19/11/2012 Newsnight


19/11/2012

Mark Urban assesses the chances of an imminent ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. And reaction to the Church of England's possible endorsement of female bishops. With Kirsty Wark.


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Who can stop Gaza and Israel descending into a ground war. The

:00:14.:00:19.

world can call for a ceasefire again and again, who holds the

:00:19.:00:22.

cards? As we go on air, peace negotiations are happening, not

:00:22.:00:26.

much goodwill on either side. Israel and Hamas both want it to

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stop, and it is Egypt that holds a key role in mediating.

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I will be asking the quartet spokesman, Tony Blair, is there

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going to be a ceasefire? The Church of England is likely to

:00:43.:00:47.

endorse female bishops, but parishioners can refuse their

:00:47.:00:50.

minutes traigss. What do you think about the idea of

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women bishops? I don't like it one little bit. I don't think you can

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alter the word of God, that is what they are doing, in my humble

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opinion. Equal in the eyes of God, a female bishop discusses with an

:01:03.:01:13.
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Anglican who disapproves of her. # Nobody does it better

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Britain may not run an empire any more, but apparently when it comes

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to soft power, nobody does it better. Do the Olympics, James Bond

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and the Queen, really make us the most influential country in the

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world? Also tonight?

:01:30.:01:38.

Is it you causing the panic attack. Witchcraft in Waltham stow, the

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exorcists in Britain treating demonic possession. They can play

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:01:54.:01:57.

with us, deceive us and even doctors.

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Good evening, more than 100 dead in Gaza, three in Israel, as Israel

:02:02.:02:05.

pounds the strip in retaliation for rocket attacks. President Obama

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called the Israeli Prime Minister and the Egyptian President to

:02:09.:02:13.

discuss deescalating the violence, witnessed so far in the six-day

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offence. Benjimin Netanyahu, who has put four conditions on the

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table for a ceasefire, including the promise of international effort

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to stop Hamas rearming. How does that square with Egypt's proposal

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for a ceasefire. Mark Urban, is there any sign of a ceasefire

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tonight? We know there has been discussion with Egypt, and the

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parties involved. It has been talked up with the Egyptian and

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Palestinian sources, with the Israelis tending to talk it down.

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Tonight the inner cabinet in Israel, including all the key decision

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makers, went into session a couple of hours ago, and is still in

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session as we week now. They are considering terms coming out of

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Cairo, and also whether to continue postponing the ground operation

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they have planned. We know from the similar limited conflicts against

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Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006, and Gaza in 2009, that once

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the parties start these things, they find it quite hard to stop

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them, without some sort of minimum terms. In both those previous cases,

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without ground fight. In this case, the minimum terms are to do with

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stopping the arms supplies from Israel, and from Hamas perspective,

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ending the Israeli blockade, which means getting more access into the

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Israeli economy. We don't know whether the two sides are prepared

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to make the necessary conditions in order to achieve that at the moment.

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While that uncertainty carries on, the bombing goes on too.

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Today's strikes in Gaza saw more targeting of individuals, as well

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as rocket sites, leading to scores of casualties. In this attack,

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Israel killed an Islamic Jihad militia commander, in the same

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building that was being used by several news organisations.

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This is escalation, no doubt. But both sides now seem to be searching

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for a way out. In order for a ceasefire to be stable, I believe

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it requires a mediated deal, an Egyptian-brokered deal. With a tri-

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lateral understanding between Israel, Egypt and Hamas, in which

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all parties' concerns are addressed. For example, Israel is highly

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concerned about the smuggling of weapons, from Sinai, into Gaza. In

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order to deal with that, you need an Egyptian commitment to do a

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serious job along the border. Up to this morning, 860 rockets had

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been fired at Israel. They say their missile defences knocked down

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320, and that there has been a fall in the number fired from around 300,

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during the first two days, to about 180 in the past two days. The cost

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for the people in Gaza has increased, the death toll there is

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now over 100, with three people killed in Israel. Hamas insist,

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though, it is not fighting a war of diminishing returns.

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TRANSLATION: We are the people of a just cause, we are not the

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agressors against anyone. This is Palestine, whoever attacks

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Palestine will be buried. Today Cairo became The Crucible for peace

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mediation efforts, with the UN Secretary-General flying in, as

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well as Israeli and Hamas delegations being in town. Egypt

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has mediated past disputes, but now it has a democratic, Islamist

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Government, that is much more supportive of Hamas. The position

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of Egypt is not going to be repeated as Mubarak used to act. We

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can see that clearly by withdrawing the ambassador from Israel. Ask the

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ambassador, the Israeli ambassador to leave. That itself is

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significant. Mr Morsi has clearly said, we are not going to leave

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Gaza by itself. Facing this aggression.

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Both sides now want a ceasefire, but equally, they both know that a

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simple cessation of violence could look too much like a sticking

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plaster solution, that will come apart when the next flare up

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happens. So while terms that might be acceptable to the Israelis and

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Hamas are searched for by mediator, there is the prospect of an Israeli

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ground operation. That hangs over everybody like a Sword of Damocles.

