15/11/2012 Newsnight


15/11/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Kirsty Wark.


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The Congress is over, the new man's in place, now the world's watching

:00:13.:00:18.

for China's next move. But do the Chinese themselves have any great

:00:18.:00:23.

expectations of their new President. On the streets we found

:00:23.:00:27.

indifference to the new leader, and the party knows it faces dangerous

:00:27.:00:32.

levels of mistrust. Each of our guests knows China

:00:32.:00:35.

intimately, is there any certainty about what happens now?

:00:35.:00:39.

Tilting at windmill, is the great drive for on shore energy about to

:00:39.:00:43.

hit the doldrums. A Conservative MP take on his Lib Dem colleague and

:00:44.:00:48.

rival over the need to recommit to renewables.

:00:48.:00:52.

Also tonight, doesn't this drive you crazy, it is a menace, it is

:00:52.:00:55.

harassment, and it is everywhere. We will tell you why the PPI claims

:00:55.:01:05.
:01:05.:01:10.

business is growing, and why Good evening. The man who will lead

:01:10.:01:17.

the most populist country in the world was confirmed in post today.

:01:17.:01:20.

Xi Jinping, and his committee of six, will be in charge of one

:01:20.:01:25.

billion souls for the next decade, all of whom have big economic

:01:25.:01:28.

expectation. Whether bigger wealth, healthcare or pensions, many also

:01:28.:01:32.

desire more personal and political freedom. What will his rule look

:01:32.:01:37.

like? Less corrupt? Expansionist? Will growth stutter? Will social

:01:37.:01:42.

media become an unstoppable engine of change? We will discuss all this

:01:42.:01:48.

and more in a moment. First, Paul Mason witnessed the Changing of the

:01:48.:01:53.

Guard. Kirsty, hello from the first

:01:53.:01:56.

freezing cold and foggy dawn of the Xi Jinping era.

:01:56.:02:00.

What do we know about him? He's the son of a revolutionary leader, he

:02:00.:02:06.

has strong links with the military. He has run three provinces in China

:02:06.:02:08.

the size of small European countries, and run them well. And

:02:09.:02:14.

he does not speak like a "speak your weight" machine. What else do

:02:14.:02:20.

we know? The obvious signals are that the party has been given. He

:02:20.:02:23.

has been given simultaneous control both of the party and mill

:02:23.:02:26.

treatment we will not get one of those torturous handovers from one

:02:27.:02:29.

generation to the next that we had ten years ago. The small

:02:29.:02:33.

commitmenty that runs the party has been cut -- committee that runs the

:02:33.:02:38.

party has been cut from nine to seven. From that party there is a

:02:38.:02:42.

near majority of conservatives, so, there is clearly a change. There is

:02:42.:02:48.

a change of guard. We also saw him become slightly emotional in his

:02:48.:02:52.

speech. He really gave a speech, rather than a report.

:02:52.:02:58.

In terms of setting the tone, even as he was speaking, live to the

:02:58.:03:04.

Chinese people, the strapline underneath him on state TV was

:03:04.:03:08.

saying, the country faces serious challenges. If we have been focused

:03:08.:03:12.

on this leadership handover, what we may have underplayed, and what

:03:12.:03:15.

is most significant, is the outgoing leaders, and the in coming

:03:15.:03:20.

leaders, are now talking openly about the party's crisis of

:03:20.:03:30.
:03:30.:03:31.

legitimacy. The international unites the human

:03:31.:03:36.

race, goes the anthem. One sixth of the human race is governed from

:03:36.:03:41.

this hall, by a party determined to cling to power, and to go on

:03:41.:03:50.

playing the old tunes. Hi, thank you.

:03:50.:03:54.

Resolution of the 18th Congress of the Communist Party. On the report

:03:54.:04:02.

of the central committee. Thanks. At this session, they are amending

:04:02.:04:07.

the party constitution, the man on the left, Hu Jintao, is having his

:04:07.:04:14.

own personal theory added to the theory of his predecessor, Jiang

:04:14.:04:19.

Zemin, on the right. I have tagged along with party member, Mr Woo, a

:04:19.:04:23.

press reporter, to find out what it means. What is important to your

:04:23.:04:33.

readers about all of this? We are very concerned about the transition

:04:33.:04:37.

of power, who is going to be in the leadership. Not really too much

:04:37.:04:42.

about what's in the constitution. It is theory, these are too

:04:42.:04:46.

abstract. But the readers want to know who is who? Who the next

:04:46.:04:53.

person? Definitely. The man in the middle Xi Jinping,

:04:53.:04:56.

is the in coming leader, he will have to represent between business

:04:56.:05:01.

and the new elite, and the needs of workers, and peasants and the

:05:01.:05:06.

middle-class. The real mystery in this Congress is still, why is the

:05:06.:05:11.

old guard leader, Zemin right, front and centre for the party. Is

:05:11.:05:16.

he there to symbolise stability, while the new leadership pursues

:05:16.:05:20.

rapid change. Or is he there, on the contrary, to signal that there

:05:20.:05:23.

won't be any rapid change. You would like to think that 25 people

:05:23.:05:28.

in the leadership of this party of 60 million know the answer, but

:05:28.:05:35.

maybe, nobody knows. With the conference over, the real

:05:35.:05:39.

decision making is about to begin. The party carefully recruits from

:05:39.:05:45.

all over China, workers, the middle-class, the ethnic minorities.

:05:45.:05:50.

As the delegates disperse, behind the scenes they are picking the

:05:50.:05:54.

seven-man team that will lead China, that is where the struggle is going

:05:54.:06:01.

Meanwhile, all over Beijing, the old guard is out. Volunteer

:06:01.:06:07.

security people, many of them elderly. Tran If we find any kind

:06:07.:06:10.

of -- TRANSLATION: If we find any kind of situation, any special

:06:10.:06:14.

situation, we can give the local leaders a call straight away, and

:06:14.:06:18.

the police or someone will come. Even here, they are aware the party

:06:18.:06:21.

has to deliver more than it has done.

