04/06/2013 Newsnight


04/06/2013

Analysis of stories behind the headlines. Including is Syria using sarin, should corrupt MPs be expelled from Parliament and why sexual disease is on the rise. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Tonight, proof positive claims France, that the Assad Government

:00:15.:00:20.

has used nerve agent against its own citizens.

:00:20.:00:24.

TRANSLATION: The conclusion from the lab is clear, there is sarin

:00:24.:00:28.

gas. Well the other question is can we trace who has been using it. In

:00:28.:00:34.

one case there is no doubt it is the Syrian regime and its

:00:34.:00:38.

acomplises. As the Civil War deepens and the human rights abuses

:00:38.:00:43.

become ever clearer, is the west going to do more than express

:00:43.:00:46.

horror? We explore whether it might be time

:00:46.:00:50.

to re-think the whole basis of a state cobbled together during an

:00:50.:00:55.

imperial handover before most of us were even born.

:00:55.:01:01.

Also tonight, after the riots in Turkey, the Deputy Prime Minister

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says sorry for some of the police behaviour.

:01:03.:01:08.

There is no gas tonight but plenty of jubilation because the

:01:08.:01:14.

protestors in Taksim Square feel they might have made a breakthrough.

:01:14.:01:17.

And this...Sexually Transmitted infection spreading fast. It is not

:01:17.:01:21.

as if we haven't been warned, why are sexually transmitted infections

:01:21.:01:24.

on the rise again. We have one guest who writes about

:01:24.:01:34.
:01:34.:01:38.

sex and one who deals with the consequences of it.

:01:38.:01:44.

Nerve gas has been used in Syria, the confirmation from the French

:01:44.:01:49.

Government came a few hours ago. Who used it and where hasn't been

:01:49.:01:52.

disclosed. But offences perpetrated against civilians and against

:01:52.:01:58.

children marks a new low in a Civil War which has left much of the

:01:58.:02:03.

world aghast, confused and frankly rather paralysed. Our diplomatic

:02:03.:02:08.

editor is here now. First off the French evidence? Well the Foreign

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Minister made this statement this evening that there had been several

:02:12.:02:15.

occasions where they said chemical weapons had been used. One where he

:02:15.:02:20.

said the evidence was strongly that the regime had done it. This is the

:02:20.:02:24.

key point, the direct accusation of the regime. It has not been done by

:02:24.:02:30.

the US and UK before, although they have hinted at it. This is he said

:02:30.:02:35.

later on TV. TRANSLATION: conclusion from the lab is clear,

:02:35.:02:40.

there is sarin gas, well the other question is can we trace who has

:02:40.:02:45.

been using it. In one case there is no doubt it is the Syrian regime

:02:45.:02:51.

and its acomplises. 7 He referred, as I say, to a few

:02:51.:02:56.

incidents, there was some where some Le Monde journalist brought

:02:56.:03:01.

back urine samples by people affected in Damascus. The evidence

:03:01.:03:06.

wasn't so conclusive there. The key evidence seems to be in the north

:03:06.:03:09.

in Idlib province. Interestingly this is an incident the BBC has

:03:09.:03:12.

highlighted before, and has actually shown footage of what was

:03:12.:03:16.

said to have happened there on that day. There was a helicopter passed

:03:16.:03:20.

over and something, it could be a cannister or a rocket was seen to

:03:20.:03:26.

be coming down and then people were badly affected, one died. They were

:03:26.:03:30.

taken to the nearby hospital where blood samples were taken, which we

:03:30.:03:33.

now know were then given to members of the French Intelligence Service

:03:33.:03:38.

a little later. That seems to be the core of the French argument,

:03:38.:03:42.

that this chain of evidence from the helicopter eyewitnesses, people,

:03:42.:03:49.

blood sample its, is what gives them this confidence. But it has to

:03:49.:03:55.

say it doesn't look like an air- tight case. They could not be the

:03:55.:03:59.

same people evacuated as were where the cannister landed. On the face

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of it, it looks like a big deal? clearly is a big deal if you feel

:04:03.:04:06.

the case has been proven. We all know that President Obama made

:04:06.:04:10.

these statements about red lines, warnings to the Syrian Government.

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Then, of course, a few weeks back when these claims of nerve gas use

:04:15.:04:17.

were first being made everybody said what are you going to do about

:04:17.:04:21.

it. The Americans said they didn't feel there was proof positive. And

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indeed tonight the White House spokesman said something similar,

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despite the French claims, that they still don't feel there is

:04:30.:04:33.

definitive proof of the regime doing so. Nobody, even the French

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are claiming that it has been done on anything other than a very small

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scale. All of the statements seem to be trying to set the terms for

:04:43.:04:47.

diplomacy. The French tonight said they are not going to do anything

:04:47.:04:50.

about this, despite their apparent certainty, because they want to

:04:50.:04:55.

empower the called Geneva II peace conference meant to happen in the

:04:55.:04:59.

coming few weeks, rather than scuppering it by taking some sort

:04:59.:05:03.

of action against Syria. The Americans claim a reluctance to get

:05:03.:05:08.

too heavily involved in this, and this is due to their desire to try

:05:08.:05:10.

to empower the diplomacy. This is the Geneva conference about what to

:05:11.:05:15.

do about Syria? It is a Geneva conference where they hope the

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parties will get together and agree a way to end the war and hand power

:05:19.:05:23.

to a transitional Government. UN also produced a report on Syria

:05:23.:05:28.

today didn't it. Parts of it made horrible reading, I thought?