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It may follow the lines of 2009's ground push, severing Gaza's main

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communications route, and halting normal life in much of the strip,

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as well as producing hundreds of civilian deaths. Its purpose then

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was essentially to raise the pain level for Hamas. Israeli generals

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may now be contemplating something bigger. They have called up 80,000

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reservists, enough for three Armoured Divisions, they could be

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used to cut the border with Egypt, along the called Philadelphia Road

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line, as well as sever all communications in the strip. That

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could produce higher civilian casualties, as well as

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international outrage. Egypt is better positioned to influence

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Hamas, because of the close relationship, and that affords

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Egypt a unique position to broker a ceasefire, which they are trying to

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do. I hope they will be successful. Tonight, there are reports that

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agreement may be close. But also that the two sides are still

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trading rockets for air strikes. One thing is clear, when a halt

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does come, each side will try to convince its people that the past

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week's suffering has been worth it. A little earlier, I spoke to the

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former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who is now the representative of

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the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and

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Russia, the called Quartet, on Middle East peace.

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Tony Blair, first of all, who do you think has got the best chance

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of brokering this ceasefire? Egypt. There is no real doubt, I think,

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that the Egyptians are in the best position to try to broker the

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ceasefire. I know they have been making very strong efforts to do it.

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It is in their interests to do it. It is actually obviously in the

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interests of the people in Gaza, because they are suffering, and you

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know there has been a lot of civilian casualties there in the

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past 24 hours. In it is in the interests of the people in Israel,

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there is a million people in the south of Israel who are taking

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shelter every night, in shelter, the schools are shut, and normal

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life is impeded. So it is, frankly, in everyone's interests to get this

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done. But, there are concerns that some of the longer-range weapons,

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from Gaza, are actually being filtered through from Egypt? Well,

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there are concerns, and one of the crucial issues is going to be, that

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even if you get a ceasefire, what will then definitely come on the

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agenda in order to deal with this, is the question of more weapons and

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the longer-range weapons coming into Gaza. If Israel feels under

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attack, then it will defend itself. Likewise, I hope that it is

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possible, if we could calm the situation, to get to the point

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where people in Gaza are allowed to live more normal lives. There are

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two very, very clear objectives, for people in Gaza and people in

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Israel, that should be secured. The one thing that is for certain is

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that the longer these hostilities go on, the more innocent people

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suffer. It is important to try to bring it to an end if we possibly

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can. If there are weapons coming through from Egypt, is there no

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pressure. Look, Egypt is getting so much aid from the US, and so much

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from Europe, otherwise the country would really be in the doldrums s

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there no pressure we can put on to make sure that this weaponry does

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not come through from Egypt? Well, there is a lot of pressure going on.

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But there are many different routes, I'm afraid, of weapons into Gaza.

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And, to be fair to the Egyptian authorities, it is not always

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possible for them to act in the way that, in theory, you would think is

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possible. However, having said that, look, I think one thing is for sure,

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that if what happens is that you have a ceasefire, but then there is

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a restocking of armments coming into Gaza, - armourments coming

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into Gaza, particularly the long- rage missiles and the Fage-5

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missiles with a range of 75kms. They are essentially from an

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Iranian origin, if they start coming in, Israel will feel under

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threat and it will act. Do you agree, the harassment of Israel by

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weaponry from Gaza is as nothing as to the disproportionate response

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from Israel, would you suggest it is disproportionate, look there is

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over 100 dead? It is terrible that you have these civilian casualties

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in Gaza, but the problem is this, once you start the hostilities, and

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there are rockets being fired at Israeli towns and villages, and

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Israel's got the capability through this Iron Dome to knock out about

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eight out of ten of them, and of course the weaponry is far less

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sophisticated, then you have Gaza, the Gaza strip is 20-25 miles long,

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it is a few miles wide, you have 1.75 million people living there.

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The rockets are fired out of densely civilian areas. The only

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way, the only way of protecting the civilian population in Gaza is to

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get the ceasefire. The only way you are going to do this is to stop it

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and then deal with the long-term issues. And your role, as a

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spokesman for the Quartet, the Quartet theself is not in favour of

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talking toam mass, but you, I understand -- to Hamas, but you, I

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understand, take a different line, that actually it would be good to

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talk to Hamas? I'm bound by the Quartet principles, and they are

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very clear, that we don't engage with Hamas, that Hamas can't come

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into the peace process unless they give up violence and accept the

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right of Israel to exist. My point is very simple, that it would be

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sensible if you were able to have all the parties at the table, but

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you can't really have that situation unless there is an

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acceptance that it is only through political means and negotiation and

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peaceful negotiation that you pursue your political objectives.

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By the way, when, in the Northern Ireland situation, we began the

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peace process, we did it only after the acceptance of Sinn Fein that

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purely peaceful means would be used. That's actually the real sticking

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point here. Look, that's for a later time. But right now what is

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important, is, as I say, to deescalate the situation, bring

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some calm and work on stablise it, not just for the short-term, but

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the long-term. Both the EU and the US have called

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for ceasefire, what chance would you give a ceasefire in the next 24

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hours? It is possible. The interests of Egypt, Israel and

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people in Gaza are aligned, in this sense, that everyone wants to see a

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cessation of hostilities. On the other hand, the only basis upon

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which that will come, is that the cessation is genuine, and that

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these longer-term questions go on the table and can be dealt with. I

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don't know, quite honestly. I know there are very intensive efforts

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that are continuing as we speak, I hope something fruitful will come

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out of it. Thank you very much for joining us.

