05/02/2013 Newsnight


05/02/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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400 MPs say yes to gay marriage, and make history. But the majority

:00:16.:00:19.

of David Cameron's Conservative Party didn't back him. One member

:00:19.:00:25.

of the cabinet tells us some Tories have further to go than others.

:00:25.:00:29.

Sometimes parts of the Conservative Party move, but they move more

:00:29.:00:34.

slowly, or a few paces behind prevailing social attitudes, or the

:00:34.:00:37.

centre of gravity of social attitudes. I will speak to the

:00:37.:00:43.

woman who was married in the world's first same-sex ceremony.

:00:43.:00:51.

Deputy heads will roll in the LIBOR rate-fixes scandal, as RBS stands

:00:51.:00:57.

to pay �4 billion. We speak exclusively to France's

:00:57.:01:00.

Front National, Marine Le Pen, she tells us she supports David

:01:00.:01:07.

Cameron's aim of renegotiation in Europe. And: A lot of his people

:01:07.:01:12.

think he know what type of man he is, I have a clear picture of the

:01:12.:01:17.

type of sense of humour he has. Fans of the cross word writer,

:01:18.:01:22.

Araucaria, were left lost for words after solving one of his clues, we

:01:22.:01:31.

speak to him. Good evening, same-sex couple also

:01:31.:01:34.

soon enjoy the same rights to get married as they have in a dozen

:01:34.:01:37.

other countries. Following this evening's Commons vote, Britain is

:01:37.:01:41.

now in the vanguard of equality. But David Cameron's desire to

:01:41.:01:45.

modernise the country has split his party. More Tory MPs voted against

:01:45.:01:51.

the bill than for it. Including 18 members of the Government, two of

:01:51.:01:54.

them cabinet ministers, with dissenters talking about risking

:01:54.:01:57.

the life chances of British children, and pining that marriage

:01:57.:02:01.

should not be seen through the merciless prism of equality. On

:02:01.:02:05.

this controversial issue, might the cost to David Cameron outweigh the

:02:05.:02:15.
:02:15.:02:16.

gain. Here is our political editor. The beauty of marriage, said the

:02:16.:02:19.

Education Secretary at the weekend, was about that moment between two

:02:19.:02:23.

people when they go from thinking about me to we. But today David

:02:23.:02:29.

Cameron was confronted with no such mind meld. A reminder that many of

:02:29.:02:34.

his MPs are far from thinking of "we" not "me", when they regard

:02:34.:02:41.

their party and their party leader. The aye to the left 400, the nos to

:02:41.:02:48.

the left, 175. The ayes have it. In that vote of a few hours ago,

:02:48.:02:51.

more Conservative MPs disagreed with the Prime Minister than agreed

:02:51.:02:56.

with him. They didn't agree with this. There is something special

:02:56.:03:00.

about marriage. It is not about religion, it is not about morality,

:03:00.:03:07.

it is about commitment. By the way, I think it matters, and I think it

:03:07.:03:10.

means something, whether you are a man and a woman, or a woman and a

:03:10.:03:16.

woman, or a man and another man. They debated all afternoon. One of

:03:16.:03:19.

the most important figures on Cameron's backbenches did not feel

:03:19.:03:23.

he had assurance that those who did not want to marry gay couples would

:03:23.:03:26.

not be overruled by European Courts. I will vote against this measure

:03:26.:03:31.

tonight, not because I think the world will end if we see it pass.

:03:31.:03:36.

But because I have serious misgivings that in spite of the

:03:36.:03:39.

minister's commendable efforts, recognised by the Church of England,

:03:39.:03:44.

as has been commented earlier in the debate. It is impossible to

:03:44.:03:47.

guarantee that religious freedom will not be compromised.

:03:47.:03:51.

couldn't give a guarantee that people would be protected.

:03:51.:03:55.

their religious freedom would be protect, because it is impossible

:03:55.:03:58.

to guarantee it T will be taken to the European Court, and if we pass

:03:58.:04:01.

this measure, then it will be taken to the European Court.

:04:01.:04:08.

If the Government is serious about this, take it away, abolish the

:04:08.:04:14.

civil partnerships bill, abolish civil marriage, and create a civil

:04:14.:04:18.

union bill, that applies to all people, irrespective of their

:04:18.:04:22.

sexuality or their relationships, that means brothers and brothers,

:04:22.:04:25.

and sisters and sisters, and brothers and sisters as well. That

:04:25.:04:31.

would be a way forward. This is not. It is a sad day for me, Mr Deputy

:04:31.:04:35.

Speaker, it is my saddest day as a member of this House, when my party

:04:36.:04:42.

brings in a bill which I'm fundamentally opposed to. Why is my

:04:42.:04:48.

view, or the loader of my party, any more important than the person

:04:48.:04:53.

in the Dog and Duck in Wellingborough. So what is the

:04:53.:05:00.

opinion in Bone's constituency, this isn't the Dog and duck, but it

:05:00.:05:05.

is the Hind Hotel, we brought together three Conservatives and a

:05:05.:05:09.

gay couple. Call me old fashioned, but as a Christian I believe that

:05:09.:05:13.

marriage is for the procreation of children, and it is between a man

:05:13.:05:17.

and a woman. And I really think we're in a very dangerous situation

:05:17.:05:22.

when we let the state change religion or change faith. I think

:05:22.:05:26.

the Government has been very careful, overly careful, they have

:05:26.:05:31.

got a quadruple lock on this, they have banned the Church of England

:05:31.:05:36.

and the Church of Wales. That is bizarre in itself. Apparently they

:05:36.:05:40.

weren't consulted to any great degree. Other faiths are allowed to

:05:40.:05:44.

opt in, which is perfectly right. If a faith looks at its

:05:44.:05:47.

congregation and say we are all happy with blessing same-sex

:05:47.:05:52.

marriages, the Quakers want to and the liberal Jewish sects want to,

:05:52.:05:56.

that should be allowed. I don't think it necessarily stems, with

:05:56.:06:01.

respect to Barbara from religion, I think it stems from a disbelief

:06:01.:06:08.

that something as fundamental as marriage could be tinkered with,

:06:08.:06:12.

whether or not it may seem to you that it is unfair at the moment. I

:06:12.:06:17.

think for many of us we feel that it's, if you are going to interfere

:06:17.:06:24.

with marriage, what about interfering with death and birth.

