Hamza himself, will soon have left the

:06:27.:06:32.

country. But the questions raised by his extradition remain.

:06:32.:06:39.

Joining me in the studio is Conservative MP Mark Reckless, who

:06:39.:06:44.

sits on the Home Affairs Select Committee, and in his first

:06:44.:06:49.

interview, Abu Hamza's lawyer, Alan Jones QC. You are the man who

:06:49.:06:52.

represents Abu Hamza what has been his reaction tonight to this

:06:52.:06:56.

verdict? I haven't spoken to him today at all. I think he was

:06:56.:07:00.

expecting this. In fact, we were all expecting it. I think it has

:07:00.:07:04.

been clear since the European Court of Human Rights made its decision

:07:04.:07:09.

in April, that it was final. And nobody expected the Home Office to

:07:09.:07:13.

conduct, what we thought were the necessary medical tests, to

:07:13.:07:16.

determine whether he was fit to be extradite. You can't seriously have

:07:16.:07:19.

thought you were going to succeed with today's appeal, it was, in

:07:19.:07:26.

effect, a delaying tactic? No, we had a consultant psychiatrist, who

:07:26.:07:30.

gave his opinion to the Home Office, on the 10th of August this year,

:07:30.:07:36.

that there had been a deterioration in Abu Hamza's mental condition.

:07:36.:07:40.

Attributable to sleep deprivation for eight years. He has been kept

:07:40.:07:46.

in conditions of utmost severity in Belmarsh Prison, with very severe

:07:46.:07:50.

disability. His recommendation was there was an MRI scan, which the

:07:50.:07:53.

Home Office ignored. I don't think those are the main points. I would

:07:53.:07:56.

like to deal with the question of delay, which you have been

:07:56.:08:00.

discussing. Of course, there has been formidable delay. The point

:08:00.:08:04.

which has not been made, and ought to be made loudly and clearly, that

:08:04.:08:07.

Abu Hamza ought to have been tried in this jurisdiction for the crimes

:08:07.:08:12.

alleged against him. We will come to that. But we have the Lord Chief

:08:12.:08:16.

Justice saying now that your achievement here, the eight years

:08:16.:08:21.

of delay, are a source of real fury to him. Surely now, we all have to

:08:21.:08:26.

accept the law here has been made to look like an ass? There are very

:08:26.:08:29.

serious faults in the way extradition proceedings are handled.

:08:29.:08:32.

Don't call it an achievement to delay for eight years. The delay

:08:33.:08:37.

has been built in by Abu Hamza serving a sentence of imprisonment,

:08:37.:08:42.

and criminal proceedings brought in this country in 2004. That caused

:08:42.:08:46.

the extradition proceedings to be interrupted until 2007. The

:08:46.:08:50.

proceedings themselves took place between 2007 and June of 2008, and

:08:50.:08:55.

since then, the delays have been cued in the European Court of Human

:08:55.:08:58.

Rights -- caused in the European Court of Human Rights, where Abu

:08:58.:09:00.

Hamza's complaint of held admissible in part, as were those

:09:00.:09:03.

of the other defendants. It was treated with enormous significance

:09:03.:09:06.

and importance by the European Court of Human Rights, until the

:09:06.:09:11.

appeal was dismissed in this year. Det lays are endemic of the

:09:11.:09:16.

extradition -- delays are endemic of the extradition process. How we

:09:16.:09:21.

sought it out in Europe, I don't know, that court is overburdened

:09:21.:09:25.

with work. This is a consequence of using extradition matters instead

:09:25.:09:28.

of trying the matters as they should have been tried in this

:09:28.:09:34.

jurisdiction. We will come back to that. Stay with us, please. You sit

:09:34.:09:37.

on the Home Affairs Select Committee, you too have met the man,

:09:37.:09:41.