:06:21.:06:29.

TRANSLATION: I'm concerned about housing, ordinary people's

:06:29.:06:31.

livelihoods, our salaries, pensions and social order, these are the

:06:31.:06:36.

things that I pay attention to. Here, this street is peaceful, in

:06:36.:06:41.

fact, this street is called "peace and quiet avenue". What I'm really

:06:41.:06:48.

worried about is rent. It is very difficult for us to rent a home.

:06:48.:06:54.

What matters now is the make up of the standing committee that runs

:06:54.:06:58.

the party. On a street corner, under a big screen, it is not

:06:58.:07:03.

exactly masses of people who have come out to see who has been chosen.

:07:03.:07:09.

Eventually, to a hall full of international journalists, the new

:07:09.:07:13.

seven-man committee emerges. Xi Jinping will become President, the

:07:13.:07:23.
:07:23.:07:24.

next man, Peng Liyuan, will be the PM. There is only one from the old

:07:24.:07:27.

regime, and three are hardliners. This is the equivalent of a

:07:27.:07:32.

presidential election in a country- times bigger than the United States.

:07:32.:07:36.

It has only -- five-times bigger than the United States. It has only

:07:36.:07:38.

happened twice in the modern history of this country. The

:07:38.:07:43.

reaction on the streets is...You could say, not ecstatic. Eventually

:07:43.:07:49.

we found some people who were interested. What do you think of

:07:49.:07:55.

the election of Xi Jinping to be leader of China? I think he will do

:07:55.:08:02.

his good job too. For economic or something like that. To help China

:08:03.:08:12.
:08:13.:08:15.

get stronger. What is the number one thing you want him to do?

:08:15.:08:20.

think maybe increase our salaries! What's the number one problem you

:08:20.:08:28.

want them to address? TRANSLATION: I feel the main problem is the

:08:28.:08:34.

civil administration. Another think Qishan, what's his name, needs to

:08:34.:08:38.

solve is the problem of Taiwan and the problems of the disputed

:08:38.:08:43.

islands. TRANSLATION: I like him, he's good

:08:43.:08:52.

for the country, life goes on. is the short translation.

:08:52.:09:00.

To them, and 1.4 billion like them, the new leader had this message.

:09:00.:09:04.

TRANSLATION: Under the new conditions, our party face many

:09:04.:09:07.

severe challenges. There are also many proseing problems within the

:09:07.:09:10.

party that need to be he -- pressing problems within the party

:09:10.:09:13.

that need to be resolved. Corruption, being divorced from the

:09:13.:09:20.

people, going through formalities and butter oxism. The party knows

:09:20.:09:26.

bureaucracyism. The party knows it could harm economic growth and

:09:27.:09:29.

strangle innovation. It knows growth will have to come from more

:09:29.:09:33.

consumption and a richer middle- class. It knows behind the apathy,

:09:33.:09:38.

there is discontent. TRANSLATION: In the past year the

:09:38.:09:44.

Chinese leaders are all reading one book, the book on the French

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Revolution. People are worried China will have a revolution, we

:09:47.:09:51.

don't want that. For this new leadership, they have just one

:09:51.:09:56.

choice, that is reform. Otherwise they and China will be in big

:09:56.:09:59.

trouble. What should they concentrate on,

:09:59.:10:04.

politics or economics? TRANSLATION: Politics, of course. In economics,

:10:04.:10:09.

the space for further growth is already very limited. Actually, the

:10:09.:10:13.

Chinese people are already quite rich. What we need to solve now are

:10:13.:10:19.

the political problems. ordinary people, who have had no

:10:19.:10:24.

say in the outcome of this week, it is a case of dodging and weaving,

:10:24.:10:27.

surviving. They will wait and see what a new set of people in power

:10:27.:10:35.

can bring. We have been joined by Paul Mason

:10:35.:10:38.

now. That independent scholar saying

:10:38.:10:42.

there is only one choice and that is reform. How can that be

:10:42.:10:45.

reconciled with a conservative committee of seven? We're in the

:10:45.:10:51.

presence of experts, we soon will be. My take on the seven are, three

:10:51.:10:57.

clear conservatives, three neutral technocrat, and one remnant of the

:10:57.:11:07.
:11:07.:11:08.

liberal social welfare faction of Hu Jintao. That will be the new PM,

:11:08.:11:12.

if we take that at a starting point, that is at odds with urban China

:11:12.:11:16.

and young China is feeling. If it is a result of the way the party

:11:16.:11:19.

has genuinely picked its leadership, we don't know, it probably means

:11:19.:11:24.

the party is at odds with the way urban China feels. You could tell

:11:24.:11:28.

from that package, they know that, but their reflex is to respond with

:11:28.:11:32.

more control. Of the two big leaders who are being announced on

:11:32.:11:35.

the front pages of the local newspaper today in Beijing, one is

:11:35.:11:39.

the discipline guy. But they are going to have to address things

:11:39.:11:47.

quickly. The corruption issue is not an abstract one, Muhammad Ali

:11:47.:11:52.

will be dealt with and put on -- Bolshi Li, will have to be dealt

:11:52.:11:56.

with and put on trial. They will have to get a foreign policy, the

:11:56.:11:59.

dispute of China with the islands is playing out on the streets. They

:11:59.:12:05.

will have to respond to that. talked about young China, is that

:12:05.:12:08.

where the pressure is coming from, you spoke to two young women who

:12:08.:12:12.

didn't seem to care less about what was happening. Is your sense that

:12:12.:12:16.

they are the predominant area for change, that will be from the young

:12:16.:12:19.