:06:24.:06:27.

Many Conservative rebels feared that religious organisations, due

:06:27.:06:32.

to have to opt in if they want to hold gay weddings, would actually

:06:32.:06:37.

feel coerced. One Unitarian church up in North London is already gung

:06:37.:06:42.

ho. Up here in Newington Green, historically outside the City of

:06:42.:06:50.

London, they have made up their own rules, Tom Pane and people like

:06:50.:06:55.

Benjamin Franklin worshiped here. And 300 years on they want to let

:06:55.:07:00.

gay couples married. David Cameron might feel he's more in the role of

:07:00.:07:06.

Edmund Burke, but on this he feels a radical, he wants gay couples to

:07:06.:07:09.

marry because he's a Conservative, not despite being one. This former

:07:09.:07:13.

minister in David Cameron's Government agrees. Entering a civil

:07:13.:07:17.

partnership was the most important thing I have done in my life. When

:07:17.:07:22.

I was born, homosexual conduct was a crime, not so long ago it was

:07:22.:07:26.

possible to sack someone because they were gay. People did not dare

:07:26.:07:31.

to be open, thank goodness so much has changed in my lifetime. Others

:07:31.:07:35.

took on their Conservative colleagues, and indeed, the Church

:07:35.:07:39.

of England. We may have gone two steps forward, but I fear we have

:07:39.:07:45.

also gone one step backward. The modernisation of the Conservative

:07:45.:07:51.

Party is not yet complete. My party should never flinch from the

:07:51.:07:55.

requirement that we must continue this prosession. Otherwise we may

:07:55.:07:59.

end ourselves up like the Republican Party, who lost an

:07:59.:08:05.

election last year that they could have won, were it not for their

:08:05.:08:08.

socially conservative agenda. And belatedly, only this weekend, the

:08:08.:08:12.

Church of England has finally admitted that it is not realistic

:08:12.:08:16.

or likely that churches will be forced to conduct same-sex weddings.

:08:16.:08:20.

I made that point earlier. But so easy to say that now, isn't it,

:08:20.:08:25.

when practically every person I meet, who doesn't follow the

:08:25.:08:28.

deliberations of political detail in great detail has said to me,

:08:28.:08:34.

it's about weddings in churches for gay people, isn't it? But with the

:08:35.:08:38.

issue spliting the Conservatives, and uniting most of Labour, but by

:08:38.:08:43.

no means all of Labour, the Shadow Home Secretary had fun. We all love

:08:43.:08:47.

the idea of a wedding, we all support the idea of a strong

:08:47.:08:51.

marriage. We all clearly like a good party, I notice from the

:08:51.:08:56.

impact assessment that the department has produced passing

:08:56.:09:01.

this legislation they reckon could lead to �14 million extra spent on

:09:01.:09:06.

celebrations. Which is a lot of confetti and rubber chicken. Mr

:09:06.:09:09.

Speaker, I don't think it will be quite enough to boost the economy

:09:09.:09:12.

and deliver Plan B, but I guess the Chancellor needs all the help he

:09:12.:09:16.

can get. The Conservatives will run a very

:09:16.:09:19.

presidential campaign ahead of the next election, they will ask you do

:09:19.:09:22.

you want to vote for this man, David Cameron to be your Prime

:09:22.:09:25.

Minister next. In order to do that, they will need to emphasise

:09:25.:09:28.

personal decisions he has taken. Included in that will be gay

:09:28.:09:32.

marriage, especially because he's done so with considerable

:09:32.:09:39.

opposition. To get up to the 43% that are a majority for the party,

:09:39.:09:44.

they have to get Labour and Lib Dem voters. Tonight the Prime Minister

:09:44.:09:47.

will be elated he is one step nearer to becoming the Prime

:09:47.:09:51.

Minister who legaliseed gay marriage. But his Attorney-General

:09:51.:09:58.

abstained, and two other cabinet ministers went against. The idea of

:09:58.:10:01.

a united party front is more in sickness than in health.

:10:01.:10:06.

Shortly after that vote I spoke to the Cabinet Office Minister, Reggie

:10:06.:10:12.

Maudling, widely seen as the -- Francis Maude, seen as the high

:10:12.:10:16.

priest of Tory modernisation. There will be same-sex marriage in spite

:10:16.:10:20.

of Conservative backbenchers. think the Conservative Party

:10:20.:10:24.

divided roughly like the country does, a lot of people on one side

:10:24.:10:27.

and the other. It has gone through parliament with a big majority,

:10:27.:10:31.

that is fine. As a modernising PM, which is very much what David

:10:31.:10:36.

Cameron sees himself as, he hasn't been able to carry the party on a

:10:36.:10:40.

key plank of his modernisation of the Tories? It is a free vote, MPs

:10:40.:10:44.

make their own mind up. If they had wanted to, they would have backed

:10:44.:10:48.

him as a moderniser, to show a party in touch with the 21st

:10:48.:10:52.

century, they turned their back on him? They didn't turn their back on

:10:53.:10:56.

him. This is very overemotional reaction to it. This was a free

:10:57.:11:01.

vote, where MPs are encouraged to exercise their judgment. On

:11:01.:11:06.

something which isn't a party matter. Yes, but when I'm just

:11:06.:11:11.

giving you a couple of phrases here, Gerald Howarth, one map, "this bill

:11:11.:11:16.

is about risking the life chances of British children", another one,

:11:16.:11:23.