Abu Hamza, you met him in prison, what is your reaction to seeing him

:09:41.:09:44.

arrive just now to get on a plane to the United States? I think most

:09:44.:09:50.

people in the country, at last, it has taken such a long time. It has

:09:50.:09:55.

been a lot of money, including tax- payers' money spent, and finally

:09:55.:10:01.

this extradition is now going ahead. The delays inherent in this process

:10:01.:10:06.

are because we have the European Convention of Human Rights,

:10:06.:10:09.

incorporated, for a decade, into our domestic law. Our own courts,

:10:09.:10:14.

to the highest level, rule on that, and say whether it is Abu Hamza, or

:10:14.:10:19.

anyone else, that they can be deported. We then wait for this

:10:19.:10:21.

separate process, for the Strasbourg court to rule on

:10:21.:10:24.

something our own courts have already determined on the basis of

:10:24.:10:28.

that international law. You think in the detail of today's court

:10:28.:10:31.

judgment, there is some strengthening of the position of

:10:31.:10:36.

British courts? Absolutely, MPs such as myself and Dominic Raab, we

:10:36.:10:40.

have argued for some time that it is entirely lawful for the

:10:40.:10:46.

Government to proceed to deport Abu Hamza or others, put them on plane,

:10:46.:10:51.

and their lawyers might go to the High Court in a week or two and the

:10:51.:10:55.

decisions are upheld. We have the strongest indication yet, from the

:10:55.:10:59.

UK judiciary, that it is their decision that matters. When it is

:10:59.:11:04.

the Government, when they say that a Rule 39 injunction from

:11:05.:11:08.

Strasbourg, prevents the deportation, we see our judges

:11:08.:11:15.

saying no, it is not an injunction, it is aindcation. It indicates that

:11:15.:11:19.

the Strasbourg rules say it is not desirable. There are other people

:11:19.:11:23.

in British jails who could be swiftly on planes themselves?

:11:23.:11:28.

could be, we have the clearest judicial indication that they could

:11:28.:11:31.

be. As I as others have been arguing for a long time, the

:11:31.:11:35.

Government has to test the law, move to put the people on the plane,

:11:35.:11:38.

there may be a quick judicial review in the court. On the basis

:11:38.:11:41.

of what judges in this case judgment have been saying, and

:11:41.:11:46.

other more senior judges, extra judiciary, saying it is UK

:11:46.:11:51.

judgments that matter, and we shouldn't wait for years for

:11:51.:11:55.

Strasbourg to make its own decisions. I agree, it is good

:11:55.:11:57.

British judges are asserting themselves over important

:11:57.:12:02.

international matters. What I would like to hear Mr Reckless discuss is

:12:02.:12:07.

why British judges should not be pronounced upon the merits of the

:12:07.:12:11.

allegations made against people like Abu Hamza, and all the others,

:12:11.:12:16.

whose cases have finished. To in every case the allegation against

:12:16.:12:19.

those people could have been tried in this country, where the judicial

:12:19.:12:22.

qualities that Mr Reckless wants to see brought to bear, could be

:12:22.:12:26.

applied in every one of those cases, which is where the people are found,

:12:26.:12:30.

it is where they were arrested, its where many of them are arrested. It

:12:30.:12:33.

is where their homes or families are, where their defence witnesses

:12:33.:12:39.

R I would like to see a self- assertion, by the UK Criminal

:12:39.:12:43.

Justice Act system, over crimes of an international character, which

:12:43.:12:48.

could be tried in this jurisdiction, and where common sense dictates,

:12:48.:12:51.

and the factors relevant to the case, where the evidence is,

:12:51.:12:56.

demonstrate, should be tried in this jurisdiction. It is the

:12:56.:13:00.

failure to apply any sensible test, any objective assessment, as to

:13:00.:13:05.

where one case should be tried, here or the United States, which

:13:05.:13:11.

has resulted in these delays. me ask in the studio, the European

:13:11.:13:21.
:13:21.:13:21.

Court itself has been criticised over its own delay ooh and the

:13:21.:13:26.

number of case on -- and on the number of cases on backlog. The

:13:26.:13:31.

British justice system hasn't been perfect here? Abu Hamza was

:13:31.:13:35.

convicted and was serving a sentence, back in 2008 the courts

:13:35.:13:37.

took a year. There is some arguments about changing the

:13:37.:13:41.

statutory appeals and the way they interact with judicial review. It

:13:41.:13:45.

is only over a year of process in our courts, and the last week or so

:13:45.:13:49.

have been the UK courts. Fart bigger delay has been Europe. What

:13:49.:13:52.

we see in this judgment is we shouldn't and don't need to wait

:13:52.:13:55.

for Strasbourg, we should make our own decisions and our Government

:13:55.:14:02.

follow our courts here. Thank you very much.