:05:28.:05:32.

independent panel of investigators of human rights abuses on Syria

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made one of its periodic reports, on the chemicals they say they

:05:37.:05:42.

think both sides have used chemicals as weapons. Rather than

:05:42.:05:46.

chemical weapons, if you follow the distinction. They had shocking

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things about human rights abuses. They talked about a 12-year-old boy

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being asked by the rebels to behead a captured soldier. They talked

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about numerous instances of child soldiers on the rebel side. Overall

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they think the greater number of abuses were perpetrated by the

:06:04.:06:11.

regime. They are pushing for this Geneva II process.

:06:11.:06:16.

With us now is Vali Nasr, a member of the foreign advisory board for

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the state department, a Dean of the John Hopkins School of Advanced

:06:23.:06:28.

studies. How serious do you think this French proof of chemical

:06:28.:06:36.

weapons is? It is a way to raise the pressure on the Assad regime

:06:36.:06:40.

and underscore the gravity of the conflict. It is also designed to

:06:40.:06:43.

make sure that the United Nations report does not give a sense that

:06:44.:06:49.

blame for use of the chemicals is equally divided on both sides. This

:06:49.:06:53.

is largely a terrain that has been previously covered, in other words

:06:53.:06:58.

accusations have been made against the Syrian regime. Whether the

:06:58.:07:01.

United States or the international community is not ready or willing

:07:01.:07:05.

to see this as definitive proof and act according to the red lines it

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had laid down. What would your advice be to John Kerry, I know you

:07:10.:07:15.

speak to him frequent on these matters, what would your advice to

:07:15.:07:24.

him be? He has made a -- an of for the to push for a solution to the

:07:24.:07:28.

conflict. There is the Geneva conference scheduled. But actually

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the framework, the basis for it hasn't been done properly. We are

:07:31.:07:35.

going to this conflict with Assad and his Russian backers, Hezbollah

:07:35.:07:40.

and Iran, actually having the upper hand having scored a very clear

:07:40.:07:45.

underground military Vicry in the past two weeks. -- victory in the

:07:45.:07:48.

past two week. We don't have a clear co-ordinated position between

:07:48.:07:51.

the United States, Europe and the Arab allies. Also there is nothing

:07:51.:08:00.

on the table to hint to the Russians and the Assad regime that

:08:00.:08:03.

consequences to failure at the conference and something would

:08:03.:08:08.

happen if they were not to deliver at the conference. We are going

:08:08.:08:11.

into diplomacy without giving it teeth or a big stick to make it

:08:11.:08:15.

succeed. You seem to be suggesting it is very unlikely it will

:08:15.:08:18.

succeed? It will not succeed, largely because there is no

:08:18.:08:22.

incentive for the Russians or Assad to compromise at this point. They

:08:22.:08:26.

are winning on the ground. The rebels have got a setback and there

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is no consequences for not cutting a deal. I think we will go through

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the Geneva II process, it will not be productive. I think that coming

:08:34.:08:37.

out of that we have to basically sit down and think about where do

:08:37.:08:44.

we go from there. I think the path has to be to stop Assad's March on

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the ground by arming the rebels, giving greater capability to hold

:08:48.:08:52.

their positions, also to come up with both incentives and

:08:52.:08:57.

punishments for Russia and Syria if they don't engage in the diplomatic

:08:58.:09:00.

process effectively. I think a certain amount of time has to be

:09:00.:09:05.

invested to get the opposition in a position where it would be much

:09:05.:09:09.

more credible. To create greater harmony between the policies of

:09:09.:09:12.

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Europe and the United States going forward.

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Thank you very much we will get back to you in a moment or two. In

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the meantime we are going to talk about something else.

:09:21.:09:30.

Coming up : Why are diseases like chlamydia and

:09:30.:09:34.

gonorrhoea proving so difficult to beat?

:09:34.:09:37.

Let's continue exploring what is happening in Syria. Because the

:09:37.:09:44.

uprising is often understood as being wholly sectarian. The ma

:09:44.:09:48.

Sunni Muslim population throwing -- majority Sunni population throwing

:09:48.:09:58.

off the Alawite Assad regime. There is a long and complex history, here

:09:58.:10:08.
:10:08.:10:08.

is Mark Urban's analysis. Syria has for centuries been a

:10:08.:10:13.

country of complex relationships between sects, cities and tribes.

:10:13.:10:18.

Often they co-existed peacefully. But at times collided with extreme

:10:18.:10:28.
:10:28.:10:30.

violence. The ottoman Turk ruled for centuries, offering -- the

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ottoman Turk ruled for centuries, offering peace for taxes. Many

:10:36.:10:40.

people ruled on behalf of the ottoman state. It worked well

:10:40.:10:43.

giving the religious communities a say over the sensitive issues of

:10:43.:10:47.

their personal status, how they got married, how they conducted their

:10:47.:10:53.

own laws, but made sure the tax went to the central Government's

:10:53.:10:59.

treasures. That deal between order and tax flow was the heart of the

:11:00.:11:06.

ottoman structure. A traveller in the 19th century noted three tiers

:11:06.:11:10.

of society, mainstream, Sunni Islamists uppermost, other groups,

:11:10.:11:15.

Christians and Jews, and then at the bottom members of the Islamic

:11:15.:11:20.

sects considered her particulars, including the Shia and Alawites.

:11:20.:11:30.
:11:30.:11:39.

Both persecuted they worshiped in The Ottoman say the was by

:11:39.:11:47.

definition a Sunni state and did not recognise any of the other

:11:47.:11:55.

sects as Muslim. They were either Muslim or not. The ones recognised

:11:55.:11:58.

as non-Muslim were Christians and Jews. In a way the Christians and

:11:58.:12:05.

the Jews were better off than the small minority sects.

:12:05.:12:09.

The uglyist rivalries were often those within particular religions.

:12:09.:12:14.

The same traveller found poisonous relations between rival Catholic

:12:14.:12:24.
:12:24.:12:43.

The Ottoman Turk took Syria in the early 16th century. But it had long

:12:43.:12:48.

been a meeting point of different cultures. The Ottoman system of

:12:48.:12:52.

rule of more recent centuries was geared to raising taxes and it was

:12:52.:12:58.

tolerant, indeed non-Muslims paid higher taxes. It left people with

:12:58.:13:04.

an intense sense of their own sect or ethnicity. That was to become a

:13:04.:13:10.

problem as the Ottoman system frayed.

:13:10.:13:15.

Under pressure from Christian countries in the late 1850s the

:13:15.:13:21.

Ottomans introduced measures aimed at giving equality to citizens. But

:13:21.:13:26.

this produced a backlash and terrible anti-Christian riots in

:13:26.:13:31.

Damascus in 1860. They were setting in motion tensions and troubles in

:13:31.:13:36.

the very balance of the social fabric of Damascus that burst into

:13:36.:13:42.

the most horrific violence in the summer of 1860 when Sunni Muslim

:13:42.:13:47.

crowds campaigned through the streets of the Christian quarters,

:13:47.:13:52.

massacring, looting, burning down houses and churches and monastries.

:13:52.:13:56.

The images, the photographs from the time show city quarters really

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that looked much like Dresden after the bombing of the Second World War.

:14:02.:14:08.

It was a moment of communal trauma that was to really mark Damascus in

:14:08.:14:14.

the mid-19th century. By the early 20th century one

:14:14.:14:24.
:14:24.:14:43.

The empire of France covers many continents and many climates.

:14:43.:14:53.
:14:53.:14:54.

Ottoman rule ended in 1919 when the British conquered the area, they

:14:54.:14:58.

handed to the French who faced challenges particularly from the

:14:58.:15:02.

Sunni majority. So the French favoured minorities such as the

:15:02.:15:06.

Alawites, Christians and Druzes in their security forces. The enemy

:15:06.:15:10.

for the French was the Sunni majority population and the idea of

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nationalism. And one of the first things the French tried to do was

:15:13.:15:16.

to break up the greater Syria they inhabited to create a Christian

:15:16.:15:21.

state in Lebanon. Within the mandate of Syria itself, their

:15:21.:15:24.

firgs vision was to create a mini- state for the all -- first vision

:15:25.:15:31.

was to create a mini-state for the Alawites and the Druzes, and

:15:31.:15:35.

territory around Damascus and Aleppo, and through divided rule

:15:35.:15:42.

they could create a a different Syria they could dominate.

:15:42.:15:46.

early post-mandate Governments were sur planted in 1963, military rule

:15:46.:15:51.

by members of the Ba'ath party. This group pan-Arab and secular

:15:51.:15:55.

served as an escalator for the minorities. It already gained a toe

:15:55.:15:59.

hold under the French. The loser of one power struggle among them

:15:59.:16:09.
:16:09.:16:18.

Ahmed Saad's father emerged triumphant from these power

:16:18.:16:22.

struggles to become Syria's first Alawite President. The politic of

:16:22.:16:26.

this time were complex. He faced down Alawite rivals within the

:16:26.:16:32.

party and as well as having some Sunnis and others on his side.

:16:32.:16:37.

Ba'ath party ideology is a very home mojising and strong

:16:37.:16:43.

nationalist -- home mojising and strong nationalist ideology which

:16:43.:16:48.

breaks down the barriers of difference and gives minorities

:16:48.:16:51.

opportunities to get access to power. Some of these minorities

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were also encouraged in the colonial period to enter the army.

:16:55.:17:03.

That is how the Alawites in Syria were very prominent in the army.

:17:03.:17:11.

How the Assad clan and network came to prevent in the Ba'ath Party.

:17:11.:17:14.

But little by little the religious forces polarising across the Middle

:17:14.:17:22.

East were making themselves felt. In 1982 Sunnis in the Syrian city

:17:22.:17:26.

of Hama staged a rising that was brutally crushed. A kind of

:17:26.:17:30.

stability was reimposed and it lasted until the outbreak of the

:17:30.:17:40.

current revolution two years ago. With that game brutal repression,

:17:40.:17:44.

inflammatory rhetoric from some cleric, and an influx of foreign

:17:44.:17:53.

fighters on both sides. Memories of the Ba'athist hey day or

:17:53.:17:58.

cosmopolitan city life under the Ottomans caused many Syrians to

:17:58.:18:00.

insist it is not a sectarian society and this is not a sectarian

:18:00.:18:06.

war. But feelings of identity, of Sunni, Shia, Alawite or Christian

:18:06.:18:11.

are still important for much of the population. And are being played

:18:11.:18:21.

upon in this conflict. To this day the President of Syria will invoke,

:18:21.:18:27.

not his community, but his loyalty to the Syrian nation as what is

:18:27.:18:30.

triefg him in fighting the -- driving him in fighting the

:18:31.:18:34.

opposition. He is acting never in the interest of secretary and

:18:34.:18:38.

community, but to preserve the Syrian state and the people from

:18:38.:18:41.

the threat they face. They are still using that language and they

:18:41.:18:45.

still refuse to accept that secretary has any basis in the

:18:45.:18:50.

fighting going on in Syria today. As Syria's neighbours weigh in they

:18:50.:18:57.

are feeding sectarianism. The saud des and Qatar backing the Sunnis,

:18:57.:19:04.

Hezbollah on the side of Assad. On the ground, their slogan is

:19:04.:19:11.

"find fertile soil". These Sunni fighters mock Hezbollah, party of

:19:11.:19:19.

good, as the party of Satan. -- party of God as the party of Satan.

:19:19.:19:29.

And the rhetoric of Jihad is being spoken of too. Millions have been

:19:29.:19:34.

displaced and the country's delicate tapsity of settlements has

:19:34.:19:44.
:19:44.:19:46.

been ripped apart. We are ajoined by our guests, and one a cousin of

:19:46.:19:51.

