15/04/2013 Newsnight


15/04/2013

The latest on the explosions at the Boston Marathon. Is British farming in decline? How Indian caste prejudice came to Britain. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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United States have tightened security on public buildings after

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three explosions tonight in Boston. Local police are saying that two

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people have been killed, and 23 wounded. We expect more information

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shortly. They happened as runners in the

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Boston Marathon were approaching the finishing line. They happened

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in full public view. But there are, as yet, few details further, and of

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course no forensic evidence. In Britain it doesn't feel that much

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like spring. That's one lamb too many. Not if you are a farmer

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salvaging what remains of your livestock. What or who is to blame

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for their tenuous grip on economic survival? This last three weeks you

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know when you are in the lambing shed in the middle of the night, I

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have thought what the hellam I doing -- hell am I doing here?

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will ask if the industry has much of a future the way it is currently

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run. How has multicultural allowed the

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bigotry of the Indian caste system be brought into Britain. When he

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called you untow touchable what does that mean?Th Is happening here,

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which I never expected. The facts are few, the fastest runners were

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well home and the stragglers still well out on the course when there

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were two explosions near the finish line of the marathon in Boston, and

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one other at the JFK Library. A short while ago Boston Police said

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three people had been killed and 23 injured. Organisers of the London

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Marathon next Sunday say they are reviewing security here, and across

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America there are already intensified precautions in place.

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But there are as yet no details of the cause of the blast. Just before

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coming on air the commissioner of Boston Police, Ed Davies spoke to

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police. At 2.50pm today there were simultaneous explosions that

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occurred along the route of the Boston Marathon near the finish

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line. These explosions occurred 50- 100 yards apart. Each scene

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resulted in multiple casualties. We have at this point in time

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determined that there has been a third incident that has occurred.

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There was an explosion that occurred at the JFK Library. So

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this is very much an on going event at this point in time. We are not

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certain that these incidents are related, we are treating them as if

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they are. We are recommending people that they stay home. That if

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they are in hotels in the I can't remember that they return to their

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rooms and that they don't go any place and congregate in large crowd.

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We want to make sure we completely stablise the situation.

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Let's speak to the BBC's North America editor in Washington.

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Is there anything else you can add to that police summary? I think it

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is obvious that they are taking it extremely seriously. Although they

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are not using the words "terrorism" or "bomb" at the moment, they are

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pointing that way. Treating it like that. The marathon organisers do

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use the word "bomb attacks", so do many other people around. The

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police have not only told people not to congregate, but they have

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shut down the cellphone network. They can be used to trigger

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explosion, the airport has been shut down. This may be out of an

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excess of caution. We don't definitely know that this was a

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deliberate attack. But certainly the police are treating it as it

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were, and there are also signs in other cities that security is being

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tightened again. It may just be a precaution.

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Something is happening in New York too isn't it? Yes, they have moved

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in security to the toll roads and things like that, along the bridges.

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At the White House they have shut off Pennsylvania Avenue in front of

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it and moved people back from that. There are signs this is being taken

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very seriously as you might expect. One of the things that says is not

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so much they know what this is, but that since 9/11 there have been

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continuous reviews of how the Homeland Security behave, and that

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things have swung into action, looking at the pictures coming from

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the marathon itself, it seemed that people were very well prepared to

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act and to go into action to help the injured and maybe you would

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expect that at a big event. Clearly there were plans that looked as

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though they worked. The other thing, I think I would say is if this does

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turn out to be terrorism, don't immediately jump to conclusions

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about who is responsible. It is more than rumour, it is chatter

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from within the Intelligence Services that suggests it might not

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be what one's minds perhaps leaps to of Islamic radicals, but that it

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could be home-grown extremists who have attacked in the past within

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America. One recalls the Oklahoma bomb which was attributed first of

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all to Islamic terrorists and turned out to be home-grown? Yes,

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and there is reports that happened on, and I'm saying reports, I

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haven't had time to check it out, that happened also on patriot day,

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which is today, the first Monday in April. That might have a special

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significance. We know that the Homeland Security have, ever since

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President Obama was elected, within on potential alert for an incident

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that came from the right, as well as their continual alert about

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potential Islamic terrorism. What is this general state of security

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alert in the United States at present? It is fairly high at

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airports. You know, the security process at airports very rigorous.

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You have to go through, as you do in Britain, as you do all over the

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world a very tight procedure. But you don't actually, but obviously

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the police are armed here. You don't see the level of policing

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that I have seen at Heathrow or in Paris train stations. That isn't

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quite as visible here always. Thank you very much indeed. Let's

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speak now to Frank Gaffney, also in Washington, he's President of the

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Centre for Security Policy there. This has come completely out of the

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blue there has it? Are you hearing me? In the sense that nobody, I'm

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hearing you loud and clear, can you hear me. Hello. Yes, please go

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ahead? I'm hearing you. What I was saying is that I think it is out of

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the blue in the sense that this specific attack at the specific

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moment in time at the specific place was, as far as I know, not

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something we had any warning about. But we have been on notice for a

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long time that America is a target. I think particularly the kinds of

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congregations of people, like this one, make it an obvious place that

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security has to be heightened. I fear that we have become rather

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complacent in recent years that there haven't been more of these