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Of course, a small correction, the fourth member of the Quartet is not

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the UK, it is the UN. If you were a betting person, your

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money might be on a "yes" vote at the General Synod of the Church of

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England, when the congregation decides whether or not to accept

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female bishops. The yes is the outgoing Bishop of Canterbury, but

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to pass the historic support must receive two thirds of bishops,

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Clergy and lay members to become law. The battle is intense, even if

:14:55.:15:05.
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it allows women bishops, they still won't be quite equal to the men.

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Holy communion is celebrated at St James's church in Lower Gornal. The

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incense and rites are High Church and deeply traditional. While women

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make up most of the congregation, ministering to them is seen as

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man's work. As for the job of donning a

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bishop's mither, women need not apply. Mitre, women need not apply.

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You can't change something the Church of England believes to be,

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it is part of the holy apost tollic Catholic Church. You would need a

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council to make it legitimate. there anything about the work of a

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bishop that a woman couldn't do? think a woman can actually do the

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functions, but it is the validity of the office, isn't it.

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A so it is, that those who object to women bishops argue it is not a

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matter of worldly discrimination, but biblical teaching. Christ, a

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man, called 12 other men to be his apostles, so we may all be equal

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before God, but not when it comes to leadership within the Church of

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England. Afterwards over coffee, the

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congregation was stirred up by the thought of the synod vote. I was

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born a traditionalists, no doubt I will die aed traditionalists.

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think they can do all the pastoral care very well, you know, but it is

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the sacraments that I like to hang on to, as far as a male is

:16:42.:16:46.

concerned. There is a place in the church for

:16:46.:16:50.

women, I would admit, it is not the priest or the bishop, in my humble

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opinion. The 12 disciples were chosen, they were men. So, there.

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You are one of the youngest people in the congregation, what do you

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think of the idea of women bishops? I don't agree with it. This is my

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family church, these are my family beliefs, I will stick with my

:17:11.:17:16.

family traditions. This place is found in the sprawl of Birmingham,

:17:16.:17:26.
:17:26.:17:33.

but falls in the Worcester diocese. One thing that has surprised me,

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the you get into the English countryside, and it doesn't get

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more English than here, the more open people are to the idea of

:17:40.:17:46.

women bishops. It is in the towns and cities where most of the

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opposition lies. That's where the traditional anglo-

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Catholic Churchs are concentrated. In rural areas like this, the

:17:58.:18:06.

smaller number of parishs tends to make for more mixed congregations.

:18:06.:18:12.

At holy Trinity, a special service is presided over by the Bishop of

:18:12.:18:17.

Worcester, women make up a third of the church's Clergy, tomorrow he

:18:17.:18:20.

will vote for them to become bishops too. The Church of England

:18:20.:18:26.

has been hugely enriched by the women as priests, for over 20 years

:18:26.:18:30.

now. I hope and pray with all my heart that the legislation

:18:30.:18:34.

presently before synod on Tuesday will be passed. Because it will

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enable us to be enriched by the Ministry of Women, not just as

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priests, but as bishops. I think that will be of enormous benefit to

:18:42.:18:48.

the church. The move is widely backed, although

:18:48.:18:54.

the make-up of the General Synod means the vote will be close.

:18:54.:18:58.

Rachel hopes one day herself to be ordained, and believes what's

:18:58.:19:02.

written in the Bible is no bar. can go all the way through the

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Bible and you can find things that will back up reasons why and

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reasons why not. I think for me you just have to, if you look at some

:19:13.:19:16.

women it is so clear that is the thing they are meant to be. Who are

:19:16.:19:20.

we to say no. For the Reverend Lizzie Ship,

:19:20.:19:24.

admitting women bishops is a matter of moving with the times, and

:19:24.:19:29.

catching up with Anglican Churches in new zee is land, Australia --

:19:29.:19:31.

New Zealand, Australia and the United States. We have been

:19:31.:19:35.

thinking about this, we have been arguing, spliting hairs over it for

:19:35.:19:38.

the last 20 years, the time is right for the church, the time is

:19:39.:19:44.

right for the nation. I think it is a manifest bidding of the Holy

:19:44.:19:49.

Spirit that women should now be ordained as bishops.

:19:49.:19:54.

In Oxford, this is home of the Bishop of Ebbsfleet, one of the

:19:54.:19:59.

called "flying bishops", his job is to however over a vast area of

:19:59.:20:04.