:14:02.:14:07.

It's not been a brilliant week for the BBC. First, the Jimmy Saville

:14:07.:14:12.

scandal, and now a powerful committee of MPs has accused the

:14:12.:14:16.

corporation of encouraging its star presenters to go on contracts that

:14:16.:14:20.

help them avoid paying tax, and helpfully, avoid the BBC paying tax,

:14:20.:14:23.

as well. Today the focus of the tax

:14:23.:14:26.

crackdown is the BBC. But it was back in February that the story

:14:26.:14:31.

began. A Newsnight investigation revealed

:14:31.:14:35.

Richard Lester, one of the country's top public servants, was

:14:35.:14:38.

being paid through a personal service company, as boss of the

:14:38.:14:44.

Student Loans Company, his salary package was around �200,000, the

:14:44.:14:49.

arrangement meant he could save thoughs of pounds by not paying tax

:14:49.:14:51.

or national insurance through source. Within 24 hours the

:14:51.:14:55.

Government had announced, not just changes to how there are Lester was

:14:55.:15:02.

paid, but a review across -- not just how Mr Lester was paid, but a

:15:02.:15:06.

review across the board. We have to all pay our fair share, I have

:15:06.:15:10.

taken this action to make sure Government departments do not

:15:10.:15:15.

support tax avoidance schemes. review revealed 2,400 public sector

:15:15.:15:18.

workers were being paid using contracts, which meant they weren't

:15:18.:15:23.

paying tax at source. Today, MPs turned the heat on the BBC.

:15:23.:15:27.

A report by the Public Accounts Committee said the public sector

:15:27.:15:31.

should avoid using off-payroll- arrangements, as it creates the

:15:31.:15:36.

suspicion that employees may be avoiding tax. It said it was

:15:36.:15:41.

particularly shocked by the BBC's use of the practice. If you work in

:15:41.:15:45.

the public service, it is beholden on you to lead by example. Hard

:15:45.:15:49.

working families up and down the country are paying lots of money in

:15:49.:15:53.

tax, it is wrong for individuals, working in the public service,

:15:53.:15:58.

whose money comes from the tax those families pay, aren't paying

:15:58.:16:02.

their due share. The BBC said it would carry out a detailed review

:16:02.:16:06.

of these contracts. Earlier I spoke to the BBC's head

:16:06.:16:13.

of human resources, Lucy Adams. Let's get one thing clear, how many

:16:13.:16:17.

people, that we see on our television screens, are being paid

:16:17.:16:21.

through these private companies, that help them pay less tax? There

:16:21.:16:27.

are 1500 people who are, what are known as on-air presenters. There

:16:27.:16:31.

are 467 presenters that you would see on a very regular basis.

:16:31.:16:38.

have asked a tax lawyer to do some calculation about those 467.

:16:38.:16:42.

Suppose one of them is earning �150,000 a year, some of our

:16:42.:16:45.

viewers, they will take a deep breath when they hear that figure.

:16:45.:16:50.

We know some of them are. We have worked out that it saves you

:16:50.:16:57.

�20,000 per employee, or per non- employee here, by doing that

:16:57.:17:02.

alaiingment. You, of course, don't -- arrangement. You, of course,

:17:02.:17:06.

don't have to pay national insurance. The individual is

:17:06.:17:09.

responsible for paying national insurance for both the employer and

:17:09.:17:13.

employee, so HMRC is getting the same amount of money. You don't

:17:13.:17:17.

have to pay it? Because we are not paying that and wouldn't pay them

:17:17.:17:20.

holiday, et cetera, we would be paying them more. So it balances

:17:20.:17:23.

out. You are happy with that. The House

:17:23.:17:28.

of Commons isn't, the Government isn't, they have asked you to take

:17:28.:17:32.

a relook. You have basically decided there is nothing wrong with

:17:32.:17:35.

the arrangement? We are aware of public concern about potential tax

:17:35.:17:41.

avoidance, that is why we have been doing a very view of the situation,

:17:41.:17:46.

which we will be working with the PACR. What is the review, there is

:17:46.:17:50.

worry about that arrangement, not all the people who work for the BBC

:17:50.:17:54.

have that arrangement. Many of the people who appeared on screen pay

:17:54.:17:58.

their tax through their wage bill, like everyone else. Why do you need

:17:58.:18:02.

to many of your employees to be paid like this? We want to do a

:18:03.:18:06.

review because we want to be sure it is working in the way it should.

