Browse content similar to 04/06/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, proof positive claims France, that the Assad Government | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
has used nerve agent against its own citizens. | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
TRANSLATION: The conclusion from the lab is clear, there is sarin | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
gas. Well the other question is can we trace who has been using it. In | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
one case there is no doubt it is the Syrian regime and its | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
acomplises. As the Civil War deepens and the human rights abuses | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
become ever clearer, is the west going to do more than express | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
horror? We explore whether it might be time | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
to re-think the whole basis of a state cobbled together during an | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
imperial handover before most of us were even born. | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
Also tonight, after the riots in Turkey, the Deputy Prime Minister | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
says sorry for some of the police behaviour. | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
There is no gas tonight but plenty of jubilation because the | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
protestors in Taksim Square feel they might have made a breakthrough. | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
And this...Sexually Transmitted infection spreading fast. It is not | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
as if we haven't been warned, why are sexually transmitted infections | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
on the rise again. We have one guest who writes about | :01:24. | :01:34. | |
:01:34. | :01:38. | ||
sex and one who deals with the consequences of it. | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
Nerve gas has been used in Syria, the confirmation from the French | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
Government came a few hours ago. Who used it and where hasn't been | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
disclosed. But offences perpetrated against civilians and against | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
children marks a new low in a Civil War which has left much of the | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
world aghast, confused and frankly rather paralysed. Our diplomatic | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
editor is here now. First off the French evidence? Well the Foreign | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
Minister made this statement this evening that there had been several | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
occasions where they said chemical weapons had been used. One where he | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
said the evidence was strongly that the regime had done it. This is the | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
key point, the direct accusation of the regime. It has not been done by | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
the US and UK before, although they have hinted at it. This is he said | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
later on TV. TRANSLATION: conclusion from the lab is clear, | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
there is sarin gas, well the other question is can we trace who has | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
been using it. In one case there is no doubt it is the Syrian regime | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
and its acomplises. 7 He referred, as I say, to a few | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
incidents, there was some where some Le Monde journalist brought | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
back urine samples by people affected in Damascus. The evidence | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
wasn't so conclusive there. The key evidence seems to be in the north | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
in Idlib province. Interestingly this is an incident the BBC has | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
highlighted before, and has actually shown footage of what was | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
said to have happened there on that day. There was a helicopter passed | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
over and something, it could be a cannister or a rocket was seen to | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
be coming down and then people were badly affected, one died. They were | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
taken to the nearby hospital where blood samples were taken, which we | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
now know were then given to members of the French Intelligence Service | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
a little later. That seems to be the core of the French argument, | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
that this chain of evidence from the helicopter eyewitnesses, people, | :03:42. | :03:49. | |
blood sample its, is what gives them this confidence. But it has to | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
say it doesn't look like an air- tight case. They could not be the | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
same people evacuated as were where the cannister landed. On the face | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
of it, it looks like a big deal? clearly is a big deal if you feel | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
the case has been proven. We all know that President Obama made | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
these statements about red lines, warnings to the Syrian Government. | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
Then, of course, a few weeks back when these claims of nerve gas use | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
were first being made everybody said what are you going to do about | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
it. The Americans said they didn't feel there was proof positive. And | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
indeed tonight the White House spokesman said something similar, | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
despite the French claims, that they still don't feel there is | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
definitive proof of the regime doing so. Nobody, even the French | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
are claiming that it has been done on anything other than a very small | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
scale. All of the statements seem to be trying to set the terms for | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
diplomacy. The French tonight said they are not going to do anything | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
about this, despite their apparent certainty, because they want to | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
empower the called Geneva II peace conference meant to happen in the | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
coming few weeks, rather than scuppering it by taking some sort | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
of action against Syria. The Americans claim a reluctance to get | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
too heavily involved in this, and this is due to their desire to try | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
to empower the diplomacy. This is the Geneva conference about what to | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
do about Syria? It is a Geneva conference where they hope the | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
parties will get together and agree a way to end the war and hand power | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
to a transitional Government. UN also produced a report on Syria | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
today didn't it. Parts of it made horrible reading, I thought? | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
independent panel of investigators of human rights abuses on Syria | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