England, from Cornwall to Derby, he then swoops in to support those

:20:04.:20:08.

parishs, like the one we saw at Lower Gornal where they don't

:20:08.:20:12.

accept the authority of a bishop who has ordained women into the

:20:12.:20:18.

priesthood. We see ourselves as part of the team of bishops, part

:20:18.:20:23.

of the episs cop pal ministry of the Church of England, where pirbs

:20:23.:20:27.

like any other bishops, but we do ensure that Clergy, parishs and

:20:28.:20:36.

people of this particular tradition feel cared for, and I think we have

:20:36.:20:39.

succeeded in hold ago lot of people in the Church of England who might

:20:39.:20:49.

otherwise have found it difficult to remain. This accommodation may

:20:49.:20:52.

well have stemmed the flow of Anglicans to the Catholic Church,

:20:52.:20:57.

it will allow them to bypass women bishops too, but it is an unhappy

:20:57.:21:01.

compromise. In order to keep those who are opposed to the legislation

:21:01.:21:05.

you have to curtail women from functioning wholly as bishops.

:21:05.:21:12.

There are some areas where they can't go. Those of us who feel the

:21:12.:21:17.

Christian faith is clear that in Christ there should be neither male

:21:17.:21:22.

for female, there is a part of us think that is not quite right. But

:21:22.:21:26.

we want to value those and keep within the fold those who have

:21:26.:21:30.

difficulties. Parishs around the country will be

:21:30.:21:34.

watching, the next Archbishop of Canterbury hopes the faithful will

:21:34.:21:39.

disagree in love. Another difficult compromise.

:21:39.:21:46.

Having spent the day at at Westminster ahead of the vote, Emma

:21:46.:21:49.

Forward is here, she was the youngest member of the Church of

:21:49.:21:54.

England's governing body for seven years, and has been re-elected

:21:54.:21:57.

recently From New Zealand we are joined by the Right Reverend

:21:57.:22:00.

Victoria Matthews, the first woman to be ordained in the Anglican

:22:00.:22:06.

Communion. Good evening to you both. The first episle to Timothy says "I

:22:06.:22:14.

allow no women to teach or have authority over men, she is to keep

:22:14.:22:17.

silent", Bishop Matthews do you believe that? I think that is part

:22:17.:22:23.

of a scripttural witness. I have huge -- scriptureal witness, I have

:22:23.:22:28.

huge respect for that. Part of that is also that Jesus, the Son of God

:22:28.:22:38.
:22:38.:22:41.

was born of women, and so you could argue that the first person to

:22:41.:22:45.

celebrate within herself the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ

:22:45.:22:51.

was a woman, the Virgin Mary. I also recognise the very first

:22:51.:22:59.

witness to the resurrection was Mary Magdelene. Scripture should be

:22:59.:23:04.

looked at as a whole, and balanceed with one witness by another. I'm

:23:04.:23:14.

quoting the goes bells, that is a higher authority. -- Gospels, that

:23:14.:23:20.

is a higher authority. My point about what was said about

:23:20.:23:27.

the Virgin Mary, the way God called her was uniquely as a women,

:23:27.:23:31.

something only a woman could do. We should look at scripture as a

:23:31.:23:36.

whole, in his callings of every prophet and person we look at in

:23:36.:23:42.

scriptture, he calls every person as their gender as a man or woman.

:23:42.:23:45.

If the vote goes against you tomorrow, and the women bishops

:23:45.:23:47.

will come into existence in the Church of England very quickly.

:23:47.:23:51.

Does that mean for you that women are equal to men in the eyes of

:23:51.:23:56.

God? The vote tomorrow is very interesting, because I would

:23:56.:24:00.

actually say it is not entirely that if the vote going against me,

:24:00.:24:04.

I feel the vote would go against the church, and future of the

:24:04.:24:08.

church. The legislation that we have in front of us is potentially

:24:08.:24:13.

very problematic, it is not lasting. Let as be clear, if it does go

:24:13.:24:16.

against you, let's take your position in principle and in

:24:16.:24:23.

religion, you would refuse to take communion from Bishop Matthews,

:24:23.:24:32.

wouldn't you? Yes. And you would refuse it take communion from

:24:32.:24:35.

anyone that Bishop Matthews ordained a priest, even if it was a

:24:35.:24:41.

man? I would require the ministration of a male bishop and I

:24:41.:24:45.

and many other people, many or women, many other young men and

:24:45.:24:49.

women would have that same view. Bishop Matthews, what does that

:24:49.:24:57.

make you think when you hear what Emma is saying? I'm a huge

:24:57.:25:01.

respecter of conscience. I'm hearing Emma speak of her

:25:01.:25:07.

conscience, and I respect that. I think that there will be a period

:25:07.:25:13.

of time, as has happened in other provinces of the Anglican Communion,

:25:13.:25:19.

where women in the Episocbate begins to be accepted and lived

:25:19.:25:25.

through. But I'm in my 19th year as a bishop.

:25:25.:25:30.

I have to say, I think I have enabled ministry, and mission, I

:25:30.:25:35.

believe I have proclaimed the gospel, I don't think I have been a

:25:35.:25:42.

barrier. So I actually see and it's not, of course, my vote at all. I'm

:25:42.:25:47.

in another province. I see what is happening in the Church of England

:25:47.:25:54.

as a matter of building a bridge and crossing it. I want to ask you

:25:54.:25:59.

what you feel about the idea of "flying bishops", you don't have

:25:59.:26:03.

these in New Zealand, this will only be in England. There will be

:26:03.:26:07.