:18:06.:18:09.

It clearly isn't, there is concern at the level of the PAC and the

:18:09.:18:13.

Government. It isn't working in the way it should. Otherwise the Chief

:18:13.:18:17.

Secretary of the Treasury wouldn't be standing up and saying, hey guys,

:18:17.:18:23.

review it? We are very clear we comply with HMRC guidelines, rules

:18:23.:18:27.

and regulation, waent to make sure everyone we are contracting with in

:18:27.:18:30.

that mechanism is working and effectively to the terms. I will

:18:30.:18:35.

read you what Margaret Hodge says, chair of the committee, it sounds

:18:35.:18:40.

suspiciously like complicity with tax avoidance, what do you say?

:18:40.:18:44.

deny that categorically, nothing we do is to enable individuals or the

:18:44.:18:49.

BBC to avoid paying tax. Is it moral, is it right to have somebody

:18:49.:18:55.

in a foodbank in Coventry, getting turned down an emergency loan

:18:55.:19:01.

claiming benefit, while you quibble about �20,000 in tax, from someone

:19:01.:19:05.

working in this build. What is the moral justification for that?

:19:05.:19:10.

are keen to ensure the right amount of tax is paid to HMRC, that is why

:19:10.:19:13.

we provide all the information to them about everything the

:19:13.:19:18.

individuals have earned. HMRC are able to police they have paid the

:19:18.:19:23.

right amount of tax. Why do so many of your top employees seem to be

:19:23.:19:27.

able to demand a beneficial arrangement, that ordinary Joes

:19:27.:19:32.

cleaning the floor in Television Centre don't have, why? The vast

:19:32.:19:35.

majority of people who are contracted in this way, work for a

:19:35.:19:41.

number of others countries. Actor, musicians, singers, make-up artists,

:19:41.:19:45.

hairdressers. What about the people who are the faces of the BBC, they

:19:45.:19:49.

are not encouraged to work for other companies? Many of them do.

:19:49.:19:52.

One of the things we are doing with our review is to make sure it is

:19:52.:19:55.

working. If it needs changing we will change it.

:19:55.:20:00.

You will change it. They were treated with appalling

:20:00.:20:08.

brutality, raped, beaten, in one case, castrated, tortured. The

:20:08.:20:12.

victims were Kenyan, the perpetrators, British policemen and

:20:12.:20:16.

soldiers, fighting the Mau Mau in the 1950s. Today three survivors of

:20:16.:20:19.

the mistreatment won the right to sue the British Government now, for

:20:19.:20:24.

damage. In a moment I will speak to two historians about the rights and

:20:24.:20:29.

wrongs of historical justice cases like this. First we report from

:20:29.:20:33.

Nairobi. For many here, this has been a very

:20:33.:20:38.

long time coming. For nearly half a century, the UK has sought to avoid

:20:38.:20:43.

being held to account for horrific abuses carried out by its forces

:20:43.:20:48.

during the Mau Mau rebellion, that foreshadowed Kenyan independence.

:20:48.:20:50.

The British Government admits that the people who brought the case

:20:50.:20:54.

were tortured. But, it says, the events took place too long ago,

:20:54.:21:00.

that the key decision makers were all dead, and making a fair trial

:21:00.:21:04.

impossible. Today the High Court disagreed. For these people,

:21:04.:21:07.

today's judgment was a significant victory. When the news filtered

:21:07.:21:14.

through from London, on a mobile phone many of these elderly people

:21:14.:21:19.

got together, linked armed, they were cheering and chanting and

:21:19.:21:22.

dancing. This has been a long time coming for many of them. It feels

:21:22.:21:25.

like a big win for them. The reality is some what different.

:21:25.:21:30.

This may be just another phase in a long, drawn-out, legal procedure.

