19/11/2012 Newsnight


Mark Urban assesses the chances of an imminent ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. And reaction to the Church of England's possible endorsement of female bishops. With Kirsty Wark.

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Who can stop Gaza and Israel descending into a ground war. The


world can call for a ceasefire again and again, who holds the


cards? As we go on air, peace negotiations are happening, not


much goodwill on either side. Israel and Hamas both want it to


stop, and it is Egypt that holds a key role in mediating.


I will be asking the quartet spokesman, Tony Blair, is there


going to be a ceasefire? The Church of England is likely to


endorse female bishops, but parishioners can refuse their


minutes traigss. What do you think about the idea of


women bishops? I don't like it one little bit. I don't think you can


alter the word of God, that is what they are doing, in my humble


opinion. Equal in the eyes of God, a female bishop discusses with an


Anglican who disapproves of her. # Nobody does it better


Britain may not run an empire any more, but apparently when it comes


to soft power, nobody does it better. Do the Olympics, James Bond


and the Queen, really make us the most influential country in the


world? Also tonight?


Is it you causing the panic attack. Witchcraft in Waltham stow, the


exorcists in Britain treating demonic possession. They can play


with us, deceive us and even doctors.


Good evening, more than 100 dead in Gaza, three in Israel, as Israel


pounds the strip in retaliation for rocket attacks. President Obama


called the Israeli Prime Minister and the Egyptian President to


discuss deescalating the violence, witnessed so far in the six-day


offence. Benjimin Netanyahu, who has put four conditions on the


table for a ceasefire, including the promise of international effort


to stop Hamas rearming. How does that square with Egypt's proposal


for a ceasefire. Mark Urban, is there any sign of a ceasefire


tonight? We know there has been discussion with Egypt, and the


parties involved. It has been talked up with the Egyptian and


Palestinian sources, with the Israelis tending to talk it down.


Tonight the inner cabinet in Israel, including all the key decision


makers, went into session a couple of hours ago, and is still in


session as we week now. They are considering terms coming out of


Cairo, and also whether to continue postponing the ground operation


they have planned. We know from the similar limited conflicts against


Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006, and Gaza in 2009, that once


the parties start these things, they find it quite hard to stop


them, without some sort of minimum terms. In both those previous cases,


without ground fight. In this case, the minimum terms are to do with


stopping the arms supplies from Israel, and from Hamas perspective,


ending the Israeli blockade, which means getting more access into the


Israeli economy. We don't know whether the two sides are prepared


to make the necessary conditions in order to achieve that at the moment.


While that uncertainty carries on, the bombing goes on too.


Today's strikes in Gaza saw more targeting of individuals, as well


as rocket sites, leading to scores of casualties. In this attack,


Israel killed an Islamic Jihad militia commander, in the same


building that was being used by several news organisations.


This is escalation, no doubt. But both sides now seem to be searching


for a way out. In order for a ceasefire to be stable, I believe


it requires a mediated deal, an Egyptian-brokered deal. With a tri-


lateral understanding between Israel, Egypt and Hamas, in which


all parties' concerns are addressed. For example, Israel is highly


concerned about the smuggling of weapons, from Sinai, into Gaza. In


order to deal with that, you need an Egyptian commitment to do a


serious job along the border. Up to this morning, 860 rockets had


been fired at Israel. They say their missile defences knocked down


320, and that there has been a fall in the number fired from around 300,


during the first two days, to about 180 in the past two days. The cost


for the people in Gaza has increased, the death toll there is


now over 100, with three people killed in Israel. Hamas insist,


though, it is not fighting a war of diminishing returns.


TRANSLATION: We are the people of a just cause, we are not the


agressors against anyone. This is Palestine, whoever attacks


Palestine will be buried. Today Cairo became The Crucible for peace


mediation efforts, with the UN Secretary-General flying in, as


well as Israeli and Hamas delegations being in town. Egypt


has mediated past disputes, but now it has a democratic, Islamist


Government, that is much more supportive of Hamas. The position


of Egypt is not going to be repeated as Mubarak used to act. We


can see that clearly by withdrawing the ambassador from Israel. Ask the


ambassador, the Israeli ambassador to leave. That itself is


significant. Mr Morsi has clearly said, we are not going to leave


Gaza by itself. Facing this aggression.