"flying bishops" who will move in, when people in your position are

:26:07.:26:12.

about to give communion "flying bishops" can come, as it were, and

:26:12.:26:18.

knock you over. What do you feel about that? Well, first of all, one

:26:18.:26:22.

must remember that "flying bishops" are not new in England, they have

:26:22.:26:25.

been there for quite some time. for this purpose? Since the

:26:25.:26:32.

ordination of women as priests. for the stopping bishops? No, no.

:26:32.:26:37.

Secondly, I take exception to the "knock me over"! What I have done

:26:37.:26:43.

in the past, is to respect conscience. So I have, on occasion

:26:43.:26:49.

said, would you care to come and share with me, in the service, so

:26:49.:26:55.

that we are able to more fully minister to the needs of people of

:26:55.:27:01.

a certain persuasion. It is not an arm wrestling, it is not a matter

:27:01.:27:05.

of winners and losers, it is a matter of the body of Christ,

:27:05.:27:09.

serving the body of Christ. I would completely agree with that.

:27:09.:27:14.

You would agree with that, but the problem might be, Emma, is for

:27:14.:27:19.

example, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, is

:27:19.:27:23.

leading the charge for the yes vote. You would be in the position where

:27:23.:27:26.

you would not take communion from your own Archbishop, is that

:27:27.:27:30.

compatible with your life in the church? It wouldn't be the case

:27:30.:27:35.

that I wouldn't take communion from my own Archbishop. But it would be

:27:35.:27:38.

somebody who would happily ordain a woman as a bishop? It doesn't work

:27:38.:27:45.

in that way. I would agree with all of what Bishop Victoria said there

:27:45.:27:48.

there are real positive ways we can work together. It is not the case

:27:48.:27:51.

that we are looking to knock each other over, that we are looking to

:27:52.:27:55.

push each other out of certain areas, we are looking for really

:27:55.:27:58.

constructive ways to work forward. This legislation that we have in

:27:58.:28:06.

front of us, tomorrow, doesn't offer that. That is why a no vote

:28:06.:28:09.

is essential. Have you taken a bet on whether you

:28:09.:28:15.

will get it? You don't bet, sorry. It is impossible to call. And it

:28:15.:28:18.

doesn't work like that. What makes a country great, or gives it

:28:18.:28:25.

potential clout around the world. Once it was military pow res,

:28:25.:28:29.

mineral riches and industrial might, now something else is in play and

:28:29.:28:33.

we do it well, which must be a godsend considering our economic

:28:33.:28:38.

performance. According to a Monocle survey, Britain beats the world in

:28:38.:28:41.

"soft power", invaluable when it comes to the exercise of global

:28:41.:28:51.

power and influence. Danny Boyle's Opening Ceremony at

:28:51.:28:55.

the Olympic was a demonstration of all things great and glorious about

:28:55.:29:01.

our nation. The performance, watched by nine million people,

:29:01.:29:06.

contributed to the UK's global influence via soft power. The term

:29:06.:29:11.

was coined more than 20 years ago by an American economist, and

:29:11.:29:15.

relates to the power of persuasion, compared to hard power, which is a

:29:15.:29:20.

nation's economic or military might. The annual global soft power survey

:29:20.:29:26.

by the magazine, Monocle, has ranked nations looking at 50

:29:26.:29:29.

factors based on quality of Government, diplomatic

:29:29.:29:33.

infrastructure, qulure and business appeal. And -- culture, and

:29:33.:29:38.

business appeal. Thanks to the likes of Bradley wig again, 007 and

:29:38.:29:42.

Adele, the UK ranks number one, ahead of the US, Germany, France

:29:42.:29:48.

and Swede. But is soft power an important symbol of our global

:29:48.:29:52.

influence, or is it a consolation prize for a country that no longer

:29:52.:29:58.

has any real clout. And just because we can boast such

:29:58.:30:02.

influence, do we know how to use it to the best of our advantage.

:30:02.:30:07.

The UK won't host another Olympics for a lifetime, and soft power

:30:07.:30:12.

still requires a strong economy. Already snapping at our heels in

:30:12.:30:16.

the soft power ranks are countries like South Korea, Brazil and China.

:30:16.:30:26.

Nations which are not short of a bit of hard power as well.

:30:26.:30:32.

Does Britannia rule the airwaves and not the actually waves. Joining

:30:32.:30:36.

me is Chrystia Freeland, author of Plutocrats.

:30:36.:30:41.

What is the basis of any traditional claim we have to soft

:30:41.:30:44.

power? You started off in talking about this in saying military power

:30:44.:30:48.

is not the game today, it is all about soft power, but actually, I

:30:48.:30:52.

think you could argue that a lot of the soft power that Britain has

:30:52.:30:56.

today you can trace it back directly to Britain's historic

:30:56.:31:01.

military power. Britain has lost its empie, but it left the English

:31:01.:31:07.

lan -- empire, but it left the English language, that is

:31:07.:31:09.

continuously important in the Anglo-Saxon countries. You talked

:31:09.:31:13.

about Germany, France, Swede not being so high up, it is much harder

:31:13.:31:17.

to project speaking in Swedish. Which suggests as the axis of power

:31:17.:31:22.

shifts in the world, that soft power will dissipate, no longer

:31:22.:31:26.

necessarily will English be the dominant language in 50 years, who

:31:27.:31:29.

knows? This will be an and tremenduously interesting balance

:31:29.:31:34.

in shift in the world. English seems pretty thoroughly established

:31:34.:31:43.

as the lingafranka, of the world, there will be more Chinese speaks

:31:43.:31:47.