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kinds of episodes to keep our guard up, as it should be. We must be

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cautious, of course, we don't even know that it was a bombing at this

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point, do we? The police are fairly clear on that now. Yes, and I

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believe they have found several other devices that were not

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observation ploded. They presume -- -- that were not exploded. Prejidor

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sumeably have a good read on that. I don't think we are giving the

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attack the right look at the moment. It was at minimum a terrorist

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attack, while the exact perpetrator hasn't been identified as far as I

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can tell they certainly wanted to do harm to a lot of Americans. And

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for that matter others. This is an international event in Boston the

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marathon. By definition anybody who puts a bomb into a public place

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like that is a terrorist of some kind, is he not? Is there any

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suggestion as to what quarter it might have come from? Well, you do

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find people who are simply psychopaths, as opposed to

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terrorists, it is a distinction I don't particular cotton to myself.

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There has been one report out of the New York Post that a Saudi

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national is under custody in a hospital room. I don't know whether

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to credit that or not, and I don't know that anybody else has reported

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that. For the moment we have to wait for the investigation to find

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what it can about the provenance of this particular attack. You said a

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moment ago that America was on notice of possible danger. Why is

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that? Is it to do with events in the Middle East or what? I think we

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have been on notice since well before 9/11 that we are the object

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of the enmity of individuals who adhere to a doctrine they call

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sariia. We are the impediment to its imposition worldwide. I think

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they have sought, both interestingly enough through

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violent means, and through pre- violent means, to impose it on us,

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as I believe they are in the UK and other places. They are not the only

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people who wish us ill. They are not the only people who do us harm.

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They are a particularly serious threat. I think particular low

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because we have failed to attend at all really to the non-violent or

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pre-violent aspect of what the Muslim Brotherhood calls

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civilisation Jihad. We will see what evidence emerges. Thank you

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very much. There was a unilateral declaration of spring today, and a

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collective sigh of relief. The idea of Britain, what we imagine this

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country to be is deeply invested in the countryside. For the men and

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women who live there and try to make it yield them a living though,

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the promise of spring is something else. British farming is in crisis.

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It is not an original headline but what is new is this isn't a crisis

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of the kind we have had to get used to in sheep or dairy farming or

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cereal growing, it is everywhere. The sap is rising, the birds are

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singing and the lambs are gambling, and the farmers are moaning. This

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time they do have something to moan about, agriculture is in decline.

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In 1970 farming made up 2.8% of Britain's economy, today it is just

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0.7%. All farms are expected to earn less this year than last. The

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average English cereal farmer might see his income fall by 11% on last

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year. A lowland livestock farmer can expect an income fall of

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perhaps 44% this year, and hill farm, where the average profit is

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said to have been a mere �6,000, could see their income fall by over

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half. The weather has been no friend, last month snowstorms are

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said to have killed 50,000 animals, while crop farmers have also been

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affected. Potato planting for this year are predicted to be a seventh

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of what they were last year. The UK's expected to import more than

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twice the quantity of grain shipped here last year. Retailers are

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already predicting the bad weather will drive up food prices. Ten

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years ago the average weekly shop on food and non-alcoholic drinks

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was �43.50, the most recent figures show that now costs just short of

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�55 a week. Nothing in the garden is coming up rosy. We have been

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hearing the stories of three farmers, and you might some of the

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images in her report upsetting. I have farmed here all my life, I

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have never seen weather like it during April. Jack Jones family

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have been farming here on the Welsh border on the foot hill of the

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mountains since the 17th century. think there is about 15 sheep

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missing down along here. We get a lot of losses with something like

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this, it is just well pretty horrific. Every day Jack's been

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finding dead sheep. They were caught in a blizzard just as they

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were starting to lamb. So far he has found more than 70ewes and 200-

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lambs. Nature is a cruel thing. The Buzzcocks have had her eyes now. --

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the buzzards have her eyes now, luckily she only had one lamb, that

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is one lamb too many. Now we will come back later on and pick that

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one up. Nature has been unforgiving for

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much of the last year. Before the snow there was the rain. The grass

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didn't grow properly and so this flock's spring diet consists of

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winter feed, grain, which is costing Jack �500 a day. All in all

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it has been a horrendous 12 month, we can't really blame the

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politicians for the weather, but the feed costs and things like that,

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fuel costs are crippling. Really crippling. You are hoping to be

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able to pass this farm on to your grandson, if he decides, he's very

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little, if he decides to be a farmer? Yeah, yeah.Are you worried

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about what you are going to be passing on? The way farming is

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going, we have to produce more and more to keep exactly where we are.

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My grandfather could survive here on perhaps 100 sheep, I'm keeping

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over 2,000 to be in exactly the same place, really.

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I love farming and it is not a job it is a way of life. Now this last

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three weeks you know when you are in the lambing shed in the middle

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of the night, I have thought what the hell am I doing here, really.

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In Warwickshire Jim Meadows is wondering why he bothered to plant

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wheat. He has very little to show for it. With the wet weather and

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slug there is nothing there now. There is just the odd little bit of

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wheat. This is the odd little bit of wheat, most of this is blood

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grass. It is a weed. In a good year where would the wheat be now?

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way up my Wellingtons, this time of year, nice, lush crop looking

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really well. There is nothing there as you can see, just weeds.