made one of its periodic reports, on the chemicals they say they | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
think both sides have used chemicals as weapons. Rather than | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
chemical weapons, if you follow the distinction. They had shocking | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
things about human rights abuses. They talked about a 12-year-old boy | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
being asked by the rebels to behead a captured soldier. They talked | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
about numerous instances of child soldiers on the rebel side. Overall | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
they think the greater number of abuses were perpetrated by the | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
regime. They are pushing for this Geneva II process. | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
With us now is Vali Nasr, a member of the foreign advisory board for | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
the state department, a Dean of the John Hopkins School of Advanced | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
studies. How serious do you think this French proof of chemical | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
weapons is? It is a way to raise the pressure on the Assad regime | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
and underscore the gravity of the conflict. It is also designed to | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
make sure that the United Nations report does not give a sense that | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
blame for use of the chemicals is equally divided on both sides. This | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
is largely a terrain that has been previously covered, in other words | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
accusations have been made against the Syrian regime. Whether the | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
United States or the international community is not ready or willing | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
to see this as definitive proof and act according to the red lines it | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
had laid down. What would your advice be to John Kerry, I know you | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
speak to him frequent on these matters, what would your advice to | :07:15. | :07:24. | |
him be? He has made a -- an of for the to push for a solution to the | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
conflict. There is the Geneva conference scheduled. But actually | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
the framework, the basis for it hasn't been done properly. We are | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
going to this conflict with Assad and his Russian backers, Hezbollah | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
and Iran, actually having the upper hand having scored a very clear | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
underground military Vicry in the past two weeks. -- victory in the | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
past two week. We don't have a clear co-ordinated position between | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
the United States, Europe and the Arab allies. Also there is nothing | :07:51. | :08:00. | |
on the table to hint to the Russians and the Assad regime that | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
consequences to failure at the conference and something would | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
happen if they were not to deliver at the conference. We are going | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
into diplomacy without giving it teeth or a big stick to make it | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
succeed. You seem to be suggesting it is very unlikely it will | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
succeed? It will not succeed, largely because there is no | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
incentive for the Russians or Assad to compromise at this point. They | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
are winning on the ground. The rebels have got a setback and there | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
is no consequences for not cutting a deal. I think we will go through | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
the Geneva II process, it will not be productive. I think that coming | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
out of that we have to basically sit down and think about where do | :08:37. | :08:44. | |
we go from there. I think the path has to be to stop Assad's March on | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
the ground by arming the rebels, giving greater capability to hold | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
their positions, also to come up with both incentives and | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
punishments for Russia and Syria if they don't engage in the diplomatic | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
process effectively. I think a certain amount of time has to be | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
invested to get the opposition in a position where it would be much | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
more credible. To create greater harmony between the policies of | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Europe and the United States going forward. | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
Thank you very much we will get back to you in a moment or two. In | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
the meantime we are going to talk about something else. | :09:21. | :09:30. | |
Coming up : Why are diseases like chlamydia and | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
gonorrhoea proving so difficult to beat? | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
Let's continue exploring what is happening in Syria. Because the | :09:37. | :09:44. | |
uprising is often understood as being wholly sectarian. The ma | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
Sunni Muslim population throwing -- majority Sunni population throwing | :09:48. | :09:58. | |
off the Alawite Assad regime. There is a long and complex history, here | :09:58. | :10:08. | |
:10:08. | :10:08. | ||
is Mark Urban's analysis. Syria has for centuries been a | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
country of complex relationships between sects, cities and tribes. | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
Often they co-existed peacefully. But at times collided with extreme | :10:18. | :10:28. | |
:10:28. | :10:30. | ||
violence. The ottoman Turk ruled for centuries, offering -- the | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
ottoman Turk ruled for centuries, offering peace for taxes. Many | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
people ruled on behalf of the ottoman state. It worked well | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
giving the religious communities a say over the sensitive issues of | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
their personal status, how they got married, how they conducted their | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
own laws, but made sure the tax went to the central Government's | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
treasures. That deal between order and tax flow was the heart of the | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
ottoman structure. A traveller in the 19th century noted three tiers | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
of society, mainstream, Sunni Islamists uppermost, other groups, | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
Christians and Jews, and then at the bottom members of the Islamic | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
sects considered her particulars, including the Shia and Alawites. | :11:20. | :11:30. | |
:11:30. | :11:39. | ||
Both persecuted they worshiped in The Ottoman say the was by | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
definition a Sunni state and did not recognise any of the other | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
sects as Muslim. They were either Muslim or not. The ones recognised | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