Both sides now want a ceasefire, but equally, they both know that a


simple cessation of violence could look too much like a sticking


plaster solution, that will come apart when the next flare up


happens. So while terms that might be acceptable to the Israelis and


Hamas are searched for by mediator, there is the prospect of an Israeli


ground operation. That hangs over everybody like a Sword of Damocles.


It may follow the lines of 2009's ground push, severing Gaza's main


communications route, and halting normal life in much of the strip,


as well as producing hundreds of civilian deaths. Its purpose then


was essentially to raise the pain level for Hamas. Israeli generals


may now be contemplating something bigger. They have called up 80,000


reservists, enough for three Armoured Divisions, they could be


used to cut the border with Egypt, along the called Philadelphia Road


line, as well as sever all communications in the strip. That


could produce higher civilian casualties, as well as


international outrage. Egypt is better positioned to influence


Hamas, because of the close relationship, and that affords


Egypt a unique position to broker a ceasefire, which they are trying to


do. I hope they will be successful. Tonight, there are reports that


agreement may be close. But also that the two sides are still


trading rockets for air strikes. One thing is clear, when a halt


does come, each side will try to convince its people that the past


week's suffering has been worth it. A little earlier, I spoke to the


former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who is now the representative of


the European Union, the United Kingdom, the United States and


Russia, the called Quartet, on Middle East peace.


Tony Blair, first of all, who do you think has got the best chance


of brokering this ceasefire? Egypt. There is no real doubt, I think,


that the Egyptians are in the best position to try to broker the


ceasefire. I know they have been making very strong efforts to do it.


It is in their interests to do it. It is actually obviously in the


interests of the people in Gaza, because they are suffering, and you


know there has been a lot of civilian casualties there in the


past 24 hours. In it is in the interests of the people in Israel,


there is a million people in the south of Israel who are taking


shelter every night, in shelter, the schools are shut, and normal


life is impeded. So it is, frankly, in everyone's interests to get this


done. But, there are concerns that some of the longer-range weapons,


from Gaza, are actually being filtered through from Egypt? Well,


there are concerns, and one of the crucial issues is going to be, that


even if you get a ceasefire, what will then definitely come on the


agenda in order to deal with this, is the question of more weapons and


the longer-range weapons coming into Gaza. If Israel feels under


attack, then it will defend itself. Likewise, I hope that it is


possible, if we could calm the situation, to get to the point


where people in Gaza are allowed to live more normal lives. There are


two very, very clear objectives, for people in Gaza and people in


Israel, that should be secured. The one thing that is for certain is


that the longer these hostilities go on, the more innocent people


suffer. It is important to try to bring it to an end if we possibly


can. If there are weapons coming through from Egypt, is there no


pressure. Look, Egypt is getting so much aid from the US, and so much


from Europe, otherwise the country would really be in the doldrums s


there no pressure we can put on to make sure that this weaponry does


not come through from Egypt? Well, there is a lot of pressure going on.


But there are many different routes, I'm afraid, of weapons into Gaza.


And, to be fair to the Egyptian authorities, it is not always


possible for them to act in the way that, in theory, you would think is


possible. However, having said that, look, I think one thing is for sure,


that if what happens is that you have a ceasefire, but then there is


a restocking of armments coming into Gaza, - armourments coming


into Gaza, particularly the long- rage missiles and the Fage-5


missiles with a range of 75kms. They are essentially from an


Iranian origin, if they start coming in, Israel will feel under


threat and it will act. Do you agree, the harassment of Israel by


weaponry from Gaza is as nothing as to the disproportionate response


from Israel, would you suggest it is disproportionate, look there is


over 100 dead? It is terrible that you have these civilian casualties


in Gaza, but the problem is this, once you start the hostilities, and


there are rockets being fired at Israeli towns and villages, and


Israel's got the capability through this Iron Dome to knock out about


eight out of ten of them, and of course the weaponry is far less


sophisticated, then you have Gaza, the Gaza strip is 20-25 miles long,


it is a few miles wide, you have 1.75 million people living there.


The rockets are fired out of densely civilian areas. The only


way, the only way of protecting the civilian population in Gaza is to


get the ceasefire. The only way you are going to do this is to stop it


and then deal with the long-term issues. And your role, as a


spokesman for the Quartet, the Quartet theself is not in favour of


talking toam mass, but you, I understand -- to Hamas, but you, I


understand, take a different line, that actually it would be good to


talk to Hamas? I'm bound by the Quartet principles, and they are


very clear, that we don't engage with Hamas, that Hamas can't come


into the peace process unless they give up violence and accept the


right of Israel to exist. My point is very simple, that it would be


sensible if you were able to have all the parties at the table, but


you can't really have that situation unless there is an


acceptance that it is only through political means and negotiation and


peaceful negotiation that you pursue your political objectives.