English than native English speakers in the future. Will they

:31:47.:31:52.

still want London, New York, Los Angeles, to be setting the cultural

:31:52.:31:57.

tone? I don't know. Is soft power, essentially a posh way of saying

:31:57.:32:04.

PR? No, I think it is a lot more than that. I think it is about

:32:04.:32:09.

cultural values, and those cultural values do become political values.

:32:09.:32:10.

It is really interesting that Hillary Clinton, throughout her

:32:11.:32:14.

time as Secretary of State, she started off emphasising something

:32:14.:32:20.

she called "smart power", which was a latest twist on soft power, now

:32:20.:32:24.

she's talking about "economic statecraft", with economic policy

:32:24.:32:28.

being central to foreign policy. The other thing I think is so

:32:28.:32:33.

interesting about this, is how far does it go beyond music, beyond

:32:33.:32:38.

culture? Is it also about politics? When the Chinese go to Africa,

:32:38.:32:41.

something that can be quite appealing for an African dictator

:32:41.:32:45.

is the Chinese say, you can have economic growth, and still be an

:32:45.:32:48.

authoritarian regime. It seems to me, before China wasn't really

:32:48.:32:51.

interested in soft power, they didn't feel they needed it before?

:32:51.:32:55.

The Chinese actually, I think, are really a country to watch when it

:32:55.:33:00.

comes to soft power. They have been quite careful to frame their

:33:00.:33:04.

emergence in world geopolitics as the peaceful rise. They talk about

:33:04.:33:08.

a lot about how they are not interested in projecting military

:33:08.:33:11.

force, much beyond our borders, we just want to grow strong

:33:11.:33:14.

economically. Now as you see that economic expansion in other parts

:33:14.:33:18.

of the world, there is a political message wrapped in there.

:33:18.:33:21.

quickly do people forget the fact that the Queen, sort of, jumped out

:33:21.:33:26.

of the helicopter, and Adele sings, and we had a wonderful Olympics

:33:26.:33:30.

Opening Ceremony, and we had Bradley wig agains, that stuff

:33:30.:33:35.

doesn't -- Wiggins, that stuff doesn't last very long does it?

:33:35.:33:39.

may not. The big question to ask if you are a British person s how does

:33:39.:33:43.

that translate into improving my -- is how does that translate into

:33:43.:33:49.

improving my leave. Swede doesn't have a great soft power, they have

:33:49.:33:53.

a grate Twitter feed if you are interested in soft power. But does

:33:53.:33:56.

Britain's soft power make your life better as a Brit. If this

:33:56.:33:59.

Government wants to continue the idea that Britain holds soft power,

:33:59.:34:04.

what would it be investing in? would be invest anything you Kirsty,

:34:04.:34:08.

in the BBC, it would be investing in British cultural institutions.

:34:08.:34:18.
:34:18.:34:19.

Thank you very much indeed. Words for evil spirit s, Jin Jardoo,

:34:20.:34:24.

possession, some not so familiar, all things that psychiatrists and

:34:24.:34:29.

the criminal justice system are having to countenance. Research by

:34:30.:34:35.

the University of Warwick are looking at a growing number of

:34:35.:34:41.

people blaming mental illness on possession.

:34:42.:34:46.

We spent ten months exposing why exorcists are teaching serious

:34:46.:34:51.

illness and murd certificate explained away by the presence of -

:34:51.:34:59.

- murder is explained away by the presence of evil spirits. Muddess

:34:59.:35:04.

Khan works for a lettings Europe in Walthamstow in East London. He's in

:35:04.:35:09.

charge of maintaining hundreds of properties. He works flexible hours

:35:09.:35:12.

because he suffers from panic attacks, he has been signed off

:35:12.:35:16.

work in the past and is on anti- depressants. I'm fine when I'm

:35:16.:35:22.

working, if the day before, the night before, I do feel that it is

:35:22.:35:27.

getting a little bit heavy, I wouldn't normally come in.

:35:27.:35:30.

claims medication hasn't worked for him. Instead he says he's possessed

:35:30.:35:40.
:35:40.:35:42.

by a Jin, a supernatural being. are burning. Who is burning you.

:35:42.:35:47.

Ahhhhhhhh. You're burning. I'm not burning you, who is burning you?

:35:47.:35:54.

Who is burning you? Who is burning you? I'm reading. What I am reading.

:35:54.:36:04.
:36:04.:36:05.

What I am reading. Yes. You don't believe what I'm reading? Yeeesss.

:36:05.:36:09.

Streeting him is Abu Mohammed, an exorcists who operates from the

:36:09.:36:13.

back room of his home. He's summoning the Jin from inside the

:36:13.:36:20.

man, he speaks to it directly you who is causing him panic attack.

:36:20.:36:25.