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Jimmy's pitiful crop is hardly an isolated case, yields are so low in

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Britain that this year it is expected from going to be a net

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exporter of wheat to a net importer. We are producing something of two-

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and-a-half to 3 ,000 tonnes of wheat each other. This year what we

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planted is not going. We will only produce between 200-300 tonne of

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wheat, 10% of what we normally do. You need to watch Jill Blythe with

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her dairy herd to understand why she gave up her job in banking to

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run the family's farm in Shropshire, she didn't doing it for the money.

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By now the cows should be out to pasture, but the fields are sodden,

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so instead they are inside eating up thousands of pound worth of feed,

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and with it any profit. Do you think for many dairy farmers, dairy

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farming doesn't make an awful lot of financial sense? I'm sure that's

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true. I'm sure that's true. Why? I'm a very positive person, but the

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last six months I have seen us financially come to our knees.

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Because I'm a positive person I think there is still a future in it,

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and we will keep going to the last pound to go into the future. I'm

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sure there are a lot of people who have had enough of this and they

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still want to continue with it. is not just the weather, it is also

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the price of milk. It costs about 32p a litre to produce milk, we are

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being paid 28p, do the math, it doesn't stack up. It has to come

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from somewhere, in our case it comes from mine and my father

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assuages. We don't pay ourselves. How much are you earning an hour?

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�1.35. I have worked it out. Until ten years ago it was Jill's father

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Clifford who ran the farm. He now spend his time giving support to

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farmers who can't cope. In the late 80s and 90s we had a terrible

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situation where a lot of farmers were takinging their own lives. We

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don't want to go back to that state again. I got a call yesterday and I

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have to see a farmer today, I believe he has livestock and he

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can't afford to pay the feed to feed them because he can't loose

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them out on the grass today. That is just me. This is going to go

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right through the country surely. Strenuous, often lonely with

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unsociable hours. Farming is a strange job. So why do it? When you

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have lambs, you have a responsibility to produce food.

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With recent press on foreign food being imported into this country

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that isn't safe and has got no provenance, I think it is more

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important now than ever for British farmers to produce good-quality

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food for our British people. talk about this now is Roger Saul,

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the founder of the British designer label, Mulberry, who now owns the

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farm and food brand Sharp and Park. And the author of Panic On A Plate,

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and a member of the benevolent fund. How bad is it? Very bad, there is

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that feeling among some parts of the public that farmers are wealthy

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and you never see poor farmers, but believe me, one in four farmers is

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actually living on or below the poverty line. That's according to a

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Government statistic in 2010. job is to basically help out

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farmers in financial distress? That's right we have been around as

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a charity since 1860, what we are seeing today is really a sea change.

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People have been in need for many, many years. What has changed in our

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part of the world, the helping world, is it is working farmers who

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are coming to us now, not just the elderly and or disabled farmers we

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have helped in the past. What do you think is is the root cause of

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the problem? When I bought our farm, we are now mixed economy, it was

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dairy. It was already going bust. Effectively clearly as we came in

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we thought this is not an industry to make easy money out of. We tried

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to base it around a product we could take into a brand, a brand

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that went from farm, to food, to retail. That has worked. If I look

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at the enterprises, the wholesale and the farming, my farming is

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making a loss. If I took advice today I would put solar panelling

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in and that is the only way to sustain a profit in the farm.

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without supsidies we really would be in trouble, wouldn't we? I think

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the logic of the situation is to say an awful lot of smal small

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farmers need to get out of the business -- small farmers need to

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get out of the business. It is a hard thing to say when you see the

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hardship people are going through. We have seen it in other industries

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in past decades, mines and steel industries closing. There is a

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point at which you have to say for small farmers just not economic any

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more, and throwing more supsidies at the situation or more advantages

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would be a mistake. That is an obvious lesson, if you can't cut it

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get out of it? Well said but think of it from another point of view.

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You will find most large farmers are losing money at the same time

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at the moment. They may be able to hold over, but take the economic

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situation where the banks are not lending. The term "overdraft" has

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gone, and today there isn't cashflow to help a small or big

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farmer go forward. If the Government could ease cash, and you

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have to remember subsidies come from Europe, the Common

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Agricultural Policy. All Europeans get the same, if you say British

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farmers shouldn't have it you get an uneven playing field. Some

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people sitting at home will think they have to make their own living

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without expecting people to stick their hands in their October pocket

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to give them money, why not farm -- in their pocket to give them money,

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why not farmers? They want fair price. They also say they don't

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want subsidies? That is true, on the vts you saw you have people

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passionate about their produefplts we all need food. One of the things

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the public has to understand is we have come a long way in

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understanding the growth, if you like, of an industry, so we

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understand the transfer from food in the field to food on our plate.

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We have to think more and more about the people whom we all depend

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on for our own survival, farmers. Why doesn't the market work here?

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We have a number of ways working in the market, subsidies is one of

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them. Also barriers on scale, in the last year or two we have seen

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two very large farms, a pig and dairy farm refused planning

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permission. That is the trajectory of every previous industry you look

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at, is it goes big, gets economies of scale and improves productivity.

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There seems to be barriers to that as well. In terms it of Biotech we

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should see more of that used to improve yields 0 so the prices can

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come down and the -- yields, so the prices are come down. I suppose if

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you are a farmer you have always had to deal with the weather hadn't

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you? Yeah, but going back to the fashion business, farming margins

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are atroious -- atrocious. I came out of handbag where is I make 50-

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60%, farming is less than 5%. 90% or more of land is farmment we have

0:23:440:23:49

destroyed manufacture anything this country, it got push the abroad, I

0:23:490:23:52

suffered from that as Mulberry. We have had a crack at destroying

0:23:520:23:56

farming, we are not doing good on banking, there is a whole area of

0:23:560:23:59

what are we as a country. We have to seriously think about our

0:23:590:24:03

environment, the communities, farming is at the centre of rural

0:24:030:24:07

community. If that goes or turns into big sheds, you have got a very

0:24:070:24:12

different picture there. What is a tourist coming to see? Is it coming

0:24:120:24:17

to see a big shed of cows or cities? We are worrying about what

0:24:170:24:20

tourists see? If you think about what farmers do, they care for a

0:24:200:24:24

managed environment. They get paid for it? Not all farmers get paid

0:24:240:24:28

for it. If you also look at in fact the price we pay for food, these

0:24:280:24:36

days it is estimated that less than 11% of the household budget is

0:24:360:24:41

spent on food. We spend more on transport. 16% of household budgets

0:24:410:24:46

on transport. We spend more on food. If farmers can get people to pay

0:24:460:24:51

for more food, good luck to them? Supermarkets drive prices, my land

0:24:510:24:55

prices, I was pulling a dead lamb out of the bottom of a ewe, every

0:24:550:25:00

night I do that. That is my spare time job farming. It is a very,

0:25:000:25:03

very gruelling occupation. At the end of the day there isn't the

0:25:030:25:07

return for it. I will have to take a decision in the next two to three

0:25:070:25:12

months do I close down my flock completely, and say OK can we just

0:25:120:25:18

do beef and spelt or do we have to close beef as well. 30% less than a

0:25:180:25:21

year ago, it doesn't pay to produce them. You have pointed to part of

0:25:210:25:28

the solution, either go niche or, if you want to do commodity farming,

0:25:280:25:31

large-scale milk or cereal, you have to go big. No you don't. You

0:25:310:25:36

cannot go big. If you are looking at doing sustainable, keeping the

0:25:360:25:41

soil, you don't rip out Brazilian rainforests and put it in

0:25:410:25:44

agriculture and see it striped out because of big farming. The whole

0:25:440:25:48

idea of a sustainable environment is you look after your soil, every

0:25:480:25:51

element, from insecretary through to bird and animal and take a

0:25:510:25:54

responsibility for all of that. Nobody will take a responsibility

0:25:540:25:58

for those hedgerows and all of that part of the land that he can sis

0:25:580:26:08
0:26:080:26:11

otherwise, a farmer has to do -- a farmer has to do that as part of

0:26:110:26:15

the environment. They want satisfaction and a fair price and a

0:26:150:26:19

wage. People were passionate about digging coal? They were, but every

0:26:190:26:21

industry is going through an economic crisis at the moment. What

0:26:210:26:27

is different about farming is in fact you have the added problems of

0:26:270:26:31

the weather. Simply and briefly explain to me the lady in the film

0:26:310:26:39

talked about how it costs her 32p a pint to produce milk and she gets

0:26:390:26:42

paid 28p, what is happening there? The prices are the market. We have

0:26:420:26:45

to look at the market system to ensure farmers receive a fair price

0:26:450:26:49

for their product. That is a large, significant political debate that

0:26:490:26:54

needs to be had. She simply can't produce it cheaply enough, that the

0:26:540:26:58

problem? It is looking at the quality of the milk they produce.

0:26:580:27:02

Maybe it is the other way round, the price of the milk isn't

0:27:020:27:07

expensive enough. In the 70s we spent 30% of our income. Have you

0:27:070:27:11

tried that argument in the shops, you are not paying enough for your

0:27:110:27:16

food? I would love to say I could. I think our Sharp and Park food

0:27:160:27:20

prices we haven't raised the price for four years, but the costs have

0:27:200:27:24

gone up. We are completely driven by the pricing of the market,

0:27:240:27:27

driven by the big supermarkets, and they are driven by Government

0:27:270:27:31

policy, which is you have to offer good food price to the public.

0:27:310:27:34

other thing if I may say, everybody who is listening to the programme

0:27:340:27:37

can do something about it, buying British is a crucial part of our

0:27:370:27:44

future. We return to the explosion in

0:27:440:27:48

Boston, two people have died and Boston Police have told Newsnight

0:27:480:27:58
0:27:580:28:09

that more than 20 people are With us is Bill Bratton, a former

0:28:090:28:13

Police Commissioner in Boston, as well as New York and Los Angeles.

0:28:140:28:20

Your reaction please? I'm here in London currently and I received a

0:28:200:28:24

phone call while I was at dinner earlier this evening about the

0:28:240:28:28

event in Boston. I was immediately very concerned because I have

0:28:280:28:31

friend and relatives running in that race, and many friends on the

0:28:320:28:36

Boston police department. So the initial reaction was one of shock

0:28:360:28:40

that it would have occurred in Boston on their very special day.

0:28:410:28:45

This is from a patriotic standpoint, the day that celebrates the start

0:28:450:28:50

of the American revolution. It is the most significant event in

0:28:500:28:55

Boston each year. Personally and professionally I was both shocked

0:28:550:29:00

and concerned and over the last couple of hours have tried to learn

0:29:000:29:04

what I can about what occurred there. It does not appear that

0:29:040:29:08

anybody I know personally of injured in the event. Shocked, of

0:29:090:29:14

course, surprised that an outrage should take place in your country?

0:29:140:29:18

Certainly that we have been very fortunate since the events of 9/11

0:29:180:29:24

to have prevented many attacks that have been attempted in the United

0:29:240:29:29

States. So this one coming on this particular day I think you are

0:29:290:29:37

always surprised when they do happen. We certainly tried to take

0:29:370:29:41

as many precautions in America as possible, like you do in the United

0:29:410:29:44

States, you have an event on Wednesday and your own marathon on

0:29:440:29:48

Sunday. That will increase concerns about security with the two

0:29:480:29:52

significant events in the neck week. We have an expression in America --

0:29:520:29:56

in the next week. We have an expression in America in relation

0:29:560:30:01

to terrorism incident, it is not a matter of "if "requesting ", it is

0:30:010:30:11
0:30:110:30:13

a matter of "when" -- a matter of "if", it is a question of "when".

0:30:130:30:20

Have you any idea of the people who did this? There was an early report

0:30:200:30:24

of an explosion at the presidential like brow adjacent to Boston

0:30:240:30:28

harbour, that is reported to be an electrical fire, no relationship to

0:30:280:30:32

the events at the finish line of the Boston Marathon. I would point

0:30:320:30:36

out that the finish line of that race is the most highly-secured

0:30:360:30:42

portion of the 26-mile event. It is also within 25 yards of where the

0:30:420:30:48

media from around the world would be on a platform that goes across

0:30:480:30:53

the street at that location. If that bomb had gone off about an

0:30:530:30:57

hour, an hour-and-a-half earlier at the finish of the race when the

0:30:570:31:00

first runner came across, there would have been many more people at

0:31:000:31:04

the location of the bombings, there would have been a lot more media

0:31:040:31:07

attention, the media attention tends to fall off very quickly

0:31:070:31:11

after the first female and male runner come across the finish line.

0:31:110:31:21
0:31:210:31:24

The planning of those devices at that location quite obviously was

0:31:240:31:29

serious. It was appearing that they would want maximum worldwide

0:31:290:31:34

publicity. The event ironically seemed to be captured on not

0:31:350:31:38

professional cameras but on initially cameras of people there

0:31:380:31:43

as spectators. Thank you for joining us.

0:31:430:31:47

MPs are being asked tomorrow to make it illegal to discriminate

0:31:470:31:53

against someone because of a set of prejudices much it tells you that

0:31:540:31:57

they tell you it makes them inferior. Surely that is already

0:31:570:32:03

illegal, it is not, in the case of caste prejudice it is not. Gandhi

0:32:030:32:07

called the called untouchables the children of good. It is illegal to

0:32:070:32:11

discriminate against them in India, but not here, apparently. The

0:32:110:32:14

British Government, despite having ministers for equality, doesn't

0:32:140:32:21

seem to want to make it illegal. Our reporter has been rather

0:32:220:32:31
0:32:320:32:37

baffled. I came to this country more than 30 years ago from India,

0:32:370:32:47
0:32:470:32:48

thinking this is such a great country, open country.

0:32:480:32:54

This is my first-ever photo. This is me. He grew up in the Punjab. He

0:32:540:33:03

served in the Indian army for eight years. This is you. That is the one.

0:33:030:33:08

In 1976 he moved to Bedford and got a job as a manager in a well-known

0:33:080:33:13

public sector organisation, where he worked for 2525 years.

0:33:130:33:20

Everything was going fine until one person, one particular person moved

0:33:200:33:25

in to our office, he happened to belong to the upper caste, called

0:33:260:33:31

upper caste. As he came in he learned who I am and who is the

0:33:310:33:35

manager. I happened to be his manager. And he did not say nothing

0:33:350:33:40

directly to me, but he told the other people his fellow colleagues,

0:33:400:33:45

which are all my staff, he said to people that he is a higher caste,

0:33:450:33:51

I'm the untouchable, I'm the very, very low. If I was in India he said,

0:33:510:33:56

he's not my manager, so the word to people were telling me that I was

0:33:560:34:01

not his manager. That you are not that person's manager because you

0:34:010:34:09

are this, all the names you were telling from him. They were making

0:34:090:34:14

jokes about it they thought it was funny. I was shelled shocked and it

0:34:140:34:18

hit me like a bolt out of the blue. I did not know how to react to this,

0:34:180:34:23

I didn't know how to respond to it. But I tried to take it light-

0:34:230:34:25

heartedly. So to go along with the joke.

0:34:250:34:31

When he called you untouchable and that you, being an untouchable,

0:34:310:34:34

cannot be his manager, what hit you the most and the hardest? It is

0:34:340:34:43

happening in Britain, it is happening here. I never, never

0:34:430:34:53

expecting ...excuse me, which I... I'm sorry.