By the way, when, in the Northern Ireland situation, we began the


peace process, we did it only after the acceptance of Sinn Fein that


purely peaceful means would be used. That's actually the real sticking


point here. Look, that's for a later time. But right now what is


important, is, as I say, to deescalate the situation, bring


some calm and work on stablise it, not just for the short-term, but


the long-term. Both the EU and the US have called


for ceasefire, what chance would you give a ceasefire in the next 24


hours? It is possible. The interests of Egypt, Israel and


people in Gaza are aligned, in this sense, that everyone wants to see a


cessation of hostilities. On the other hand, the only basis upon


which that will come, is that the cessation is genuine, and that


these longer-term questions go on the table and can be dealt with. I


don't know, quite honestly. I know there are very intensive efforts


that are continuing as we speak, I hope something fruitful will come


out of it. Thank you very much for joining us.


Of course, a small correction, the fourth member of the Quartet is not


the UK, it is the UN. If you were a betting person, your


money might be on a "yes" vote at the General Synod of the Church of


England, when the congregation decides whether or not to accept


female bishops. The yes is the outgoing Bishop of Canterbury, but


to pass the historic support must receive two thirds of bishops,


Clergy and lay members to become law. The battle is intense, even if


it allows women bishops, they still won't be quite equal to the men.


Holy communion is celebrated at St James's church in Lower Gornal. The


incense and rites are High Church and deeply traditional. While women


make up most of the congregation, ministering to them is seen as


man's work. As for the job of donning a


bishop's mither, women need not apply. Mitre, women need not apply.


You can't change something the Church of England believes to be,


it is part of the holy apost tollic Catholic Church. You would need a


council to make it legitimate. there anything about the work of a


bishop that a woman couldn't do? think a woman can actually do the


functions, but it is the validity of the office, isn't it.


A so it is, that those who object to women bishops argue it is not a


matter of worldly discrimination, but biblical teaching. Christ, a


man, called 12 other men to be his apostles, so we may all be equal


before God, but not when it comes to leadership within the Church of


England. Afterwards over coffee, the


congregation was stirred up by the thought of the synod vote. I was


born a traditionalists, no doubt I will die aed traditionalists.


think they can do all the pastoral care very well, you know, but it is


the sacraments that I like to hang on to, as far as a male is


concerned. There is a place in the church for


women, I would admit, it is not the priest or the bishop, in my humble


opinion. The 12 disciples were chosen, they were men. So, there.


You are one of the youngest people in the congregation, what do you


think of the idea of women bishops? I don't agree with it. This is my


family church, these are my family beliefs, I will stick with my


family traditions. This place is found in the sprawl of Birmingham,


but falls in the Worcester diocese. One thing that has surprised me,


the you get into the English countryside, and it doesn't get


more English than here, the more open people are to the idea of


women bishops. It is in the towns and cities where most of the


opposition lies. That's where the traditional anglo-


Catholic Churchs are concentrated. In rural areas like this, the


smaller number of parishs tends to make for more mixed congregations.


At holy Trinity, a special service is presided over by the Bishop of


Worcester, women make up a third of the church's Clergy, tomorrow he


will vote for them to become bishops too. The Church of England


has been hugely enriched by the women as priests, for over 20 years


now. I hope and pray with all my heart that the legislation


presently before synod on Tuesday will be passed. Because it will


enable us to be enriched by the Ministry of Women, not just as


priests, but as bishops. I think that will be of enormous benefit to


the church. The move is widely backed, although


the make-up of the General Synod means the vote will be close.


Rachel hopes one day herself to be ordained, and believes what's


written in the Bible is no bar. can go all the way through the


Bible and you can find things that will back up reasons why and


reasons why not. I think for me you just have to, if you look at some


women it is so clear that is the thing they are meant to be. Who are


we to say no. For the Reverend Lizzie Ship,


admitting women bishops is a matter of moving with the times, and


catching up with Anglican Churches in new zee is land, Australia --


New Zealand, Australia and the United States. We have been


thinking about this, we have been arguing, spliting hairs over it for


the last 20 years, the time is right for the church, the time is


right for the nation. I think it is a manifest bidding of the Holy


Spirit that women should now be ordained as bishops.