Chinese? We have had the chance to speak to lot of young people,

:12:19.:12:22.

actually, while we have been here. And I think this is how it strikes

:12:22.:12:27.

me. Three years ago, when I was here, did it matter that you

:12:27.:12:32.

weren't on Facebook and Twitter and Tumblr, and your iPhone suddenly

:12:32.:12:37.

gets switched off when the Congress starts, and you can't search on

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Google for the term "18th Congress", it didn't feel like that. It feels

:12:42.:12:45.

like now that China is adrift from a global conversation. That matters,

:12:45.:12:49.

not just about democracy, but for business, for the business of doing

:12:49.:12:54.

life in the 21st century. It does feel a little bit locked, and the

:12:54.:12:58.

youth feel very locked into their own discussion on their equivalent

:12:58.:13:07.

of Twitter, I would bow, that is a -- weibo, that is abuzz with

:13:07.:13:10.

Sarkism, criticism and concern about national issues. You heard

:13:11.:13:20.

the liberal intellectual in my piece talk about Alexis De

:13:20.:13:24.

Tockville and the book about the French Revolution. On the eve of

:13:24.:13:29.

the French parliament, the author said, "gentlemen, can't you feel

:13:29.:13:33.

the earthquakes coming", that was on the eve of the French Revolution.

:13:33.:13:36.

They have nobody to say anything for them here, they have nobody to

:13:36.:13:46.

say anything whatsoever in their public discourse. With me here now

:13:46.:13:54.

Are my guests. From New York I'm joined by a

:13:54.:13:58.

former Tiananmen Square student leader, Chinese democracy activist

:13:58.:14:03.

and dissident in exile. And from Beijing by the author, Jonathan

:14:03.:14:09.

Fenby.Ed goo evening. First of all, -- good evening, first of all what

:14:09.:14:14.

do you think the main desires are the people, you have family at home,

:14:14.:14:19.

what are their desires? My family, I have brothers, and my mother,

:14:19.:14:24.

they are two generations, and then I have my nephews and cousins. So

:14:24.:14:29.

they actually have changed quite gradually in terms of their quality

:14:29.:14:33.

of life. Their major concern is to get better education, and maybe get

:14:33.:14:41.

a secure job, with a good salary. So the desire today is very

:14:41.:14:46.

different from ten, 20 years ago, from the earlier generation.

:14:46.:14:50.

that quite a big pressure, we heard from the older women in the film

:14:50.:14:54.

saying they want houses they could rent, healthcare, pensions. They

:14:54.:14:58.

are not prosaic demand, but they are very straight forward, they

:14:58.:15:03.

don't seem to be related to essential freedoms? I think they

:15:03.:15:11.

are different layers of a desire. You have to have enough food to eat

:15:11.:15:20.

and clothe. In Chinese it is large ly that, this is contributed by Xi

:15:20.:15:25.

Jinping's reform, this is a Chinese miracle. Today we are talking about

:15:25.:15:30.

people moving in a different stage, a called well off society with a

:15:30.:15:33.

better life. Then you have equality. That is now a problem, the

:15:33.:15:39.

Government have to ease off. You are talking about free -- freedom

:15:39.:15:43.

of speech and democracy. That is a higher level of requirement.

:15:43.:15:48.

Where you sit in New York, you are one of the Tiananmen Square leaders,

:15:48.:15:54.

this idea of this pressure building, do you think it comes, first of all,

:15:54.:15:57.

from the idea that people want a better lifestyle, and a better

:15:57.:16:04.

chance in society, rather than overt political requirement? These

:16:04.:16:11.

are interlinked, people do want a better life, always. And then I

:16:11.:16:17.

agree with the Professor, people often want humble, minimal things.

:16:17.:16:21.

But these things and the political rights are closely tied together.

:16:22.:16:27.

My family, my desire, or my desire of my parents, they want to see me.

:16:27.:16:33.

We haven't seen each other for 23 years. I'm not changing the topic

:16:33.:16:38.

from a National Congress into my family PD business. I'm talking

:16:38.:16:43.

about China is conducting this kind of behaviour, Chinese regime

:16:43.:16:47.

conducting this kind of behaviour, which is unheard in a western

:16:47.:16:52.

democracy. This is the political fact. That has a very direct impact

:16:52.:16:58.

to people's humble, minimum desires. And people must remember, for all

:16:58.:17:01.

its sophistication, and all its economic interaction, that people

:17:01.:17:09.

like you can't go home the Chinese artist, Wei Wei, is under house

:17:09.:17:14.

arrest. This is all part of Chinese life. You were there ten days a

:17:14.:17:16.

Isabel Hilton, when we talk now about the need to actually deal

:17:16.:17:20.

with corruption, it is not a side bar to the economic life of the

:17:20.:17:23.

country, isn't it, it is really central to the economic life of the

:17:23.:17:28.

country? It is absolutely central, but it was, as I'm sure will be

:17:28.:17:32.

confirmed, it was a huge issue in 1989. How long do we have to go on

:17:32.:17:36.

talking about corruption. It has only got worse, since 1989. Funnily

:17:36.:17:40.

enough with social media, et cetera, this idea of citizens surveillance,

:17:40.:17:44.

that if they see a lowly official driving around in a Ferrari, they

:17:44.:17:48.

report him or her. That was impossible before? It was

:17:48.:17:50.

impossible before. But also the scale of corruption was impossible

:17:50.:17:54.

before. The transition to the market, or the semi-market economy,

:17:54.:17:59.

has opened this opportunity for this particular combination of

:17:59.:18:04.

power and money in China. And the party is hugely enriched, if you

:18:04.:18:09.

look at the figures of who are the richest in China, they are

:18:09.:18:11.

predominantly in the party or associated with the party. But the

:18:11.:18:15.

young people that Paul spoke to earlier, seemed non-plused about

:18:15.:18:23.

the result. It was almost, as if it gets better for me then it is OK.