Edward Lee, "marriage should not be seen through the merciless prism of

:11:23.:11:28.

equality", someone saying it is almost Orwellian what you are

:11:28.:11:31.

asking to do. What message does it send to the country about the

:11:31.:11:34.

Conservative Party? Not a strong one in any direction. I don't agree

:11:34.:11:39.

with my colleagues who have expressed themselves in that way. I

:11:39.:11:43.

and many Conservative MPs, and many members of the Conservative Party,

:11:43.:11:47.

are completely relaxed about giving the benefits of marriage, making

:11:47.:11:53.

them available to all couples, whether they are different sex or

:11:53.:11:56.

same-sex. We think this is not about making a dogma out of

:11:56.:12:00.

equality, but the benefits of marriage should be available to

:12:00.:12:05.

everyone. But you feel very strongly about this, and you talked

:12:05.:12:10.

of your regret that you had voted for Section 28 many years ago. But

:12:10.:12:15.

it was also informed by your brother's sexuality. So you have a

:12:15.:12:22.

personal stake in this? Yes. I think I'm broadly the same

:12:22.:12:27.

Conservative I was in the 1980s, when I started my long and

:12:27.:12:30.

checkered political career. I'm a fiscal Conservative, I'm an

:12:30.:12:37.

economic liberal, I believe in open markets, I'm a moderate realistic

:12:37.:12:42.

euro-sceptic, but I'm more socially liberal than I was. But the country

:12:42.:12:48.

is more socially liberal than it was, we're a much more tolerant

:12:48.:12:54.

society. We understand and respect the way in which people live their

:12:54.:13:01.

lives more than we Z that's good. At the time when Section 28 was

:13:01.:13:05.

voted through, and I do regret that I supported that, I regret that the

:13:05.:13:11.

Government then put it through, and I didn't understand then the way in

:13:11.:13:19.

which it came to be seen by gay people as a sort of emblem of

:13:19.:13:24.

hostility. We were right, subsequently, to repeal it. But, I

:13:24.:13:29.

think you have spoken movingly about had there been more tolerance,

:13:29.:13:32.

your brother may not have had the same fate that he had. His

:13:32.:13:36.

sexuality had often to be hidden, and was a thing that was not to be

:13:36.:13:39.

discussed, and that perhaps drove him into areas he wouldn't have

:13:39.:13:44.

otherwise gone to? I think that was less about law than about

:13:44.:13:49.

prevailing social attitudes. these social attitudes are still

:13:49.:13:55.

there, among many Conservative MPs. This is many years later? Among

:13:55.:14:00.

some. Over 140 voted against? an indication of the way in which

:14:00.:14:05.

things move is that many Conservative MPs who voted against

:14:05.:14:11.

the introduction of civil partnerships in 2004, now support

:14:11.:14:16.

civil partnerships. So sometimes parts of the Conservative Party

:14:16.:14:22.

move, but they move more slowly, or a few paces behind prevailing

:14:22.:14:26.

social attitudes, or the centre of gravity of social attitudes. Which

:14:26.:14:30.

have changed, and will probably continue to change in ways that it

:14:30.:14:36.

is hard to predict. But we get there. Maybe at different speeds.

:14:36.:14:42.

It would be presumtious of me to assert that, but it may well be

:14:42.:14:47.

that some of those who voted against equal marriage tonight will,

:14:47.:14:51.

in yours to come, change their view, I don't know. Social attitudes have

:14:52.:14:55.

changed, people's views change on some of these issues, and they

:14:55.:15:00.

change at different times, and some people's views will never change.

:15:00.:15:06.

That's fine too. These are issues of conscience, and people exercise

:15:06.:15:10.

their judgment in the way that they think right. I wouldn't criticise

:15:10.:15:15.

people for that. But it has been characterised, you have your George

:15:15.:15:20.

Osborne and William Hague and Theresa May extoling the vote.

:15:20.:15:24.

Obviously you had David Cameron championing it, I wonder the jeer

:15:24.:15:31.

that this is really the Notting Hill set, and there are two Tory

:15:31.:15:35.

Partys, and they are so far behind you? It is nonsense and doesn't

:15:35.:15:40.

reflect any reality I see and live with in my daily life. What is your

:15:40.:15:45.

reaction to the fact that it is a Conservative Government, who has

:15:45.:15:50.

managed, or will have managed, to have made sure that same-sex

:15:50.:15:56.

marriage, in Britain, is common place? I think it is a good thing

:15:56.:16:03.

to have done. I don't think it is massive change. I think public

:16:03.:16:07.

opinion, again it is, what I say about social attitudes, they have

:16:07.:16:13.

moved, they have changed. This will be seen, by most of the public, as

:16:13.:16:16.

a relatively uncontroversial thing, particularly among younger people

:16:17.:16:26.

who say, yeah, so what? That's a healthy thing. I think this will be

:16:26.:16:31.

seen to be something that will look in years to come, as a kind of

:16:31.:16:36.

relatively natural step, which people will not find, will struggle

:16:36.:16:39.

to understand why it was controversial at the time. Thank

:16:39.:16:46.

you very much indeed. From Maastricht in the Netherlands

:16:46.:16:52.

we talk to our guest who got married in 2001 in the world's

:16:52.:16:55.

first same-sex ceremony. Thank you very much for joining us, you

:16:55.:17:00.

married your life partner Ellen, why did you want to get married,

:17:00.:17:05.

rather than stick with your civil partnership? For us, in the

:17:05.:17:10.