:21:30.:21:35.

Many of these people are veterans of a 06-year-old conflict. For many

:21:35.:21:40.

of them -- of a 60-year-old conflict. For many of them, time is

:21:40.:21:45.

not on their side? These people are mainly old, if people die of age,

:21:45.:21:51.

these people are near the grave. Why do you want them to go to the

:21:51.:21:55.

grave without the conclusion of their case. Today, though, that

:21:55.:21:59.

didn't really dampen people's spirits. Here there were a couple

:21:59.:22:03.

of hundred veterans of the Mau Mau rising, and were very happy with

:22:03.:22:06.

what they heard. In Kenya, interestingly, there is little

:22:06.:22:10.

coverage of this case. That is because the Mau Mau itself is a

:22:10.:22:16.

some what controversial, and not all together simple part of Kenya's

:22:16.:22:22.

history. The thing is, the people who took over Kenya, and started

:22:22.:22:25.

running it after independence in 1963, many of them had been

:22:25.:22:32.

associated with the Home Guard, those who fought on behalf of the

:22:32.:22:36.

British Colinisers. For many decades the Mau Mau weren't

:22:36.:22:42.

recognised as a legal organisation, they were only unbanned in 1993.

:22:42.:22:50.

There was a sense of a new era here. Even today, not everyone a I grease

:22:50.:22:55.

that the Mau Mau is an I will Luis -- not everyone agrees that the Mau

:22:55.:23:00.

Mau is an illustrious part of history, or has a case for

:23:00.:23:02.

independence. The legal wrangling could drag on for months, some of

:23:03.:23:06.

the claimants may not live to see the conclusion of their case.

:23:06.:23:09.

Today's judgment could have consequences that reach out beyond

:23:09.:23:14.

the Mau Mau rebellion, beyond Kenya. The Government has said it won't

:23:14.:23:18.

comment on this case, as it is appealing the decision. With me now

:23:18.:23:24.

are the historian Lawrence James, and the university of Cambridge

:23:24.:23:29.

academic pre-ia Golpal. The British Government is appealing, these

:23:29.:23:36.

people are elderly. The Government strategy might to be wait until

:23:36.:23:40.

they are no longer around. Isn't it time to pay up, make an apology,

:23:40.:23:47.

and move on? I don't think so. I mean you are asking Mr Cameron's

:23:47.:23:53.

Government to pay compensation, for alleged misdeeds, by the servants

:23:53.:23:59.

of Winston Churchill's Government. If this is so, is David Cameron

:23:59.:24:06.

going to face cases of the misdeeds of say the officials of Lord

:24:06.:24:09.

Palmerstown. Will this become universal. These people are still

:24:09.:24:13.

alive, aren't they, there is not many people still alive from those

:24:13.:24:16.

days. But we have real human decision here who have suffered and

:24:16.:24:20.

want redress? They claif tomorrow suffered, and their claims are --

:24:20.:24:24.

they claim to have suffered and their claims are going through the

:24:24.:24:28.

civil court and we will find out if they are valid. The British

:24:28.:24:31.

Government accepts that violence was done to them? It does, the

:24:31.:24:38.

extent of the violence, by whom and what circumstances? They are still

:24:38.:24:42.

in the middle of civil, leading proceed decommission. What do you

:24:43.:24:47.

think -- Proceedings. What do you think? It is too late to talk about

:24:47.:24:51.

whether the people were tortured or had things done to them. It is

:24:51.:24:55.

widely accepted, two distinguished British historians have written

:24:55.:24:59.

books, using archives and evidence, that establish there was widespread

:24:59.:25:03.

violence, killing and torture. I don't think it does us much good to

:25:03.:25:06.

ask whether or not violence indeed happened. It certainly did. What

:25:06.:25:10.

should happen in this case? I think one thing we have to establish, is

:25:10.:25:14.

this isn't about particular Governments, Cameron's versus

:25:14.:25:20.