Ahmed Saad. His father was widely held responsible for the repression

:19:51.:19:55.

of Hama where it was reported around 20,000 people died. Who do

:19:55.:20:02.

you speak for tonight? For the organisation Democracy and Freedom

:20:02.:20:07.

in Syria. How big is that?We have lots of supporters in Syria. I

:20:07.:20:10.

started the organisation before the Arab Spring, I have been

:20:10.:20:13.

campaigning for democracy for many years. How many members?We have

:20:13.:20:18.

millions of supporters in Syria. Millions, all registered

:20:18.:20:24.

supporters? Sorry.All register supporters? No, we know the

:20:24.:20:29.

supporters have been there for years. Is it your conviction that

:20:29.:20:31.

Syria can survive without collapsing into sectarianism?

:20:31.:20:34.

course, if people, if the international community really

:20:34.:20:39.

wants it and put their efforts together. Trying to you know find a

:20:39.:20:42.

solution, a peaceful solution to the conflict it is possible. Isn't

:20:42.:20:46.

that the problem that the thing was created by the international

:20:46.:20:50.

community and is now being played with by the international community,

:20:50.:20:55.

whether it is the west or Iran or whoever? Actually it is the will of

:20:55.:20:59.

the Syrian people isn't it that's at stake here? Exactly, as we have

:20:59.:21:05.

seen you know the uprise anything Syria has started peacefully. --

:21:05.:21:10.

uprising has been started peacefully in Syria, and hijacked

:21:10.:21:14.

by the Islamists and played by both sides. This is where we are today,

:21:14.:21:19.

we have 100,000 dead people and 1.5 million refugees. We have to find a

:21:19.:21:22.

solution right away. A peaceful solution is the only way out of

:21:22.:21:27.

this conflict. If not we are going to find ourselves in a regional war,

:21:27.:21:30.

all-out regional war. We have already seen what is going on in

:21:30.:21:35.

Lebanon and Iraq. We have seen the latest attack by Israel on Syria.

:21:35.:21:39.

This is very dangerous. Do you think that Syria is going to emerge

:21:39.:21:48.

from this conflict as one country still? Yes, potentially it could.

:21:48.:21:51.

It doesn't mean it will emerge as a happy country where everybody

:21:52.:21:56.

agrees with the outcome. We saw that happen in Iraq as well. It was

:21:56.:22:00.

a vicious sectarian Civil War but in the end it held together.

:22:00.:22:05.

Unfortunately right now Syria is in a place where you have a very

:22:05.:22:12.

serious division that puts one side of the population against the other.

:22:12.:22:16.

There is a sense of Syrian nationalism on both sides, both

:22:16.:22:21.

sides believe they represent Siria. Nobody is a seperatist and don't

:22:21.:22:25.

want to break out of Syria. Those are positive things. But if the

:22:25.:22:28.

fighting continues, more blood is shed and the divisions become

:22:29.:22:32.

deeper. You might at some point have the tipping point where this

:22:32.:22:36.

might become something different. Can you see any circumstances under

:22:36.:22:44.

which Ahmed Saad, he's your uncle. -- Bashar Assad, he's your uncle?

:22:44.:22:48.

My cousin. Do you think there are circumstances he could go without

:22:48.:22:53.

shedding more blood? If he could go he would have gone at the beginning,

:22:53.:22:56.

now it is very difficult. He will not go, he wouldn't be allowed to

:22:56.:23:03.

leave even if he wanted to. What do you mean he wouldn't be allowed to?

:23:04.:23:08.

Bashar al-Assad is not his father, he inherited that regime and didn't

:23:08.:23:13.

build it. The ones him are the ones sustaining the Ba'ath party and the

:23:13.:23:15.

Secret Services and the military, they are in control. A lot of

:23:15.:23:20.

people think it is a one-man show. I have always said it Bashar will

:23:20.:23:24.

always be held responsible because he's the head of the army and

:23:24.:23:29.

President of the Republic and head of the bait party. Behind the

:23:29.:23:34.

scenes the people -- Ba'ath Party, behind the scenes are the people in

:23:34.:23:39.

the military and the others in the Ba'ath Party. When you look at the

:23:39.:23:43.

troubled sectarian history of Syria, you do understand why the Assad

:23:43.:23:51.

regime was so vigorously and violently secular, don't you?

:23:51.:23:55.

Secularism is a facade under which you promote a sectarian regime.

:23:55.:24:00.

Just because you have secularism put out there doesn't mean that

:24:00.:24:04.

people practice it. Sectarianism is not about actually practising

:24:04.:24:08.

religion, it is about when your identity becomes a marker and

:24:08.:24:15.

decides your access to power and access to wealth. As we saw in Iraq,

:24:15.:24:18.

we saw in Syria, there is a division of power in the country

:24:18.:24:25.

that has very much become aligned with a sectarian identity. As the

:24:25.:24:29.

protestors try to change the regime there will be winners and there

:24:29.:24:34.

will be losers. A chunk of the population would see their share of

:24:34.:24:39.

power diminish, and the other chunk of the population on the outside is

:24:39.:24:43.

hopeful it will gain. That process in the Middle East has not been

:24:43.:24:48.

peaceful. The sharing and transfer of power has been con inflicting,

:24:48.:24:51.

that is what is happening in Syria. It is not about Assad. We saw in

:24:52.:24:55.

Iraq that we arrested and executed Saddam, the Sunnis continued to

:24:55.:24:59.

fight. They were not fighting for Saddam, they were fighting for

:24:59.:25:03.

their own power and privilege and fear of retribution by the Shi'ites.

:25:03.:25:06.