Netherlands, marriage is the only legal bond that commits third

:17:10.:17:14.

parties as well. And I want to show everybody this is the person I want

:17:14.:17:19.

to share my life with. But do you accept that some people, for

:17:19.:17:24.

perfectly good reasons, religious reasons, and other reasons, will

:17:24.:17:30.

always be implacably opposed to what you have done and been able to

:17:30.:17:34.

do? I sometimes find that difficult, because I'm not different to anyone

:17:34.:17:39.

else, it is just a human right to choose to take care of someone you

:17:39.:17:42.

love, and to take care of your family, that is what I want.

:17:43.:17:48.

that right to take care of them, and to be a family, is different

:17:48.:17:54.

from saying we can only do that, or only feel able to commit to that

:17:54.:17:58.

properly within, some might say it, the confines of a marriage? It is

:17:58.:18:02.

not that you only can do that, you can take care of one another

:18:02.:18:06.

outside of the marriage, but it just gives you a legal bond, and

:18:06.:18:11.

that's a commitment for life. It is also making it possible that Ellen

:18:11.:18:15.

could adopt the children. For us that was very important. Because

:18:15.:18:19.

that gives her and the children legal rights to one another.

:18:19.:18:24.

course you are, as it were, the birth mother of your two children.

:18:24.:18:28.

What challenges have you faced in the last 12 years, or has it all

:18:28.:18:36.

been plain sailing? No, no, no. I wish it was true. You always have

:18:36.:18:41.

to explain your family situation, not only as adults, but also the

:18:41.:18:45.

children. If they move schools, move house, they have always got to

:18:45.:18:48.

explain in what kind of family they live. That can be difficult,

:18:48.:18:57.

sometimes. But on the other hand, it is the way it is. We live it and

:18:57.:19:03.

live with it. Have people expressed their disapproval to you? Yes,

:19:03.:19:11.

unfortunately they have. What happened? They just tell you that

:19:11.:19:15.

they don't approve of your marriage, they don't recognise the adoption

:19:15.:19:20.

of the children, if they do it to me I discuss it with them. If they

:19:20.:19:25.

do it toe my children, I'm really offended -- it to my children, I'm

:19:25.:19:28.

really offended, they didn't choose to live in our family, they have

:19:29.:19:33.

been born into it. For us, that is the main thing. Sometimes, when it

:19:33.:19:37.

comes close, like family members, that hurts, but otherwise, we're

:19:37.:19:42.

just an ordinary family. It's their problem, not our's. Perhaps you

:19:42.:19:48.

heard, speaking to the minister Francis Maude there, his view was,

:19:48.:19:52.

that in several years it might just be common place, that this will not

:19:52.:19:58.

have been seen to be such a major thing. He was suggesting through

:19:58.:20:03.

the next generation, do you see, in the 12 years since you have been

:20:03.:20:07.

marriage, a general change in attitudes in society in the

:20:07.:20:12.

netherlands? It's getting more common. It is one of the options.

:20:12.:20:15.

Sure, you have to explain, everybody asks you, are you married,

:20:15.:20:19.

and then what is the name of your husband, when you say it is my wife.

:20:19.:20:23.

They say, that is a possibility as well. In that meaning, people

:20:23.:20:28.

change, their attitudes changes. In the next generation, where more

:20:28.:20:32.

countries have opened up marriage, it makes it more common, so, yeah,

:20:32.:20:37.

I think he's right. Can you explain, from your point of view though, how

:20:37.:20:41.

you begin to explain to people how you make it, as it were, less

:20:41.:20:44.

threatening to people, perhaps, who are religious, and feel it is

:20:44.:20:51.

actually an attack on their religion? I'm not attacking their

:20:51.:20:57.

religion, it is their religion, it is not mine. That's first and for

:20:57.:21:01.

all. As I see it, I always learned from my parents that God is love.

:21:01.:21:06.

That's the only thing I do, I love my partner, and I love my children.

:21:06.:21:12.

What's wrong with that. You are also religious? Yes, we are.

:21:12.:21:16.

You are religious, and within your church, has there been an

:21:16.:21:21.

acceptance that you didn't expect, or has there not been an acceptance,

:21:21.:21:25.

how has it operated within your church? They are fine with it. It

:21:26.:21:32.

is not a problem at all. It is not an issue. Although for us it is not

:21:32.:21:38.

possible to get married in church, at the moment. It is not an issue

:21:38.:21:42.

that we are lesbians and having kids and we have a legal marriage.

:21:42.:21:50.

Thank you very much indeed. Still to come, Marine Le Pen tells

:21:50.:21:56.

us David Cameron has it right on Europe, and...Cancer Is a word that

:21:57.:22:00.

people are still reluctant to use, and I thought the more public it

:22:00.:22:04.

got the better. The cryptic crossword that left solvers lost

:22:05.:22:14.
:22:15.:22:20.

for words. Two days ago state-owned bank RBS was warned by the

:22:20.:22:24.

Chancellor that their payment for their part in the LIBOR scandal

:22:24.:22:28.

must come from bonuses from investment staff. That fine could

:22:28.:22:32.

be expected as �400 million, who will take responsibility at the

:22:32.:22:37.

bank, are heads going to role? Will heads role? A deputy head will

:22:37.:22:40.

role. The head of the investment banking, he will leave the bank, it

:22:40.:22:45.

will be confirmed tomorrow. He's also going to be denied his bonus

:22:45.:22:51.

for 2012 he will be striped of the built-up bonuses of the three years

:22:51.:22:55.

worth before, which is �4 million. It is a kind of punishment. It

:22:55.:23:01.

seems to be a sacrificial offering to many. He wasn't directly or

:23:01.:23:06.

indirectly linked to the LIBOR- fixing traders. It appears they

:23:06.:23:12.

picked an abitary point. He wasn't linked to them at all? Yes, but why

:23:12.:23:16.

should he go, why should the deputy chief executive go, not the chief

:23:16.:23:20.

executive, Steven Hester, why shouldn't the chairman Government

:23:20.:23:25.

they have decided to pick one individual. Peter Neilson, head of

:23:25.:23:29.

markets, he's staying, he was rumoured to go. One guy is going.