as non-Muslim were Christians and Jews. In a way the Christians and | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
the Jews were better off than the small minority sects. | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
The uglyist rivalries were often those within particular religions. | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
The same traveller found poisonous relations between rival Catholic | :12:14. | :12:24. | |
:12:24. | :12:43. | ||
The Ottoman Turk took Syria in the early 16th century. But it had long | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
been a meeting point of different cultures. The Ottoman system of | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
rule of more recent centuries was geared to raising taxes and it was | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
tolerant, indeed non-Muslims paid higher taxes. It left people with | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
an intense sense of their own sect or ethnicity. That was to become a | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
problem as the Ottoman system frayed. | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
Under pressure from Christian countries in the late 1850s the | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
Ottomans introduced measures aimed at giving equality to citizens. But | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
this produced a backlash and terrible anti-Christian riots in | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
Damascus in 1860. They were setting in motion tensions and troubles in | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
the very balance of the social fabric of Damascus that burst into | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
the most horrific violence in the summer of 1860 when Sunni Muslim | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
crowds campaigned through the streets of the Christian quarters, | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
massacring, looting, burning down houses and churches and monastries. | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
The images, the photographs from the time show city quarters really | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
that looked much like Dresden after the bombing of the Second World War. | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
It was a moment of communal trauma that was to really mark Damascus in | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
the mid-19th century. By the early 20th century one | :14:14. | :14:24. | |
:14:24. | :14:43. | ||
The empire of France covers many continents and many climates. | :14:43. | :14:53. | |
:14:53. | :14:54. | ||
Ottoman rule ended in 1919 when the British conquered the area, they | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
handed to the French who faced challenges particularly from the | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
Sunni majority. So the French favoured minorities such as the | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
Alawites, Christians and Druzes in their security forces. The enemy | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
for the French was the Sunni majority population and the idea of | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
nationalism. And one of the first things the French tried to do was | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
to break up the greater Syria they inhabited to create a Christian | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
state in Lebanon. Within the mandate of Syria itself, their | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
firgs vision was to create a mini- state for the all -- first vision | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
was to create a mini-state for the Alawites and the Druzes, and | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
territory around Damascus and Aleppo, and through divided rule | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
they could create a a different Syria they could dominate. | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
early post-mandate Governments were sur planted in 1963, military rule | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
by members of the Ba'ath party. This group pan-Arab and secular | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
served as an escalator for the minorities. It already gained a toe | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
hold under the French. The loser of one power struggle among them | :15:59. | :16:09. | |
:16:09. | :16:18. | ||
Ahmed Saad's father emerged triumphant from these power | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
struggles to become Syria's first Alawite President. The politic of | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
this time were complex. He faced down Alawite rivals within the | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
party and as well as having some Sunnis and others on his side. | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
Ba'ath party ideology is a very home mojising and strong | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
nationalist -- home mojising and strong nationalist ideology which | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
breaks down the barriers of difference and gives minorities | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
opportunities to get access to power. Some of these minorities | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
were also encouraged in the colonial period to enter the army. | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
That is how the Alawites in Syria were very prominent in the army. | :17:03. | :17:11. | |
How the Assad clan and network came to prevent in the Ba'ath Party. | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
But little by little the religious forces polarising across the Middle | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
East were making themselves felt. In 1982 Sunnis in the Syrian city | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
of Hama staged a rising that was brutally crushed. A kind of | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
stability was reimposed and it lasted until the outbreak of the | :17:30. | :17:40. | |
current revolution two years ago. With that game brutal repression, | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
inflammatory rhetoric from some cleric, and an influx of foreign | :17:44. | :17:53. | |
fighters on both sides. Memories of the Ba'athist hey day or | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
cosmopolitan city life under the Ottomans caused many Syrians to | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
insist it is not a sectarian society and this is not a sectarian | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
war. But feelings of identity, of Sunni, Shia, Alawite or Christian | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
are still important for much of the population. And are being played | :18:11. | :18:21. | |
upon in this conflict. To this day the President of Syria will invoke, | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
not his community, but his loyalty to the Syrian nation as what is | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
triefg him in fighting the -- driving him in fighting the | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
opposition. He is acting never in the interest of secretary and | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
community, but to preserve the Syrian state and the people from | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
the threat they face. They are still using that language and they | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
still refuse to accept that secretary has any basis in the | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
fighting going on in Syria today. As Syria's neighbours weigh in they | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
are feeding sectarianism. The saud des and Qatar backing the Sunnis, | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
Hezbollah on the side of Assad. On the ground, their slogan is | :19:04. | :19:11. | |
"find fertile soil". These Sunni fighters mock Hezbollah, party of | :19:11. | :19:19. | |
good, as the party of Satan. -- party of God as the party of Satan. | :19:19. | :19:29. | |
And the rhetoric of Jihad is being spoken of too. Millions have been | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
displaced and the country's delicate tapsity of settlements has | :19:34. | :19:44. | |
:19:44. | :19:46. | ||
been ripped apart. We are ajoined by our guests, and one a cousin of | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
Ahmed Saad. His father was widely held responsible for the repression | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
of Hama where it was reported around 20,000 people died. Who do | :19:55. | :20:02. | |
you speak for tonight? For the organisation Democracy and Freedom | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
in Syria. How big is that?We have lots of supporters in Syria. I | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
started the organisation before the Arab Spring, I have been | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
campaigning for democracy for many years. How many members?We have | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
millions of supporters in Syria. Millions, all registered | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
supporters? Sorry.All register supporters? No, we know the | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
supporters have been there for years. Is it your conviction that | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
Syria can survive without collapsing into sectarianism? | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
course, if people, if the international community really | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
wants it and put their efforts together. Trying to you know find a | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
solution, a peaceful solution to the conflict it is possible. Isn't | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
that the problem that the thing was created by the international | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
community and is now being played with by the international community, | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
whether it is the west or Iran or whoever? Actually it is the will of | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
the Syrian people isn't it that's at stake here? Exactly, as we have | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
seen you know the uprise anything Syria has started peacefully. -- | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
uprising has been started peacefully in Syria, and hijacked | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
by the Islamists and played by both sides. This is where we are today, | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
we have 100,000 dead people and 1.5 million refugees. We have to find a | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
solution right away. A peaceful solution is the only way out of | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
this conflict. If not we are going to find ourselves in a regional war, | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
all-out regional war. We have already seen what is going on in | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
Lebanon and Iraq. We have seen the latest attack by Israel on Syria. | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
This is very dangerous. Do you think that Syria is going to emerge | :21:39. | :21:48. | |
from this conflict as one country still? Yes, potentially it could. | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
It doesn't mean it will emerge as a happy country where everybody | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
agrees with the outcome. We saw that happen in Iraq as well. It was | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
a vicious sectarian Civil War but in the end it held together. | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
Unfortunately right now Syria is in a place where you have a very | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
serious division that puts one side of the population against the other. | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
There is a sense of Syrian nationalism on both sides, both | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
sides believe they represent Siria. Nobody is a seperatist and don't | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
want to break out of Syria. Those are positive things. But if the | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
fighting continues, more blood is shed and the divisions become | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
deeper. You might at some point have the tipping point where this | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
might become something different. Can you see any circumstances under | :22:36. | :22:44. | |
which Ahmed Saad, he's your uncle. -- Bashar Assad, he's your uncle? | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
My cousin. Do you think there are circumstances he could go without | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
shedding more blood? If he could go he would have gone at the beginning, | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
now it is very difficult. He will not go, he wouldn't be allowed to | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
leave even if he wanted to. What do you mean he wouldn't be allowed to? | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
Bashar al-Assad is not his father, he inherited that regime and didn't | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
build it. The ones him are the ones sustaining the Ba'ath party and the | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
Secret Services and the military, they are in control. A lot of | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
people think it is a one-man show. I have always said it Bashar will | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
always be held responsible because he's the head of the army and | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
President of the Republic and head of the bait party. Behind the | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
scenes the people -- Ba'ath Party, behind the scenes are the people in | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
the military and the others in the Ba'ath Party. When you look at the | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
troubled sectarian history of Syria, you do understand why the Assad | :23:43. | :23:51. | |
regime was so vigorously and violently secular, don't you? | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
Secularism is a facade under which you promote a sectarian regime. | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
Just because you have secularism put out there doesn't mean that | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
people practice it. Sectarianism is not about actually practising | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
religion, it is about when your identity becomes a marker and | :24:08. | :24:15. | |
decides your access to power and access to wealth. As we saw in Iraq, | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
we saw in Syria, there is a division of power in the country | :24:18. | :24:25. | |
that has very much become aligned with a sectarian identity. As the | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
protestors try to change the regime there will be winners and there | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
will be losers. A chunk of the population would see their share of | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
power diminish, and the other chunk of the population on the outside is | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
hopeful it will gain. That process in the Middle East has not been | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
peaceful. The sharing and transfer of power has been con inflicting, | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
that is what is happening in Syria. It is not about Assad. We saw in | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
Iraq that we arrested and executed Saddam, the Sunnis continued to | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
fight. They were not fighting for Saddam, they were fighting for | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
their own power and privilege and fear of retribution by the Shi'ites. | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
You have the same process here as well. You have already indicated | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
you think it Geneva peace conference isn't going to go | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
anywhere. In the meantime, you have got all these external actors like | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
Iran, the gulf state, all manipulating particular factions | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
within Syria, what will happen? is not just that they are | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
manipulating this out of sport. They have vital things at stake in | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
Syria. Depending on which side wins, it will depend on their only | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
internal position and their position in the area. They are | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
fight to go protect themselves. There is potential this will spread | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
beyond Syria before long into Lebanon and Iraq. It will affect | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
the balance of power in the Persian Gulf. As Syria becomes more violent, | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
bloody, chemical weapons could be used. It could lead to a very | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
different language of politics in the region which would not be | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
beneficial to its long running stability or to global security for | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
that matter. Thank you very much both of you | :26:05. | :26:13. | |
indeed. The usual perpetrators of nods and | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
winks in Downing Street were letting it be known today that the | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
Government is going to try to bring in law to make it easier for voters | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
to hold their MPs to account. It has been an urgent priority for | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
years now. That is urgent as in "one fine day" if some other member | :26:30. | :26:37. | |
of this august body gets caught with its trousers down or the hand | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
in the sweetie jar. We're a bit baffled. | :26:42. | :26:49. | |
It is one of those strange coincidences, in 1990 Arnold | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
Schwarzenegger starred in a film called Total Recall, and 13 years | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
later the Governor of California was recalled and Arnie was elected | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
in his place. Perhaps they were reacting to a subliminal link in | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
his words, that, sadly, must be a question for another day. The story | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
for today is the Government has announced it will bring forward its | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
recall legislation next year. The initial enthusiasm for the idea | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
came during the expenses scandal. Rekindled in recent days by the | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
lobbying scandal that has so gripped the head lions. Victory for | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
people power, for those -- Headlines. Victory for people power, | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
for those who believe they should have more control over their | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
representatives. Except it is not clear the Government's version of | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
recall will do any such things. Under the Government's plans as an | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
MP I could join the BNP tomorrow, go on holiday for two years or | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
decide not to turn up in parliament or say to hell with my | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
constituencies, and I wouldn't qualify for recall under the | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
Government's criteria. What people regard as underperformance by an MP | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
this committee would overlook. That is a big point to make. Let's look | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
at how recall works in other parts of the world, like California, | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
let's call it the Total Recall Model. It is initiated by the | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
electorate. There is a petition by them which if it reaches the | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
required total of signatures it triggers a yes or no referendum on | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
whether the politician should lose his or her job. That emphatically | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
is not what the Government is proposing in this country. Their | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
process would not be initiated by the electorate, nor would it | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
feature a "back me or sack me" recall or not straight yes or no | :28:41. | :28:51. | |
:28:51. | :28:52. | ||
referendum. What are they proposing? Let's call this skup not | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
quit -- the not quite total recall agenda. Anyone going to prison more | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
than a year alreadyamically loses their seat, or it would be | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
triggered by a resolution of the House of Commons in practice that | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
would mean a resolution by the Standards Committee of MPs who | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
would be making a recommendation. That would striinger a petition in | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
the MP -- trigger a petition in the member's constituency. It would | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
trigger a straight by-election. Zac Goldsmith believes this version of | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
recall is not worthy of the name. If the Government mechanism goes | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
ahead we will see an enormous amount of power being handed to the | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
whips. These committees are made up of people put there by the whips. | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
Independent MPs, maverick MPs won't stand a chance under the Government | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
mechanism. It won't empower the voter but the political hierarchies, | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
the parties. What is the response to these criticisms? As luck would | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
have it, today the Deputy Prime Minister was explaining Zac | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
Goldsmith in the Commons, just why in his view, recall, as it is | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
understood in other countries, wouldn't be right for the UK. | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
we are trying to do and it will be reflected in the final proposals is | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
strike a balance. Is give voters, the public, a backstop reassurance | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
that if someone commits serious wrongdoing and they are not held to | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
account they can be held to account by the public. I equally think we | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
shouldn't introduce a prososal that won a kangaroo court and a | :30:27. | :30:35. | |
political free for all for people to take pot shots at each other. | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
The issue with Californian recall system would it would become the | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
weapon of all minorities. The scope is enormous, there are groups well | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
organised and well sorted they would constantly be trying to | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