You have the same process here as well. You have already indicated

:25:06.:25:09.

you think it Geneva peace conference isn't going to go

:25:09.:25:13.

anywhere. In the meantime, you have got all these external actors like

:25:13.:25:19.

Iran, the gulf state, all manipulating particular factions

:25:19.:25:25.

within Syria, what will happen? is not just that they are

:25:25.:25:31.

manipulating this out of sport. They have vital things at stake in

:25:31.:25:37.

Syria. Depending on which side wins, it will depend on their only

:25:37.:25:40.

internal position and their position in the area. They are

:25:40.:25:44.

fight to go protect themselves. There is potential this will spread

:25:44.:25:48.

beyond Syria before long into Lebanon and Iraq. It will affect

:25:48.:25:53.

the balance of power in the Persian Gulf. As Syria becomes more violent,

:25:53.:25:56.

bloody, chemical weapons could be used. It could lead to a very

:25:56.:25:59.

different language of politics in the region which would not be

:26:00.:26:03.

beneficial to its long running stability or to global security for

:26:03.:26:05.

that matter. Thank you very much both of you

:26:05.:26:13.

indeed. The usual perpetrators of nods and

:26:13.:26:15.

winks in Downing Street were letting it be known today that the

:26:15.:26:19.

Government is going to try to bring in law to make it easier for voters

:26:19.:26:23.

to hold their MPs to account. It has been an urgent priority for

:26:23.:26:29.

years now. That is urgent as in "one fine day" if some other member

:26:30.:26:37.

of this august body gets caught with its trousers down or the hand

:26:37.:26:42.

in the sweetie jar. We're a bit baffled.

:26:42.:26:49.

It is one of those strange coincidences, in 1990 Arnold

:26:49.:26:54.

Schwarzenegger starred in a film called Total Recall, and 13 years

:26:54.:26:58.

later the Governor of California was recalled and Arnie was elected

:26:58.:27:03.

in his place. Perhaps they were reacting to a subliminal link in

:27:03.:27:07.

his words, that, sadly, must be a question for another day. The story

:27:07.:27:11.

for today is the Government has announced it will bring forward its

:27:11.:27:15.

recall legislation next year. The initial enthusiasm for the idea

:27:15.:27:20.

came during the expenses scandal. Rekindled in recent days by the

:27:20.:27:24.

lobbying scandal that has so gripped the head lions. Victory for

:27:24.:27:29.

people power, for those -- Headlines. Victory for people power,

:27:29.:27:33.

for those who believe they should have more control over their

:27:33.:27:36.

representatives. Except it is not clear the Government's version of

:27:36.:27:40.

recall will do any such things. Under the Government's plans as an

:27:40.:27:45.

MP I could join the BNP tomorrow, go on holiday for two years or

:27:45.:27:49.

decide not to turn up in parliament or say to hell with my

:27:49.:27:52.

constituencies, and I wouldn't qualify for recall under the

:27:52.:27:57.

Government's criteria. What people regard as underperformance by an MP

:27:57.:28:01.

this committee would overlook. That is a big point to make. Let's look

:28:01.:28:05.

at how recall works in other parts of the world, like California,

:28:05.:28:11.

let's call it the Total Recall Model. It is initiated by the

:28:11.:28:17.

electorate. There is a petition by them which if it reaches the

:28:17.:28:22.

required total of signatures it triggers a yes or no referendum on

:28:22.:28:26.

whether the politician should lose his or her job. That emphatically

:28:26.:28:30.

is not what the Government is proposing in this country. Their

:28:30.:28:35.

process would not be initiated by the electorate, nor would it

:28:36.:28:41.

feature a "back me or sack me" recall or not straight yes or no

:28:41.:28:51.
:28:51.:28:52.

referendum. What are they proposing? Let's call this skup not

:28:52.:28:58.

quit -- the not quite total recall agenda. Anyone going to prison more

:28:58.:29:02.

than a year alreadyamically loses their seat, or it would be

:29:02.:29:05.

triggered by a resolution of the House of Commons in practice that

:29:05.:29:08.

would mean a resolution by the Standards Committee of MPs who

:29:08.:29:14.

would be making a recommendation. That would striinger a petition in

:29:14.:29:20.

the MP -- trigger a petition in the member's constituency. It would

:29:20.:29:25.

trigger a straight by-election. Zac Goldsmith believes this version of

:29:25.:29:28.

recall is not worthy of the name. If the Government mechanism goes

:29:28.:29:32.

ahead we will see an enormous amount of power being handed to the

:29:32.:29:36.

whips. These committees are made up of people put there by the whips.

:29:37.:29:43.

Independent MPs, maverick MPs won't stand a chance under the Government

:29:43.:29:48.

mechanism. It won't empower the voter but the political hierarchies,

:29:48.:29:53.

the parties. What is the response to these criticisms? As luck would

:29:53.:29:56.

have it, today the Deputy Prime Minister was explaining Zac

:29:57.:30:00.

Goldsmith in the Commons, just why in his view, recall, as it is

:30:00.:30:03.

understood in other countries, wouldn't be right for the UK.

:30:03.:30:07.

we are trying to do and it will be reflected in the final proposals is

:30:07.:30:14.

strike a balance. Is give voters, the public, a backstop reassurance

:30:14.:30:16.

that if someone commits serious wrongdoing and they are not held to

:30:16.:30:23.

account they can be held to account by the public. I equally think we

:30:23.:30:27.

shouldn't introduce a prososal that won a kangaroo court and a

:30:27.:30:35.

political free for all for people to take pot shots at each other.

:30:35.:30:40.