:23:29.:23:34.

At the heart is all about LIBOR and the rate-fixing scandal. Traders

:23:34.:23:40.

six or seven pay grades beneath him decided to make money by fixes the

:23:41.:23:48.

rate, the fines will be astronomical, Barclays �2. 9

:23:48.:23:53.

billion, and a �400 billion for Barclays, three-quarters of which

:23:53.:24:00.

will go to the other side of the lafrpbtic. After PPI, outlandish

:24:00.:24:04.

bonuses and investments that caused the financial crisis, LIBOR seemed

:24:04.:24:11.

to top them all. Colluding to set the rate of interest which sets how

:24:11.:24:16.

much people for for homes, brought the banks to an all-time low, LIBOR

:24:16.:24:21.

is a key interest rate used all over the world, and it can affect

:24:21.:24:24.

major investments, derivatives and/or mortgages. Here is how it is

:24:25.:24:29.

set. A poofl banks, based in London, tell the British bankers

:24:29.:24:36.

association, how much they have made to pour row -- British

:24:36.:24:39.

Bankers' Association, how much they have paid to borrow money from

:24:39.:24:42.

other banks. They strip out the highest and lowest numbers and

:24:42.:24:47.

reach an average figure for that day, which is published. The

:24:47.:24:50.

scandal developed when it emerged that some banks tried to move the

:24:50.:24:53.

LIBOR bank up or down to make a profit. Traders would call up

:24:54.:24:59.

colleagues, who submit the rates to the BBA, and urge them to submit an

:24:59.:25:03.

inaccurate rate on behalf of the bank, in order to skew the average

:25:03.:25:07.

figure in the preferred direction. So, if you shave one tenth of one

:25:07.:25:14.

per cent off the interest rate on a �1 billion bond, it could be worth

:25:14.:25:18.

�1 million to someone. That was unearthed by British and American

:25:18.:25:23.

regulators last summer, initially at Barclays, and subsequently at

:25:23.:25:29.

UBS, now the taxpayer-controlled RBS. It will show others banks were

:25:29.:25:34.

at it for the period of 2005-2010. Because we have no clear evidence

:25:34.:25:38.

of what the LIBOR rate would have been without the manipulation, the

:25:38.:25:43.

fines being imposed by regulators are for willful abuse of the system,

:25:43.:25:49.

rather than a specific amount earned as a result of it. Now RBS's

:25:49.:25:51.

investment banking boss will be the sacrificial offering, even though

:25:51.:25:55.

he had no direct or indirect knowledge of the rate-rigging by

:25:55.:25:59.

traders working under him. There is definite pressure, we know there is

:25:59.:26:03.

pressure from the regulator, probably from the Government

:26:03.:26:07.

directly that, with RBS, they want to see scalps, and various people

:26:07.:26:12.

fired. What I think is interesting is that the fine is being paid by

:26:12.:26:19.

the entire bonus pool of RBS staff. 95% of them did not indulge in

:26:19.:26:23.

manipulating LIBOR, and yet they are paying for the pain. I firmly

:26:23.:26:27.

believe culture is set from the top of an organisation, and if you set

:26:27.:26:33.

the culture that encourages wrongdoing, you need to leave. But

:26:33.:26:36.

I also think the individuals need to be held accountability.

:26:36.:26:46.
:26:46.:26:51.

fines for LIBOR abuse are set to be Most of the fines will go to

:26:51.:26:54.

American regulator. That prompted the Chancellor to

:26:54.:26:59.

intervene and say that fines had to be paid from RBS's bonus pool, as

:26:59.:27:04.

well as clawbacks from previously paid bonus. We all know there are

:27:04.:27:09.

LIBOR investigations on going into RB in both the UK and the US. Any

:27:09.:27:15.

UK fine will benefit the public. When it comes to RBS I amer a clear

:27:15.:27:20.

that the bill for any -- I am clear that the bill for any US fine,

:27:20.:27:22.

related to this investigation, should be paid for by the bankers

:27:22.:27:27.

and not the taxpayer. That is in marked contrast to 2011, when Mr

:27:27.:27:32.

Osbourne said that RBS would be run on a hands-off, commercial basis.

:27:32.:27:37.

When it comes to the banks where we have a shareholding in, like the

:27:37.:27:40.

Royal Bank of Scotland, look, we have run these at arm's length,

:27:40.:27:43.

that is what the last Labour Government did when they set up the

:27:43.:27:48.

arrangements, and put all the tax- payers' money in. As for RBS, it is

:27:48.:27:52.

two-thirds the way to break-even point, its shares are 50% higher

:27:52.:27:56.

than six months ago, and it is a leaner bank than before. It is on

:27:56.:28:02.

the critical list, and removing key executives may hinder rather than

:28:02.:28:07.

help the recovery. Britain is set to introduce draconian new rules

:28:07.:28:10.

for bankers who done wrong in the City of London, which could affect

:28:10.:28:13.

other financial hubs around the world. There is a danger you could

:28:13.:28:19.

throw the baby out with the bath wart e tell that to families who

:28:19.:28:22.

are potentially paying for more their mortgage today than they

:28:22.:28:27.

would do had the bankers not manipulated the LIBOR rate some

:28:27.:28:31.

years ago. The name Le Pen is synonymous with

:28:31.:28:36.

the leadership of the far right in France. Marine Le Pen took over two

:28:36.:28:40.

years ago from her father, Jean- Marie, who led the party since its

:28:40.:28:45.

form yaiing. In last month's presidential election she secured

:28:45.:28:50.

6.1 million voters, one in five of the population. I spoke to her at

:28:50.:28:53.

the European Parliament in Strasbourg earlier today. Marine Le

:28:53.:28:57.