remove the member of parliament elected by a large percentage of | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
the electorate within that constituency. Yet this minority of | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
people would be likely it say no, we want them out and our own | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
candidate in. If that is the case wouldn't it have been better for | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
the Government not to have prom my any sort of recall? Personally I | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
think it would, actually. Some believe by promising recall, but | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
actually not allowing voters to initiate the process, well the | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
Government could end up causing more of the disillusion and | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
disconnect with politics that the measure was supposed to address in | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
the first place. Well now we have the report into the trouble in | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
Turkey all wrong, the Turkish Deputy Prime Minister thinks much | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
of the news coverage of the riots there has been overblown and | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
distorted. But he conceded that the Istanbul police force had been out | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
of order and overreacted to early protests which is what set off the | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
unrest. He said the crackdown was wrong and unjust. The protests | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
continued in ernest tonight as the Government tried to get talks going. | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
We are ajoined from isstan pull by Paul Mason. Does it look like it is | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
moving towards compromise? There is fighting going on in two towns in | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
eastern Turkey, including Antakya where a 22-year-old demonstrator | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
was shot dead with a gas cannister to the had had. Here, well you | :32:20. | :32:27. | |
can't really see it behind me but there is jubilation in the park. | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
Probably 10-30,000 people an hour ago when I was down there. They | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
think they have made a breakthrough with the climb-down by the Deputy | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
Prime Minister and the acknowledgement that the initial | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
issue was just and the police overreacted. There is no doubt the | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
Deputy Prime Minister has done that, because he as up against, as you | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
can see in the pictures a large part of the urban middle-class in | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
the city. No Government can survive with its legitimacy intact if it | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
goes up against such a wide cross section of the population. Whether | :33:01. | :33:09. | |
this leads to anything bigger politically is a different question. | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
The people here are resigned to the fact that they are a minority | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
politically. You have spent much of the day with people who belong to | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
the majority in rural Turkey. Is that right? We drove about as far | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
as you can get in a single day from Istanbul and went to the village | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
where there were devout Muslims, a place where the man can't talk to a | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
woman in the street, they bear veils. The people there are strong | :33:36. | :33:44. | |
supporters are -- of the Government. They take their cue from the | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
popular media, they are outraged by those drink anything a mosque that | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
had been turned into a hospital. That has been rebutted by the Imam | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
of the mosque. They don't see that on social media. There were calls | :33:58. | :34:04. | |
for a massive breakdown, the mass base of the AK Party reflects what | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
the deputy PM has done, they know they have to live in the same | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
country as the largely secular urban educated people behind me. | :34:13. | :34:20. | |
What are the protests achieving do you think? They haven't achieved | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
victory yet. I spoke to people down there in the park. One said they | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
were at fault, we ignored politics for too long, we have spoken up now. | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
They said the half of society that is not Islamist is getting together | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
to put forward an agenda that isn't the old agenda of the military, the | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
old military crackdowns and the secular military state that used to | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
run Turkey. There is something new happening here. This is what we saw | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
in Tahrir Square, it is what we saw in the Occupy Movement, it is the | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
urban educated middle-class deciding their agenda. Whatever | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
kind of Government we see them up against in the world, they go on | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
the streets and get some of it achieved. All kicking off | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
everywhere, isn't it, thank you. Safe sex, everyone's at it, aren't | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
they? No, figures are expected to be relyed tomorrow showing | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
significant increases in all sorts of sexually transmitted diseases. | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
It seems whilst everyone has become increasingly aware of the dangers | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
of HIV and AIDS they have forgotten about other infections around for | :35:27. | :35:36. | |
much longer, and whose effects are, it seems, increase league virulant. | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
-- increasingly virulant. Numbers of sexual infections from | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
gonorrhoea to genital warts have been on the rise year on year. Some | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
of it is down to us getting better at testing and diagnosing. But for | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
public health experts the numbers show too many people are putting | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
themselves at risk. So what's going wrong? Last year in particular we | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
saw a 25% increase in gonorrhoea rates, and we think that gonorrhoea | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
will be well up again this year. We expect to see rises in most of the | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
other areas. The rises are particularly in young people of all | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
sexualities and in gay men of all ages. There are definitely some | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
groups more at risk of poor sexual health than others. Gonorrhoea is | :36:23. | :36:30. | |
the second most common sexually transmitted disease. New cases rose | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
to 21,000 jumping 2% in one year last year. Over a third of the | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