0:34:530:34:57

I never, ever expected this never, ever expected this. This was the

0:34:570:35:07
0:35:070:35:09

last thing coming into this country... Coming to this country

0:35:090:35:15

thousands of miles away that all this followed me into such a great

0:35:150:35:22

country. I worked with this individual for well over ten years.

0:35:220:35:28

And this behaviour continued all that time. Even if I complained to

0:35:290:35:33

my senior managers they wouldn't understood me. I never complained

0:35:330:35:36

to anybody that this person is calling me these names. He stayed

0:35:370:35:43

in his job until retirement. Now he campaigns against caste

0:35:430:35:46

discrimination. Although what he experienced happened over a decade

0:35:460:35:54

ago, caste prejudice continues today. In Britain it is estimated

0:35:540:36:00

there are half a million people who are dulits, those belonging to the

0:36:000:36:04

called lowest caste. A Government- commissioned report three years ago

0:36:040:36:08

found evidence that some face harassment and discrimination at

0:36:080:36:13

work, in schools and in the provision of care. Although the

0:36:130:36:18

caste system has its basis in Hinduism, it has spread to other

0:36:180:36:23

religions. Living in India, as I do, you

0:36:230:36:28

cannot help but notice the existence of the caste system. The

0:36:280:36:31

ancient social hierarchy that puts people in different categories by

0:36:310:36:35

birth. To this day those born in the called lower castes face

0:36:350:36:39

serious discrimination. The people who face the worst kind of

0:36:390:36:45

discrimination are the dulet, who were branded as "untouchables ",

0:36:450:36:51

for a long time now "untouchable" has been considered extremely

0:36:510:36:54

derrogatory term. The Indian Government has made this

0:36:540:36:58

discrimination illegal, but it doesn't mean it is stamped out.

0:36:580:37:02

Here in Britain there is no such law. I'm visiting one of the

0:37:020:37:10

temples attended by the dulet community in Bedford. This is our

0:37:100:37:15

main prayer room, we have the holy scriptures here. This is one of the

0:37:150:37:20

main paintings we have here. This man of born and brought up here,

0:37:200:37:24

he's an IT consultant for a multinational company. Later he

0:37:240:37:31

recounted what happened to him when three years ago an Indian colleague

0:37:310:37:36

questioned him about his religion at work. When I said I'm a valmiki,

0:37:370:37:40

she said I was one of the untouchables immediately. I was

0:37:400:37:44

shocked and surprised to hear that from her, someone from this day and

0:37:440:37:47

age, and in a professional environment, I didn't experience

0:37:470:37:51

anything like that before in my life. I was shocked to hear that.

0:37:510:38:00

She went on to say your good was a duku, which is a thief. I

0:38:000:38:04

questioned her comments and asked where she heard that, and she said

0:38:040:38:09

it was from the scriptures. I have a tattoo that is personal to me and

0:38:090:38:15

my family and she made a comment on that and said untouchables were

0:38:150:38:21

branded years ago with tattoo. That really got me. She was looking, our

0:38:210:38:24

team members are looking at me thinking he's getting angry and

0:38:240:38:28

what is happening with the two of them. I didn't take it own from

0:38:280:38:31

then, and we finished the coffee break and went into the meeting.

0:38:310:38:36

What made it worse is she started telling the non-Asians there that

0:38:360:38:41

it is about myself, saying he's one of the untouchables he's a lower

0:38:410:38:45

caste in my community. Making me feel small in front of other people

0:38:450:38:49

there. A couple of weeks went by and I told my manager I couldn't

0:38:490:38:53

work with this woman before, I said she upset me and made comments

0:38:530:38:56

about my community which I'm not happy about. I would like to get

0:38:560:39:00

moved off the project. My manager kind of understood where I was

0:39:000:39:03

coming from, he said there is nothing we have as company policy

0:39:030:39:06

or there is nothing in the law for this kind of situation. So there is

0:39:060:39:10

nothing much they could do. What they will do is look to move me on

0:39:100:39:14

to another project. As a company there was nothing they could do. It

0:39:140:39:22

was almost like bite my tongue and move on situation.

0:39:220:39:27

Jambe is campaigning to get the law changed. In the House of Lords

0:39:270:39:31

legislation has been proposed to make caste discrimination illegal.

0:39:310:39:36

We know in legislation on race that nothing has been more effective in

0:39:360:39:42

reducing racial prejudice than the law. It has had a most powerful

0:39:420:39:45

educative effect, and nothing could be more significant and effective

0:39:450:39:49

in reducing discrimination on the ground of caste than to have a

0:39:490:39:54

clear-cut law that discrimination in the public sphere would not be

0:39:540:39:59

tolerated. But the Government opposes legislation and favours he

0:39:590:40:04

had instead. There are other people who suffer prejudice in this

0:40:040:40:07

country because of things like their class, their background or

0:40:070:40:12

their place of birth, but we have no legislation on these matters, we

0:40:120:40:15

deal with them through other approach.

0:40:150:40:18

We are clear that no-one should suffer prejudice because of caste,

0:40:180:40:22

as I have already said, such prejudice should not be condoned

0:40:220:40:27

and never be ignored. That is why I'm pleased that the Government has

0:40:270:40:32

announced that it is taking clear action to tackle caste prejudice

0:40:320:40:38

and discrimination through an educational initiative.