Pen is the face of French Euro- scepticism. I asked her if she

:28:57.:29:02.

supported David Cameron's atept to renegotiation the member -- attempt

:29:02.:29:08.

to renegotiation the relationship between member states. TRANSLATION:

:29:08.:29:11.

For several years we have seen the affect of the EU on the economy, I

:29:11.:29:14.

have demanded a renegotiation of a certain number of treaties,

:29:14.:29:19.

including, of course, Schengen, in order to control immigration. Also

:29:19.:29:22.

treaties that prevent France from protecting a certain number of its

:29:22.:29:25.

economic sectors. As a result I understand Mr Cameron, in his

:29:25.:29:28.

desire for renegotiation, even if the consequences of that

:29:28.:29:31.

renegotiation wouldn't be the same for Mr Cameron's Government, and

:29:31.:29:35.

the Government that I would eventually lead.

:29:35.:29:39.

Last month David Cameron offered the UK the prospect of an in-out

:29:39.:29:44.

referendum on membership of the EU. So, is it something Le Pen and her

:29:44.:29:51.

party covet for France? TRANSLATION: I want to do the same

:29:51.:29:55.

thing as Great Britain, if I came to power tomorrow, I would decide

:29:55.:29:58.

to organise a referendum within 12 month. I would give myself 12

:29:58.:30:02.

months to negotiate the most important points with the European

:30:02.:30:05.

Union. At the end of that 12-month negotiation period, I would ask the

:30:05.:30:08.

French people to have their say, on the points that we manage to

:30:08.:30:12.

renegotiate, and on the points that the European Union refuse to

:30:12.:30:17.

negotiate. Yet, Le Pen herself is an MEP, her party doesn't sit in

:30:17.:30:22.

the same group as the Tories in Brussels, but she believes they

:30:22.:30:25.

have been influenced by a mounting Euro-scepticism here, in the form

:30:26.:30:31.

of Nigel Farage's UKIP. TRANSLATION: But Mr Cameron still

:30:31.:30:34.

believes in the European Union. I'm not ignorant of the reasons that

:30:34.:30:38.

have forced him to call for a referendum. It is quite clearly

:30:38.:30:42.

because he's under pressure from British euro-sceptics, who, we must

:30:42.:30:45.

admit, are very close to our own position on the functions of the

:30:45.:30:51.

European Union. I'm thinking, of course, of UKIP, who have developed

:30:51.:30:54.

the same, firm Euro-scepticism towards the European Union and its

:30:54.:30:59.

structures, that we ourselves defend. It is under pressure from

:30:59.:31:02.

eurorealist, such as us, UKIP in Britain, the Front National in

:31:02.:31:06.

France, the FBO in Austria, that we have managed to move the goal posts.

:31:06.:31:11.

For that, of course, I congratulate myself. I'm completely convinced

:31:11.:31:13.

that Mr Cameron would not have taken this decision, if the British

:31:13.:31:17.

people had not turned in such a significant manner towards euro-

:31:17.:31:22.

sceptic movements. The issue of immigration played a

:31:22.:31:26.

prominent role in last year's election, during a campaign which

:31:26.:31:30.

questioned the nature of French national identity. The Front

:31:30.:31:34.

National campaign for legal migration into France, to be set at

:31:34.:31:41.

10,000 people a year. TRANSLATION: Listen, I think we need to

:31:41.:31:44.

profoundly change the rules around French nationality. Because the

:31:44.:31:46.

problem with France is it automatically manufactures French

:31:46.:31:51.

people, with all the well- documented problems of integration

:31:51.:31:54.

that creates. For those foreigners legally in France, it is obvious,

:31:54.:31:58.

either there is work, and at that point they work entirelyly normally,

:31:58.:32:01.

they benefit from the social security that is associated with

:32:01.:32:06.

their job, or, they are unemployed, and after a certain period of time

:32:06.:32:10.

in unemployment, well we ask them to go back to their country of

:32:10.:32:14.

origin. We can't meet the needs of extra unemployed people at the very

:32:14.:32:18.

same time we have officially five million unemployed people in France,

:32:18.:32:22.

and in reality, a further nine million people who aren't work as

:32:22.:32:30.

much as they would like. I asked Marine Le Pen about the

:32:30.:32:35.

party's advocacy of a system of French-first for jobs, and some

:32:35.:32:38.

social services, such as accommodation? TRANSLATION: Yes,

:32:38.:32:44.

yes, we have defended for a long time now the idea of national

:32:44.:32:48.

preference, or national priority, as reverential access, not only to

:32:49.:32:52.

jobs, but also to social housing. Charity begins at home, the

:32:52.:32:56.

responsibility of the leaders of a country is first and foremost to

:32:56.:33:00.

allow their own people to be able to work. To look after their

:33:00.:33:04.

families and build up an estate. But, essentially, in France, would

:33:04.:33:09.

you not be creating, as it were, second-class citizens, and is that

:33:09.:33:15.

not of itself a rather dangerous idea? TRANSLATION: I completely

:33:15.:33:19.

disagree with you. In every international treaty, it is

:33:19.:33:25.

accepted that you can reserve preferential access for naturals in

:33:25.:33:31.

their own country. When all else is equal, a French person will have

:33:31.:33:38.

priority in a job f there is no-one of equal competence, a foreigner

:33:38.:33:43.

can apply for that job. The presence of French troops in

:33:43.:33:49.

Mali has revived the French. Mr Hollande has declared they will

:33:50.:33:53.

remain as long as necessary does she support their involvement

:33:53.:33:58.

there? TRANSLATION: We have a common history with Mali, we are

:33:58.:34:02.

historical allies, we co-operate on defence, and so stfs only natural

:34:02.:34:07.

that we responded -- it was only natural that we responded to the

:34:07.:34:10.