Yeah. Is it him to sends him to hospital. What did you do? He's

:36:25.:36:29.

well known, he has a waiting list months long, and charges �60 a

:36:29.:36:33.

session for his services. He claims to remove evil spirits from people,

:36:33.:36:41.

who believe therapysed, by reading passages -- they are possessed, by

:36:41.:36:48.

reading passages from the Koran. The exorcist knows what he does is

:36:48.:36:51.

some what controversial. While we are filming he is constantly

:36:51.:36:55.

filming us, concerned we are going to distort what he is doing here.

:36:55.:37:01.

My body feels battered, that is what it feels like.

:37:01.:37:06.

Even now I feel a bit drowsy, it is slowly wearing off. All that

:37:06.:37:09.

reading. You think you will feel better now

:37:09.:37:15.

for having come here? Perhaps for the rest of the week? It will give

:37:15.:37:20.

me a boost. It will yes, it is like a dose of medicine, innit.

:37:20.:37:26.

There is a magic in this body. These views are not uncommon, among

:37:26.:37:31.

British Asians in the UK, the belief in evil spirits is

:37:31.:37:35.

widespread, that can be concepts like Black Magic, at the more

:37:35.:37:40.

extreme it is the body is possessed, causing physical harm. The concept

:37:40.:37:44.

of Jin is in the Koran, for British Muslim, in particular, there is a

:37:44.:37:50.

theological grounding for their belief. What Jin actually are is

:37:50.:37:53.

not universally agreed upon. Serving these communies are

:37:54.:37:57.

hundreds of spiritual healers across the UK, some charging

:37:57.:38:00.

thousands. In the course of making this film, I have heard evil

:38:00.:38:07.

spirits and Jin blamed for epilepsy, for bipolar disorder, criminal

:38:07.:38:11.

activity, even not getting a job. These called healers can be

:38:11.:38:15.

harmless, even helpful to some, what is concerning academics is

:38:15.:38:22.

when they replace medical care for serious problems. Jins they are

:38:22.:38:26.

very unpredictable. When 20-year- old Nadine, whose name we have

:38:26.:38:31.

changed, became ill, he and his family thought he had a spiritual

:38:31.:38:36.

family, that he was possessed by a Jin. Came downstairs, my dad was

:38:36.:38:40.

there, I said I feel weird, I said the walls look weird, and I can't

:38:41.:38:45.

take it. A haerl was brought in to try to remove the Jin he felt was

:38:45.:38:50.

inside him. When he didn't recover, his family took him to hospital.

:38:50.:38:54.

The psychiatrist came and said what was the matter. He wasn't aware of

:38:54.:39:01.

the Jins, he was shell shocked himself. He's now diagnosed with

:39:01.:39:04.

schizophrenia and takes daily medication.

:39:04.:39:10.

Do you, in any way regret getting medical help sooner? No, I'm glad

:39:10.:39:15.

we went through the spiritual help first.

:39:15.:39:19.

It is cases like this that cause concern for mental health

:39:19.:39:26.

professionals, that, like many, his illness was instantly attributed to

:39:26.:39:29.

possession. This professor has just completed a five-year study about

:39:29.:39:33.

this, funded by the Department of Health. Here he presents his

:39:33.:39:37.

results to a Sikh mental health conference in Birmingham.

:39:37.:39:41.

extreme case I can think of in the last few years, is a Sikh gentleman

:39:41.:39:46.

who became ill when he was 18. But the family sought help within the

:39:46.:39:51.

community faith group. He didn't come to psychiatric intervention

:39:51.:39:55.

for 13 years, we saw him when he was 3 1. By that time a lot of

:39:56.:40:01.

damage is done. Any group of clinicians, working in an inner

:40:01.:40:06.

city area, they will have all seen this, it is an every day experience.

:40:06.:40:12.

It is not necessarily a problem of social class or education. So a lot

:40:12.:40:19.

of people? A lot of people. Don't do this to her. Tell me what is you

:40:19.:40:25.

are plan, what have you been doing? The professor says it is key its

:40:25.:40:27.

patients admit to their religious ceremonies or healing, it can be

:40:28.:40:31.

helpful, as long as it is not an alternative to medical care. What

:40:31.:40:35.

has been found is that for some British Asians it is simply more

:40:35.:40:40.

acceptable to be possessed than mentally ill.

:40:40.:40:50.

To obey him only. To obey him only. I think it is a combination of how

:40:50.:40:55.

cultures make sense for people. How stigma just prevents them from

:40:55.:41:01.

recognises what it really is. Quite often, people see abnormal

:41:01.:41:06.

behaviour as some how being caused by some bad influence, rather than

:41:06.:41:16.
:41:16.:41:17.

a sign of mental illness. That badness, becomes an external

:41:17.:41:23.

manevolenceA Black Magic by someone, a shadow, a Jin. It is this kind of

:41:23.:41:26.

thinking that means courts are also having to grapple with the son

:41:26.:41:33.

September of possession. -- concept of possession. This is

:41:33.:41:37.

Nyla Muntess on her wedding day, watching her are her brother, just

:41:37.:41:43.

over a month ago, the man she's marrying, along with his parents,

:41:43.:41:48.

and his brother-in-law, were jailed for life for her murder.

:41:48.:41:52.

The trial heard evidence that Nyla was killed as family members

:41:52.:41:58.

attempted to drive out an evil spirit. Again, they said, she was

:41:58.:42:08.

possessed by a Jin. TRANSLATION: The thinking behind

:42:08.:42:13.

her in-laws was that they would basically have the body released,

:42:13.:42:19.

get the body released, take it home to Pakistan, it would be very easy

:42:19.:42:29.

to explain away anything by basically having that capture-all,

:42:29.:42:34.

Jin did it. The called healer in the room it is thought when she was

:42:34.:42:39.

murdered, was never traced. They provide a tough task for

:42:39.:42:45.

prosecutors, under the radar. A few weeks ago, in another case in East

:42:45.:42:49.

London, a religious healer, who beat a woman with a stick, has

:42:49.:42:53.

never been found. There have been two high-profile court cases in

:42:53.:42:56.

Birmingham and London. Both cases, the called healer not traced,

:42:56.:43:02.

nowhere to be seen. Is that a failure? It is a back -- lack of

:43:02.:43:06.

understanding of how these people operate. They operate in the

:43:06.:43:08.

shadows. They are protected by others in their communities, faith

:43:09.:43:14.

or places of worship. They may leave the country. So it is very

:43:14.:43:19.

difficult to track down the "healer". Would you say this is an

:43:19.:43:22.

increasing problem, a problem you are seeing more often? We are

:43:22.:43:25.

becoming more aware of it. Whether it is increasing or not. I'm

:43:25.:43:29.

pleased we have been talking to lots of community groups over the

:43:29.:43:33.

last three or four years, who want to tackle it themselves. You make

:43:33.:43:38.

him sick, all the way from Pakistan you came here. Nobody has accused

:43:38.:43:41.

this man of any wrongdoing, and many have told me they have

:43:41.:43:44.

benefited from his treatment. Although, he says, he can cure many

:43:44.:43:49.

illnesses, he also told me he has had clients he has had to pass on

:43:49.:43:55.

to doctors. We don't want to interfere with the job of doctors,

:43:55.:44:00.

or mid-kal professionals. So everybody -- medical professionals.

:44:01.:44:04.

So everybody does their job. you think some of the problems

:44:04.:44:08.

people might think are psychological are to do with the

:44:08.:44:13.

Jin? Could be psychological problem, but the one behind it is the Jin.

:44:13.:44:19.

Because the Jin can play with us, can deceive us, the Jin can even

:44:19.:44:24.

deceive doctors. You see there is a difficult line

:44:24.:44:28.

there, that if someone believes in this they might not seek the right

:44:28.:44:35.

help? If it is a fairy, how can I explain the, how can I explain the

:44:35.:44:43.

things that I'm going through? Here in East London, the mental

:44:43.:44:47.

Health Trust told me their services were established to serve a

:44:47.:44:51.

community where religion was dying out. Now, most of their patients

:44:51.:44:57.

value the spiritual as much as they do science.

:44:57.:45:01.

It may be 2012, but this is an issue British institutions are

:45:01.:45:07.

struggling with today. That report by Catrin Nye.

:45:07.:45:17.
:45:17.:45:40.

That's it for tonight, Emily is here tomorrow, until then, good

:45:41.:45:50.
:45:51.:46:14.

Good evening. We have seen flooding across south-west Scotland today.

:46:14.:46:17.

There is more rain in the forecast for Tuesday. Moving relatively

:46:17.:46:20.

quickly across Scotland, and by the afternoon, things looking a bit

:46:20.:46:23.

dryer and brighter, for England and Wales, we are sticking with a lot

:46:23.:46:27.

of cloud and rain for the afternoon. It is grey, it is quite dull and

:46:27.:46:30.

damp across a good part of Yorkshire and the east Midland. We

:46:30.:46:36.

will see temperatures in London at 13 degrees, we could see some rain

:46:36.:46:41.

by 3.00pm. For south-west England, still a lot of cloud round here,

:46:41.:46:46.

patchy rain with strong wind, especially round the coast. Still

:46:46.:46:51.

cloudy skies across a good part of Wales, further outbreak of rain,

:46:51.:46:54.

strong gale force wind at times. The wind still strong at this stage

:46:54.:46:57.

for Northern Ireland, the heavyist of the rain has cleared through. We

:46:57.:47:01.

will have an afternoon with some bright spells, and a similar story

:47:01.:47:05.

for Scotland, strong winds out towards the North West corner, the

:47:05.:47:08.

worst of the rain at this stage will have clear away. For Tuesday,

:47:08.:47:13.

a slight mixed bag for Edinburgh by the afternoon. Sunny spells and

:47:13.:47:17.

temperatures at 13. By Wednesday in the north mainly dry, fine and

:47:17.:47:20.

bright. On Tuesday, sticking with the rain

:47:20.:47:24.

throughout much of the day. Wednesday, overall, a bit of an

:47:24.:47:28.

Mark Urban assesses the chances of an imminent ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. The Church of England is likely to endorse female bishops, but what if parishioners don't want them? Also, is Britain really the most influential country in the world? And a report on the exorcists in the British Asian community. Kirsty Wark presents.