:18:23.:18:27.

You are asking people who have no effect ofpb the outcome. They have

:18:27.:18:34.

to accept what they are given, they can only hope As far as what people

:18:34.:18:39.

hope for and want, what is the party afraid of, people no longer

:18:39.:18:44.

trust it t they mock it liberally, people want health, they are afraid

:18:44.:18:49.

of getting ill, many want afford treament, they know they will be

:18:49.:18:55.

bankrupt, they have tremendous insecurities. The Chinese

:18:55.:19:02.

leadership reading De Tockveiled, is there a fear now, looking at

:19:02.:19:06.

what happens happening in Europe, a time of os terity, people not

:19:06.:19:10.

having jobs -- austerity, people not having jobs, that the worst

:19:10.:19:16.

thing that could happen in China is chaos? DeTockville said one of the

:19:16.:19:20.

main reasons for the French Revolution is things had got better,

:19:20.:19:23.

and the danger of rising living standards, which make people think,

:19:23.:19:29.

no, we will not live as poor, downtrodden peasants for our lives,

:19:29.:19:36.

we want rights. Referring back to things said earlier, there is this

:19:36.:19:39.

sociopolitical undercurrent, that is very strong in China today. It

:19:39.:19:42.

is not a demand for western democracy, as such, it is a demand

:19:42.:19:46.

for rights to property, it is a demand for rights to free speech,

:19:46.:19:51.

it is a demand for right to freedom from the horrible environmental

:19:51.:19:55.

pollution. All these things people are beginning to reach out for, and

:19:55.:20:01.

they want those. The great problem for Xi Jinping, which was evident

:20:01.:20:07.

in his remarks about the need for social progress, yesterday, is can

:20:08.:20:12.

the one-party communist state, with its whole apparatus and power

:20:12.:20:17.

system, cope with those kinds of grassroots demands which are taking

:20:17.:20:20.

place on an enormous scale in China. This is really the big story of

:20:21.:20:24.

China, not the economic story, it is not the formal, political story,

:20:24.:20:27.

it is the social story for the next five years.

:20:27.:20:34.

First of all, I want to talk about Isabel Hilton, ten days ago, were

:20:34.:20:37.

people talking about that undercurrent of discontent, that

:20:37.:20:45.

people want things changed or not? I think it is very present. The

:20:45.:20:49.

party want to put it in the context of without us there is chaos. When

:20:49.:20:52.

they are talking about political reform, they are talking about

:20:52.:20:57.

managing the kind of protests that Jonathan is discussing. And these

:20:58.:21:01.

are very big protests. In the run up to Congress you saw the

:21:01.:21:05.

Government backing down on major environmental protests. Will there

:21:05.:21:10.

be, do you think, will it be like Tiananmen Square, if there is a

:21:10.:21:14.

protest, or will it be something different? You heard from Paul

:21:14.:21:19.

there, saying a new generation, access is global -- accesses global

:21:19.:21:23.

media and 0 son, wants to be in touch with people. Will it be, like

:21:23.:21:28.

if it comes, be like Tiananmen Square? I can't make that

:21:28.:21:32.

prediction, I can report to you this, there are hundreds of

:21:32.:21:37.

thousands of uprisings taking places current low every year, in

:21:37.:21:41.

China. A different scale from different places. -- currently

:21:41.:21:47.

every year, in China, a different scale for different places. Taking

:21:47.:21:51.

a protest to Tiananmen Square it was suppressed 23 years ago, it has

:21:52.:21:55.

established fear for people to do so. The anger and dissatisfaction

:21:55.:22:01.

is very much present, and accumulating there. It is coming up

:22:01.:22:07.

from different directions. Although it may not be another Tiananmen

:22:07.:22:11.

Square, but the Communist Party know the power of something like

:22:11.:22:16.

Tiananmen Square is definitely there. And then it is directly

:22:16.:22:23.

threatening their stability. So the Chinese regime have been spending

:22:24.:22:30.

more money on called maintaining stability than the national defence.

:22:30.:22:35.

Basically, internal security expenditures has exceeded national

:22:35.:22:39.

defence since 2007. The fear is on both sides. People are afraid of

:22:39.:22:43.

the military supression for sure, when you see something like

:22:44.:22:47.

Tiananmen Square happening, and then you kind of leave a fear for

:22:47.:22:53.

sure. But the Communist Party, the regime has also a very strong fear.

:22:53.:22:58.

Very briefly, do you think there is talk that it will be five years and

:22:58.:23:02.

then after five years Xi Jinping will be able to effect the kind of

:23:02.:23:05.

changes he wants to change. Do you think there will be a holding the

:23:05.:23:10.

position for five years, socially and politically, or not? There are

:23:10.:23:17.

two things they have to do to hold this stability. One is to really

:23:17.:23:21.

get out and fight corruption. And establish a clean Government system.

:23:21.:23:30.

That corruption can be prevented. I look at the new leader, they put

:23:30.:23:35.

the person in to fight corruption, he's one of the most respected

:23:35.:23:38.

politicians in China with a reputation outside. I have very

:23:38.:23:43.

good trust in him. The problem with this task is it may be very, very

:23:43.:23:46.

big, how they contend is depending on the number of factor. First of

:23:47.:23:51.

all, the economy has to continue to grow. So the people, materially,

:23:52.:23:56.

they can improve their living standards. So that this content can

:23:56.:24:00.

be suppressed in terms of the improvement of living standards.

:24:00.:24:04.

Then fighting the corruption, and clean up the environment. These are

:24:04.:24:12.

the issues they have to deal with, urgently.

:24:12.:24:17.