0:40:380:40:46

What strikes Mo about Britain is how multicultural it is.

0:40:460:40:53

Yet how strongly unacceptable cultural attitudes are challenged

0:40:530:40:57

here must be a difficult question for society. With the children and

0:40:580:41:01

grandchildren of immigrants growing up in this country it cannot be

0:41:010:41:11
0:41:110:41:12

ignored. My grandson came from school and he said that his friend

0:41:120:41:16

said to him that he was from the highest caste in the Sikhs. Where

0:41:160:41:22

did he pick that up from? It is always the older people are telling

0:41:220:41:28

younger people. How do you explain to a young ten-year-old about the

0:41:280:41:33

caste system, he has never seen the workings of the caste system, who

0:41:330:41:40

thinks he's equal to anybody who knows to school with him. Here to

0:41:400:41:47

discuss if legislation is the right approach are my guests from the

0:41:470:41:52

anti-caste discrimination alliance, and the President of the Hindu Form

0:41:520:41:58

yum. Precisely why shouldn't be it made illegal to treat someone as

0:41:580:42:02

that first chap in particular we saw was treated. That is really

0:42:020:42:09

horrible? You may say that but you know the Government once passed the

0:42:090:42:13

legislation back in 2010 and they carried out a research. And the

0:42:130:42:19

research acknowledges there is not sufficient evidence base there.

0:42:190:42:21

What we are proposing to the Government. What more evidence do

0:42:220:42:25

you want f it happened to one person that is one too many? If you

0:42:260:42:29

look at it the other way there are many, I think, you saw the debate

0:42:290:42:33

in the House of Lords, that there are other people who have been

0:42:330:42:36

discriminate, they have made a law there. The other thing is if the

0:42:360:42:40

Hindu community has never been consulted on this, they are the

0:42:400:42:45

community who will be affected. is either wrong or right? It may be,

0:42:460:42:49

but the Government in this democratic country should be having

0:42:490:42:51

a consultation with the community that will be affected. That

0:42:520:42:57

opportunity has never been given to us Hindus. Can you help us with why

0:42:570:43:02

that approach, you think, doesn't work? We have enough evidence

0:43:020:43:09

actually, the provision in the Eqality Act, the section 95A has

0:43:090:43:12

never been brought into force. Within the then Government

0:43:120:43:16

introduced it they said if evidence, independent evidence was to come to

0:43:160:43:20

light that they would think about legislationing there. What we have

0:43:200:43:27

had is a report by a very reputable research body, an independent

0:43:270:43:30

research body called the National Institute of Economic and Social

0:43:300:43:35

Research. And they reported in December 2010 that there is

0:43:350:43:38

evidence of caste-based discrimination in the areas that

0:43:380:43:45

are covered by the Eqality Act. We have the evidence. The argument is

0:43:450:43:53

about, saving your presence, there is evidence, you have adduced it,

0:43:530:43:57

it happens. Let's accept it happens, why not make it illegal?

0:43:570:44:01

Government when the legislation of passed in 2010, when we met the

0:44:010:44:04

minister concerned they accepted that the legislation is not the way

0:44:040:44:12

forward. There is education to be carried out in that. The Government

0:44:120:44:16

stated the legislation. You want MPs to vote against any proposal to

0:44:160:44:23

make it illegal? Not as simple as that. What we have said in our

0:44:230:44:29

proposals is let us sit together and have comprehensive research

0:44:290:44:35

done on this, then let's quantify what the evidence is before us.

0:44:350:44:39

are denying it again. You have just seen and heard the evidence and

0:44:390:44:44

more examples of it, you are still denying it? The Government needs to

0:44:440:44:49

report itself is inconclusive, you read the report, 135-pages. Do you

0:44:490:44:53

think people testifying in the film were making it up? You think.That

0:44:530:44:55

is a very serious accusation to make, I advise you to be very

0:44:550:45:00

careful about that? I'm not saying they are making it up, but we have

0:45:000:45:04

done our own research and Jeremy, we have got thousands, hundreds of

0:45:040:45:08

thousands of dulets on oured side, they have written to the Government

0:45:080:45:14

that we oppose caste legislation, because the caste legislation is a

0:45:140:45:18

dying disease. The British Hindus living here don't want to identify

0:45:180:45:22

it as a caste basis. That may well be true of the vast majority, if,

0:45:220:45:26

as I say, it happens even once it is not acceptable is it? Maybe to

0:45:270:45:31

you, but to the Hindus they are not willing to accept that. You think

0:45:310:45:34

it is acceptable? We need an education process which the

0:45:340:45:38

Government is working with us, and credit to the current Government,

0:45:380:45:42

we had a project going and we were about to launch the education

0:45:420:45:45

programme to eradicate any sort of discrimination. Who do you speak on

0:45:450:45:55

behalf of? I speak on behalf of the organisation, Alliance of Hindus.

0:45:550:46:02

Your view is widespread is it? is the Indian population. You speak

0:46:020:46:07

on behalf of hundreds of thousands people, and they really think there

0:46:070:46:12

is virtually no caste discrimination? I did not say that.

0:46:120:46:17

You just accused those gentlemen gentlemen we saw in the film of

0:46:170:46:24

making it up? I did not say. That let's get everything else together.