The issue with Californian recall system would it would become the

:30:40.:30:45.

weapon of all minorities. The scope is enormous, there are groups well

:30:45.:30:50.

organised and well sorted they would constantly be trying to

:30:50.:30:54.

remove the member of parliament elected by a large percentage of

:30:54.:30:58.

the electorate within that constituency. Yet this minority of

:30:58.:31:01.

people would be likely it say no, we want them out and our own

:31:02.:31:05.

candidate in. If that is the case wouldn't it have been better for

:31:05.:31:09.

the Government not to have prom my any sort of recall? Personally I

:31:09.:31:14.

think it would, actually. Some believe by promising recall, but

:31:14.:31:17.

actually not allowing voters to initiate the process, well the

:31:17.:31:22.

Government could end up causing more of the disillusion and

:31:22.:31:24.

disconnect with politics that the measure was supposed to address in

:31:24.:31:30.

the first place. Well now we have the report into the trouble in

:31:30.:31:34.

Turkey all wrong, the Turkish Deputy Prime Minister thinks much

:31:34.:31:38.

of the news coverage of the riots there has been overblown and

:31:38.:31:43.

distorted. But he conceded that the Istanbul police force had been out

:31:43.:31:48.

of order and overreacted to early protests which is what set off the

:31:48.:31:54.

unrest. He said the crackdown was wrong and unjust. The protests

:31:54.:32:00.

continued in ernest tonight as the Government tried to get talks going.

:32:00.:32:06.

We are ajoined from isstan pull by Paul Mason. Does it look like it is

:32:06.:32:12.

moving towards compromise? There is fighting going on in two towns in

:32:12.:32:16.

eastern Turkey, including Antakya where a 22-year-old demonstrator

:32:16.:32:20.

was shot dead with a gas cannister to the had had. Here, well you

:32:20.:32:27.

can't really see it behind me but there is jubilation in the park.

:32:27.:32:30.

Probably 10-30,000 people an hour ago when I was down there. They

:32:30.:32:35.

think they have made a breakthrough with the climb-down by the Deputy

:32:36.:32:40.

Prime Minister and the acknowledgement that the initial

:32:40.:32:45.

issue was just and the police overreacted. There is no doubt the

:32:45.:32:48.

Deputy Prime Minister has done that, because he as up against, as you

:32:48.:32:53.

can see in the pictures a large part of the urban middle-class in

:32:53.:32:58.

the city. No Government can survive with its legitimacy intact if it

:32:58.:33:01.

goes up against such a wide cross section of the population. Whether

:33:01.:33:09.

this leads to anything bigger politically is a different question.

:33:09.:33:14.

The people here are resigned to the fact that they are a minority

:33:14.:33:17.

politically. You have spent much of the day with people who belong to

:33:17.:33:21.

the majority in rural Turkey. Is that right? We drove about as far

:33:21.:33:27.

as you can get in a single day from Istanbul and went to the village

:33:27.:33:31.

where there were devout Muslims, a place where the man can't talk to a

:33:31.:33:36.

woman in the street, they bear veils. The people there are strong

:33:36.:33:44.

supporters are -- of the Government. They take their cue from the

:33:44.:33:49.

popular media, they are outraged by those drink anything a mosque that

:33:49.:33:55.

had been turned into a hospital. That has been rebutted by the Imam

:33:55.:33:58.

of the mosque. They don't see that on social media. There were calls

:33:58.:34:04.

for a massive breakdown, the mass base of the AK Party reflects what

:34:04.:34:08.

the deputy PM has done, they know they have to live in the same

:34:08.:34:13.

country as the largely secular urban educated people behind me.

:34:13.:34:20.

What are the protests achieving do you think? They haven't achieved

:34:20.:34:24.

victory yet. I spoke to people down there in the park. One said they

:34:24.:34:29.

were at fault, we ignored politics for too long, we have spoken up now.

:34:29.:34:32.

They said the half of society that is not Islamist is getting together

:34:32.:34:37.

to put forward an agenda that isn't the old agenda of the military, the

:34:37.:34:42.

old military crackdowns and the secular military state that used to

:34:42.:34:47.

run Turkey. There is something new happening here. This is what we saw

:34:47.:34:55.

in Tahrir Square, it is what we saw in the Occupy Movement, it is the

:34:55.:34:57.

urban educated middle-class deciding their agenda. Whatever

:34:57.:35:01.

kind of Government we see them up against in the world, they go on

:35:01.:35:04.

the streets and get some of it achieved. All kicking off

:35:04.:35:09.

everywhere, isn't it, thank you. Safe sex, everyone's at it, aren't

:35:09.:35:14.

they? No, figures are expected to be relyed tomorrow showing

:35:14.:35:19.

significant increases in all sorts of sexually transmitted diseases.

:35:19.:35:23.

It seems whilst everyone has become increasingly aware of the dangers

:35:23.:35:27.

of HIV and AIDS they have forgotten about other infections around for

:35:27.:35:36.

much longer, and whose effects are, it seems, increase league virulant.

:35:36.:35:42.

-- increasingly virulant. Numbers of sexual infections from

:35:42.:35:45.

gonorrhoea to genital warts have been on the rise year on year. Some

:35:45.:35:50.

of it is down to us getting better at testing and diagnosing. But for

:35:50.:35:53.

public health experts the numbers show too many people are putting

:35:53.:35:58.

themselves at risk. So what's going wrong? Last year in particular we

:35:58.:36:03.

saw a 25% increase in gonorrhoea rates, and we think that gonorrhoea

:36:03.:36:07.

will be well up again this year. We expect to see rises in most of the

:36:07.:36:11.

other areas. The rises are particularly in young people of all

:36:11.:36:17.

sexualities and in gay men of all ages. There are definitely some

:36:17.:36:23.

groups more at risk of poor sexual health than others. Gonorrhoea is

:36:23.:36:30.

the second most common sexually transmitted disease. New cases rose

:36:30.:36:35.

to 21,000 jumping 2% in one year last year. Over a third of the

:36:35.:36:39.

cases were men who had sex with men, up from around a quarter in 2010.