cases were men who had sex with men, up from around a quarter in 2010. | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
The big concern is untreatable gonorrhoea. Infections that resist | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
antibiotics. Doctors are having to think of new approaches for the | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
future. Possibly even using more than one antibiotic at a time. This | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
is controversial. At the moment every few years we are changing to | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
a stronger dose or a new type of antibiotic. In recent years we have | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
got to the end of that line in terms of the antibiotics we are | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
using. We are seeing reduced susceptibility when we test the | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
gonorrhoea we grow in the laboratory. We are not seeing main | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
treatment failures, but if the past is anything to go by we will see | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
treatment failures in the future. The message should be a familiar | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
one, that using condoms and going for regular check-ups helps bring | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
down infections and catches them early enough to to not go on to | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
threaten fertility. It is young people under the age of 25 who are | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
experiencing the highest rates of sexual infection. The message about | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
safer sex is not getting through. Many people think sexual infections | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
happen to somebody else. Experts fear an element of complacency, | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
they also say there needs to be a change in emphasis in sex education. | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
Young people aged 24 and under are having half the sex out there, and | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
half of the partner exchange. We need to do better and relationships | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
education with young people. They need to learn not how to put a | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
condom on the banana, but how to have better relationships and how | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
to say I'm not doing that unless you wear a condom and I'm not doing | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
it because I'm not ready yet. Government ads in the past have | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
been pretty full on. Campaigners say what is needed now is not so | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
much this broad brush approach, but local low- based community serves | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
that target clubs, pubs and football matches. This all costs | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
money at a time when local authority budgets are under | :38:40. | :38:49. | |
increasing pressure. Here with us now is my guests. | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
A health service provider and Helen Croydon who described her own | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
sexual escapades with older men and others in her book Sugar Daddy | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
Diaries. Does what was talked about in this report tally with your | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
experience in the clinics? Yes very much so. I think you know I haven't | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
seen the figures coming out tomorrow but I wouldn't be at all | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
surprised if they didn't show an increase. Some of that I would say | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
is down to real efforts to get people diagnosed and tested. So | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
that the national chlamydia screening programme, for example, | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
has been really pushing hard to diagnose all of those young people. | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
One in nine of have chlamydia. may not be that it is increasing | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
but many people are reporting it? It might be people are diagnosing | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
it. With something like clam mid-ia, it is a fairly new programme, | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
running for two or three years now. You have to test about a third of | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
the population that you are targeting to drive down underlying | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
prevalence. They are not there yet. You would see the numbers come up | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
before they start to come down. I'm not being complacent in saying | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
there is no unsafe sex happening. Clearly from that report, | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
anecdotally at least, Helen tell us about this, people's behaviour has | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
changed hasn't it? I don't think it has, actually. I certainly think we | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
are exposed to more sex in the media. The Internet and I certainly | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
think that people are being exposed to it younger. I don't think we're | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
doing it any more than we ever have. We are quite a promiscuous race, | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
you only have to look fill landering through history of | :40:28. | :40:37. | |
Monarchs through history, free love in the 1960s. Sexual behaviour, but | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
sexual hygiene and etiquette, the use of condoms or barrier methods | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
of contraception, protective methods of contraception seems to | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
be changing? I can't speak for more people are using more contra | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
sefptives now. Perhaps they are, if that is the case then definitely we | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
need to do more to get the message through. I don't think the problem | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
lies in the fact that people are having more sex or are more exposed | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
to sex, that has always been the case. It definitely appears the | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
message isn't getting through, we have to look at why. When I grew up, | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
I'm in my 30s now, I know that any sexual encounters I have ever had | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
with people my own age the he have idea that you wouldn't use a condom | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
with a new partner is pretty much unheard of. My age group really | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
have that message drummed in hard. It seems to me when you get to the | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
older generation, I know that from experiences of writing my book | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
about dating older men. There seems to be more people, more men that | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
try and dodge condoms. You said when you were with an older man he | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
didn't want to wear a condom? happened a couple of times. It | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
appears to be happening with younger people as well. You think | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
why is that safe message that got through to my generation and didn't | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