In Oxford, this is home of the Bishop of Ebbsfleet, one of the


called "flying bishops", his job is to however over a vast area of


England, from Cornwall to Derby, he then swoops in to support those


parishs, like the one we saw at Lower Gornal where they don't


accept the authority of a bishop who has ordained women into the


priesthood. We see ourselves as part of the team of bishops, part


of the episs cop pal ministry of the Church of England, where pirbs


like any other bishops, but we do ensure that Clergy, parishs and


people of this particular tradition feel cared for, and I think we have


succeeded in hold ago lot of people in the Church of England who might


otherwise have found it difficult to remain. This accommodation may


well have stemmed the flow of Anglicans to the Catholic Church,


it will allow them to bypass women bishops too, but it is an unhappy


compromise. In order to keep those who are opposed to the legislation


you have to curtail women from functioning wholly as bishops.


There are some areas where they can't go. Those of us who feel the


Christian faith is clear that in Christ there should be neither male


for female, there is a part of us think that is not quite right. But


we want to value those and keep within the fold those who have


difficulties. Parishs around the country will be


watching, the next Archbishop of Canterbury hopes the faithful will


disagree in love. Another difficult compromise.


Having spent the day at at Westminster ahead of the vote, Emma


Forward is here, she was the youngest member of the Church of


England's governing body for seven years, and has been re-elected


recently From New Zealand we are joined by the Right Reverend


Victoria Matthews, the first woman to be ordained in the Anglican


Communion. Good evening to you both. The first episle to Timothy says "I


allow no women to teach or have authority over men, she is to keep


silent", Bishop Matthews do you believe that? I think that is part


of a scripttural witness. I have huge -- scriptureal witness, I have


huge respect for that. Part of that is also that Jesus, the Son of God


was born of women, and so you could argue that the first person to


celebrate within herself the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ


was a woman, the Virgin Mary. I also recognise the very first


witness to the resurrection was Mary Magdelene. Scripture should be


looked at as a whole, and balanceed with one witness by another. I'm


quoting the goes bells, that is a higher authority. -- Gospels, that


is a higher authority. My point about what was said about


the Virgin Mary, the way God called her was uniquely as a women,


something only a woman could do. We should look at scripture as a


whole, in his callings of every prophet and person we look at in


scriptture, he calls every person as their gender as a man or woman.


If the vote goes against you tomorrow, and the women bishops


will come into existence in the Church of England very quickly.


Does that mean for you that women are equal to men in the eyes of


God? The vote tomorrow is very interesting, because I would


actually say it is not entirely that if the vote going against me,


I feel the vote would go against the church, and future of the


church. The legislation that we have in front of us is potentially


very problematic, it is not lasting. Let as be clear, if it does go


against you, let's take your position in principle and in


religion, you would refuse to take communion from Bishop Matthews,


wouldn't you? Yes. And you would refuse it take communion from


anyone that Bishop Matthews ordained a priest, even if it was a


man? I would require the ministration of a male bishop and I


and many other people, many or women, many other young men and


women would have that same view. Bishop Matthews, what does that


make you think when you hear what Emma is saying? I'm a huge


respecter of conscience. I'm hearing Emma speak of her


conscience, and I respect that. I think that there will be a period


of time, as has happened in other provinces of the Anglican Communion,


where women in the Episocbate begins to be accepted and lived


through. But I'm in my 19th year as a bishop.


I have to say, I think I have enabled ministry, and mission, I


believe I have proclaimed the gospel, I don't think I have been a


barrier. So I actually see and it's not, of course, my vote at all. I'm


in another province. I see what is happening in the Church of England


as a matter of building a bridge and crossing it. I want to ask you


what you feel about the idea of "flying bishops", you don't have


these in New Zealand, this will only be in England. There will be


"flying bishops" who will move in, when people in your position are


about to give communion "flying bishops" can come, as it were, and


knock you over. What do you feel about that? Well, first of all, one


must remember that "flying bishops" are not new in England, they have


been there for quite some time. for this purpose? Since the


ordination of women as priests. for the stopping bishops? No, no.