:36:39.:36:44.

The big concern is untreatable gonorrhoea. Infections that resist

:36:44.:36:48.

antibiotics. Doctors are having to think of new approaches for the

:36:48.:36:53.

future. Possibly even using more than one antibiotic at a time. This

:36:53.:36:58.

is controversial. At the moment every few years we are changing to

:36:58.:37:03.

a stronger dose or a new type of antibiotic. In recent years we have

:37:03.:37:09.

got to the end of that line in terms of the antibiotics we are

:37:09.:37:14.

using. We are seeing reduced susceptibility when we test the

:37:14.:37:18.

gonorrhoea we grow in the laboratory. We are not seeing main

:37:18.:37:22.

treatment failures, but if the past is anything to go by we will see

:37:22.:37:25.

treatment failures in the future. The message should be a familiar

:37:25.:37:31.

one, that using condoms and going for regular check-ups helps bring

:37:31.:37:36.

down infections and catches them early enough to to not go on to

:37:36.:37:40.

threaten fertility. It is young people under the age of 25 who are

:37:41.:37:44.

experiencing the highest rates of sexual infection. The message about

:37:44.:37:48.

safer sex is not getting through. Many people think sexual infections

:37:48.:37:53.

happen to somebody else. Experts fear an element of complacency,

:37:53.:37:58.

they also say there needs to be a change in emphasis in sex education.

:37:58.:38:01.

Young people aged 24 and under are having half the sex out there, and

:38:01.:38:05.

half of the partner exchange. We need to do better and relationships

:38:05.:38:10.

education with young people. They need to learn not how to put a

:38:10.:38:13.

condom on the banana, but how to have better relationships and how

:38:13.:38:19.

to say I'm not doing that unless you wear a condom and I'm not doing

:38:20.:38:24.

it because I'm not ready yet. Government ads in the past have

:38:24.:38:29.

been pretty full on. Campaigners say what is needed now is not so

:38:29.:38:33.

much this broad brush approach, but local low- based community serves

:38:33.:38:37.

that target clubs, pubs and football matches. This all costs

:38:38.:38:40.

money at a time when local authority budgets are under

:38:40.:38:49.

increasing pressure. Here with us now is my guests.

:38:49.:38:54.

A health service provider and Helen Croydon who described her own

:38:54.:39:00.

sexual escapades with older men and others in her book Sugar Daddy

:39:00.:39:03.

Diaries. Does what was talked about in this report tally with your

:39:03.:39:07.

experience in the clinics? Yes very much so. I think you know I haven't

:39:07.:39:10.

seen the figures coming out tomorrow but I wouldn't be at all

:39:10.:39:14.

surprised if they didn't show an increase. Some of that I would say

:39:14.:39:19.

is down to real efforts to get people diagnosed and tested. So

:39:19.:39:23.

that the national chlamydia screening programme, for example,

:39:23.:39:29.

has been really pushing hard to diagnose all of those young people.

:39:29.:39:35.

One in nine of have chlamydia. may not be that it is increasing

:39:35.:39:38.

but many people are reporting it? It might be people are diagnosing

:39:38.:39:42.

it. With something like clam mid-ia, it is a fairly new programme,

:39:42.:39:46.

running for two or three years now. You have to test about a third of

:39:46.:39:49.

the population that you are targeting to drive down underlying

:39:49.:39:52.

prevalence. They are not there yet. You would see the numbers come up

:39:52.:39:56.

before they start to come down. I'm not being complacent in saying

:39:56.:40:02.

there is no unsafe sex happening. Clearly from that report,

:40:02.:40:05.

anecdotally at least, Helen tell us about this, people's behaviour has

:40:05.:40:10.

changed hasn't it? I don't think it has, actually. I certainly think we

:40:10.:40:14.

are exposed to more sex in the media. The Internet and I certainly

:40:14.:40:18.

think that people are being exposed to it younger. I don't think we're

:40:18.:40:23.

doing it any more than we ever have. We are quite a promiscuous race,

:40:23.:40:28.

you only have to look fill landering through history of

:40:28.:40:37.

Monarchs through history, free love in the 1960s. Sexual behaviour, but

:40:37.:40:44.

sexual hygiene and etiquette, the use of condoms or barrier methods

:40:44.:40:50.

of contraception, protective methods of contraception seems to

:40:50.:40:56.

be changing? I can't speak for more people are using more contra

:40:56.:41:01.

sefptives now. Perhaps they are, if that is the case then definitely we

:41:01.:41:04.

need to do more to get the message through. I don't think the problem

:41:04.:41:08.

lies in the fact that people are having more sex or are more exposed

:41:08.:41:11.

to sex, that has always been the case. It definitely appears the

:41:11.:41:15.

message isn't getting through, we have to look at why. When I grew up,

:41:15.:41:21.

I'm in my 30s now, I know that any sexual encounters I have ever had

:41:21.:41:26.

with people my own age the he have idea that you wouldn't use a condom

:41:26.:41:31.

with a new partner is pretty much unheard of. My age group really

:41:31.:41:35.

have that message drummed in hard. It seems to me when you get to the

:41:35.:41:38.

older generation, I know that from experiences of writing my book

:41:38.:41:43.

about dating older men. There seems to be more people, more men that

:41:43.:41:47.

try and dodge condoms. You said when you were with an older man he

:41:47.:41:51.

didn't want to wear a condom? happened a couple of times. It

:41:51.:41:55.

appears to be happening with younger people as well. You think

:41:55.:42:00.

why is that safe message that got through to my generation and didn't

:42:00.:42:04.

in older generations. What is your they arey from talking to people?