Mali Government's call. That shouldn't hide the fact that we got

:34:10.:34:15.

involved in Libya, not to advance the cause of democracy but Islamic

:34:15.:34:19.

fundamentalism. I was the only one, for years, who denounced this

:34:19.:34:22.

intervention in Libya, who denounced the fact that the Libyan

:34:22.:34:26.

rebels, just like their counterparts in Syria, are in

:34:26.:34:29.

reality corrupted, and at the behest of Islamic fundamentalists,

:34:29.:34:36.

and their seizure of power, notably in Libya, where they immediately

:34:36.:34:39.

imposed Sharia Law, would destablise the entire region, that

:34:39.:34:43.

is what is happening in Mali today. The Mali operation follows France's

:34:43.:34:46.

role, alongside the UK, in supporting the ref lug, which

:34:46.:34:51.

overthrew the Gaddafi regime in Libya. But, for a party that

:34:51.:34:56.

campaigns on anti-immigration, the upheaval caused by the Arab Spring

:34:56.:35:01.

was unwelcome. Would she have preferred Gaddafi to have remained

:35:01.:35:05.

in power? TRANSLATION: It would probably have been more effective,

:35:05.:35:09.

whilst using diplomatic means of putting pressure on Mr Gaddafi to

:35:09.:35:13.

introduce a not insignificant dose of democracy to his country, to

:35:13.:35:20.

leave Mr Gaddafi in place. You must remember that has deplorable and

:35:20.:35:25.

reprehensible a character Mr Gaddafi may have been in Libya,

:35:25.:35:32.

like Mr Assad in Syria, these men fought against the rise of Islamic

:35:32.:35:35.

fundamentalism, they contained it. So I asked her does that

:35:35.:35:42.

endorsement of the status quo extend to the Assad regime?

:35:42.:35:47.

TRANSLATION: I think that diplomacy, and notably Russian diplomacy has

:35:47.:35:50.

made progress, that might allow an exit from the Syrian conflict. What

:35:50.:35:55.

would be, on the other hand, utterly catastrophic, would be to

:35:55.:35:58.

help Islamic fundamentalists to brutally overthrow the Government

:35:58.:36:01.

of Bashar al-Assad. Because, once again, if they take control of

:36:01.:36:06.

Syria, they too will immediately impose sariia law, and persecute

:36:06.:36:09.

minorities who are part of the Syrian population. We can't just do

:36:09.:36:13.

whatever we want in these countries, and breaking off relations with

:36:13.:36:16.

Bashar al-Assad is senseless. On the other hand, guiding democratic

:36:16.:36:20.

change in the country would be much more effective, much more

:36:20.:36:29.

successful, and much less dangerous than what we are currently doing.

:36:29.:36:33.

Before the end of the programme, we will have tomorrow's front page.

:36:33.:36:38.

But first, paintings, books and plays, often contain clue as to the

:36:38.:36:43.

artist or writer's state. What about a crossword? A master of the

:36:43.:36:47.

art of the cryptic crossword, the Guardian's Araucaria, had something

:36:47.:36:53.

very important to tell his legions of fan. So he put it where he had

:36:53.:37:03.
:37:03.:37:05.

might his life's work, in a crossword puzzle.

:37:05.:37:09.

Ten across, Chile pine by a river has Roman database for a song, nine

:37:09.:37:15.

letters. Araucaria.

:37:15.:37:19.

To try to describe one of his puzzles, it is the wit, there is

:37:19.:37:24.

almost always a clue or a couple of clues that will make you laugh.

:37:24.:37:30.

Just with the sheer elegance of it, or the sheer wit of it. They can be

:37:30.:37:34.

witty and make you laugh. People who don't do crosswords think is

:37:35.:37:38.

most peculiar, the clue will make you laugh with delight, and

:37:38.:37:44.

Araucaria is the master of that. If your form with a crossword

:37:44.:37:50.

puzzle is a bit checkered, you may have fallen foul of the genius

:37:50.:37:59.

Araucaria, the botanical name for the monkey puzzle tree, is the nome

:37:59.:38:03.

de clu of the former vicar setting crosswords in national papers for

:38:03.:38:11.

50 years. He sees clues everywhere, is it an affliction? It would be an

:38:11.:38:15.

exaggeration to call it an affliction. It is there. You can be

:38:15.:38:20.

reading a poem, and suddenly it would occur to you that those two

:38:20.:38:27.

words together make an anagram, and then you are not appreciating the

:38:27.:38:33.

poem because you are side tracked, that happens a lot, certainly.

:38:33.:38:40.

One across, "periodical for crosswords and powder", eight

:38:40.:38:47.

letters, "magazine". # Come see the privates on parade

:38:47.:38:52.

# You'll say how proudly they're displayed

:38:52.:38:57.

Simon Russell Beale, knocking them dead in the West End in Privates on

:38:57.:39:01.

Parade, finds Araucaria's crosswords a nice change after all

:39:01.:39:09.

that cross-dressing. The company I'm in at the moment,

:39:09.:39:14.

there are four of us who regularly, through the evening, pop into this

:39:14.:39:17.

dress dressing room. When you say, through the evening, not while the

:39:17.:39:23.

show is going on? Oh yeah. Really? If there are gaps, you know. If you

:39:23.:39:30.

have five minutes, come in here and do a clue. There is a direct

:39:30.:39:33.

connection between a fan and Araucaria. I think a lot of his

:39:33.:39:39.

solvers think they know what type of man he is. I have an absolutely

:39:39.:39:44.

clear picture of the type of sense of humour he has. It is a one-way

:39:44.:39:48.

process, because I don't get to know my solvers, but they get to

:39:48.:39:54.

know me. And I don't understand quite how it works, but they do.

:39:54.:39:58.

Obviously because I have been doing it for a long time, and you build

:39:58.:40:04.

up a sort of relationship, it is an odd one.