Secondly, I take exception to the "knock me over"! What I have done


in the past, is to respect conscience. So I have, on occasion


said, would you care to come and share with me, in the service, so


that we are able to more fully minister to the needs of people of


a certain persuasion. It is not an arm wrestling, it is not a matter


of winners and losers, it is a matter of the body of Christ,


serving the body of Christ. I would completely agree with that.


You would agree with that, but the problem might be, Emma, is for


example, the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, is


leading the charge for the yes vote. You would be in the position where


you would not take communion from your own Archbishop, is that


compatible with your life in the church? It wouldn't be the case


that I wouldn't take communion from my own Archbishop. But it would be


somebody who would happily ordain a woman as a bishop? It doesn't work


in that way. I would agree with all of what Bishop Victoria said there


there are real positive ways we can work together. It is not the case


that we are looking to knock each other over, that we are looking to


push each other out of certain areas, we are looking for really


constructive ways to work forward. This legislation that we have in


front of us, tomorrow, doesn't offer that. That is why a no vote


is essential. Have you taken a bet on whether you


will get it? You don't bet, sorry. It is impossible to call. And it


doesn't work like that. What makes a country great, or gives it


potential clout around the world. Once it was military pow res,


mineral riches and industrial might, now something else is in play and


we do it well, which must be a godsend considering our economic


performance. According to a Monocle survey, Britain beats the world in


"soft power", invaluable when it comes to the exercise of global


power and influence. Danny Boyle's Opening Ceremony at


the Olympic was a demonstration of all things great and glorious about


our nation. The performance, watched by nine million people,


contributed to the UK's global influence via soft power. The term


was coined more than 20 years ago by an American economist, and


relates to the power of persuasion, compared to hard power, which is a


nation's economic or military might. The annual global soft power survey


by the magazine, Monocle, has ranked nations looking at 50


factors based on quality of Government, diplomatic


infrastructure, qulure and business appeal. And -- culture, and


business appeal. Thanks to the likes of Bradley wig again, 007 and


Adele, the UK ranks number one, ahead of the US, Germany, France


and Swede. But is soft power an important symbol of our global


influence, or is it a consolation prize for a country that no longer


has any real clout. And just because we can boast such


influence, do we know how to use it to the best of our advantage.


The UK won't host another Olympics for a lifetime, and soft power


still requires a strong economy. Already snapping at our heels in


the soft power ranks are countries like South Korea, Brazil and China.


Nations which are not short of a bit of hard power as well.


Does Britannia rule the airwaves and not the actually waves. Joining


me is Chrystia Freeland, author of Plutocrats.


What is the basis of any traditional claim we have to soft


power? You started off in talking about this in saying military power


is not the game today, it is all about soft power, but actually, I


think you could argue that a lot of the soft power that Britain has


today you can trace it back directly to Britain's historic


military power. Britain has lost its empie, but it left the English


lan -- empire, but it left the English language, that is


continuously important in the Anglo-Saxon countries. You talked


about Germany, France, Swede not being so high up, it is much harder


to project speaking in Swedish. Which suggests as the axis of power


shifts in the world, that soft power will dissipate, no longer


necessarily will English be the dominant language in 50 years, who


knows? This will be an and tremenduously interesting balance


in shift in the world. English seems pretty thoroughly established


as the lingafranka, of the world, there will be more Chinese speaks


English than native English speakers in the future. Will they


still want London, New York, Los Angeles, to be setting the cultural


tone? I don't know. Is soft power, essentially a posh way of saying


PR? No, I think it is a lot more than that. I think it is about


cultural values, and those cultural values do become political values.


It is really interesting that Hillary Clinton, throughout her


time as Secretary of State, she started off emphasising something


she called "smart power", which was a latest twist on soft power, now


she's talking about "economic statecraft", with economic policy


being central to foreign policy. The other thing I think is so


interesting about this, is how far does it go beyond music, beyond


culture? Is it also about politics? When the Chinese go to Africa,


something that can be quite appealing for an African dictator


is the Chinese say, you can have economic growth, and still be an


authoritarian regime. It seems to me, before China wasn't really


interested in soft power, they didn't feel they needed it before?