:42:04.:42:09.

think, I hear a variety of things. The big missing piece in the jigsaw

:42:09.:42:13.

is not making all young people have access to good relationships and

:42:13.:42:17.

sex education. So that they are growing up and they understand

:42:17.:42:20.

about having healthy relationships and respect for themselves and

:42:20.:42:24.

their partners and everybody else. That is a big piece of the jigsaw

:42:24.:42:29.

missing. I think also people don't realise that half a million STIs

:42:29.:42:34.

diagnosed, the infections doiing nosed, you are far more likely to

:42:34.:42:38.

bump -- diagnosed, you are far more likely to bump into an infection

:42:38.:42:43.

now if you don't wear condoms that 20 years ago. People in your line

:42:43.:42:46.

of work always talk about people learning to respect themselves and

:42:46.:42:50.

the rest of it. The fact is one night stands are always going to

:42:50.:42:53.

happen, you say there is a bigger pool of potential infection out

:42:53.:42:57.

there than there was. If people are behaving differently and not using

:42:57.:43:01.

condoms, as Helen said they used to take it as a matter of course you

:43:01.:43:05.

would wear a condom, if they are not doing that now what is

:43:05.:43:08.

happening. Why are they behaving like that? I think it is really

:43:08.:43:11.

great. The campaign you were showing earlier, the Government

:43:11.:43:16.

campaign that ran a few years ago it is really good to see those

:43:16.:43:19.

campaigns. That one didn't mention HIV, which you could say is a

:43:19.:43:25.

misopportunity. You have to keep it up. It is no good having the

:43:25.:43:30.

Tombstone campaign, it was 20 years ago, there are a lot of parents out

:43:30.:43:34.

there with teenage children with different perspectives. In those

:43:34.:43:37.

days that campaign you talked about, everybody remembers it, the

:43:38.:43:42.

tombstone falling over and there is a great menace out there, they

:43:42.:43:46.

thought they would die if they got HIV/AIDS.

:43:46.:43:50.

Now things are slightly different. But is it that they don't, because

:43:50.:43:54.

they thought they could have died, they have forgotten about other

:43:54.:43:57.

infections? It is interesting to looking at what happened to

:43:57.:44:00.

infections after that campaign aired. The rates had been steadily

:44:00.:44:05.

rising as they do. That campaign aired and they dropped off a cliff.

:44:05.:44:12.

But they slowly but surely rose again because you can't keep people

:44:12.:44:16.

scared for long periods of time and you shouldn't be. What do you

:44:16.:44:22.

think? I would like men to be willing to wear condoms more full

:44:22.:44:28.

stop. Condoms are the only ones that stops sexually transmitted

:44:28.:44:32.

diseases. It is the only contraception that is detremental,

:44:32.:44:38.

it is alleged, to men's pleasure. All other forms of contraception

:44:38.:44:43.

involves the woman making a sacrifice. Lots of women have a

:44:43.:44:46.

reaction to hormonal contraception. Even in long-term relationships

:44:46.:44:55.

there seems to be a reluctance for men to use condoms full stop.

:44:55.:44:58.

Because they say it affects their pleasure. That is why I think it is

:44:58.:45:01.

really important that we get the message across to women to put

:45:01.:45:05.

their foot down. You talk about sleeping with older men and they

:45:05.:45:11.

were the ones reluctant to use a condom. Maybe they were older men

:45:11.:45:17.

who spent a long married life that started perhaps before the whole

:45:17.:45:21.

AIDS scare and they never got into the habit of it? The last time they

:45:21.:45:24.

used a condom was before they were improved and they were probably

:45:24.:45:29.

right in thinking that it did disrupt their sexual pleasure. But

:45:29.:45:34.

condoms are a lot more than that. I do think as well as educating women

:45:34.:45:39.

and men to use condom, we also need to educate women particularly to be

:45:40.:45:44.

a bit more assertive, particularly because a lot of younger women do

:45:44.:45:50.

sleep with slightly older, even older boyfriends. And they may get

:45:50.:45:54.

a little bit easily led. We just have to let them know it is OK to

:45:54.:45:57.

say no and say go to the sexual health clinic, I'm not sleeping

:45:57.:46:02.

with you until you do. I think a lot of women are scared of doing

:46:02.:46:05.

that. Given how rigorous you are about

:46:05.:46:10.

other things you put in your body it is rather extraordinary, lack of

:46:10.:46:18.

as if todayousness? I think -- as if todayousness I think what we

:46:18.:46:23.

have to do is go to the clinic, if you are going for contraceptives

:46:23.:46:28.

let's offer a range of STI tests as well, so people aren't expected to

:46:28.:46:33.

make two or three different appointments to get different

:46:33.:46:37.

appointments, pull it all together. That is all we have time for

:46:37.:46:47.
:46:47.:46:51.

That is all we have time for tonight. See you tomorrow.

:46:51.:46:55.

Hello again, cloud from the North Sea now. For many central and

:46:55.:46:58.

eastern areas tomorrow starts off grey but the low cloud will thin

:46:58.:47:03.

and lift and get burned back towards the coastal areas. Sunny

:47:03.:47:07.

spells developing widely. One or two showers for Northern Ireland.

:47:07.:47:11.

Belfast dry because of an easterly breeze, the showers to the western

:47:11.:47:14.

side of Northern Ireland. A few more showers in Scotland. Most over

:47:14.:47:19.

the hills and mountains, it may stay dry through the central

:47:19.:47:23.

lowlands. Across England and Wales it will be cooler where the cloud

:47:23.:47:28.

persists around the North Sea coasts from Norfolk northwards. The

:47:28.:47:32.

wind won't be as strong today. While many places will enjoy a good

:47:32.:47:37.

Is Syria using Sarin? Should corrupt MPs be kicked out of Parliament? The latest from Turkey. Why are sexual diseases on the rise? With Jeremy Paxman.


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