Wind farms, rising electricity cost, and forced lower tarrifs, nuclear

:24:17.:24:22.

power station, the Green Deal. Are we not all drown anything a sea of

:24:22.:24:26.

contradictory signals over future energy policy. The Government is

:24:26.:24:30.

xek today publish the long anticipated Energy Bill next week,

:24:30.:24:33.

with open warfare between the parties particularly on the

:24:33.:24:39.

question of offshore wind, will politics or hard evidence dominate

:24:39.:24:44.

the bill? On shore wind is one of the most

:24:44.:24:49.

mature of our renewable sources of energy. Its opponents are vocal.

:24:49.:24:58.

They see turbines as a blight, and resent taxpayer subsidies oinggon

:24:58.:25:03.

that. There is a row over how many wind turbines like these we want to

:25:03.:25:07.

build to meet our will electricity needs. What is the best energy

:25:07.:25:10.

option environmental low, and how much are we, the taxpayer, prepared

:25:10.:25:15.

to pay for it. Renewables advocates argue that the

:25:15.:25:22.

cost of on shore wind is falling. On-shore wind, today, costs us

:25:22.:25:26.

about 20% of what it cost us when we started to build it. As the cost

:25:26.:25:34.

come down, we would expect the invent advisers in development of

:25:34.:25:39.

wind to come down, incentivisers in development of wind come down. And

:25:39.:25:44.

the Government accepted a 10% reduction in that support mechanism

:25:44.:25:47.

What is a fair assessment of the economics of wind power. One

:25:47.:25:52.

comparison is the relative cost of generating a unit of electricity.

:25:52.:25:59.

Current estimates suggest on-shore wind comes out at the two-thirds

:25:59.:26:03.

the cost of offshore wind. At its cheapest it costs about the same at

:26:03.:26:06.

gas, at the most expensive it is comparable with coal. And it comes

:26:06.:26:12.

in about the same cost as nuclear. Though researchers warn that

:26:12.:26:16.

nuclear costs could rise. On shore wind is one of the most cost

:26:16.:26:21.

effective options we have got, it is one of the most cost effective

:26:21.:26:28.

low-carbon options we have got. Meeting our targets without on

:26:28.:26:32.

shore wind would be particularly hard to do. This is where renewable

:26:32.:26:42.
:26:42.:26:46.

28% from on shore wind, about half as much from offshore wind, and

:26:46.:26:51.

then solar. Overall, renewable sources provide only Tyney slice sf

:26:51.:26:57.

our total energy needs. Just -- tiny slice of our total energy

:26:57.:27:03.

needs. About 10%. We are committed to producing 15% of total energy

:27:03.:27:07.

from renewables. Those who prefer a free market approach, say subsidies

:27:08.:27:15.

and targets are the wrong way to shift us to a a different energy

:27:15.:27:20.

supply. The only targets that are mar are reducing carbon emissions.

:27:20.:27:25.

The renewable energy target is not an important part of meeting that.

:27:25.:27:30.

In some ways it gets in the way. A much better approach is a long-term,

:27:30.:27:33.

and tougher carbon price, tkphrifrd either through a tax or through --

:27:33.:27:37.

delivered either through a tax or cap. Some support for technology.

:27:37.:27:43.

But get to go a stage where these technologies -- getting to a stage

:27:43.:27:45.

where these technologies compete against each other for the cheapest

:27:45.:27:49.

way of delivering energy. On shore wind has become a flash point for

:27:49.:27:53.

the coalition Government. With Conservative minister, John Hayes

:27:53.:27:57.

complaining too many turbines have been peppered across the UK, and

:27:57.:28:03.

enough a enough. His Lib Dem boss, Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, slapped

:28:03.:28:10.

him down, he went on to Claire it is "job done" on wind. 100 Tory MPs

:28:10.:28:14.

wrote to David Cameron demanding a cut to subsidies for on shore wind.

:28:14.:28:18.

This close to the expected publication of the energy bill, we

:28:18.:28:20.

believe there are dope disagreements within the Government

:28:20.:28:26.

of getting drafting. Getting those complex details right will be key

:28:26.:28:30.

to getting investment into the British power sector. Not just

:28:30.:28:35.

interrenewables, but wind, gas and nuclear and the whole piece. The

:28:35.:28:39.

difficulty is, that despite getting the detail right, even if the

:28:39.:28:44.

Government gets the detail right, which remains to be seen. This

:28:44.:28:48.

political wrangling over the whole low-carbon agenda, over the best

:28:48.:28:53.

way to meet targets, and over the role for on-shore wind, is

:28:53.:28:56.

undermining the aspirations of the bill. The key thing to understand

:28:56.:29:00.

about MPs and politicians is we're not experts on the environment,

:29:00.:29:03.

we're there to represent our constituents. Our contribution

:29:03.:29:06.

really is to talk about the details. What it feels like in the local

:29:06.:29:11.

area. What the effect there is on the local economy, and how it

:29:11.:29:15.

affects people's homes and lifelyhoods. I think that matters -

:29:15.:29:18.

- livelihoods, and I think that matters, and the Government will

:29:18.:29:24.

listen. The bigger issue to focus on is energy for the next 30-40

:29:24.:29:29.

years. The row over on shore wind could take the focus away from the

:29:29.:29:36.

bigger energy challenge managing a tough reduction in carbon eMiGs and

:29:36.:29:43.

an energy supply we can rely on. Liyuan sits on the energy and

:29:43.:29:49.

climate change Select Committee. And L Ron Hubbard from the Lib Dems.

:29:49.:29:58.

The country -- Mark Hoban, from the Lib Dems.

:29:58.:30:02.

The real point is Ed Davey, has made it clear the Government's

:30:02.:30:05.

commitment is clear. We will make sure that the Government commitment

:30:05.:30:13.

to provide 30% of UK elect trisry from new renewable sources --

:30:13.:30:17.

electricity from renewable sources continues. I'm sure that David

:30:17.:30:24.

Cameron will make sure John Hayes sticks to policy. John Hayes, sorry,

:30:24.:30:32.

Ed Davey disagrees with John Hayes, there will be no more on-shore wind

:30:32.:30:35.

turbine, they are not going to happen. The commitment shared, we

:30:35.:30:39.

will make sure the Conservatives stick to it, is to have the 60%

:30:39.:30:43.

renewable component by 2020. There are a number of ways. As your

:30:43.:30:49.

graphic showed, on-shore wind is by far the cheapest of those. It would

:30:49.:30:53.

seem odd at this time for John Hayes to argue to spend more money

:30:53.:30:57.

than necessary. We need to spend more money on renewables, it will

:30:57.:31:03.

save a lot on gas bills. But on- shore wind has a great place.

:31:03.:31:07.

quite obvious, that there is a deep devise in the coalition for this.

:31:07.:31:10.

The Financial Times on-line has reported they have had to delay a

:31:10.:31:15.

meeting of the Quad, because they can't even agree a policy a week

:31:15.:31:21.

before the energy bill is published. Maybe you will have to give way and

:31:21.:31:25.

say on-shore energy and renewable energy, needs to be ramped up

:31:25.:31:28.

again? What matters here is actually what works. Coalition

:31:28.:31:32.

politics will play out as it will do. I'm more interested in the

:31:32.:31:37.

long-term energy future of my country, and if you look at it, on-

:31:37.:31:41.

shore wind and particularly off- shore wind, isn't a way of

:31:41.:31:44.

guarnteeing energy security in the future. We have obligations, Julian

:31:44.:31:49.

is right, we have obligations with Europe, we have legislation in

:31:49.:31:53.

place with regards to the proportion of renewables in the

:31:53.:31:58.

energy mix. You don't want them to be wind turbine, you don't want on-

:31:58.:32:03.

shore energy to be delivered by turbines? The difficulty is local

:32:03.:32:06.

communities who have the wind farms don't want them. They would be more

:32:06.:32:11.

likely to want them if the figures add up. I'm a scientist and so is

:32:11.:32:15.

Julian, the physics of wind power doesn't add up. You mean the

:32:15.:32:21.

science is underpinning George Osborne's anti-pathy to it? I think

:32:21.:32:27.

the economics is underspinning that anti-pathy. Ultimately we have a

:32:27.:32:30.

challenge with regards to energy in the near future. We have to solve

:32:30.:32:40.

it, in the most cost pective way. George Osborne, -- Cost effective

:32:40.:32:43.

way. George Osborne and Danny Alexander are completely divided on

:32:43.:32:46.

this. What should the electorate make of it? It should make that we

:32:46.:32:50.

are trying very hard to stick to our commitment, and I hope the

:32:50.:32:53.

Conservatives will stick to the things that they said. We will make

:32:53.:32:59.

sure this is the greenest Government ever. I was surprised by

:32:59.:33:03.

the comment by Philip, about the physics of wind not adding up.

:33:03.:33:06.

People around the countries are looking at wind because it is cheap.

:33:07.:33:11.

We have reduced the supsidies to it because it is affordable and worked

:33:11.:33:17.

well. The tragedy is we didn't do more wind power 20 years ago, when

:33:17.:33:22.

the Shetlands were doing it. We could export the technology around

:33:22.:33:25.

the world. It is a huge business growth for the UK, we shouldn't

:33:25.:33:28.

walk away from it. You I do this what will govern this in the end,

:33:28.:33:33.

sadly, one way or the other, will be politics, and not the scientific

:33:33.:33:41.

evidence? Sadly, for my taste, as a former scientist, sadly, not enough

:33:41.:33:45.

scientific evidence is taken account of. But the science it

:33:45.:33:48.

clear, the chief scientific adviser in the Department of Climate change,

:33:48.:33:53.

wrote an excellent book, Sustainable Energy Without Hot Air,

:33:53.:33:56.

it goes through the science and how it adds up. There are lots of ways

:33:57.:34:00.

of providing energy for this country, if you want to do it

:34:00.:34:03.

without on-shore wind it will cost more.

:34:03.:34:08.

If you haven't had text, e-mail or phone call, or all three, to say

:34:08.:34:13.

you are in line for a big PPI payment, then, most probably, lucky

:34:13.:34:18.

you. With at least �12 billion put aside by the banks to compensate

:34:18.:34:21.

customers mis-sold payment protection plans, there is a new

:34:21.:34:25.

growth industry in claims management companies. An associated

:34:25.:34:28.

get-rich-quick and unregulated claims handler. They are the bane

:34:28.:34:31.

of many people's lives. Tonight Newsnight explains how they are

:34:31.:34:36.

doing it. It has been a long day at work, all

:34:36.:34:41.

you want to do kick back in front of the TV. (phone rings) What's

:34:41.:34:45.

this? One calling me. I bet it is one of my close friends calling for

:34:45.:34:55.

a gossip. Autoed voice) Hello, did you know dfrpb (automated voice)

:34:55.:35:02.

Did you know you could be entitled to compensation) No I don't. There

:35:02.:35:07.

are plenty of options to get your money back if you were mis-sold PPI

:35:07.:35:12.

insurance, with the help of the Government and ombudsmen groups.

:35:12.:35:18.

You could use an intermediary firm to apply on the banks on your

:35:18.:35:22.

behalf, claims management companies. They tell you the exact amount that

:35:22.:35:28.

awaits you, you won't have to sign everything. Your verbal agreement

:35:28.:35:33.

to act on your behalf acts as a contract, and business is booming.

:35:33.:35:39.

For years having mis-sold shruerpbs in case you couldn't pay --

:35:39.:35:43.

insurance in case you couldn't pay a loan, the banks have admitted

:35:43.:35:47.

they were wrong and they have agreed to put aside �13 billion to

:35:47.:35:54.

pay out PPI. Almost half has been paid out already already. It

:35:54.:35:58.

created many Companies Acting on customers behalf, and taking 25%

:35:58.:36:06.

cut at least from every successful payout. Averages �100 fees for

:36:06.:36:15.

middle men, -- �11 fees for middle men being -- �1100 fees for middle

:36:15.:36:20.

men being paid out. Consumer groups are worried that there will be

:36:20.:36:23.

victims twice? This business is unnecessary, and adds burden and

:36:23.:36:26.

costs to the general public, who are actually the victims in all of

:36:26.:36:30.

this, and shouldn't have to suffer more than they do already. Here are

:36:30.:36:34.

the three ways a customer can claim money back if they have been mis-

:36:34.:36:39.

sold PPI. The simplest way is by approaching the bank directly and

:36:39.:36:44.

they will investigate and pay out if the claim is legitimate. Next is

:36:44.:36:49.

customers to approach a CMC to act on their behalf, and to the banks

:36:49.:36:54.

taking a fee of a quarter of what the bank pays out. This is where

:36:54.:37:00.

the Spam texts and disembodied calls come in, this is number three.

:37:01.:37:04.

Companies randomly generate mobile phone numbers in Britain, and text

:37:04.:37:10.

or call them prop missing a big pay day. Someone nibbles, that

:37:10.:37:15.

information is sold for around �40 to a more legitimate CMC, who then

:37:15.:37:23.

pursues the claim. Spamers and cold callers are often,

:37:23.:37:27.

but not often district from claims management companies. Spaming us

:37:27.:37:32.

without our consent is illegal. Bombarding us with TV adverts is

:37:32.:37:36.

not. If the claims management companies didn't pay the Spamers

:37:36.:37:41.

for leads containing our information, then the telephonic

:37:41.:37:48.

bombardment wouldn't have turned into the epidemic it has.

:37:48.:37:53.

Hello. Do you know you could be entitled to compensation over mis-

:37:53.:37:57.

sold payment protection insurance. I have had several calls, I'm not

:37:57.:38:00.

interested. Spare a thought for the banks

:38:00.:38:04.

originally mis-sold PPI, they have had to hire thousands of extra

:38:04.:38:08.

staff to process the claims and rebates. Of the claims they get,

:38:08.:38:14.

half come from claims management companies, of that number, 40% are

:38:14.:38:18.

deemed bogus. Long dead customer, duplicate claims, people who never

:38:18.:38:22.

bought PPI in the first place, the banks want to put a full stop on

:38:22.:38:26.

the issue. They are lobbying hard with the FSA, to set a date beyond

:38:26.:38:29.

which there may be no further claims. Don't expect that to happen

:38:29.:38:32.

before 2014. Now the Ministry of Justice is also

:38:32.:38:39.

concerned about this issue, in future, it wants all contracts with

:38:39.:38:43.

CMCs to be in writinger rather that over the phone. That seems --

:38:43.:38:46.

writing rather than the phones. Until then the phone calls and

:38:47.:38:50.

texts will continue, and the profiteering off the back of it.

:38:50.:38:54.

What the hell is wrong with you, I'm not interested in making any

:38:54.:38:57.

claims. How did you even get my number? Never call me again, all

:38:57.:39:03.

right. I'm joined by Jacky Doyle Price a

:39:03.:39:06.

Conservative MP who recently called a debate about claims management

:39:06.:39:11.

company, and Andy Wigmore, from the Claims Standards Council. The trade

:39:11.:39:13.

Association for Claims management companies.

:39:13.:39:19.

Andy Wigmore, 85% of us are getting the calls and texts and on-line

:39:19.:39:21.

stuff, because these guys are he will ising the information to your

:39:22.:39:26.

claims management companies? Yeah, we can put this into some kind of

:39:26.:39:33.

concept, this flood, this tsunami of text messages created by two

:39:33.:39:37.

individuals, and out of the jurisdiction of this country.

:39:37.:39:42.

say, "two" individuals, I would be surprised. Out of what country?

:39:42.:39:47.

have identified where it is coming from, in India. They have this

:39:47.:39:52.

superserver that randomly generates millions of these text messages.

:39:52.:39:55.

doesn't matter, OK that is happening. They are presumably

:39:55.:40:00.

enterprising guys and not stopping. The point is, people are giving

:40:00.:40:04.

information, which you, your members are buying, of course they

:40:04.:40:09.

are going to do it? Absolutely. You have to put it into some context.

:40:09.:40:12.

Why is there an issue relating to this? It is because the banks,

:40:12.:40:16.

remember, they stole �12 billion and the consumer has a right to get

:40:16.:40:26.

that back. It is OK for me to get a text last week which says I'm owed

:40:26.:40:30.

�5,500, and never heard a peep. It is OK for people, elderly, and

:40:30.:40:35.

infirm, it is OK to get that? is random. There is no

:40:35.:40:39.

justification. That is no justification. I agree, these

:40:39.:40:44.

isolated individuals have flooded the market with the Spam text

:40:44.:40:49.

messages. Not claim companies. one last thing at this stage, why

:40:49.:40:53.

on earth do you suggest that your members should feel perfectly

:40:53.:40:58.

legitimate to take information from these people? Because if we look at

:40:58.:41:00.

what happened in the beginning. If the banks had got their act

:41:00.:41:04.

together in the first place, you wouldn't have the issue. Kirsty,

:41:04.:41:09.

people didn't know they had PPI or were entitled to it, that is why

:41:09.:41:12.

you have the business allowing that to happen. Some claims are

:41:12.:41:16.

legitimate and people have had money back? That's right. But the

:41:16.:41:19.

reality is they don't need to use a claims management company to get

:41:19.:41:25.

the refund. The banks have set aside the �12 billion, they call up

:41:26.:41:30.

the bank and ask to put a claim in. The banks are backward rather than

:41:30.:41:33.

coming forward with information? That is true, the regulator was

:41:34.:41:37.

backward in coming forward with the information. We don't want to see

:41:37.:41:42.

that repeated with these company. The ministry -- Companies.

:41:42.:41:47.

Ministry of Justice looked at the regulation of the claims management

:41:47.:41:53.

companies and didn't look at cold calling? This is regulatory, it is

:41:53.:41:57.

regulated by Ofcom and the ICO. We have to match this up they need to

:41:57.:42:00.

look at it. I'm a sure it doesn't feel to all the people getting

:42:01.:42:05.

calls that it is underregulated? certainly doesn't. And it is really

:42:05.:42:08.

becoming epidemic now. We are into that phase where there is still

:42:08.:42:11.

this pot of money, and claims management companies have got the

:42:11.:42:14.

opportunity to make lots of money out of it. They are trying

:42:14.:42:19.

everything. It is cost-free and risk-free for them to do this.

:42:20.:42:24.

Citizens Advice Bureau report cites a number of examples, an 84-year-

:42:24.:42:29.

old woman, with a credit card, was not covered by PPI, but was

:42:29.:42:33.

persuaded to go in with a claims management company, they charged

:42:33.:42:39.

her �359 on a credit card, and she didn't have a PPI. That is wrong,

:42:39.:42:44.

there are regulatory structure for that. There are a small proportion

:42:44.:42:47.

of rogues giving the rest of us a bad name.

:42:47.:42:52.

How do you know it is a small few? Those companies that operate

:42:52.:42:55.

properly follow strict rules. The claims managed regulator has been

:42:55.:42:58.

very effective cleaning up the industry. You can't control the

:42:58.:43:01.

rogues, they are criminal, often, and these people will abuse the

:43:01.:43:06.

consumer. You can say, I represent the claims

:43:06.:43:09.

management council, and no claims management company is going to take

:43:09.:43:14.

information from rogue traders in India? There are issues around it.

:43:15.:43:18.

What is wrong with marketing in this context. Look at the Royal

:43:18.:43:23.

Mail yesterday, they wanted to encourage more mail, the mailbox of

:43:23.:43:27.

the 20th century is your phone, that will increase. The Citizens

:43:27.:43:30.

Advice Bureau says you are out of control? I think that is a very

:43:30.:43:32.

poor report. They have been involved in a lot of the regulatory

:43:32.:43:37.

issues, they have seen a lot of the intelligence. Author of that has

:43:37.:43:41.

been incredibly lazy or had his ear shut. I have to disagree with that.

:43:41.:43:45.

My constituents have been coming into my surgery, giving exactly

:43:45.:43:49.

these sorts of examples. I have a constituent who was cold-called by

:43:49.:43:54.

a claims management company, she asked for the form, and submitted

:43:54.:43:58.

it herself, and saddled with a bill of 30% of her refund. The company

:43:58.:44:02.

did nothing to get her refund. Consumers don't know they have a

:44:02.:44:07.

PPI or are entitle. Most people are on the fishing exercise. If they

:44:07.:44:13.

don't want to use a claims management company they can do it

:44:13.:44:17.

themselves. You are exploiting their lack of knowledge? If a

:44:17.:44:20.

claims management company educates them, what is wrong with that, it

:44:20.:44:24.

is giving the consumer the opportunity to get dedress and give

:44:24.:44:28.

them the money the banks stole from them. How much of your work are you

:44:28.:44:32.

getting through texts and on-line contact? It is a mix of marketing.

:44:32.:44:35.

Most of the regulated claims management companies aren't allowed

:44:35.:44:40.

to cold call, it is a criminal act, and they don't, the Ministry of

:44:40.:44:43.

Justice is very hard coming down on these organisations. There is good

:44:43.:44:46.

and bad companies, unfortunately it is the bad companies that give the

:44:46.:44:53.

rest a bad name. What we need to do is keep the pressure up, Andy

:44:53.:44:57.

represents 100 companies, there are 3,000 in the market. That is a lot

:44:57.:45:06.

to catch up. On the night that Xi Jinping started his rule. Artists

:45:06.:45:16.
:45:16.:45:20.

in London are recreating Chinese artist, WeiWei, the Gangman style,

:45:20.:45:26.

and it was dis -- banned in China. The floor belongs to the Chinese

:45:26.:45:36.
:45:36.:46:03.

# Go gangnamstyle # Go gangnamstyle

:46:03.:46:06.

# Woop gangnamstyle Let's lift the gloom, the weekend

:46:06.:46:10.

is brighter. Dreary and cloud through tomorrow. Rain turning up

:46:10.:46:12.

across large parts of Northern Ireland and Scotland. Further south

:46:12.:46:15.

a few brighter breaks, but generally rather cloudy, and

:46:15.:46:19.

showery bursts of rain setting in across parts of Wales. Eventually

:46:19.:46:22.

the north Midlands too. Further south and east, as you can see a

:46:22.:46:27.

lot of dry, although overcast weather A few glimpses of sunshine,

:46:27.:46:32.

perhaps towards the coast of the south-east, most will stay

:46:32.:46:35.

stubbornly overcast. Rain setting in across parts of south-west

:46:35.:46:39.

England and certainly west Wales. As we go into the evening time, it

:46:39.:46:46.

could turn wet inside. -- indeed. In Northern Ireland a soggy end to

:46:46.:46:51.

the day, not warm either, seven or eight degrees, that rain becoming

:46:51.:46:54.

more widespread across Scotland, as we end the day, particularly out

:46:54.:46:58.

west. Rain around as we hit the weekend. Good news is it will clear

:46:58.:47:02.

away during the course of Saturday, brighter but colder, and the

:47:02.:47:06.

showers across Scotland will fall down to low levels. Further south,

:47:06.:47:12.

it will take a wee while for rain to clear. It are do, the sun

:47:12.:47:15.

continuing into Sunday as well. That is good news. This is

:47:15.:47:17.