The Chinese actually, I think, are really a country to watch when it


comes to soft power. They have been quite careful to frame their


emergence in world geopolitics as the peaceful rise. They talk about


a lot about how they are not interested in projecting military


force, much beyond our borders, we just want to grow strong


economically. Now as you see that economic expansion in other parts


of the world, there is a political message wrapped in there.


quickly do people forget the fact that the Queen, sort of, jumped out


of the helicopter, and Adele sings, and we had a wonderful Olympics


Opening Ceremony, and we had Bradley wig agains, that stuff


doesn't -- Wiggins, that stuff doesn't last very long does it?


may not. The big question to ask if you are a British person s how does


that translate into improving my -- is how does that translate into


improving my leave. Swede doesn't have a great soft power, they have


a grate Twitter feed if you are interested in soft power. But does


Britain's soft power make your life better as a Brit. If this


Government wants to continue the idea that Britain holds soft power,


what would it be investing in? would be invest anything you Kirsty,


in the BBC, it would be investing in British cultural institutions.


Thank you very much indeed. Words for evil spirit s, Jin Jardoo,


possession, some not so familiar, all things that psychiatrists and


the criminal justice system are having to countenance. Research by


the University of Warwick are looking at a growing number of


people blaming mental illness on possession.


We spent ten months exposing why exorcists are teaching serious


illness and murd certificate explained away by the presence of -


- murder is explained away by the presence of evil spirits. Muddess


Khan works for a lettings Europe in Walthamstow in East London. He's in


charge of maintaining hundreds of properties. He works flexible hours


because he suffers from panic attacks, he has been signed off


work in the past and is on anti- depressants. I'm fine when I'm


working, if the day before, the night before, I do feel that it is


getting a little bit heavy, I wouldn't normally come in.


claims medication hasn't worked for him. Instead he says he's possessed


by a Jin, a supernatural being. are burning. Who is burning you.


Ahhhhhhhh. You're burning. I'm not burning you, who is burning you?


Who is burning you? Who is burning you? I'm reading. What I am reading.


What I am reading. Yes. You don't believe what I'm reading? Yeeesss.


Streeting him is Abu Mohammed, an exorcists who operates from the


back room of his home. He's summoning the Jin from inside the


man, he speaks to it directly you who is causing him panic attack.


Yeah. Is it him to sends him to hospital. What did you do? He's


well known, he has a waiting list months long, and charges �60 a


session for his services. He claims to remove evil spirits from people,


who believe therapysed, by reading passages -- they are possessed, by


reading passages from the Koran. The exorcist knows what he does is


some what controversial. While we are filming he is constantly


filming us, concerned we are going to distort what he is doing here.


My body feels battered, that is what it feels like.


Even now I feel a bit drowsy, it is slowly wearing off. All that


reading. You think you will feel better now


for having come here? Perhaps for the rest of the week? It will give


me a boost. It will yes, it is like a dose of medicine, innit.


There is a magic in this body. These views are not uncommon, among


British Asians in the UK, the belief in evil spirits is


widespread, that can be concepts like Black Magic, at the more


extreme it is the body is possessed, causing physical harm. The concept


of Jin is in the Koran, for British Muslim, in particular, there is a


theological grounding for their belief. What Jin actually are is


not universally agreed upon. Serving these communies are


hundreds of spiritual healers across the UK, some charging


thousands. In the course of making this film, I have heard evil


spirits and Jin blamed for epilepsy, for bipolar disorder, criminal


activity, even not getting a job. These called healers can be


harmless, even helpful to some, what is concerning academics is


when they replace medical care for serious problems. Jins they are


very unpredictable. When 20-year- old Nadine, whose name we have


changed, became ill, he and his family thought he had a spiritual


family, that he was possessed by a Jin. Came downstairs, my dad was


there, I said I feel weird, I said the walls look weird, and I can't


take it. A haerl was brought in to try to remove the Jin he felt was


inside him. When he didn't recover, his family took him to hospital.


The psychiatrist came and said what was the matter. He wasn't aware of


the Jins, he was shell shocked himself. He's now diagnosed with


schizophrenia and takes daily medication.


Do you, in any way regret getting medical help sooner? No, I'm glad


we went through the spiritual help first.


It is cases like this that cause concern for mental health


professionals, that, like many, his illness was instantly attributed to


possession. This professor has just completed a five-year study about


this, funded by the Department of Health. Here he presents his


results to a Sikh mental health conference in Birmingham.


extreme case I can think of in the last few years, is a Sikh gentleman


who became ill when he was 18. But the family sought help within the


community faith group. He didn't come to psychiatric intervention


for 13 years, we saw him when he was 3 1. By that time a lot of


damage is done. Any group of clinicians, working in an inner


city area, they will have all seen this, it is an every day experience.


It is not necessarily a problem of social class or education. So a lot


of people? A lot of people. Don't do this to her. Tell me what is you


are plan, what have you been doing? The professor says it is key its


patients admit to their religious ceremonies or healing, it can be


helpful, as long as it is not an alternative to medical care. What


has been found is that for some British Asians it is simply more


acceptable to be possessed than mentally ill.


To obey him only. To obey him only. I think it is a combination of how


cultures make sense for people. How stigma just prevents them from


recognises what it really is. Quite often, people see abnormal


behaviour as some how being caused by some bad influence, rather than


a sign of mental illness. That badness, becomes an external


manevolenceA Black Magic by someone, a shadow, a Jin. It is this kind of


thinking that means courts are also having to grapple with the son


September of possession. -- concept of possession. This is


Nyla Muntess on her wedding day, watching her are her brother, just


over a month ago, the man she's marrying, along with his parents,


and his brother-in-law, were jailed for life for her murder.


The trial heard evidence that Nyla was killed as family members


attempted to drive out an evil spirit. Again, they said, she was


possessed by a Jin. TRANSLATION: The thinking behind


her in-laws was that they would basically have the body released,


get the body released, take it home to Pakistan, it would be very easy


to explain away anything by basically having that capture-all,


Jin did it. The called healer in the room it is thought when she was


murdered, was never traced. They provide a tough task for


prosecutors, under the radar. A few weeks ago, in another case in East


London, a religious healer, who beat a woman with a stick, has


never been found. There have been two high-profile court cases in


Birmingham and London. Both cases, the called healer not traced,


nowhere to be seen. Is that a failure? It is a back -- lack of


understanding of how these people operate. They operate in the


shadows. They are protected by others in their communities, faith


or places of worship. They may leave the country. So it is very


difficult to track down the "healer". Would you say this is an


increasing problem, a problem you are seeing more often? We are


becoming more aware of it. Whether it is increasing or not. I'm


pleased we have been talking to lots of community groups over the


last three or four years, who want to tackle it themselves. You make


him sick, all the way from Pakistan you came here. Nobody has accused


this man of any wrongdoing, and many have told me they have


benefited from his treatment. Although, he says, he can cure many


illnesses, he also told me he has had clients he has had to pass on


to doctors. We don't want to interfere with the job of doctors,


or mid-kal professionals. So everybody -- medical professionals.


So everybody does their job. you think some of the problems


people might think are psychological are to do with the


Jin? Could be psychological problem, but the one behind it is the Jin.


Because the Jin can play with us, can deceive us, the Jin can even


deceive doctors. You see there is a difficult line


there, that if someone believes in this they might not seek the right


help? If it is a fairy, how can I explain the, how can I explain the


things that I'm going through? Here in East London, the mental


Health Trust told me their services were established to serve a


community where religion was dying out. Now, most of their patients


value the spiritual as much as they do science.


It may be 2012, but this is an issue British institutions are


struggling with today. That report by Catrin Nye.


That's it for tonight, Emily is here tomorrow, until then, good


Good evening. We have seen flooding across south-west Scotland today.


There is more rain in the forecast for Tuesday. Moving relatively


quickly across Scotland, and by the afternoon, things looking a bit


dryer and brighter, for England and Wales, we are sticking with a lot


of cloud and rain for the afternoon. It is grey, it is quite dull and


damp across a good part of Yorkshire and the east Midland. We


will see temperatures in London at 13 degrees, we could see some rain


by 3.00pm. For south-west England, still a lot of cloud round here,


patchy rain with strong wind, especially round the coast. Still


cloudy skies across a good part of Wales, further outbreak of rain,


strong gale force wind at times. The wind still strong at this stage


for Northern Ireland, the heavyist of the rain has cleared through. We


will have an afternoon with some bright spells, and a similar story


for Scotland, strong winds out towards the North West corner, the


worst of the rain at this stage will have clear away. For Tuesday,


a slight mixed bag for Edinburgh by the afternoon. Sunny spells and


temperatures at 13. By Wednesday in the north mainly dry, fine and


bright. On Tuesday, sticking with the rain


throughout much of the day. Wednesday, overall, a bit of an


Mark Urban assesses the chances of an imminent ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. The Church of England is likely to endorse female bishops, but what if parishioners don't want them? Also, is Britain really the most influential country in the world? And a report on the exorcists in the British Asian community. Kirsty Wark presents.