:40:04.:40:07.

That relationship changed dramatically after Araucaria

:40:07.:40:15.

published a crossword with this master clue.

:40:15.:40:25.
:40:25.:40:25.

"Araucaria has 18 down of the 19 across, treated with 13, 15".

:40:25.:40:32.

"cancer, oesophagus, palliative care". I started it and I got

:40:32.:40:35.

cancer and oesophagus, and palliative care, and then, to be

:40:35.:40:41.

honest, I didn't want to continue it. I didn't, I thought it was an

:40:41.:40:47.

amazing thing to do. But I didn't feel comfortable continuing it

:40:47.:40:52.

really. Many others were touched too.

:40:52.:41:02.
:41:02.:41:19.

Cancer a word that people are still reluctant to use, I thought the

:41:19.:41:25.

more public the better. So it worked. But I don't expect the

:41:25.:41:29.

results to stop, it has been incredible. People have written and

:41:29.:41:33.

send me cards and letters, and e- mails. I didn't expect anything

:41:33.:41:41.

like that. What sort of things did they say to you? Different things.

:41:41.:41:47.

Nobody said I deserved it! They actually seemed, because at some

:41:47.:41:51.

point they phrased it so that it said that I was dying of cancer,

:41:51.:41:58.

which I'm not really. I mean I have Cannes, but it does not mean to say

:41:58.:42:01.

you have plenty of time to die of something else. There is no knowing

:42:01.:42:05.

how long it will take. But some people got rather upset by this,

:42:05.:42:10.

and say we can't live without you, sort of thing. People say the most

:42:10.:42:20.
:42:20.:42:21.

lovely things. I'm sorry. It has brought tears to my eyes thinking

:42:21.:42:30.

about it now. What do you think of the theatricality, if you will, of

:42:30.:42:35.

announcing your illness, in this case, through the clues of a

:42:35.:42:39.

crossword puzzle? That has a certain drama, does it? Yeah, good

:42:39.:42:49.
:42:49.:42:51.

for him. It has panache, and it is and has a self-mockery too about it,

:42:51.:43:01.
:43:01.:43:02.

I think. It is not making light of it, exactly, it is just appropriate,

:43:02.:43:12.
:43:12.:43:12.

you know. It is done with love and wit, it is done for his, what do we

:43:12.:43:18.

call ourselves? Solvers? It is done for his solvers. I think he did it

:43:18.:43:26.

with great elan. Contemplating the end of things, a

:43:26.:43:32.

lot of us, crossword buffs and others, tend to draw a blank. Not

:43:32.:43:39.

so the Reverend John Galbraith Graham. We are quite ridiculous, it

:43:39.:43:42.

is absurd that we are trying to drag it on the way we do. We waste

:43:42.:43:52.

an awful lot of time and money and anxiety giving people a hope for

:43:52.:43:58.

letting go. I don't know how the church got itself into that idea,

:43:58.:44:02.

years ago people thought heaven was more important than earth. I think

:44:02.:44:09.

so. You think so. How do you see the afterlife? I think it is utopia.

:44:09.:44:13.

Are there crosswords there? I have had this, it is a very interesting

:44:13.:44:19.

question, I don't see how there can be, I'm sure, if I do, yes I do see

:44:19.:44:22.

it, because it all transcends anything we can think about. No

:44:22.:44:32.
:44:32.:44:35.

doubt they will find some way of doing it.

:44:35.:44:39.

Steve Smith and Araucaria has kindly composed a crossword

:44:39.:44:43.

especially for Newsnight viewers, you will find it on-line on the

:44:43.:44:46.

website. Tomorrow morning's front pages now.

:44:46.:44:56.
:44:56.:45:03.

They all go with the gay marriage Chris Huhne's ex-wife there on the

:45:03.:45:13.
:45:13.:45:41.

paper, apparently wanted to nail That's all from Newsnight tonight,

:45:41.:45:48.

the Womanables first hit TV screens 40 years ago, today, surprisingly

:45:48.:45:54.

they weren't strangled at birth. We leave you with a brief visit to

:45:54.:46:04.
:46:04.:46:06.

Wimbledon Common. Womanables theme tune)

:46:06.:46:16.
:46:16.:46:18.

-- Wombles theme tune. # The Wombles of Wimbledon are we

:46:18.:46:19.

# Making good use of the things we find

:46:20.:46:29.
:46:30.:46:30.

# Things that the every day folks leave behind. No end yet to the

:46:30.:46:34.

current cold spell. Tomorrow an Arctic wind to contend with, that

:46:34.:46:38.

will make it feel bitter. Plenty of cloud to start the day. Across the

:46:38.:46:41.

north of England, showers, sleet and hill snow. Further south

:46:41.:46:44.

overnight wet weather clearing away from the south-east. Brightening up

:46:44.:46:49.

for a time in the morning. Windy across the south-east and East

:46:49.:46:53.

Anglia. Strong wind across western areas easing during the day. At

:46:53.:46:56.

this stage blowing showers across south-west England. Some

:46:56.:47:02.

winteryness on the high ground. Elsewhere we will see sunshine.

:47:02.:47:04.

Sunshine to come eventually in Northern Ireland, there will be

:47:04.:47:09.

some brightness around first thing. Still a few showers to contend with.

:47:09.:47:12.

Icey patches possible here for northern England and across

:47:12.:47:15.

Scotland. For northern Scotland snow showers here will begin to

:47:15.:47:19.

accumulate to lower level, as will the wintery showers running down

:47:19.:47:24.

eastern coastal parts of England during the day. The snow for north

:47:24.:47:27.

York moors, mainly rain, sleet and hail. Increasing sunshine. It will

:47:28.:47:34.

feel bitter in the Arctic wind, much colder than those temperatures

:47:34.:47:37.

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