Churchill or Palmerston, it is about the British state, as one

:25:20.:25:22.

continuous entity, bears responsibility for what was

:25:22.:25:29.

undertaken in its name, whether it happened in 1960, or 1977. Many

:25:29.:25:33.

people will be saying Mau Mau, Kenya, who are they, do we know

:25:33.:25:39.

enough about you are this period, are our students talked about it

:25:39.:25:43.

enough. What happened in the fall of the British Empire? They are,

:25:43.:25:47.

the fast galy misbehaviour of the Queen and forces have been shown

:25:47.:25:52.

about for over 30 years. It wa brutality. But the currency of

:25:52.:26:01.

violence was partly introduced by the Mau Mau. What we have is an

:26:01.:26:06.

incertificate rexry organisation, a peasant -- insurrectionry

:26:06.:26:12.

organisation, a peasant uprising them. Did grotesque cruelties on

:26:12.:26:17.

their adversaries. A sovereign state did grotesque cruelties back?

:26:17.:26:22.

The British authorities panicked, and there was a lot of bad eggs in

:26:22.:26:26.

that administration, without. Some were court marshalled, not enough.

:26:26.:26:32.

The man who was castrated, it says in my notes, was castrated with

:26:32.:26:38.

pliers, by a white, British civil servant, a servant of the British

:26:38.:26:45.

state. Do you think we need to do more to try to educate people what

:26:45.:26:50.

actually happened. What do we think about it? My students come in at

:26:50.:26:54.

their third year in Cambridge and know very little about the empire.

:26:54.:26:58.

They know next to nothing about Kenya or south Asia. I think the

:26:58.:27:03.

teaching of imperial history in this country is extremely poor, and

:27:03.:27:05.

quite cartoonish. We don't do ourselves a service by not

:27:05.:27:10.

understanding what has happened. There is a huge debate in the

:27:10.:27:14.

United States about reparations about the torture inflicted by

:27:15.:27:19.

slavery. Do you think we are about to enter a debate like that in the

:27:19.:27:23.

UK. Where it is placed on the agenda that we actually pay,

:27:23.:27:26.

individual people, for what happened under colonialism? I think

:27:27.:27:30.

there are two different things we are talking about, one is reckoning

:27:30.:27:35.

with the history of empire as a society. Have we? No we haven't,

:27:35.:27:39.

absolutely. Does paying help? think it brings the debate into

:27:39.:27:43.

focus. There is a very limited number of individuals who are still

:27:43.:27:47.

alive, who can claim payment. That is only the tip of the iceberg.

:27:47.:27:50.

is not really history this, is it, they are real people. We ought to,

:27:50.:27:56.

there is a moral case for Britain to stop dragging its heels, isn't

:27:56.:28:00.

there? We are not dragging our heels, we are allowing this case to

:28:00.:28:07.

proceed. Will you fight tooth and nail if that happens? That is the

:28:07.:28:10.

Government's right. We haven't yet heard their side of the case. I

:28:10.:28:14.

would add one thing, I quite agree we don't know enough about our

:28:14.:28:18.

empire. And in discovering about it, we will remember there is a balance.

:28:18.:28:25.

You have, perhaps, a handful of brutal and callous officials in

:28:25.:28:31.

Kenya. At the same time, you have British authorities establishing

:28:31.:28:35.

veterinary clinics and giving training to Kenyans to look after

:28:35.:28:39.

their flocks. We are aware of the argument there. This was a

:28:39.:28:43.

generation that was addicted to silence. There was no transparency,

:28:43.:28:49.

they didn't talk about it when they came back. We have to talk about it

:28:49.:28:54.

now. It was us discussed in parliament on a few occasions.

:28:54.:29:00.

about the families that did this? hope many were bitterly ashamed.

:29:00.:29:05.

is not helpful to talk about abhor racial, the rotten eggs thing

:29:05.:29:09.

people are talking about. We are talking about a system that was

:29:09.:29:13.

brutal and violent. This sort of denial and silencing doesn't help

:29:13.:29:19.

us as a society. Thank you very much. Kirsty is

:29:19.:29:22.

standing by in Glasgow with the return of the review show.

:29:22.:29:32.
:29:32.:29:33.

We are back, and full autumn colour, tonight the Beat Generation finally

:29:33.:29:38.

hits the road. JK Rowling's new book is shrouded

:29:38.:29:44.

in history, I will ask my guest about it. They watch the return of

:29:44.:29:49.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS