16/11/2012 Newsnight


16/11/2012

Louise Mensch explains why she quit her seat, handing it to Labour. Gaza and Israel. Turnout collapses in the Police Commissioner elections. With Eddie Mair.


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Labour's first by-election gain from the Conservatives in 15 years.

:00:13.:00:19.

Is it a straw in the wind? Labour's just won in Corby, and the Labour

:00:19.:00:24.

leader, Ed Miliband, is about to turn up in this village, Middleton.

:00:24.:00:28.

Middle town, Middle England, you can see what message they are

:00:28.:00:32.

trying to ram home. Or was it down to one person? Louise Mensch

:00:32.:00:36.

triggered the election when she fled Westminster for New York. We

:00:36.:00:39.

will ask if she blames herself. Reports tonight that Israel will

:00:39.:00:49.

call up 75,000 army reservists, is a ground war in Gaza inevitable.

:00:49.:00:53.

Particularly as Jerusalem seems to be the latest target for Hamas. A

:00:53.:00:58.

peace maker, who has been down this road before, gives his verdict. As

:00:58.:01:04.

Police Commissioner fever hits England, we will look at the case

:01:04.:01:07.

of the empty ballot box. We will speak to a woman who knows

:01:07.:01:17.
:01:17.:01:18.

how it works in Gotham. There were two recounts in the

:01:18.:01:21.

Corby by-election today, but not cause the Labour victory was in any

:01:21.:01:25.

doubt, the flurry of extra activity was caused by the Liberal Democrats,

:01:25.:01:29.

who thought they were in with a chance of saving their deposit.

:01:29.:01:33.

They weren't. They were a fourth, behind a resurgent UKIP, and a

:01:33.:01:37.

Conservative candidate who was drafted in after the high-profile,

:01:37.:01:40.

sitting Conservative, went to spend more time with her family. The

:01:40.:01:43.

Labour candidate will be seeing a lot less of his. He won with a

:01:43.:01:48.

swing of more than 12%. Allegra Stratton spent the day in the

:01:48.:01:57.

constituency. A by-election is pretty standard

:01:57.:02:00.

fare. In fact, maybe without you noticing it t around this country,

:02:00.:02:04.

there have been at least half-a- dozen since this Government changed

:02:04.:02:07.

hands. There are a couple more later this month. Ballots, licked,

:02:07.:02:12.

posted and flicked, in Britain these bite-sized referendums have

:02:12.:02:16.

been more frequent than hot weather. What on earth was all the fuss

:02:16.:02:24.

about today? Or what on Mars? Let me introduce you to the Corby

:02:24.:02:28.

crater, this isn't really it, we couldn't afford it, it will do. The

:02:28.:02:33.

real Corby create certificate a great big hole on Mars. But the

:02:33.:02:37.

departure of Louise Mensch for New York, leaves a Tory-shaped hole in

:02:37.:02:42.

Corby. It threatens to scar David Cameron's tenure, it will be the

:02:42.:02:45.

first his party has lost since joining Government. Here we are in

:02:45.:02:48.

Corby at the scene of the destruction wrought by Louise

:02:48.:02:53.

Mensch T looks like a huge hole have been driven through David

:02:53.:02:56.

Cameron's leadership. It wasn't meant to be like this.

:02:56.:03:00.

SuperThursday was supposed to see a Conservative and Liberal Democrat

:03:00.:03:03.

uprise, voters were to flock to the polls to vote for the Prime

:03:03.:03:07.

Minister's new idea, police chiefs. It appears they haven't, and the

:03:07.:03:10.

by-election doesn't look good either. Is this a new low for David

:03:10.:03:15.

Cameron. You lot are feeling it in Corby? I have a lot of friend out

:03:15.:03:19.

of work. I'm out of work. I haven't worked in a long time. You know. I

:03:19.:03:22.

have tried to get a job, you know, but it is so hard out there, you

:03:22.:03:28.

know. One study described Corby as the

:03:28.:03:31.

UK's hot spot for youth unemployment. People in Cameron

:03:31.:03:35.

Court voted on this, on the possibility of a hospital service

:03:35.:03:43.

closure, and on immigration. the people that came round about

:03:43.:03:48.

the Conservatives and the other parties, didn't seem interested in

:03:48.:03:53.

local issues. About the hospital, and what's going on, and what was

:03:53.:03:58.

happening. To just generally, and I just thought, well, this time I'm

:03:58.:04:01.

voting, I know who I'm going to vote for, the people that were

:04:01.:04:06.

anxious to talk to me and listen to me. Hilda told me about her fears

:04:06.:04:09.

of immigration, her son had had managed a team of foreign workers

:04:09.:04:17.

before losing his work while they stayed on. Ed Miliband devoteds of

:04:17.:04:23.

his conference speech to curbing the once uncurbable, EU immigration.

:04:23.:04:27.

You clearly like the local candidate, what about the national

:04:27.:04:31.

candidate, Ed Miliband? Well, some things are good, I don't understand

:04:31.:04:35.

him sometimes. What don't you understand? Well, he seems a bit,

:04:35.:04:41.

which he was, when he came here, he didn't even come into the town, he

:04:41.:04:44.

went to one of the of the villages. Moments later, Labour would be

:04:44.:04:51.

declared the winner. And I do here by declare that Andrew Sawford is

:04:51.:04:55.

duly elected as member of parliament. The first victory for

:04:55.:05:02.

the newly-coined One Nation Labour Party. Labour's just won in Corby,

:05:02.:05:07.

that is why Ed Miliband is just turning up in this village,

:05:07.:05:10.

Middleton, middle town, Middle England, you can see what message

:05:10.:05:15.

they are trying to ram home here. Cheers here in Middleton, but

:05:15.:05:19.

elsewhere in the country, Labour had had failed to win the mayoral

:05:19.:05:23.

election in Bristol. Last month the Tory peer, Lord Ashcroft, had

:05:23.:05:26.

published polling showing that, while many Tories were switching to

:05:26.:05:30.

Labour in Corby, not as many could see Milliband as Prime Minister.

:05:30.:05:35.

Remember from earlier, our interviewee Hilda, who lived in

:05:35.:05:38.

Cameron Court. REPORTER: Can we ask you a quick question, we have

:05:38.:05:42.

spoken to Labour voters who liked Andy Sawford a lot, they voted for

:05:42.:05:47.

them, but said you were in their words, wishy washy. Do you have

:05:47.:05:52.

have more work to do? We always have more work to do. Do you

:05:52.:05:56.

personally have more work to do? always have more work to do, they

:05:56.:05:59.

shows people are turning to the Labour, and listening to our

:05:59.:06:02.

message. We will take the message across the country. On the eve of

:06:02.:06:07.

his victory, in 197, Tony Blair won in the Wirral South by-election w a

:06:07.:06:12.

swing of 17%. Today, Ed Miliband saw a swing of nearly 13%, that's

:06:12.:06:17.

more than the 8% swing to his party when it last captured the seat from

:06:17.:06:22.

the Conservatives in 1997. But the Tories today pointed out that in

:06:22.:06:29.

the Crewe and nat witch by-election, there was a 17.6 % swing for them,

:06:29.:06:32.

that was just before they formed part of a Government. Back to the

:06:32.:06:35.

here and now, today there was euphoria for UKIP, they knocked the

:06:35.:06:39.

Liberal Democrats into fourth place. With UKIP doing so well, the Prime

:06:39.:06:41.

Minister comes under greater pressure to act tough on Europe.

:06:41.:06:48.

For the people of Cameron Court, is it all over for their prime

:06:48.:06:52.

ministerial name sake? Most people we spoke to here actually voted

:06:52.:06:55.

Labour. Elsewhere in public opinion, there may be a bit more hope for

:06:55.:07:00.

the Prime Minister. Last week when he was accosted on national

:07:00.:07:03.

television with a list of supposed paedophiles, that may have been a

:07:03.:07:06.

defining moment for him. The Prime Minister's own pollsters show that

:07:06.:07:10.

the public thought he handled it rather well. So this period in the

:07:10.:07:12.

parliament may not actually be too much of a low point for David

:07:13.:07:17.

Cameron. If true, Corby has not yet noticed.

:07:17.:07:20.

David Cameron will have to work to ensure he remembers Louise Mensch

:07:20.:07:26.

for her time in parliament, rather than her departure.

:07:26.:07:30.

Louise Mensch, who was the Conservative MP for Corby, is in

:07:30.:07:35.

New York. Was this defeat your fault? Yes, it was. Absolutely. I

:07:35.:07:39.

had to resign to be with my family. Not because I couldn't take the

:07:39.:07:42.

pressure, the Prime Minister was very good about allowing me to work

:07:42.:07:46.

my schedule around my children. But because my husband lived in America,

:07:47.:07:50.

and we were facing a possible 13- year separation from each other.

:07:50.:07:54.

That doesn't make it any easier for the party on the ground, and I know

:07:54.:07:59.

this was really difficult for them. Under those circumstances, I think

:07:59.:08:09.
:08:09.:08:10.

a swing of 12% in Crewe and Natwitch, it was a good result

:08:10.:08:13.

really. I think they will be quietly pleased by it. Thank you

:08:13.:08:16.

for that, this is pretty bad for the Conservatives, you are in a

:08:16.:08:19.

worse position in Corby than you were at the height of Tony Blair's

:08:19.:08:22.

powers in 1997, your share of the vote significantly down? With

:08:22.:08:27.

respect, it is a by-election. I don't think the governing party has

:08:27.:08:30.

won a marginal by-election in something like 20 years. We have

:08:30.:08:34.

seen over and over again, even safe seats change hands against the

:08:34.:08:37.

governing party, in a by-election. That is when they didn't have to

:08:37.:08:41.

contend with a sitting MP leaving for family reasons. Now, under

:08:41.:08:45.

those circumstance, to get 12% swing is pretty run of the mill, if

:08:45.:08:49.

that. So I don't think that it's anything that we can draw wider

:08:49.:08:53.

lessons from. And indeed, we saw in Labour's failure to take Bristol

:08:53.:08:57.

that the message hasn't gone out across the country. It is a by-

:08:57.:09:00.

election situation and by-election result. What about all your former

:09:00.:09:03.

constituents, telling Allegra it was about unemployment, immigration

:09:03.:09:07.

and hospitals, not about you? of them were saying that. But of

:09:07.:09:11.

course these are vox pop, it depend where is you go. The anecdotal

:09:11.:09:15.

evidence on the ground was people didn't really understand why I had

:09:16.:09:23.

left, and they were understandably disappointed. I can very much see

:09:23.:09:27.

that, an MP should see out the term if they possibly can. I couldn't do

:09:27.:09:33.

that, I always will regret having put the party in that position.

:09:33.:09:38.

you think they couldn't understand because your version of events was

:09:38.:09:40.

flatly contradicted publicly by your husband? That was on the

:09:40.:09:47.

doorstep before I came out. These the perils of not talking politics

:09:47.:09:50.

with my very left-wing husband. This isn't about talking politic,

:09:50.:09:54.

this is talking family, you said you went to New York to keep family

:09:54.:09:59.

together. He said she thought she would get killed at the next

:09:59.:10:03.

election? That wasn't a reason. Early on in my term as an MP, I

:10:03.:10:07.

would worry about the polls and confide that to Peter. Once I had

:10:07.:10:11.

made the decision to step down any way, which I might say was a front

:10:11.:10:15.

page story in my local paper in October 2011, it is a matter of

:10:15.:10:19.

public record. When you decide to step down at the next election, you

:10:19.:10:22.

stop worrying about the polls. If you are not running, they don't

:10:22.:10:26.

matter. Worries about elections are a reason not to stand again, not a

:10:27.:10:30.

reason to leave mid-term. Your husband also says you were worried

:10:30.:10:33.

about not being promoted, perhaps you weren't Conservative Party

:10:33.:10:39.

enough, that have another reason? That's Peter's view, not mine. With

:10:39.:10:44.

apologies to the Labour MP, Austin Mitchell who said I shouldn't

:10:44.:10:48.

contradict my master in public. Peter, who loves me very much, was

:10:48.:10:51.

much more worried about it than I was. Contrary to public view, I

:10:51.:10:55.

never wanted to be a minister. I remember asking the Chief Whip if I

:10:55.:11:01.

one day might make PPS. I had small children to look after, two days in

:11:01.:11:03.

my constituencies, I never could have done it in the first place and

:11:04.:11:08.

I never wanted to. If you are taking all the blame for this, as

:11:08.:11:12.

you have so candidly done, and if this defeat does turn out to be the

:11:12.:11:14.

beginning of the end for David Cameron, that is quite something to

:11:14.:11:18.

hang around your neck, isn't it? Well, the one doesn't follow from

:11:18.:11:22.

the other. I do have to take the blame for this defeat, whilst at

:11:22.:11:25.

the same time knowing there was genuinely no other choice for my

:11:25.:11:28.

family. It was nothing something I would have done frivolously. But as

:11:28.:11:33.

I said, a by-election with a modest, historic swing, is not going to

:11:33.:11:37.

mean anything to David Cameron's leadership. The same polling that

:11:37.:11:40.

exactly predicted the margin of victory in Corby, showed that

:11:40.:11:44.

voters in the constituency prefer the economic team of David Cameron

:11:44.:11:50.

and George Osborne to Milliband and Balls, I don't think this has any

:11:50.:11:54.

wider conotations whatsoever. Thank you. The conflict in the

:11:54.:11:57.

Middle East has escalated further. For the first time, a rocket was

:11:57.:12:01.

aimed at Jerusalem itself. Tonight there are reports that the Israeli

:12:01.:12:06.

cabinet has approved 75,000 reservists to be called up, earlier

:12:06.:12:12.

the President of Egypt visited Gaza to show solidarity. Not far away,

:12:12.:12:16.

across the border, Israeli tanks lined up, amid widespread

:12:16.:12:23.

speculation that Israel would launch a ground invasion.

:12:23.:12:27.

As missiles arc across the skies of Israel and Gaza, it is a conflict

:12:27.:12:35.

apparently shooting out of control. New terrors sent Israelis

:12:35.:12:44.

scrambling for shelter. Destruction is raining down again on Gaza. In a

:12:44.:12:49.

Middle East, transformed by the Arab uprisings, can hostilities

:12:49.:12:53.

still be contained? For Israel, the shock today was that citizens,

:12:53.:12:58.

living in the sent of the country, around Tel Aviv and -- centre of

:12:58.:13:01.

the country, around Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, were forced into

:13:01.:13:05.

shelters, by rockets from Gaza, that normally only reach southern

:13:05.:13:14.

towns near the border. In many respects the state of Israel is

:13:14.:13:22.

more locked together in a common fate with the poor people in

:13:22.:13:25.

southern Ashkelon who have been absorbing the rocket attacks for

:13:25.:13:32.

years. The big cities, without casualties, is a major blow for

:13:32.:13:40.

Hamas militant groups, it is achieved, partly with the longer

:13:40.:13:46.

range missiles, manufactured by Israel's worst enemy, Iran. When

:13:46.:13:52.

you have air raid signals going off for the first time since 19 1.

:13:52.:13:55.

Today it is Iranian manufactured weapons, but it means Iranian

:13:55.:13:59.

ballistic missiles, can they also get through Israel's missile

:13:59.:14:03.

defences, can they also strike Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and other cities.

:14:03.:14:08.

Today Israeli tanks moved towards Gaza's border, as tens of thousands

:14:08.:14:13.

more reservists were called up. Israel's escalated the conflict in

:14:13.:14:17.

recent days. Assassinating Hamas's military chief, in response to

:14:17.:14:21.

increasing missile attacks from Gaza. But also against the

:14:21.:14:24.

background of an up coming election in which the Prime Minister,

:14:24.:14:27.

Binyamin Nethanyahu, needs it appear strong. The calculation for

:14:27.:14:32.

Israel now, in the face of further Hamas provocation, is whether it is

:14:32.:14:39.

safe or wise to go further down the road towards all-out war.

:14:39.:14:43.

Crucially, will it avoid repeating its invasion of Gaza, nearly four

:14:43.:14:51.

years ago. That left more than 1100 Palestinians dead, according to the

:14:51.:14:54.

Israeli army, more than 1400 according to the Gaza authority.

:14:54.:14:57.

There a huge difference you have to keep in mind. The Israel defence

:14:57.:15:02.

forces have learned this from the previous round in 2009. The Israeli

:15:02.:15:08.

Defence Force, and Israel itself, are targeting military targets.

:15:08.:15:13.

There are preparations for a ground invasion, but perhaps no appetite

:15:13.:15:19.

for it. The same factor that has pushed Israel into this, the up

:15:19.:15:23.

coming elections and the Likud party's need to appear robust in

:15:23.:15:28.

the rocket attacks. That same electoral constraints would mean

:15:28.:15:34.

they wouldn't wish to commit large Israeli groups to a casualty-

:15:34.:15:40.

intensive, prolonged battle in Gaza. In Gaza, it seems, the battle is

:15:40.:15:43.

getting messy. Casualties of Israeli strike, including civilians,

:15:43.:15:48.

were brought into hospital today. The Israeli bombing over the past

:15:48.:15:54.

48 hours, again in Gaza, is turning our lives here into a nightmare.

:15:54.:15:58.

The Palestinians here in Gaza do not want to live with the memories

:15:58.:16:05.

of the last Israeli war. Though Israel's main target now is Hamas.

:16:05.:16:10.

Other militants here have also been responsible for cross-border

:16:10.:16:13.

attacks. Hamas has no interest in the firing, but it is the other

:16:13.:16:18.

Palestinian groups who are pushing Hamas towards escalation, and

:16:18.:16:23.

continuation of the cycle of violence with Israel. Hamas, which

:16:23.:16:31.

hosted the Emir recently. And received backing from Turkey

:16:31.:16:35.

diplomatically, felt increasingly confident. Hamas felt it had to

:16:35.:16:39.

respond to the killing of its main commander. It has been emboldened

:16:40.:16:44.

by new support in the region. Now it has to work out if those

:16:44.:16:48.

political friend, and the exhausted political population it rules,

:16:48.:16:52.

wants a further escalation of the conflict. Egypt, Gaza's neighbour,

:16:52.:16:57.

now ruled, like Gaza, by Islamists, will play a key role. Today it sent

:16:57.:17:00.

the Prime Minister to Gaza, in a gesture of support for Hamas, that

:17:00.:17:04.

would have been unthinkable before the Egyptian revolution. But the

:17:04.:17:09.

visit didn't stop the firing. And it's not clear how far beyond

:17:09.:17:13.

diplomatic and humanitarian help Egypt's support will go.

:17:13.:17:17.

For all its ideolgical affinity with Hamas, the new Egyptian

:17:17.:17:21.

Government also needs, partly for economic reasons, to retain the

:17:21.:17:25.

country's alliance with the west. And, to maintain the relative

:17:25.:17:30.

stability of the region. It has to work with Israel, in the Sinai

:17:30.:17:34.

Peninsula, where a collapse in security since the revolution,

:17:34.:17:38.

threatens both countries. Crucially, the Egyptian Government has lost

:17:38.:17:44.

control of the Sinai Peninsula. The Sinai, which of course abutts Gaza,

:17:44.:17:47.

is awash with arms and militant, and Israel is deeply concerned

:17:47.:17:53.

about weapons moving in from North Africa, through Sinai into Gaza.

:17:53.:17:58.

Tonight, Gaza was bracing itself for a third night of Israeli

:17:58.:18:01.

bombardment. While Israeli cities prepared for further possible

:18:01.:18:04.

rocket attacks. Both sides agree it is Egypt that is in the best

:18:04.:18:09.

position to try to mediate an end to the conflict. But for now, both

:18:09.:18:16.

seem intent on raising the stakes. George Mitchell was a US Special

:18:16.:18:19.

Envoy to the Middle East until just last year, I asked him how worried

:18:19.:18:26.

he was about a ground war? I think everyone in the region and beyond

:18:26.:18:32.

should be concerned about a continuation and an escalation of

:18:32.:18:36.

this conflict. Israel, of course, has the right to defend itself, as

:18:36.:18:41.

do all nations. And it will do so vigorously, as they demonstrated.

:18:41.:18:49.

But at the same time, this is a new and turbulent region in the wake of

:18:49.:18:54.

the Arab Spring, and you have got packically a civil war going on in

:18:55.:18:58.

Sir -- practically a civil war going on in Syria. You have a

:18:58.:19:03.

recent change in Government in Egypt, particularly difficult for

:19:03.:19:07.

the Egyptian Government with their close relationship with Hamas, and

:19:07.:19:10.

yet their obvious concern that they want to maintain the treaty with

:19:10.:19:13.

Israel, which Israel itself wants to maintain. And so, there is a

:19:14.:19:19.

real challenge for all concerned, each party is balancing political

:19:19.:19:23.

and security interests, as though a group of them were on a high wire

:19:24.:19:27.

and have to decide how far to go. I think the United States, the UK,

:19:27.:19:33.

and all of our other allies, are, and should be, actively working to

:19:33.:19:38.

persuade both parties to stand down. You have negotiated with these

:19:38.:19:44.

parties in the past. At the moment, how would you persuade them to stop

:19:44.:19:50.

fighting? Obviously it is very difficult in the heat of the moment.

:19:50.:19:54.

As we see in the Middle East and in other places, it is a lot easier to

:19:54.:19:58.

start conflicts than it is to end them. And with each passing day,

:19:58.:20:03.

and each death, and each bit of destruction, it becomes even harder,

:20:03.:20:09.

as public attitudes harden. Political leaders feel the need to

:20:09.:20:14.

continue a conflict. But I think both have to recognise that their

:20:15.:20:20.

long-term, strategic interests, may be adversely affected. If they go

:20:20.:20:24.

too far. And is it specifically more difficult now for the United

:20:24.:20:27.

States, because of the Arab Spring, because politically it might just

:20:27.:20:33.

have been easier to deal with a friendly dictator? Of course,

:20:33.:20:38.

that's true for everyone. For everyone involved, including the

:20:38.:20:43.

Israelis themselves. But, the fact is, that when we say we believe in

:20:43.:20:48.

the right of self-governance, we believe it. And we mean it. And

:20:48.:20:54.

even if it comes with the consequence of sometimes you get

:20:54.:20:58.

more difficult decisions and sometimes you get freely chosen

:20:58.:21:02.

Governments who take positions that are, at least in the immediate case,

:21:02.:21:08.

adverse to our wishes, and our interests. Given the high-wire act

:21:08.:21:13.

you see many of these countries participating in, what are your

:21:13.:21:19.

greatest and specific concerns about this conflict widening?

:21:19.:21:24.

of course, you have the added dimension of Iran. And Iran's

:21:24.:21:28.

efforts to extend its influence into the Persian Gulf region. And,

:21:28.:21:36.

of course, its publicly stated hostility to Israel. The Hamas

:21:36.:21:43.

rockets are relatively crude. They have about 8,000-10,000 of them. On

:21:43.:21:46.

the northern border, Hezbollah has many more, public estimates in

:21:46.:21:51.

Israel have ranged from 30,000- 50,000. They are some what more

:21:51.:21:59.

effective. But the most serious threat is that Iran has now made

:21:59.:22:04.

technological leap from liquid rocket fuel to solid fuel, and they

:22:04.:22:08.

can reach anywhere in Israel when launched from Iran itself. It is a

:22:08.:22:14.

complicating factor, because there has been a long historic emknitity,

:22:14.:22:18.

hostility between Persians and Arab, and there is the continuing

:22:18.:22:24.

simmering and erupting conflict between Sunni and Shia. All of

:22:24.:22:27.

these factors complicate an already complex situation, and make it very

:22:27.:22:32.

difficult to manage. I think both the gulf Arab states and Israel

:22:32.:22:38.

recognise that the principal threat to their security comes from a

:22:38.:22:42.

powerful Iran seek to rule over the region.

:22:42.:22:46.

Two years ago, here is what the Conservative election manifesto had

:22:46.:22:49.

to say about police and crime commissioners. Giving people

:22:49.:22:52.

democratic control over policing priorities is a huge step forward

:22:52.:22:56.

in the empowerment of local communities. Yesterday, people in

:22:56.:23:01.

local communities, across most of England and Wales, had the chance

:23:01.:23:04.

to feel empowered, and take democratic control over policing.

:23:04.:23:11.

How can we best illustrate the turnout? If this pen is the

:23:11.:23:15.

electorate, this men top is the proportion who wanted to feel

:23:15.:23:19.

empowered. Actually that is a little bit generous. Around 40

:23:19.:23:23.

million people had the chance to the vote. Turnout is estimated at

:23:23.:23:27.

15%. In the west Midland, Merseyside, Thames Valley and he is

:23:27.:23:35.

specks, 12% made it to the polls. - - Essex, 12% made it to the polls.

:23:35.:23:39.

In Newport, the people who voted in the 15 hours the polling station

:23:39.:23:47.

was open was serious. In Humberside, Labour's Lord Prescott lost out to

:23:47.:23:51.

a Conservative. All the results are now in. Apart from one constituency,

:23:51.:23:54.

that is Devon and Cornwall, and Conservatives have been elected to

:23:54.:24:01.

15 of the posts. Labour 13, independent 11, and the "zero

:24:01.:24:05.

tolerance" candidate in Surrey 1. Let's talk about all of this with

:24:05.:24:11.

Jessica de Grazia, former New York assistant District Attorney, and

:24:11.:24:18.

newly elected Police Commissioner for greater man chester, Tony Lloyd.

:24:18.:24:23.

Con-- Greater Manchester, Tony Lloyd. Is it embarrassing to win on

:24:23.:24:28.

a turnout of 13.93%? It is not embarrassing for me. Because I have

:24:28.:24:33.

a job to do. And I intend to do that job in the interests of the

:24:33.:24:38.

people of Greater Manchester. It would be negligent of my duty were

:24:38.:24:42.

I not to deliver on that promise. It hab embarrassing for the

:24:42.:24:46.

Government. -- it has to be embarrassing for the Government.

:24:46.:24:49.

Their level of incompetence on this is staggering, to create a new post

:24:49.:24:53.

and not explain why they have done it. To give powers that they didn't

:24:53.:24:57.

explain to the public. Presumably it is also your responsibility?

:24:57.:25:00.

tried with the Government who were determined they didn't advertise

:25:00.:25:06.

this post. A Government that wasn't allowed, that didn't let the use of

:25:06.:25:10.

the free post, that is we see on general elections in much smaller

:25:10.:25:15.

constituencies, to have a election on a very complicated balloting

:25:15.:25:20.

system, which hadn't been used before in many parts of England and

:25:20.:25:23.

Wales. It was a recipe for chaos. That is what the Government have

:25:23.:25:27.

created. Embarrassment, it should be, but it should be when David

:25:27.:25:30.

Cameron looks in the mirror in the morning. When you start to

:25:30.:25:32.

implement your measures, we will talk about that in due course,

:25:32.:25:37.

won't the people in your ar why be entitled to saying, you shouldn't

:25:37.:25:41.

be -- area be entitled to saying, you shouldn't do that, we didn't

:25:41.:25:45.

vote for him? I have been an elected politician for a third of a

:25:45.:25:49.

century. Elections give a mandate, but that mandate has to be reearned

:25:49.:25:53.

every single day, by getting out there, amongst the voters,

:25:53.:25:58.

listening to them, representing them, vocalising for them, and

:25:58.:26:01.

challenging those who don't deliver what the electorate expects. That

:26:01.:26:04.

is my job for the next three-and-a- half years. I can't sit back and

:26:04.:26:07.

say I will leave an empty chai, simply because the Government made

:26:07.:26:11.

such a -- chair, simply because the Government made such a cock-up of

:26:11.:26:14.

the process. What do you think about the democratic mandate the

:26:14.:26:19.

new commissioners have got? Well, it's not a strong mandate,

:26:19.:26:25.

obviously. It is a weak mandate. But, Tommy is right, if I was in

:26:25.:26:29.

his shoes or the shoes of any of the other newly elected police and

:26:29.:26:32.

crime commissioners, I would be saying this is my job, I have got

:26:32.:26:38.

to do the job, to the best of my ability. It's a difficult job.

:26:38.:26:42.

Prime Minister looked to New York as the template for what is

:26:42.:26:45.

happening in most of England and Wales, what do you think of how

:26:46.:26:51.

it's been played out here? actually don't think that the

:26:51.:26:56.

American system was very well understood. I think there was a

:26:56.:26:59.

superficial understanding, and this superficial understanding was

:26:59.:27:03.

transposed over here, and that's, I think, created some of the problems

:27:03.:27:07.

that police and crime commissioners are going to face. I think a major

:27:07.:27:11.

problem is that the inadequacy of the system of checks and balances.

:27:12.:27:16.

We have had a hundred years in America to mitigate some of the

:27:16.:27:20.

damage that can be done when one person is in control of such a

:27:20.:27:23.

powerful instrument of the state. There hasn't been any time over

:27:23.:27:26.

here to develop those checks and balances. What about all the

:27:26.:27:29.

politicians, these party politicians, who have been elected

:27:29.:27:35.

today, is that good for us? I think it depends upon the person. I think

:27:35.:27:41.

what's very interesting is that the electors have rejected a lot of the

:27:41.:27:47.

party politicians and they have chosen independents. They have also

:27:47.:27:53.

chosen a lot of PCCs who have a policing background. To me that's

:27:53.:27:57.

interesting, because the public recognises that the person who

:27:57.:27:59.

controls the police should understand policing. That's

:27:59.:28:04.

something that does happen in America. The elected District

:28:04.:28:08.

Attorney is a professional prosecutor who runs for office.

:28:08.:28:13.

Likewise a elected Sheriff is a professional policeman who runs for

:28:13.:28:16.

office. If people are confused about what Police Commissioners do,

:28:16.:28:21.

let me ask you a direct question. If crime fall on your watch, should

:28:21.:28:28.

you get the credit, and if it rises is it your fault? It is a bit more

:28:28.:28:34.

complicated than that. You have to give more credit to the police. We

:28:34.:28:37.

have seen crime dropping in Greater Manchester, nothing to do with me

:28:37.:28:42.

being in post. The things that help crime reduce, and the things that

:28:42.:28:45.

help crime, building strong communities, and that requires a

:28:45.:28:49.

strong police force, it requires strong partnerships. It is building

:28:49.:28:52.

those partnerships that I think is a job, yes, for the police, but

:28:52.:28:57.

transcends the police themselves, and involves many other groups, the

:28:57.:29:00.

local authorities, the communities, people in residents groups, all of

:29:00.:29:05.

those who build the kind of community base that can challenge

:29:05.:29:09.

the criminal s and crime. Are you confident you can get your

:29:09.:29:11.

electorate more interested by next time, briefly? That has to be a

:29:12.:29:17.

very real test for moo. As I said earlier on, -- for me, as I said

:29:17.:29:20.

earlier on, the way the politician operates the mandate isn't simply

:29:20.:29:23.

because of the election and says goodbye for the next three-and-a-

:29:23.:29:27.

half years be it is by validating that mandate every day by getting

:29:27.:29:31.

out there and listening to the community and vocalising what they

:29:31.:29:36.

need to have for their own parts of the conubation. Thank you very much

:29:36.:29:40.

very much. Review is next, Kirsty, what have

:29:40.:29:46.

you got? In tonight's show, life, death and religion, in Paul Thomas

:29:46.:29:54.

Anderson's film, The Master. The welcome collection, Death Makes a

:29:54.:30:00.

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