0:46:240:46:32

That was the view of a journalist. How common is this attitude? Well I

0:46:320:46:36

am really, really surprised that you are sitting here and saying the

0:46:360:46:41

caste system doesn't exist and this isn't a problem. This is an issue

0:46:410:46:51
0:46:510:46:52

and a serious issue. The evidence in the report talked about. This is

0:46:520:46:59

the NUSA report? Yes. They outlined case studies, they were asked to go

0:46:590:47:03

out and establish if there was caste race discrimination in the UK,

0:47:030:47:08

and they established just that. We do have that. What NUSA said

0:47:080:47:12

confirms what we found in our report as well. A year before.

0:47:120:47:19

Let's get to the kuornnel of this, that is the contention that by

0:47:190:47:24

making it illegal you don't stop it, but education might stop it?

0:47:240:47:29

Education alone will not work. You can have an education approach.

0:47:290:47:34

That is just an assertion? Can you go into a work place with all the

0:47:340:47:38

guidance and a person comes in, just like the gentleman there

0:47:380:47:42

discriminated against in the work place, they can say, yes, I have

0:47:420:47:47

been discriminated on the basis of my caste. But what more can I do

0:47:470:47:52

actually beyond that? There is no legal framework. If I turned it

0:47:520:47:56

around and I were a white female in a work place and harassed by a male

0:47:560:48:04

colleague in that way, I could take that up as a gender equality issue.

0:48:040:48:08

We have gender equality issue within the Eqality Act. It is one

0:48:080:48:13

of the protected characteristics, we don't have that. You don't think

0:48:130:48:19

racial prejudice is a question of he hadcation, or gender prejudice

0:48:200:48:24

is a question for education. There was evidence that the racial

0:48:240:48:27

Eqality Act had to come in. This particular research is very flawed.

0:48:270:48:32

If you see the research acknowledges there was no hard

0:48:320:48:36

evidence of the extepblt of caste discrimination in the UK and

0:48:360:48:44

further research is needed to quantify the reality of it.

0:48:440:48:48

They are not denying it happens, just not the extent? They can't

0:48:480:48:58
0:48:580:49:00

quantify it. One thing we have to remember is Hindus coming from this

0:49:000:49:03

country have travelled from Mauritius, South Africa, and other

0:49:030:49:07

places. They left India two centuries a they can't remember the

0:49:070:49:13

caste system how can they practice. There may be pockets of Hindus who

0:49:130:49:23

come from India. It is such a minute scale it could divide the

0:49:230:49:27

community. Let's see how MPs vote. Before we go in the last few

0:49:270:49:30

minutes President Obama has given his reaction to the two explosions

0:49:300:49:35

in Boston that have killed two and injured more than 20. We still do

0:49:350:49:41

not know who did this or why. People shouldn't jump to

0:49:410:49:45

conclusions before we have the fact. Make no mistake we will get to the

0:49:450:49:53

bottom of this and find out who did this, and why they did this. Any

0:49:530:49:55

responsible individuals, any responsible groups will feel the

0:49:550:50:04

full weight of justice. Today is a holiday in Massachusetts, Patriots

0:50:040:50:10

Day, a day that celebrates the free and fiercely independent Sir it

0:50:100:50:15

this great city of Boston has reflected from the earliest days of

0:50:150:50:21

our nation. It draws people to the streets in a spirit of friend low

0:50:210:50:28

competition. Boston is tough and resilient -- friendly competition.

0:50:280:50:33

Boston is a you have to and resilient city. The American people

0:50:330:50:35

will be with Boston every single step of the way.

0:50:350:50:45
0:50:450:50:49

We are awe out of time now, more We are awe out of time now, more

0:50:490:50:51

tomorrow, until then good night. Good evening, strong winds over the

0:50:510:50:55

next 24 hours, we have got some heavy rain to the North West of

0:50:550:50:58

Scotland. Slowly Marching north through the afternoon. Staying

0:50:590:51:02

cloudy dull and damp to the south. But inbetween there will be a slice

0:51:020:51:05

of sunshine for the afternoon. A much dryer and brighter afternoon

0:51:050:51:09

for Northern Ireland, with highs of 13-1 degrees. Still some rain for

0:51:090:51:13

North West Scotland. Through the central lowlands although it is

0:51:130:51:17

cloudy rain patchy and light at this stage. Still breezy, gusty

0:51:170:51:22

winds to the east of the Pennine, along with the sunshine.

0:51:220:51:25

Temperature 14-15. Where we have got that thicker cloud further

0:51:250:51:29

south around 10-11 just about covers temperatures for the

0:51:290:51:34

afternoon. There is always the risk of patchy light rain and drizzle

0:51:340:51:39

sitting in the English Channel, Cornwall and Devon may see a little

0:51:390:51:46

brightness at times. Patchy cloud and sunny spells and temperatures

0:51:460:51:49

1-13. For Tuesday there will be sunshine around, it is to the north

0:51:500:51:54

and south of the country we have more cloud and rain. North western

0:51:540:51:58

areas will see thicker cloud arriving. To the south on Wednesday,

0:51:580:52:01

although there is cloud around, it will be a mild day with

0:52:020:52:06

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

The latest on the explosions at the Boston Marathon.

Is British farming in decline?

How Indian caste prejudice came to Britain.


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