in older generations. What is your they arey from talking to people? | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
think, I hear a variety of things. The big missing piece in the jigsaw | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
is not making all young people have access to good relationships and | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
sex education. So that they are growing up and they understand | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
about having healthy relationships and respect for themselves and | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
their partners and everybody else. That is a big piece of the jigsaw | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
missing. I think also people don't realise that half a million STIs | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
diagnosed, the infections doiing nosed, you are far more likely to | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
bump -- diagnosed, you are far more likely to bump into an infection | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
now if you don't wear condoms that 20 years ago. People in your line | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
of work always talk about people learning to respect themselves and | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
the rest of it. The fact is one night stands are always going to | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
happen, you say there is a bigger pool of potential infection out | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
there than there was. If people are behaving differently and not using | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
condoms, as Helen said they used to take it as a matter of course you | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
would wear a condom, if they are not doing that now what is | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
happening. Why are they behaving like that? I think it is really | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
great. The campaign you were showing earlier, the Government | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
campaign that ran a few years ago it is really good to see those | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
campaigns. That one didn't mention HIV, which you could say is a | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
misopportunity. You have to keep it up. It is no good having the | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
Tombstone campaign, it was 20 years ago, there are a lot of parents out | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
there with teenage children with different perspectives. In those | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
days that campaign you talked about, everybody remembers it, the | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
tombstone falling over and there is a great menace out there, they | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
thought they would die if they got HIV/AIDS. | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
Now things are slightly different. But is it that they don't, because | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
they thought they could have died, they have forgotten about other | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
infections? It is interesting to looking at what happened to | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
infections after that campaign aired. The rates had been steadily | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
rising as they do. That campaign aired and they dropped off a cliff. | :44:05. | :44:12. | |
But they slowly but surely rose again because you can't keep people | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
scared for long periods of time and you shouldn't be. What do you | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
think? I would like men to be willing to wear condoms more full | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
stop. Condoms are the only ones that stops sexually transmitted | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
diseases. It is the only contraception that is detremental, | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
it is alleged, to men's pleasure. All other forms of contraception | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
involves the woman making a sacrifice. Lots of women have a | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
reaction to hormonal contraception. Even in long-term relationships | :44:46. | :44:55. | |
there seems to be a reluctance for men to use condoms full stop. | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
Because they say it affects their pleasure. That is why I think it is | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
really important that we get the message across to women to put | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
their foot down. You talk about sleeping with older men and they | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
were the ones reluctant to use a condom. Maybe they were older men | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
who spent a long married life that started perhaps before the whole | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
AIDS scare and they never got into the habit of it? The last time they | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
used a condom was before they were improved and they were probably | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
right in thinking that it did disrupt their sexual pleasure. But | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
condoms are a lot more than that. I do think as well as educating women | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
and men to use condom, we also need to educate women particularly to be | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
a bit more assertive, particularly because a lot of younger women do | :45:44. | :45:50. | |
sleep with slightly older, even older boyfriends. And they may get | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
a little bit easily led. We just have to let them know it is OK to | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
say no and say go to the sexual health clinic, I'm not sleeping | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
with you until you do. I think a lot of women are scared of doing | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
that. Given how rigorous you are about | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
other things you put in your body it is rather extraordinary, lack of | :46:10. | :46:18. | |
as if todayousness? I think -- as if todayousness I think what we | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
have to do is go to the clinic, if you are going for contraceptives | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
let's offer a range of STI tests as well, so people aren't expected to | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
make two or three different appointments to get different | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
appointments, pull it all together. That is all we have time for | :46:37. | :46:47. | |
:46:47. | :46:51. | ||
That is all we have time for tonight. See you tomorrow. | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
Hello again, cloud from the North Sea now. For many central and | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
eastern areas tomorrow starts off grey but the low cloud will thin | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
and lift and get burned back towards the coastal areas. Sunny | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
spells developing widely. One or two showers for Northern Ireland. | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
Belfast dry because of an easterly breeze, the showers to the western | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
side of Northern Ireland. A few more showers in Scotland. Most over | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
the hills and mountains, it may stay dry through the central | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
lowlands. Across England and Wales it will be cooler where the cloud | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
persists around the North Sea coasts from Norfolk northwards. The | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
wind won't be as strong today. While many places will enjoy a good | :47:32. | :47:37. |